A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

Gunner wrote:
snip
A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?
snip

Gunner, serious answer.

If the sh3t *really hits* the fan, the best use for "steam" will be
boiling water. To drink, and to cook. Wood fire

Fun.recreation.survival dot com will not exist. Grow yer own BBQ
beans and weenies.

half Sh4t hits the fan, my time would be best spent not stoking some
gizmo steamer motor.

I hear the sun plants energy, free for the taking

just a rumor

~Dave

"Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example
a VW engine, to run on steam?"

That has been done according to a series in that ran "Live Steam Magazine"
several years ago. I believe it was the Barrett VW. It operated on steam
from a flash-type boiler.

Bob Swinney






"Gunner" wrote in message
...
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.


Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.
Randy

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs

In article , R. Zimmerman wrote:

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.

Better to use a diesel and run it on vegetable oil. Relatively easy to
come up with.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Mike Graham | Metalworker, rustic, part-time zealot.
|
http://www.metalmangler.com| Caledon, Ontario, Canada

In article , Gunner says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

That's probably the most important thing an engine can do.

For a non-remote area the most important thing would be
sanitation, water supply (again) and garbage disposal.
A good reason to be out of a populated area where one
could have a) an outhouse, b) a hand-pump well.

If you really wanted to stay connected to civilization
then one of those wind-up battery radios would be a
nice touch. Honestly I don't think an engine would
be of much use unless one were in a large agricultural
setting and most of those tended to be large cast iron
single-jug hit and miss types. Simple, reliable, belt
drive for all the machines.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Gunner wrote:

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a fun project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Bill K7NOM

"Bill Janssen" wrote in message
...

snip

After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a fun
project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would
prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Alternator or generator? If you use an altenator, you'll need a battery for
it to start charging. A generator doesn't require one. If you'll include a
battery, the altenator would be better.

Les

A couple thoughts:

Best simple design I've seen was right at the beginning of "The
Boy Mechanic" Vol. 1 of 19 aught something... Can't locate that
particular pile of books at the moment...
It consists of a twin cylinder affair that looks a lot like a two
stroke gas engine and would - I think - later come to be known as a
"uniflow" set up. No crossheads here, just connecting rods and wrist
pins in long pistons turned to fit bored out pipes. No eccentrics
either, just a couple of cams with spring loaded followers. Real easy
to make. The followers lift the conical valves in the steam chest to
admit steam. The cylinders have large ports in their sides to let the
steam out at the bottom of their travel, just like a two-stroke gas
engine. Think flathead two stroke and you'll have the flavor of it. I
think Lindsay has reprinted the Boy Mechanic if I'm not mistaken.
The real trick would be getting some kind of decent boiler. I'd
opt for a dry back scotch marine sort of thing because maybe you
wouldn't need a whole lot of staybolts and I'm betting that in the post
nuke world tubes might still be relatively easy to find.
I suppose it really does depend on what you'd find...Maybe if you
scored a bunch of wire and lots of small tubes you would find yourself
constructing a simple verticle fire tube affair wound about with wire
like the Stanley steamer boilers. You might get yourself quite a few
pounds of pressure that way.
I'd make boiler feed pumps and check valves using the steel balls
from larger trashed ball bearings.
Ever read John Goffe's Mill (sp?) or "The Story of a Stanley
Steamer" by George Woodberry?
Probably in the event of a real mess, I'd attempt to get back to
my friends in Northern New Hampshire who have a lot of steam stuff
hanging around. There are still a number of reciprocating steam plants
hanging around up that way.
No, that's unrealistic, last thing you could do would be to
travel...
I strongly suspect that those on the edges of the once industrial
areas of the country would fare better. It's surprising what doesn't
exist here in Virginia and what remains in northern New Hampshire and
Maine.
Another book/ pamphlet around here that might come in handy was
written by the father of a blacksmith friend. He was an engineer who
worked for the U.N. and taught folks in Africa how to make simple
tools and such from the materials you might find in a railroad
scrapyard.
It's interesting that you ask this question as I've often thought
about it...My mom grew up in Hartford Connecticut and had friends
burned in the great circus fire there. "Always, always, always, look
for the exits," she still says.

--
Chas M

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:47:01 -0400, Dave wrote:



Gunner wrote:
snip
A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?
snip

Gunner, serious answer.

If the sh3t *really hits* the fan, the best use for "steam" will be
boiling water. To drink, and to cook. Wood fire

Fun.recreation.survival dot com will not exist. Grow yer own BBQ
beans and weenies.

half Sh4t hits the fan, my time would be best spent not stoking some
gizmo steamer motor.

