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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
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"Ken Davey" wrote My point of view in this is NOT the bring a knife to a gunfight thing but rather the use of a weapon that can cause serious injury in response to a (weapon?) water balloon which, at worst, can damage one's dignity. I do areee that the response of authority was 'over-the-top' and could have been handled better. Without actually being present during the incident we have no way of knowing if the actions and reactions of everybody concerned were appropriate. Regards. Ken. Tell it to a ten year old that is being attacked by five people. If I were her parents, I would say, "Nice aim." Steve |
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"jim rozen" wrote OK, but how do you square that with the 5 to 1 difference in numbers? Do five water balloon throwers equal one rock tosser? Jim Now, Jim, let's analyze this equation from the Kalifornikate liberal bent...... First, five and one are not numbers, but nouns, according to the NEA. Was the rock igneous? Was it sedimentary? Was it conglomerate? What was the velocity of the rock? What was the mass of the rock? What was the energy of the rock, using the recognized formula for computing energy using velocity and mass as variables? What was the trajectory of the rock? What was the intent of the rock? What was the intent of the rock thrower? Were the five individuals related? Were the five rockthrowers documented aliens? Was there any sexual overtones to the incident? What was the color of the water balloon? What was the shape of the water balloon? Was the shape of the balloon actually a phallic symbol? Does the use of a phallic symbol as a weapon by a female imply lesbian tendencies? Was the water tap water, Evian, or distilled water? Was the alleged water used in the alleged incident ever analyzed by the Kalifornikiate Department of Health for biohazards? I could go on for hundreds of lines. Bottom line .......... you act like an idiot, you get smacked in the head. End of case. Well, in 49 states, anyway. Steve |
#43
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"Peter Wiley" wrote Had it been my kid that copped the rock, he woulda copped a kick in the ass to go with it, for being a bully. PDW Whaaa? you'd kick your kid's ass for defending themself? What are you training him/her/it to be, a liberal? Steve |
#44
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On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:43:04 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote: "Ken Davey" wrote My point of view in this is NOT the bring a knife to a gunfight thing but rather the use of a weapon that can cause serious injury in response to a (weapon?) water balloon which, at worst, can damage one's dignity. I do areee that the response of authority was 'over-the-top' and could have been handled better. Without actually being present during the incident we have no way of knowing if the actions and reactions of everybody concerned were appropriate. Regards. Ken. Tell it to a ten year old that is being attacked by five people. If I were her parents, I would say, "Nice aim." Steve Too bad someone wasn't standing by equipped to retaliate in kind, with water from a water jet device capable of pattern cutting armor plate. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
#45
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SteveB wrote:
"jim rozen" wrote OK, but how do you square that with the 5 to 1 difference in numbers? Do five water balloon throwers equal one rock tosser? Jim Now, Jim, let's analyze this equation from the Kalifornikate liberal bent...... First, five and one are not numbers, but nouns, according to the NEA. Was the rock igneous? Was it sedimentary? Was it conglomerate? What was the velocity of the rock? What was the mass of the rock? What was the energy of the rock, using the recognized formula for computing energy using velocity and mass as variables? What was the trajectory of the rock? What was the intent of the rock? What was the intent of the rock thrower? Were the five individuals related? Were the five rockthrowers documented aliens? Was there any sexual overtones to the incident? What was the color of the water balloon? What was the shape of the water balloon? Was the shape of the balloon actually a phallic symbol? Does the use of a phallic symbol as a weapon by a female imply lesbian tendencies? Was the water tap water, Evian, or distilled water? Was the alleged water used in the alleged incident ever analyzed by the Kalifornikiate Department of Health for biohazards? I could go on for hundreds of lines. Bottom line .......... you act like an idiot, you get smacked in the head. End of case. Well, in 49 states, anyway. Steve I move we start a new organization to put an end to this rock violence that has become so common. CERV (Center to End Rock Violence). The damn things are too easily acquired by felons, other criminals, and children! We should immediately pass legislation to have each and every rock be imprinted with a bar code at the moment it is grasped in hand. This would aid the authorities...blah...blah... Good for the girl. Too bad she didn't fire off a couple more, lessons all round. buckshot |
#46
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"michael" wrote Good for the girl. Too bad she didn't fire off a couple more, lessons all round. buckshot I ( especially as being an abused child ) loved the line in Forrest Gump, when he says, "Sometimes, there just aren't enough rocks." She needed four more. Steve |
