erniegalts wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:41:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


On 13 Jul 2003 18:32:51 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Gunner
says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of
motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

That's probably the most important thing an engine can do.

For a non-remote area the most important thing would be
sanitation, water supply (again) and garbage disposal.
A good reason to be out of a populated area where one
could have a) an outhouse, b) a hand-pump well.

Some places water wells are far too deep to be able to operate a hand
pump, while modifying an generator or mechanical pump to run from a
belt drive would not be that hard.


Depends on what sort of pump you envision. A traditional "pitcher
pump" operates on the principle of creating a vacuum in a chamber
controlled by valves.

The water is forced up by atmospheric pressure at STP.

So, roughly, you are talking about a limit on a hand pump at surface
level of perhaps 32 feet or so.

If you want, you can "mechanize" such a hand pump to provide 100, or
1000, or even a million strokes per minute...but you cannot suspend
the laws of physics.


A surface pump is limited, as a practical matter, to 22-24'

A down hole pump is limited by the materials and power available.
A standard oil field pump, using 10 Hp, will lift water at a rate of 10
gallons per minute from @ 2000' with no problem.
A multistage pump, with 100 Hp, will go down to @ 15,000'.
The big boys, with 2000 Hp, lift 1000 gallons/minute from 25,000'.

What's a down hole pump, you ask?
Simple enough, in principle.
Two one way valves and a piston mounted at the bottom of a pipe, with
a vertical reciprocating rod attached to a power source at ground
level running up the center of the pipe.

_______________________________Side of Well_________________________
___________Pipe Wall_____________________________________________
//Piston |2nd
=======ROD======================================== || and / Valve
____________Pipe wall_____________________________||_Valve____|__
_______________________________Side of Well_________________________


Shown horizontally simply to be easier to draw in ASCII :-)

Piston goes down (right), lower valve closes, upper valve opens.
Piston goes up, upper valve closes, lower valve opens, fluid fills
space below piston.
Piston goes down, fluid in space flows above piston.
Piston goes up, lifting fluid above piston, while space refills.
Continue as needed for fluid to reach surface.

At surface, shown vertically:

||
rod Rod is attached to rotating wheel or walking beam to
|| move it up and down.
/||\
/ || \
| || |
| || |
| || |_______
| || ________outlet pipe
| || |
| || |

David Hughes

zeromedic wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:18:37 GMT,
(John Flanagan)
wrote:


Gunner, wouldn't it be easier to convert a gas engine to alcohol and
then just distill your own hooch for it. A reflux distiller can get
195 proof in one run. You can ferment all sorts of trash and boiling
can be done with almost any heat source although heat control is
important for a reflux column.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of
junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.


Been following this thread, and thinking ...

Wouldn't it be cool if you could (electric solenoid) inject steam
into the
sparkplug hole of a 5hp small engine? Maybe trigger solenoid from mag
coil or points. Block off the intake valve and change the cam
timing so the
output valve opened around bottom of stroke.

Even if such a motor produced fractional hp, it could be useful.

zero


Sure, but that's a pretty small hole.
Inject through the intake valve, exhaust through the exhaust, collect
and recirculate the exhaust. You still have to mess with the valving,
but you get a lot more power for the same steam pressure.

David Hughes

Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:18:37 GMT, (John
Flanagan) wrote:


Gunner, wouldn't it be easier to convert a gas engine to alcohol and
then just distill your own hooch for it. A reflux distiller can get
195 proof in one run. You can ferment all sorts of trash and boiling
can be done with almost any heat source although heat control is
important for a reflux column.

John


Interesting idea, if one has sufficent biomass for the fermentation
process. The steam engine idea would burn local wood, from either
trees, deadfalls or buildings.

Excellent idea however, and one Ill look into. What amount of 'trash"
does it take to make enough alcohol to run a Honda Generator a few
hours a day/week?

Gunner

@ 6.5 lbs of Glucose from any source will ferment to produce
@ 1 gallon of 180 proof ethanol.
A minimum of 10,000 B.T.U. will be needed for the distillation
process, unless you can come up with really efficient strain of yeast.
(Better than 12 to 15 % alcohol before the yeast dies from its own
waste products.)
More likely you get only 4 to 6 % alcohol before distillation, so
you'll need 20 to 60 K BTU per gallon of fuel grade alcohol.