I hear the sun plants energy, free for the taking

just a rumor

~Dave

Most of the folks I run with, in the Survival community, have long
term food/shelter/lighting etc etc already, and many are nearly self
sufficient.

A growing season is only so long, and the ability to pump water, run a
belt driven saw, drill press, lathe etc would be mighty handy to have.
Saving gasoline for vehicles, when one has wood, or solar (flash
boiler) and operating a steam engine makes a lot of sense.

The question was posed, so a guy could make up an engine before hand,
and have it ready, or to use it as a fun "thing" at other times.

Solar is nice, but the cost of the infrastructure to utilize it is
very cost prohibitive, when one considers the numbers of solar banks,
batteries, inverters etc etc one needs to get enough power to do Work.

Some of the folks already have water power, windmills etc but steam
would be a nice addition to those whom do not, for a long period of
time. Lumber or wood would be fairly easy to come by, as scrap for
fuel. A wood gas engine is another option, but they are also a
maintainence hog as well.

Gunner


Gunner


Most
"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:26:41 GMT, "Bob Swinney"
wrote:

"Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example
a VW engine, to run on steam?"

That has been done according to a series in that ran "Live Steam Magazine"
several years ago. I believe it was the Barrett VW. It operated on steam
from a flash-type boiler.

Bob Swinney


Thats interesting! I thought Id heard of something along those lines
so brougth it up.

Gunner






"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.


Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:44:39 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.

How hard would it be to make a solar flash boiler, for those of us in
the Southwest/South?

Gunner

Randy

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On 13 Jul 2003 18:32:51 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

That's probably the most important thing an engine can do.

For a non-remote area the most important thing would be
sanitation, water supply (again) and garbage disposal.
A good reason to be out of a populated area where one
could have a) an outhouse, b) a hand-pump well.

Some places water wells are far too deep to be able to operate a hand
pump, while modifying an generator or mechanical pump to run from a
belt drive would not be that hard.

If you really wanted to stay connected to civilization
then one of those wind-up battery radios would be a
nice touch. Honestly I don't think an engine would
be of much use unless one were in a large agricultural
setting and most of those tended to be large cast iron
single-jug hit and miss types. Simple, reliable, belt
drive for all the machines.

Jim

Its not a matter of staying connected, but the ability to run tools by
either electrical generation or belt drive thats important.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:15:36 GMT, Bill Janssen wrote:

Gunner wrote:

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a fun project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Bill K7NOM

It would be a fun project, hence the G in the title.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:30:36 GMT, "oktr6r"
wrote:


"Bill Janssen" wrote in message
...

snip

After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a fun
project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would
prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Alternator or generator? If you use an altenator, you'll need a battery for
it to start charging. A generator doesn't require one. If you'll include a
battery, the altenator would be better.

Les

batteries will be around a very long time, even after the sources of
gasoline go away. Every motor vehicle has one, so collecting them
would be easy, charging them is the problem.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:41:54 GMT, Charles Morrill
wrote:

A couple thoughts:

Best simple design I've seen was right at the beginning of "The
Boy Mechanic" Vol. 1 of 19 aught something... Can't locate that
particular pile of books at the moment...
It consists of a twin cylinder affair that looks a lot like a two
stroke gas engine and would - I think - later come to be known as a
"uniflow" set up. No crossheads here, just connecting rods and wrist
pins in long pistons turned to fit bored out pipes. No eccentrics
either, just a couple of cams with spring loaded followers. Real easy
to make. The followers lift the conical valves in the steam chest to
admit steam. The cylinders have large ports in their sides to let the
steam out at the bottom of their travel, just like a two-stroke gas
engine. Think flathead two stroke and you'll have the flavor of it. I
think Lindsay has reprinted the Boy Mechanic if I'm not mistaken.
The real trick would be getting some kind of decent boiler. I'd
opt for a dry back scotch marine sort of thing because maybe you
wouldn't need a whole lot of staybolts and I'm betting that in the post
nuke world tubes might still be relatively easy to find.
I suppose it really does depend on what you'd find...Maybe if you
scored a bunch of wire and lots of small tubes you would find yourself
constructing a simple verticle fire tube affair wound about with wire
like the Stanley steamer boilers. You might get yourself quite a few
pounds of pressure that way.
I'd make boiler feed pumps and check valves using the steel balls
from larger trashed ball bearings.
Ever read John Goffe's Mill (sp?) or "The Story of a Stanley
Steamer" by George Woodberry?
Probably in the event of a real mess, I'd attempt to get back to
my friends in Northern New Hampshire who have a lot of steam stuff
hanging around. There are still a number of reciprocating steam plants
hanging around up that way.
No, that's unrealistic, last thing you could do would be to
travel...