#47
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In article , Ken Davey
wrote: jim rozen wrote: In article , Ken Davey says... My point of view in this is NOT the bring a knife to a gunfight thing but rather the use of a weapon that can cause serious injury in response to a (weapon?) water balloon which, at worst, can damage one's dignity. OK, but how do you square that with the 5 to 1 difference in numbers? Do five water balloon throwers equal one rock tosser? Jim In a word - NO! Don't think anyone else agrees with you. What, IYO, was she supposed to do? Stay there & cop it? Run off to mummy? Throw her shoes at them? Walk up to one & punch him out? What? Hey. 5 kids started it by throwing water balloons. That was totally unacceptable behaviour. One copped a rock in return. Had it been my kid that copped the rock, he woulda copped a kick in the ass to go with it, for being a bully. PDW |
#48
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Ken Davey wrote:
jim rozen wrote: In article , Ken Davey says... My point of view in this is NOT the bring a knife to a gunfight thing but rather the use of a weapon that can cause serious injury in response to a (weapon?) water balloon which, at worst, can damage one's dignity. OK, but how do you square that with the 5 to 1 difference in numbers? Do five water balloon throwers equal one rock tosser? Jim In a word - NO! Ken. You're thinking analog in a digital situation. Assault and battery, regardless of the weapons involved, is what it is. It's a case of yes/no- was she assaulted and battered? Yes. That's the only line you can draw, and at that point she has the right to defend herself in any fashion she chooses. It's the only way it can be, anything else works to the benefit of the criminals. John |
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I think you need to work on your reading comprehension skills..... PDW In article V3UJe.81360$4o.18197@fed1read06, SteveB wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote Had it been my kid that copped the rock, he woulda copped a kick in the ass to go with it, for being a bully. PDW Whaaa? you'd kick your kid's ass for defending themself? What are you training him/her/it to be, a liberal? Steve |
#51
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In article , Ken Davey
wrote: Peter Wiley wrote: In article , Ken Davey wrote: jim rozen wrote: In article , Ken Davey says... My point of view in this is NOT the bring a knife to a gunfight thing but rather the use of a weapon that can cause serious injury in response to a (weapon?) water balloon which, at worst, can damage one's dignity. OK, but how do you square that with the 5 to 1 difference in numbers? Do five water balloon throwers equal one rock tosser? Jim In a word - NO! Don't think anyone else agrees with you. What, IYO, was she supposed to do? Stay there & cop it? Run off to mummy? Throw her shoes at them? Walk up to one & punch him out? What? Hey. 5 kids started it by throwing water balloons. That was totally unacceptable behaviour. One copped a rock in return. Had it been my kid that copped the rock, he woulda copped a kick in the ass to go with it, for being a bully. PDW Was it unacceptable behavior? Had the girl been 'trolling for trouble' for some time and it was just her turn? You or I were not there so comments like bullying (or the above) from us are meaningless. Was her response reasonable? I don't know because I don't know all the circumstances that led up to the rock. In which case, equally you cannot state that her response was inappropriate, now can you? Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. I guess you have a different definition of 'injure'. Fine. As I said, nobody else agrees with you. Far as I'm concerned, 5 kids pelting one with water bombs *is* an attempt to injure. Just where would you draw the line, Ken? If 5 kids pelting water bombs is ok, how about if they froze them first? Still water, right? I prefer a nice simple rule. Don't throw stuff at other people. If you do, don't complain about the result. PDW |
#52
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"JohnM" wrote You're thinking analog in a digital situation. Assault and battery, regardless of the weapons involved, is what it is. It's a case of yes/no- was she assaulted and battered? Yes. That's the only line you can draw, and at that point she has the right to defend herself in any fashion she chooses. It's the only way it can be, anything else works to the benefit of the criminals. John I believe you just described the liberal American justice system. Made for criminals and not for victims. Steve |
#53
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On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:42:40 -0700, the opaque "Ken Davey"
clearly wrote: Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. Injuries come in degrees. Bullies like the rock recipient always need a few degrees more to understand that their actions are inappropriate. They need to feel the fear/pain they inflict so it becomes real to them. Until then, it's only their ego they feel/know. But groups of kids bullying other single kids have always inflicted emotional damage on the recipients of their ire. That is sometimes much worse than physical pain. YMMV. BTDT with a bully in high school, but instead of fighting back physically, I simply stood there with my arms at my side screaming "OK, if you want to hit me, HIT ME. Otherwise LEAVE ME ALONE." About 60 kids heard me and he just walked away. I lucked out, seein's he had 'bout 8" and 50 pounds on me. No, none of us knows all the facts. Shall we all drop it? -- Impeach 'em ALL! ---------------------------------------------------- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming |
#54
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"Ken Davey" wrote:
Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's do this little experiment, and talk about it afterward. OK? Steve |
#55
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SteveB wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote: Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's do this little experiment, and talk about it afterward. OK? Steve Sure - if you let me hit you in the face with a rock after. Let's see which side of the fence you wake up on. Ken. |
#56
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"Ken Davey" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: "Ken Davey" wrote: Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's do this little experiment, and talk about it afterward. OK? Steve Sure - if you let me hit you in the face with a rock after. Let's see which side of the fence you wake up on. Ken. It's a deal. Only no restriction on how big the water balloon is, how thick the plastic is, or how hard I can throw. If you can get up, or can still see, it will be your turn. Steve |
#57
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"Tom Quackenbush" wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? R, Tom Q. The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. Steve |
#58
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SteveB wrote:
"Tom Quackenbush" wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? R, Tom Q. The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. Steve A baseball bat in the hands of an attacker IS a lethal weapon and as such every jurisdiction that I am aware of (including Canada) allows for lethal force to counter the attack. Ken. |
#59
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"SteveB" wrote in message
news:JVbKe.85139$4o.52569@fed1read06... "Ken Davey" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: "Ken Davey" wrote: Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's do this little experiment, and talk about it afterward. OK? Steve Sure - if you let me hit you in the face with a rock after. Let's see which side of the fence you wake up on. Ken. It's a deal. Only no restriction on how big the water balloon is, how thick the plastic is, or how hard I can throw. If you can get up, or can still see, it will be your turn. Steve Use the "big"one http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3041755. |
#60
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"Ken Davey" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: "Tom Quackenbush" wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? R, Tom Q. The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. Steve A baseball bat in the hands of an attacker IS a lethal weapon and as such every jurisdiction that I am aware of (including Canada) allows for lethal force to counter the attack. Ken. Nice try, Ken, but wrongo. In a court, some smart ass lawyer is gonna ask why you just didn't run away instead of shooting this poor mother's son, who was a promising student at welding school and who had a promising career as a baseball player. And you know, he's right. This poor kid may have been on the way to baseball practice and you misread the situation. Or, yes, he might have been ready to do batting practice with your round melon. In court, they will crucify you unless he has hit you. You MUST exhaust every avenue before you can shoot someone. You must run. You must announce you have a gun. You must order them to back off. You must say if they come closer that you will shoot. If you start shooting, and they haven't touched you, you might as well as pile all your stuff and money in the street and set it on fire with five gallons of gasoline. Because either way, it's gone. Some ambulance chaser is going to spin it towards this poor youth, even though he has a record of 39 arrests. (you can't bring that up in court) And then, he can run off, and call the cops, and you have to prove that you were NOT brandishing a weapon which is a felony, and which you can lose your CCF permit for, if you have one. If you don't have a permit and a registered weapon, you will go to jail for assault with a deadly weapon. It's stupid, but hey, I don't make the rules. Read up on it. The days of the old west are gone when one could defend himself with deadly force. Welcome to the new century of liberalism. It is not a simple thing any more. Are you licensed to carry a gun? Have you ever had training in this area? Steve |
#61