Amounts of trash per gallon?
100 lbs. crushed sugar cane
40 to 60 lbs. potato peels treated with diluted sulfuric acid (to
convert the starches to useable sugars by hydrolysis)
10 to 30 pounds spoiled fruit

Take any of these, or a mixture, stir into @ 100 gallons of water
warmed to 75 to 85 F, and add yeast. Ferment, stirring every 3 hours,
for 5 days.
Strain out the big chunks, and distill.

All figures are rough, of course, there are many variables involved.

David Hughes

Bill Janssen wrote in message ...
After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a fun project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Bill K7NOM




The Sept.-Oct. 1978 issue of Popular Machining ran an article about
converting a 2-cylinder York automotive AC compressor to a steam
engine that would deliver 1/2 hp at 1000 rpm on 50 psi steam, they
said this would power a 12V alternator at 30A output. The original
compressor block, crankshaft & pistons were used, with a specially
machined head and a spool valve actuated by an external rod and
eccentric, operated by an extension on the crank. There are no
drawings, apparently they were available separately for $5.00 from the
publisher.
Mike.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:18:49 GMT, Ted Edwards wrote:
jim rozen wrote:

Water, food, sanitation. Probably in that order.
Hand pump, .22 for shooting squirrels, and an outhouse.

No matter how much amo you realistically store, sooner or later you will
run out. Better to learn to shoot a bow. Buy a good one and some
arrows and start practising using it. Also learn how to make a bow and
arrows as a back up. Once you have the skill, you are set for life.
You lnow the old saying, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach him how to fish and you feed him for life."

Better to learn to reload, or how to load and use a muzzleloader. Making
your own BP isn't that difficult, for that matter, nitrating cotton isn't that hard.
Mercuric chloride has a shelf life of centuries, so stockpiling sufficient
priming compound isn't beyond the realm of possibility, but you could fall
back on the flintlock if necessary.

Conserving powder and shot when possible is a good idea, though. I'd
suggest you make a crossbow (should be lots of car springs around
after TEOTWAWKI). More accurate, more powerful, and easier for
someone familiar with firearms to operate. 10 inch carriage bolts make
wonderful quarrels. I made one from Old Chevy Spring, that would shoot
through a concrete block wall with plenty of energy remaining to do damage
on the other side. (don't ask)

Gary

Jon sez:

"I have been thinking about making a solar-powered Stirling engine, in the
several Hp class."

Sorry Jon, but one of our RCM guys has already designed a V-8 steam engine
for a pickup truck - steam generator in the bed, don't you know. He sez it
will make loads of HP so it would put your little Stirlingaling in the
shade. I'm surprised he hasn't weighed in lately.

Bob Swinney


"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...


Gunner wrote:

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.


Another way to go is a Stirling engine. I have been researching this
lately. It seems if you use helium or hydrogen under pressure as the
working fluid, it produces a LOT of power from a small engine.
There are a bunch of different designs around, and some of them
could be made from lawnmower-size engines as the basic frame.
A 90 degree V-twin would make a VERY easy conversion for
one of the Stirling designs. It is almost guaranteed that you
would get more HP out of the same heat input than with a steam
system. One of the things that got me off the steam 'train'
was the feedwater pump. Obviously, not needed for the Stirling.


Jon

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:47:01 -0400, Dave wrote:

Solar is nice, but the cost of the infrastructure to utilize it is
very cost prohibitive, when one considers the numbers of solar banks,
batteries, inverters etc etc one needs to get enough power to do Work.

Compared to your suggested steam engine with the auto
alternator/generator this is an amazing statement. First of all, both of
those setups would need an inverter if you want AC and a battery if you want
to store energy.

Depending on your shopping skills and your scrounging/building skills
(which are typically considerable on this group) you can have a solar setup
for $3.00 to $5.00 per watt. That means for (say) $1,500 you could have
about 400 watts which is about 30 amps at 12 volts. The assumed life of a
solar cell is about 50 years and you don't need any flash boiler, you don't
need to cut any wood, and you don't need any stinking fire. If you are a
survivalist, it also means that you can keep a much lower profile because
there is no noise and no smoke. All that time you would otherwise be using
to scrounge fuel and tend hot, cranky machinery, you could much better use
killing (or planting) food.

I have a dead-simple 100 watt system that runs my yard lights and keeps
by generator battery charged, I typically look at it about once every three
months. Like the Energizer Bunny it just keeps going and going...