Not necessarily, if your location becomes unsafe, or the resources are
limited. The idea of course is to be able to run "stuff" after a
disaster occurs, weeks or months after, if the utilities are not going
to come back on anytime soon, or for those whom live off the grid.

I strongly suspect that those on the edges of the once industrial
areas of the country would fare better. It's surprising what doesn't
exist here in Virginia and what remains in northern New Hampshire and
Maine.
Another book/ pamphlet around here that might come in handy was
written by the father of a blacksmith friend. He was an engineer who
worked for the U.N. and taught folks in Africa how to make simple
tools and such from the materials you might find in a railroad
scrapyard.
It's interesting that you ask this question as I've often thought
about it...My mom grew up in Hartford Connecticut and had friends
burned in the great circus fire there. "Always, always, always, look
for the exits," she still says.

Thats all real survivalists do..is have an exit or the proper tool
handy. Like seatbelts, no one hopes they every get used.
On the other hand, there are an increasing number of people whom have
bugged out of the rat race and are now living in remote locations as
self sufficently as possible. Living off the grid presents some
problems, largely the lack of electical or mechanical power to do
work.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:48:55 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:41:54 GMT, Charles Morrill
wrote:

A couple thoughts:

Best simple design I've seen was right at the beginning of "The
Boy Mechanic" Vol. 1 of 19 aught something... Can't locate that
particular pile of books at the moment...
It consists of a twin cylinder affair that looks a lot like a two
stroke gas engine and would - I think - later come to be known as a
"uniflow" set up. No crossheads here, just connecting rods and wrist
pins in long pistons turned to fit bored out pipes. No eccentrics
either, just a couple of cams with spring loaded followers. Real easy
to make. The followers lift the conical valves in the steam chest to
admit steam. The cylinders have large ports in their sides to let the
steam out at the bottom of their travel, just like a two-stroke gas
engine. Think flathead two stroke and you'll have the flavor of it. I
think Lindsay has reprinted the Boy Mechanic if I'm not mistaken.
The real trick would be getting some kind of decent boiler. I'd
opt for a dry back scotch marine sort of thing because maybe you
wouldn't need a whole lot of staybolts and I'm betting that in the post
nuke world tubes might still be relatively easy to find.
I suppose it really does depend on what you'd find...Maybe if you
scored a bunch of wire and lots of small tubes you would find yourself
constructing a simple verticle fire tube affair wound about with wire
like the Stanley steamer boilers. You might get yourself quite a few
pounds of pressure that way.
I'd make boiler feed pumps and check valves using the steel balls
from larger trashed ball bearings.
Ever read John Goffe's Mill (sp?) or "The Story of a Stanley
Steamer" by George Woodberry?
Probably in the event of a real mess, I'd attempt to get back to
my friends in Northern New Hampshire who have a lot of steam stuff
hanging around. There are still a number of reciprocating steam plants
hanging around up that way.
No, that's unrealistic, last thing you could do would be to
travel...

Not necessarily, if your location becomes unsafe, or the resources are
limited. The idea of course is to be able to run "stuff" after a
disaster occurs, weeks or months after, if the utilities are not going
to come back on anytime soon, or for those whom live off the grid.

I strongly suspect that those on the edges of the once industrial
areas of the country would fare better. It's surprising what doesn't
exist here in Virginia and what remains in northern New Hampshire and
Maine.
Another book/ pamphlet around here that might come in handy was
written by the father of a blacksmith friend. He was an engineer who
worked for the U.N. and taught folks in Africa how to make simple
tools and such from the materials you might find in a railroad
scrapyard.
It's interesting that you ask this question as I've often thought
about it...My mom grew up in Hartford Connecticut and had friends
burned in the great circus fire there. "Always, always, always, look
for the exits," she still says.

Thats all real survivalists do..is have an exit or the proper tool
handy. Like seatbelts, no one hopes they every get used.
On the other hand, there are an increasing number of people whom have
bugged out of the rat race and are now living in remote locations as
self sufficently as possible. Living off the grid presents some
problems, largely the lack of electical or mechanical power to do
work.

Gunner

If I was willing to lie about other humans as you do, gunner, would be
seeking a very remote location myself.

Civilized people consider liars as enemies. Civilized countries would
prosecute them for criminal libel, and many Christians would consider
them as "Servants of Satan".



"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

What do you call a liar? Perhaps we can use "gunner" as a synonym
for some usenet user who makes foul accusations that he cannot
possibly prove?



"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:43:30 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 02:30:36 GMT, "oktr6r"
wrote:


"Bill Janssen" wrote in message
...

snip

After reading some of the other comments I still think it would be a fun
project.
All I want is one or two horsepower driving a car alternator. I would
prefer
a boiler that could take wood as the fuel but any fuel would be OK.