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"Tom Quackenbush" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: Tom Quackenbush wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. I gather that you're speaking tongue-in cheek? Is there a law in California that requires that you respond with an equal level of force? I'd learned that you were allowed to use deadly force in self defense if you were in fear for your life. Civil suits - who knows? R, Tom Q. You are right. But in California, the average person cannot get a permit to carry a weapon. And if you are speaking of defending yourself with that board that happens to be handy, you better damn well have some hefty lumps to prove that you were assaulted. You then have to prove that you attempted to flee and disengage from the confrontation. Then you have to counter the other person's claim that it was mutual combat. In that case neither can be prosecuted and it is one person's word against another. This is usually done by sore losers. Or they file against you, another tactic of sore losers. Unless there are witnesses who don't evaporate and who are willing to put down their phone numbers on easily obtainable police reports for the bad guy to visit, you are hanging there, slowly twisting in the wind. It's all just intellectual masturbation here. What I would do. What is legal. Read the laws. Ask police officers. Investigate the procedures. It's not as cut and dried as you put it out there to be. You can be totally in the right, and still go to jail. Wasn't there an eleven year old girl recently that experienced exactly the same thing? Steve |
#62
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RAM^3 wrote:
"SteveB" wrote in message news:JVbKe.85139$4o.52569@fed1read06... "Ken Davey" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: "Ken Davey" wrote: Bottom line; All things being equal it is NOT appropriate behavior to attempt to injure when no such attempt was directed toward her. Let me smack you really good flat on your face with a water balloon and see if I can injure you. Your nose. Your eyes. Your mouth. Let's do this little experiment, and talk about it afterward. OK? Steve Sure - if you let me hit you in the face with a rock after. Let's see which side of the fence you wake up on. Ken. It's a deal. Only no restriction on how big the water balloon is, how thick the plastic is, or how hard I can throw. If you can get up, or can still see, it will be your turn. Steve Use the "big"one http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3041755. Or http://tinyurl.com/b2jyh |
#63
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"Ken Davey" wrote Or http://tinyurl.com/b2jyh It's only water. You can't get hurt by getting hit by water. Right, Ken? Steve |
#64
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SteveB wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: "Tom Quackenbush" wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? R, Tom Q. The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. Steve A baseball bat in the hands of an attacker IS a lethal weapon and as such every jurisdiction that I am aware of (including Canada) allows for lethal force to counter the attack. Ken. Nice try, Ken, but wrongo. In a court, some smart ass lawyer is gonna ask why you just didn't run away instead of shooting this poor mother's son, who was a promising student at welding school and who had a promising career as a baseball player. And you know, he's right. This poor kid may have been on the way to baseball practice and you misread the situation. Or, yes, he might have been ready to do batting practice with your round melon. In court, they will crucify you unless he has hit you. You MUST exhaust every avenue before you can shoot someone. You must run. You must announce you have a gun. You must order them to back off. You must say if they come closer that you will shoot. If you start shooting, and they haven't touched you, you might as well as pile all your stuff and money in the street and set it on fire with five gallons of gasoline. Because either way, it's gone. Some ambulance chaser is going to spin it towards this poor youth, even though he has a record of 39 arrests. (you can't bring that up in court) And then, he can run off, and call the cops, and you have to prove that you were NOT brandishing a weapon which is a felony, and which you can lose your CCF permit for, if you have one. If you don't have a permit and a registered weapon, you will go to jail for assault with a deadly weapon. It's stupid, but hey, I don't make the rules. Read up on it. The days of the old west are gone when one could defend himself with deadly force. Welcome to the new century of liberalism. It is not a simple thing any more. Are you licensed to carry a gun? Have you ever had training in this area? Steve Steve; Assuming we are all morons who cannot possibly have the smarts and the facts we need to face any threatening situation makes you look the fool (or just a low-grade troll). Ken. |
#65
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SteveB wrote:
"JohnM" wrote You're thinking analog in a digital situation. Assault and battery, regardless of the weapons involved, is what it is. It's a case of yes/no- was she assaulted and battered? Yes. That's the only line you can draw, and at that point she has the right to defend herself in any fashion she chooses. It's the only way it can be, anything else works to the benefit of the criminals. John I believe you just described the liberal American justice system. Made for criminals and not for victims. Steve Yeah, and the courts seem to like their criminals- deprive them of one and they'll do their best to replace him with you.. John |
#66
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"Ken Davey" wrote Steve; Assuming we are all morons who cannot possibly have the smarts and the facts we need to face any threatening situation makes you look the fool (or just a low-grade troll). Ken. Or, one could do as you do and cite opinions rather than facts. And then put down someone who does give you facts. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you with facts. I can see your mind is already pretty made up. Steve |