Vaughn

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:30:36 GMT, "oktr6r"
wrote:


"Bill Janssen" wrote in message
...

snip

After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a
fun
project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would
prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Alternator or generator? If you use an altenator, you'll need a battery
for
it to start charging. A generator doesn't require one. If you'll include
a
battery, the altenator would be better.

Les

batteries will be around a very long time, even after the sources of
gasoline go away. Every motor vehicle has one, so collecting them
would be easy, charging them is the problem.

A GM altenator with built-in regulator would be simple to wire up. You'd
only need to run 2 wires from it, and hook one from the plug on the
altenator to the BATT terminal on the back. Just need to check & see which
terminal in the plug would need to hook to the BATT terminal. If you need
this info, let me know. I've got one wired up like this & it puts out
14.5VDC at an idle...

Les

"Michael Gray" wrote in message ...
Look in "The Mother Earth News" July-August 1978 for part 1 of a short
series on a solar-powered, self-tracking flash-steam generator.
Compleat plans and instructions in Jan-Feb 1979 for the tracker
set-up.
Still keep hold of my short-run of TMEN, #37 - 92, when they printed
the 'good' stuff.
Mike in BC

(Snip)

http://www.motherearthnews.com/menar...&ID=3932&Num=6

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:32:26 -0500, "David J. Hughes"
wrote:


@ 6.5 lbs of Glucose from any source will ferment to produce
@ 1 gallon of 180 proof ethanol.
A minimum of 10,000 B.T.U. will be needed for the distillation
process, unless you can come up with really efficient strain of yeast.
(Better than 12 to 15 % alcohol before the yeast dies from its own
waste products.)
More likely you get only 4 to 6 % alcohol before distillation, so
you'll need 20 to 60 K BTU per gallon of fuel grade alcohol.

There's a new yeast on the market now that claims you can get 18% to
20% mash strengths, Turbo yeast it's called. And, the wild thing is
that it's supposed to complete fermentation in 2 days! Imagine that,
18 pounds of sugar in 5 gallons water fermenting completely in 2 days
to give you 18% mash. I bet the carboy must dance on the floor it's
so fast.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:52:40 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Of course we were striving for potable booze, so we used cracked corn,
currently $58 a ton, from a local grainary. You could use any plant matter
with a high sugar or starch content. About 200 pounds worth per 55 gallon
barrel of mash.

How did you crack the corn? I thought the term was to mash it?

An alcohol fueled internal combustion engine will normally be much more
fuel efficient than any expedient steam engine and boiler. Lots more portable
per horsepower too. So it makes sense to expend the effort to produce fuel
for it.

A lot more convienient too. Fire up the engine, toast your bread,
switch engine off. Imagine that if you had to fire a boiler up first.


I'm not sure but couldn't you also have a economy of scale with a
smaller more effcient engine for small things like lighting at night
and a larger engine for when you need real power to do something.


John

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So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:51:08 -0500, David Hughes
wrote:

Sure, but ethanol is fairly energy intensive to produce.
For a little more effort in building the equipment, you can do
destructive distillation of wood to produce methanol (wood alcohol),
which will also produce wood gas to help fuel the process, as well as
turpentine and a number of other useful materials.

Sounds like a good point. Do you have any links to any home brew wood
alcohol sites?

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

Is that how those things work! I've always wondered. So that steel
rod you see goes all the way down to the bottom. I assume there's a
limit as to how far down a system like that would work. I guess the
rod at the top is thicker than the rod at the bottom otherwise
eventually the rod would pull apart wouldn't it?

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:04:48 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Better to learn to reload, or how to load and use a muzzleloader. Making
your own BP isn't that difficult, for that matter, nitrating cotton isn't that hard.
Mercuric chloride has a shelf life of centuries, so stockpiling sufficient
priming compound isn't beyond the realm of possibility, but you could fall
back on the flintlock if necessary.

Mercuric chloride can be used as a primary?

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:36:06 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:26:41 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

"Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example
a VW engine, to run on steam?"

That has been done according to a series in that ran "Live Steam Magazine"
several years ago. I believe it was the Barrett VW. It operated on steam
from a flash-type boiler.

Bob Swinney


Thats interesting! I thought Id heard of something along those lines
so brougth it up.

Gunner

Perhaps not the same VW engine setup mentioned above, but this fellow
seems to have done an engine conversion.

http://www.clubvw.org.au/ssssssteam_heat.htm

The problem is his method would seem to involve a bit more precision
machining than might be easily possible, at least at first, after some
major TEOTWAWKI event. By an average person.

I found the reading of this site interesting. It would seem that in
some places, for various reasons, they've converted diesel locomotive
engines to run on steam power.

http://www.messiaen.demon.co.uk/trai...m/modern11.htm

Bob

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:18:37 GMT, (John
Flanagan) wrote:

Gunner, wouldn't it be easier to convert a gas engine to alcohol and
then just distill your own hooch for it. A reflux distiller can get
195 proof in one run. You can ferment all sorts of trash and boiling
can be done with almost any heat source although heat control is
important for a reflux column.

I'm wondering how many Federal and local law hoops you would have to
jump through to legally distill your own alcohol for fuel. It is
against Federal law now to make your own without being licensed by
BATF. I'm sure there are many who will not let that stop them from
doing it but some would want to be in compliance with the law.



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In article , Wayne says...

On 14 Jul 2003 06:59:02 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , erniegalts says...

No matter what type of a "surface pump" the best that can be done is
to create a vacuum so that atmospheric pressure will force water to
the surface from below. 33 feet or so from memory, although if you
want the exact value of suction you could look up the range of
atmospheric pressures in your locality.

Ah. Then all those windmills were pumping shallow
surface water then?


Not hardly. Windmills pull water from what ever depth you need.

Well now we all know that can't be. The poster said that
any kind of pump that gunner made would not work. And that
he was an habitual liar. So it has to be so, eh?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Tom says...

I don't know about the first, 30 bricks of .22s would allow you one
shell a day for more than 40 years.

I think the rule is, once you go hungry for a few days
you tend to be a lot more accurate with that *one* shell
you get to fire, per day!

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner scribed in
:

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions,
does anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common
materials, with minimal machining, steam engine?

hmmmmm. not all that easy without basic machinery. what might be
more useful is a lot of printed materials from the 1850's onwards
which show the early ways of doing it (boring 24" cylinders etc).
at least then you don't have to invent soemthing to do the job all
over again.

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that
would be nice as well.

solar powered flash boiler. how much pressure do you want?
locos with flash boilers favoured around 1800 psi (-;

40 or 50 half-square-meter flat mirrors on 'tripods' (any stand
suitable). aim them by hand at the boiler elements and re-aim every
half hour or so. when you get tired of that, invent a mechanism to
do it for you (small steam engine with governor driving a celestial
telescope mechanism to keep all the mirrors 'pointing at the sun'
will do)

not much sun where you are? get more mirrors. it'll even work at
the poles, same energy density per square meter afaik.

imagine the effect of putting such mirrors in every seat in a
football stadium on the side facing the sun.... then reflecting the
sun at the ref..... (-:

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine,
for example a VW engine, to run on steam?

probably too much friction as the rings are very tight compared to a
steam engine.

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the
least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine
tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that
would be a plus.

all really depends how much water you have. plenty water = flash
boiler and turbine and just waste theexhaust to air (or heat the
house). little water = some other boiler type and multi stage
piston engine with condenser etc etc etc to conserve water.

of course, if you have plenty of flowing water why make steam? just
use the water to turn whatever you want. if you generate
electricity, don't use it to run the lathes etc, lay shaft for that
works well, use electricity for the other things you can't live
without, like internet access....

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\
http://terrapin.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/welcome.html \ /
ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML E-Mail - - - - - - - X
If you receive email saying "Send this to everyone you know," / \
PLEASE pretend you don't know me.

Gunner wrote in message . ..
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner

It's odd how everybody assumes that steam is the way to go when you're
off the line. There's a reason it was replaced for small horsepower
applications in the early 1900s, the boilers tend to go bang if
they're not tended properly, they take up a whole lot of space for the
power you get out of them and they take a lot of maintenance. You
also have to be a dedicated fireman/engine man while it's running, no
going off to do other chores. Great to watch at a fair, though.
Figure out how big a boiler you need for a couple of horsepower,
that's what turned me off the idea. Not to mention the legal
requirements for pressure-vessel testing and such before you can fire
it up.

I'd get a copy of one of those producer gas books that Lindsey sells
and see what I could do to build one of those generators, looks like
it's mostly sheetmetal work that doesn't have to stand a lot of
pressure. Seems to me that a propane-fueled engine like a forklift
engine could be converted pretty easily.