#67
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SteveB wrote:
"Tom Quackenbush" wrote in message ... SteveB wrote: Tom Quackenbush wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. I gather that you're speaking tongue-in cheek? Is there a law in California that requires that you respond with an equal level of force? I'd learned that you were allowed to use deadly force in self defense if you were in fear for your life. Civil suits - who knows? R, Tom Q. You are right. But in California, the average person cannot get a permit to carry a weapon. Depends on where one happens to reside. Some counties/cities are more reasonable than others. And if you are speaking of defending yourself with that board that happens to be handy, you better damn well have some hefty lumps to prove that you were assaulted. You then have to prove that you attempted to flee and disengage from the confrontation. Then you have to counter the other person's claim that it was mutual combat. In that case neither can be prosecuted and it is one person's word against another. This is usually done by sore losers. Or they file against you, another tactic of sore losers. Unless there are witnesses who don't evaporate and who are willing to put down their phone numbers on easily obtainable police reports for the bad guy to visit, you are hanging there, slowly twisting in the wind. It's all just intellectual masturbation here. What I would do. What is legal. Read the laws. Ask police officers. Investigate the procedures. It's not as cut and dried as you put it out there to be. You can be totally in the right, and still go to jail. Wasn't there an eleven year old girl recently that experienced exactly the same thing? Steve Hypothetically speaking: You have a bat/board/club/knife and come toward me in a threatening manner. You get within 21 feet of me and I draw down and tell you to back off. You keep coming. Guess what? Whatever kind of day you were having, good one, ****ty one, no matter cause it is over. Six to carry you and 12 to deal with me, maybe. Certain actions justify the use of deadly force in response. Attempting assault with a deadly weapon is one of those actions. buckshot BTW According to cops I have talked with, 21 feet is the magic number. |
#68
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In article ,
Tom Quackenbush wrote: If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? Shoot the bat out of his hand and pick it up and use it on him -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
#69
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:20:33 -0700, michael wrote:
Wasn't there an eleven year old girl recently that experienced exactly the same thing? Steve Hypothetically speaking: You have a bat/board/club/knife and come toward me in a threatening manner. You get within 21 feet of me and I draw down and tell you to back off. You keep coming. Guess what? Whatever kind of day you were having, good one, ****ty one, no matter cause it is over. Six to carry you and 12 to deal with me, maybe. Certain actions justify the use of deadly force in response. Attempting assault with a deadly weapon is one of those actions. buckshot BTW According to cops I have talked with, 21 feet is the magic number. ayup..Tuller Drill. Any normal human being inside of 21 feet can get to you with a knife etc and kill you. Hence..the 21' or larger bubble. Hows the dog doing btw? Need more? Ive got another litter with the same parents. 9 of them....damnit. But they are sure cute. I helped deliver them Monday nite of last week. Gunner If you are going to use that phrase then you should use the full phrase of "**** Off and Die and Rot In A Ditch and Get Eaten By Maggots and ****ed On and **** On By a Dysenteric Elephant (but not necessarily in that order)." Crash Street Kidd |
#70
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 02:50:56 GMT, Tom Quackenbush
wrote: SteveB wrote: Tom Quackenbush wrote If someone attacked you with a baseball bat and all you had with which to defend yourself was a pistol, you're not allowed to shoot the guy? The training I received in three CCF classes is that you pretty much have to let them beat the **** out of you, and then the last thing you do before you pass out is start shooting. You either have to be dying, or fear that you will die, and there has to be a substantial threat that you WILL die. That still won't clear you from all legal entanglements and civil lawsuits, but at least you will have some measure of defense. Sad but true. I gather that you're speaking tongue-in cheek? Is there a law in California that requires that you respond with an equal level of force? I'd learned that you were allowed to use deadly force in self defense if you were in fear for your life. Civil suits - who knows? R, Tom Q. Most states (some Eastern Blue states being the exception) have the Reasonable Man criteria. To wit: "Before you are allowed to employ deadly force, you must have reasonable cause to believe that your life or the life of another is in immediate danger" If you are attacked by a 90yr old woman in a walker with a 2x4, its not reasonable to grease her. A 17yr old 200lb varmint with the same 2x4 is fair game. And so forth. Some states, have even looser criteria. The Home Is a Castle rule..anyone found in your home who doesnt belong there is fair game. Anyone found committing any crime on your property after dark is fair game and so forth. And the Florida Make My Day rule. If attacked, the onus is on the attacker and you have no requirement to retreat..which is valid in many other states as well. Some states...again Blue ones...require you to retreat until you are unable to retreat any further, then you may employ deady force. Gunner, 24 yrs with a California CCW If you are going to use that phrase then you should use the full phrase of "**** Off and Die and Rot In A Ditch and Get Eaten By Maggots and ****ed On and **** On By a Dysenteric Elephant (but not necessarily in that order)." Crash Street Kidd |