Stan

Stan

And for recreation you could fly your very own steam powered model airplane.
Lindsay sells a book about flash-boiler powered model airplanes. FWIW - I
believe the Langley
which was Wright Bros. closest competitor was steam powered.
Bob Swinney
"DejaVU" wrote in message
...
Gunner scribed in
:

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions,
does anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common
materials, with minimal machining, steam engine?

hmmmmm. not all that easy without basic machinery. what might be
more useful is a lot of printed materials from the 1850's onwards
which show the early ways of doing it (boring 24" cylinders etc).
at least then you don't have to invent soemthing to do the job all
over again.

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that
would be nice as well.

solar powered flash boiler. how much pressure do you want?
locos with flash boilers favoured around 1800 psi (-;

40 or 50 half-square-meter flat mirrors on 'tripods' (any stand
suitable). aim them by hand at the boiler elements and re-aim every
half hour or so. when you get tired of that, invent a mechanism to
do it for you (small steam engine with governor driving a celestial
telescope mechanism to keep all the mirrors 'pointing at the sun'
will do)

not much sun where you are? get more mirrors. it'll even work at
the poles, same energy density per square meter afaik.

imagine the effect of putting such mirrors in every seat in a
football stadium on the side facing the sun.... then reflecting the
sun at the ref..... (-:

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine,
for example a VW engine, to run on steam?

probably too much friction as the rings are very tight compared to a
steam engine.

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the
least) and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine
tools. If it can be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that
would be a plus.

all really depends how much water you have. plenty water = flash
boiler and turbine and just waste theexhaust to air (or heat the
house). little water = some other boiler type and multi stage
piston engine with condenser etc etc etc to conserve water.

of course, if you have plenty of flowing water why make steam? just
use the water to turn whatever you want. if you generate
electricity, don't use it to run the lathes etc, lay shaft for that
works well, use electricity for the other things you can't live
without, like internet access....

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\
http://terrapin.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/welcome.html \ /
ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML E-Mail - - - - - - - X
If you receive email saying "Send this to everyone you know," / \
PLEASE pretend you don't know me.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:09:54 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote:
How did you crack the corn? I thought the term was to mash it?

We bought it already cracked (coarse ground). The mash is the mixture of water
and the cracked grain. You gently cook that to convert the starches to sugars,
then drain off the liquid, full of dissolved sugar, and ferment that. You can start
the fermentation in the mash, that gives the distinctive sour mash flavor. But if
you're shooting for maximum alcohol content, you just use the sugar water you
produced, and feed the cooked cracked grain to the hogs. They'll mask the
smell.

Gary

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:17:16 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote:
Is that how those things work! I've always wondered. So that steel
rod you see goes all the way down to the bottom. I assume there's a
limit as to how far down a system like that would work. I guess the
rod at the top is thicker than the rod at the bottom otherwise
eventually the rod would pull apart wouldn't it?

I don't know about the really deep wells, but the average 2300 foot
depth wells around here use sucker rods that are the same size
all the way down. You can get an idea of how heavy it all is by looking
at the weights which counterbalance it on the other end of the walking
beam. It is all nicely counterbalanced so the pump motor doesn't have
to lift the weight of the rod on each stroke. BTW the rods screw together
from 20 or 30 foot sections, they aren't all one piece. That would make
it awfully hard to get them in or out of the well.

Gary

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:04:37 -0400, Tom Quackenbush wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:04:48 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

SNIP

Conserving powder and shot when possible is a good idea, though. I'd
suggest you make a crossbow (should be lots of car springs around
after TEOTWAWKI). More accurate, more powerful, and easier for
someone familiar with firearms to operate. 10 inch carriage bolts make
wonderful quarrels. I made one from Old Chevy Spring, that would shoot
through a concrete block wall with plenty of energy remaining to do damage
on the other side. (don't ask)

Gary
I've got an old Popular Mechanics DIY encyclopedia with plans for
both wood & steel crossbows. If recall correctly, the leaf spring
model was 300 lb pull!

Did you need some sort of mechanical advantage (lever, windlass, ?)
to draw yours?

Not for the single leaf spring (out of the stack of leaves) model. But I
did make one using a truck spring which required a boat winch to cock.
That thing was more an artillery piece than something you'd carry in the
woods, though.

Gary

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:19:12 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:04:48 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Better to learn to reload, or how to load and use a muzzleloader. Making
your own BP isn't that difficult, for that matter, nitrating cotton isn't that hard.
Mercuric chloride has a shelf life of centuries, so stockpiling sufficient
priming compound isn't beyond the realm of possibility, but you could fall
back on the flintlock if necessary.

Mercuric chloride can be used as a primary?

I may be mixing up the chemistry of the mercuric and chlorate primer
mixtures. But either one has proven to have an incredibly long storage
life. I've fired ammo loaded for WWI, and it still works just fine.

Gary

In article ,
says...

... and feed the cooked cracked grain to the hogs. They'll mask the
smell.

(!)

Where did you grow up, anyway, Gary?
First it's exploding CO2 cartidges.
Then it's artillery-sized crossbows.

Now this. How to keep the revenue agents
in the dark...

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
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==================================================

John Flanagan wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:32:26 -0500, "David J. Hughes"
wrote:



@ 6.5 lbs of Glucose from any source will ferment to produce
@ 1 gallon of 180 proof ethanol.
A minimum of 10,000 B.T.U. will be needed for the distillation
process, unless you can come up with really efficient strain of yeast.
(Better than 12 to 15 % alcohol before the yeast dies from its own
waste products.)
More likely you get only 4 to 6 % alcohol before distillation, so
you'll need 20 to 60 K BTU per gallon of fuel grade alcohol.


There's a new yeast on the market now that claims you can get 18% to
20% mash strengths, Turbo yeast it's called. And, the wild thing is
that it's supposed to complete fermentation in 2 days! Imagine that,
18 pounds of sugar in 5 gallons water fermenting completely in 2 days
to give you 18% mash. I bet the carboy must dance on the floor it's
so fast.

John

http://www.turbo-yeast.com/

Gets those results using pure sugar syrup and very precise temperature
controls.
I doubt it would work as quickly in a trash material "wort" or "Mash".
But it does appear to be a high alcohol tolerant yeast, so could
produce higher concentrations of alcohol over a few weeks, which would
reduce the distillation energy demands.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:15:08 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

I don't know about the really deep wells, but the average 2300 foot
depth wells around here use sucker rods that are the same size
all the way down. You can get an idea of how heavy it all is by looking
at the weights which counterbalance it on the other end of the walking
beam. It is all nicely counterbalanced so the pump motor doesn't have
to lift the weight of the rod on each stroke. BTW the rods screw together
from 20 or 30 foot sections, they aren't all one piece. That would make
it awfully hard to get them in or out of the well.

I figured as much. I find this drilling stuff interesting. I forget
who but someone was recalling some story about droping a wrench
"downhole". I never thought of that before. These deep holes it'd
probably take five minutes for it to hit bottom. I can't imagine what
it'd take to get it back out, big magnet and a long string....

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

John Flanagan wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:51:08 -0500, David Hughes
wrote:


Sure, but ethanol is fairly energy intensive to produce.
For a little more effort in building the equipment, you can do
destructive distillation of wood to produce methanol (wood alcohol),
which will also produce wood gas to help fuel the process, as well as
turpentine and a number of other useful materials.


Sounds like a good point. Do you have any links to any home brew wood
alcohol sites?

John

I doubt there are many such sites, it's not a typical home project.
But the technology is several hundred years old.

Get a large metal container, say an open top 55 gallon drum with top
and sealing clamp, (Preferably stainless steel, it will last longer)
Pack it loosely with reasonably dry vegetable matter (grass clippings,
twigs, branches less than 1" in diameter, leaves, garden waste, etc.)
Clamp on top. Attach 2" vent pipe to the drum bung, plumb off to
distillation column. It's important to have a good air seal, so that
air can't get into the drum except through the vent and distillation
column.
Heat drum by any means handy (Big solar mirror array, bonfire, whatever.)
See:
http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/JCESoft...WOOD/MOVIE.HTM

for the basic chemistry.