#71
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On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:29:11 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote: A baseball bat in the hands of an attacker IS a lethal weapon and as such every jurisdiction that I am aware of (including Canada) allows for lethal force to counter the attack. Ken. Nice try, Ken, but wrongo. In a court, some smart ass lawyer is gonna ask why you just didn't run away instead of shooting this poor mother's son, who was a promising student at welding school and who had a promising career as a baseball player. And you know, he's right. This poor kid may have been on the way to baseball practice and you misread the situation. Or, yes, he might have been ready to do batting practice with your round melon. In court, they will crucify you unless he has hit you. You MUST exhaust every avenue before you can shoot someone. You must run. You must announce you have a gun. You must order them to back off. You must say if they come closer that you will shoot. If you start shooting, and they haven't touched you, you might as well as pile all your stuff and money in the street and set it on fire with five gallons of gasoline. Because either way, it's gone. Some ambulance chaser is going to spin it towards this poor youth, even though he has a record of 39 arrests. (you can't bring that up in court) And then, he can run off, and call the cops, and you have to prove that you were NOT brandishing a weapon which is a felony, and which you can lose your CCF permit for, if you have one. If you don't have a permit and a registered weapon, you will go to jail for assault with a deadly weapon. It's stupid, but hey, I don't make the rules. Read up on it. The days of the old west are gone when one could defend himself with deadly force. Welcome to the new century of liberalism. It is not a simple thing any more. Are you licensed to carry a gun? Have you ever had training in this area? Steve..I suspect you have either bad data, or its something unique to your state. Most states do not require you to retreat, no require you to be physically harmed. And yes..I am licensed to carry...24 or so years and a ex cop. Gunner, who lives in a county that has a virtual Shall Issue policy and the largest number of CCW holders per capita in the entire state, and the smallest number of cops per capita. If you are going to use that phrase then you should use the full phrase of "**** Off and Die and Rot In A Ditch and Get Eaten By Maggots and ****ed On and **** On By a Dysenteric Elephant (but not necessarily in that order)." Crash Street Kidd |
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On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:39:37 -0700, the opaque "Ken Davey"
clearly wrote: Use the "big"one http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3041755. Man, what happened to Edmund? Their prices skyrocketed. $22 for a pair of magnets (Uber orbs) ?!? Or http://tinyurl.com/b2jyh 404 error. -- ------------------------------------------------------- Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects. ---- http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications |
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"michael" wrote Hypothetically speaking: You have a bat/board/club/knife and come toward me in a threatening manner. You get within 21 feet of me and I draw down and tell you to back off. You keep coming. Guess what? Whatever kind of day you were having, good one, ****ty one, no matter cause it is over. Six to carry you and 12 to deal with me, maybe. Certain actions justify the use of deadly force in response. Attempting assault with a deadly weapon is one of those actions. buckshot BTW According to cops I have talked with, 21 feet is the magic number. True. But for your end, what is the "12 to deal with me" gonna cost you even if you come out winning? BTW, my daughter and SIL are "cops". Steve |
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"Gunner" wrote Steve..I suspect you have either bad data, or its something unique to your state. Most states do not require you to retreat, no require you to be physically harmed. And yes..I am licensed to carry...24 or so years and a ex cop. Gunner, who lives in a county that has a virtual Shall Issue policy and the largest number of CCW holders per capita in the entire state, and the smallest number of cops per capita. Then if really surprises me that you do not agree that you must take every action you can before shooting. That was drilled into us, and with each successive class I have been to, they have stressed it more. The feeling is, "you might be right, but it is gonna cost you" because of the lawyers who will represent the attacker and portray them in a good light. This does not apply to cut and dried situations where there is little doubt, and very much probable cause. But the gray areas. And some of the other posters make the impression that you just pull out your gun and blaze away. That is all I am trying to convey. Steve |