As the drum heats, various liquid products (acetic acid, acetone, and
wood alcohol, Turpentine if you are using resinous pine) will be
distilled, mostly as a mixture, which can be collected and later
fractionally distilled to separate the various components. (Or a more
complex column can be used to separate them on the first run).
As the heating continues, high concentration carbon monoxide is
produced, which can be used directly as "wood gas".
After all the volitiles and partial combustion products have been
removes, the cool drum can be opened, and the charcoal residue can be
removed and used for fuel in in your forge :-)

David Hughes

John Flanagan wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:52:40 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:


Of course we were striving for potable booze, so we used cracked corn,
currently $58 a ton, from a local grainary. You could use any plant matter
with a high sugar or starch content. About 200 pounds worth per 55 gallon
barrel of mash.


How did you crack the corn? I thought the term was to mash it?


You buy it cracked, it's sold that way for animal feed.
Then you "mash" it, which doesn't mean crushing it, but soaking it in
warm water so the kernels expand and release the enzymes that convert
the starches to fermentable sugars.


An alcohol fueled internal combustion engine will normally be much more
fuel efficient than any expedient steam engine and boiler. Lots more portable
per horsepower too. So it makes sense to expend the effort to produce fuel
for it.


A lot more convienient too. Fire up the engine, toast your bread,
switch engine off. Imagine that if you had to fire a boiler up first.


I'm not sure but couldn't you also have a economy of scale with a
smaller more effcient engine for small things like lighting at night
and a larger engine for when you need real power to do something.


John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:47:41 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

Gunner sez: "How hard would it be to make a solar flash boiler, for those
of us in
the Southwest/South?"

Boiler? Easy. Solar collector to track the sun - nigh on to impossible!

But wait - there is more. Heard today some folks are driving coast-to-coast
on solar/electric powered autos. One of them averages around 40 mph. I
wonder how much of the collected electric goes to run the AC?

Bob Swinney

Try redrok.com . Somewhere is a huge data base like RCM drop box of
alt. energy.

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:44:39 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could
be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or
methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.


Gunner

Randy

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts?
Paranoid.-William
Burroughs


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs

John Flanagan wrote:
Is that how those things work! I've always wondered. So that steel
rod you see goes all the way down to the bottom. I assume there's a
limit as to how far down a system like that would work. I guess the
rod at the top is thicker than the rod at the bottom otherwise
eventually the rod would pull apart wouldn't it?

John


1" steel or fiberglass "sucker rods" are good for the first mile or so.

Remember that the rod is lifting column of fluid as deep as the well.
which puts far more strain on the rod than weight of the rod itself .
Making it thinner at the bottom doesn't solve this problem, actually
make it worse.

In REALLY deep wells, you use multi stage pumps, where the lowest pump
lifts the fluid the first mile, and feeds it into a second pump
(powered by a second rod) to lift the next mile, and so on until you
reach the surface.

John Flanagan wrote:
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:15:08 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:


I don't know about the really deep wells, but the average 2300 foot
depth wells around here use sucker rods that are the same size
all the way down. You can get an idea of how heavy it all is by looking
at the weights which counterbalance it on the other end of the walking
beam. It is all nicely counterbalanced so the pump motor doesn't have
to lift the weight of the rod on each stroke. BTW the rods screw together

from 20 or 30 foot sections, they aren't all one piece. That would make

it awfully hard to get them in or out of the well.


I figured as much. I find this drilling stuff interesting. I forget
who but someone was recalling some story about droping a wrench
"downhole". I never thought of that before. These deep holes it'd
probably take five minutes for it to hit bottom. I can't imagine what
it'd take to get it back out, big magnet and a long string....

John


There's an entire industry based on "fishing" stuff out of a well.
Drill bits come loose or get stuck, other tools come loose from the
"drill string" and fall until they get stuck or reach the bottom,
random debris, etc.
Some finished wells leave a "basket" at the bottom which they can
retrieve to keep the little stuff from piling up at the bottom.

NOT a cheap process. Modern wells can cost a million dollars a day
during drilling (that's just the cost of all the people and equipment
sitting idle, more if actually in use!)
I personally know of a case when a drill operator messed up while
extracting a (expensive) tool from a well, and tore it free from the
"drill string" just below the rig floor (that's the main platform of
the rig, about 30' up) The tool fell all the way to the bottom
(26,000'), blocking the bottom of the well, which still needed to be
drilled deeper. They lowered and "investigation fish" which mounts a
camera down, took a look, came back up, sent down a milling head to
grind off the jagged end of the drill string, came back up, sent down
a "radial fish" (basically a big screw extractor) which grabbed the
end of the drill string, and brought the tool out.

The site foreman was less than pleased with the operator G

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:12:51 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner

When I was a kid I made a 3.5 hp B&S into a steam engine. Pretty
easy. Dissassemble the engine, yank out the camshaft, weld lobes on
the back side of each cam, take the shaft to the belly grinder and
clean it up. Square it up some mroe with a file. Re-assemble. Ditch
the Carb and exhaust. I think I may have put the intake in the
exhaust port (it was allready threaded nice for a pipe nipple). It
ran ok off the air compressor, can't remember what pressure, wasn't
much as I just held the air gun in the intake pipe and wrapped my
glove around it to make it seal well enough to run.. Would have run
better with an additional flywheel to carry it from one cycle to the
next. It ran though, and didn't take much.

Funny thing is a couple years later I was fixing an engine for my
go-kart, it had a busted cam. The only engine I had sitting around
with a cam that would fit was the one in my steam engine........ I
wasn't old enough to drive so I didn't have any other recourse. Yup,
pulled the shaft, ground off my built up lobes, filed them clean. Bit
of emmery cloth and the cam was in my engine. thought it might tear
up the followers, but the thing ran fine for years. Think I still got
it somewhere.

Dave

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:12:51 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner

Better yet, forget about steam and modify a few bicycles to turn your
generators. Then start breeding your power.

Dave

On 14 Jul 2003 06:59:02 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , erniegalts says...

No matter what type of a "surface pump" the best that can be done is
to create a vacuum so that atmospheric pressure will force water to
the surface from below. 33 feet or so from memory, although if you
want the exact value of suction you could look up the range of
atmospheric pressures in your locality.

Ah. Then all those windmills were pumping shallow
surface water then?

Jim

================================================= =
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
================================================= =

Not necisarily, If I understand some of them ran a sucker rod down to
the pump wich was mounted down the shaft, so no real problem with a
deep well so long as you put ypur pump down there too.

Dave

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:15:11 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:19:12 GMT, (John Flanagan) wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:04:48 GMT, (Gary Coffman)
wrote:

Better to learn to reload, or how to load and use a muzzleloader. Making
your own BP isn't that difficult, for that matter, nitrating cotton isn't that hard.
Mercuric chloride has a shelf life of centuries, so stockpiling sufficient
priming compound isn't beyond the realm of possibility, but you could fall
back on the flintlock if necessary.

Mercuric chloride can be used as a primary?

I may be mixing up the chemistry of the mercuric and chlorate primer
mixtures. But either one has proven to have an incredibly long storage
life. I've fired ammo loaded for WWI, and it still works just fine.

Gary

Sure smells funny though.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"David L Peterson" wrote in message
...
Better yet, forget about steam and modify a few bicycles to turn your
generators. Then start breeding your power.

Hey, sounds like fun to me :P

Tim

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:10:25 GMT, (John
Flanagan) wrote:

snip
Yes, the website that I posted the url for talks about this. I forget
if it's a one time application fee or if you have to pay yearly.
Personally I don't think the federal government has the right to
regulate it :^). IIRC those laws didn't exist before prohibition, but
were left on the books after it's repeal. Probably for tax reasons.
I talked to the ABC board, or was it the ATF?, a few years ago about
this issue. The person I talked to me said that it was even illegal
to distill *water*! I couldn't believe that though it may be true.

Sheesh.


I don't have your post with a distilling link yet, maybe it was
http://homedistiller.org/ ?

If, from there, you follow the Introduction/Legality/USA link it has
reference there to this site about the production of ethanol for motor
fuel:

http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/ethanol.htm

and that will get you a lot of info on the legality and economics of
making ethanol for engine fuel. It will explain the magnanimous
gestures made by a kinder, friendlier BATF to let smaller producers of
alcohol avoid midnight raid by BATF swat teams.



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DejaVU scribed in
:

Gunner scribed in
:

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions,
does anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common
materials, with minimal machining, steam engine?

well now, reading a computer publication today i came across another
energy source...... methane.
seems in some remote spot of Africa a computer center is being run
for 5 hours day on the methane from the **** of the 1000 students who
use the computers. all collects in a vessel and the gas is bled off.
20000 watt hours per day worth.....

now, what will methane run for us? modified internal combustion
engine (as for propane?) is probabyl the most efficient. can heat
the house and cool the fridge with it too.

and wherever you are, there is ****..... a secure source of raw
material....

swarf, steam and wind

--
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