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Gunner wrote:
Hows the dog doing btw? Need more? Ive got another litter with the same parents. 9 of them....damnit. But they are sure cute. I helped deliver them Monday nite of last week. Gunner If you are going to use that phrase then you should use the full phrase of "**** Off and Die and Rot In A Ditch and Get Eaten By Maggots and ****ed On and **** On By a Dysenteric Elephant (but not necessarily in that order)." Crash Street Kidd You mean the one gaurding the office door at the moment? The one that is as a shadow of my movements? Mr. Buckshot is doing very well, thankyou. Goes everywhere I go unless it is too hot, and I make him stay behind. Speaking of puppies, when will they be ready for pickup? Mid/late September? I will have to verify, but have had a couple requests. One from a nice family with 2 kids, and another from the furniture/cabinet man next door. Nice guy and does very nice work. He would likely make the trip down with me and help relieve you of some Stuff.g email addy is good or post here buckshot & mike |
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SteveB wrote:
"Ken Davey" wrote Steve; Assuming we are all morons who cannot possibly have the smarts and the facts we need to face any threatening situation makes you look the fool (or just a low-grade troll). Ken. Or, one could do as you do and cite opinions rather than facts. And then put down someone who does give you facts. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you with facts. I can see your mind is already pretty made up. Steve Facts eh? Bigger and better water balloons to illustrate the terror of such an attack? Totally false information about California's 'rules of engagement'? (see Gunner's reply down thread) Bah! |
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SteveB wrote:
"michael" wrote Hypothetically speaking: You have a bat/board/club/knife and come toward me in a threatening manner. You get within 21 feet of me and I draw down and tell you to back off. You keep coming. Guess what? Whatever kind of day you were having, good one, ****ty one, no matter cause it is over. Six to carry you and 12 to deal with me, maybe. Certain actions justify the use of deadly force in response. Attempting assault with a deadly weapon is one of those actions. buckshot BTW According to cops I have talked with, 21 feet is the magic number. True. But for your end, what is the "12 to deal with me" gonna cost you even if you come out winning? BTW, my daughter and SIL are "cops". Steve TBD. At least I would be breathing. m |
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On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 21:54:33 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote: "Ken Davey" wrote Or http://tinyurl.com/b2jyh It's only water. You can't get hurt by getting hit by water. Right, Ken? Steve How long do I leave it in the freezer again? Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:11:46 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote Steve..I suspect you have either bad data, or its something unique to your state. Most states do not require you to retreat, no require you to be physically harmed. And yes..I am licensed to carry...24 or so years and a ex cop. Gunner, who lives in a county that has a virtual Shall Issue policy and the largest number of CCW holders per capita in the entire state, and the smallest number of cops per capita. Then if really surprises me that you do not agree that you must take every action you can before shooting. That was drilled into us, and with each successive class I have been to, they have stressed it more. The feeling is, "you might be right, but it is gonna cost you" because of the lawyers who will represent the attacker and portray them in a good light. This does not apply to cut and dried situations where there is little doubt, and very much probable cause. But the gray areas. And some of the other posters make the impression that you just pull out your gun and blaze away. That is all I am trying to convey. Steve Define "you must take every action you can before shooting" If the threat passes the reasonable man test..the actions taken pretty much are : 1. find cover if possible 2. 2 to the chest, evaluate, 1 to the head. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:06:00 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote: "michael" wrote Hypothetically speaking: You have a bat/board/club/knife and come toward me in a threatening manner. You get within 21 feet of me and I draw down and tell you to back off. You keep coming. Guess what? Whatever kind of day you were having, good one, ****ty one, no matter cause it is over. Six to carry you and 12 to deal with me, maybe. Certain actions justify the use of deadly force in response. Attempting assault with a deadly weapon is one of those actions. buckshot BTW According to cops I have talked with, 21 feet is the magic number. True. But for your end, what is the "12 to deal with me" gonna cost you even if you come out winning? BTW, my daughter and SIL are "cops". Steve if its a good shoot on your part..only in Blue areas do you need to worry. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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