Probably won't ever build such a device but I would like to.

Alternator or generator? If you use an altenator, you'll need a battery for
it to start charging. A generator doesn't require one. If you'll include a
battery, the altenator would be better.

Les

batteries will be around a very long time, even after the sources of
gasoline go away. Every motor vehicle has one, so collecting them
would be easy, charging them is the problem.

Actually, the first problem would be collecting and salvaging them
before they all became sulfated and unchangeable.

The second problem would be the knowledge of how to manufacture new
ones.

Prior to Y2K, "misc.survivialism" dealt with such issues.

People like you don't seem to consider this important these days.

Some of us wonder why you hate other humans so much that you are
willing to lie about them.



Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs


"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:41:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 13 Jul 2003 18:32:51 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

That's probably the most important thing an engine can do.

For a non-remote area the most important thing would be
sanitation, water supply (again) and garbage disposal.
A good reason to be out of a populated area where one
could have a) an outhouse, b) a hand-pump well.

Some places water wells are far too deep to be able to operate a hand
pump, while modifying an generator or mechanical pump to run from a
belt drive would not be that hard.

Depends on what sort of pump you envision. A traditional "pitcher
pump" operates on the principle of creating a vacuum in a chamber
controlled by valves.

The water is forced up by atmospheric pressure at STP.

So, roughly, you are talking about a limit on a hand pump at surface
level of perhaps 32 feet or so.

If you want, you can "mechanize" such a hand pump to provide 100, or
1000, or even a million strokes per minute...but you cannot suspend
the laws of physics.

Nor can you expect to be believed if you tell lies about others on
usenet.



If you really wanted to stay connected to civilization
then one of those wind-up battery radios would be a
nice touch. Honestly I don't think an engine would
be of much use unless one were in a large agricultural
setting and most of those tended to be large cast iron
single-jug hit and miss types. Simple, reliable, belt
drive for all the machines.

Jim

Its not a matter of staying connected, but the ability to run tools by
either electrical generation or belt drive thats important.

IMHO, what is even more important is that other people with other
skills trust you enough to form a survival group with you.

Roughly [and theoretically] speaking, prior to Y2K might have wanted
you in my group, or even been willing to follow some group where you
were a leader.

However, given your recent lie about me, am searching for some
cross-cultural term of absolute rejection at any possible level of
co-operation.

I could, of course, say that I "wouldn't **** on you if you were on
fire", or that "if you were washed up on the beach half drowned I
might drag you out into deeper water or throw a bucket of water on
you."

All considered, for the moment will stick with the hope of testifying
against you at the Judgement and helping to condemn you to eternal
Hell, Gunner.

Perhaps you think you can freely lie about others. Perhaps people in
California think that such behaviour is somehow "acceptable".

However, I think it very interesting that many if not most of those on
misc.survivalism who are trying to defend your lie are from
California.

Perhaps you think that once you can try to get away with lying about
others anywhere in the world you can then lie about others in other
states of the USA?

Don't know. Don't even understand why you should want to tell lies
about me.

Can you show where have ever accused any American of "self confessed
criminal activity"?

Challenge you to do so.









However, both of these actually seem rather mild.




Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs


"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]

Gunner, wouldn't it be easier to convert a gas engine to alcohol and
then just distill your own hooch for it. A reflux distiller can get
195 proof in one run. You can ferment all sorts of trash and boiling
can be done with almost any heat source although heat control is
important for a reflux column.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:18:37 GMT, (John Flanagan)
wrote:

Gunner, wouldn't it be easier to convert a gas engine to alcohol and
then just distill your own hooch for it. A reflux distiller can get
195 proof in one run. You can ferment all sorts of trash and boiling
can be done with almost any heat source although heat control is
important for a reflux column.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

Been following this thread, and thinking ...

Wouldn't it be cool if you could (electric solenoid) inject steam into the
sparkplug hole of a 5hp small engine? Maybe trigger solenoid from mag
coil or points. Block off the intake valve and change the cam timing so the
output valve opened around bottom of stroke.

Even if such a motor produced fractional hp, it could be useful.

zero

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:41:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 13 Jul 2003 18:32:51 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

That's probably the most important thing an engine can do.

For a non-remote area the most important thing would be
sanitation, water supply (again) and garbage disposal.
A good reason to be out of a populated area where one
could have a) an outhouse, b) a hand-pump well.

Some places water wells are far too deep to be able to operate a hand
pump, while modifying an generator or mechanical pump to run from a
belt drive would not be that hard.

No matter what type of a "surface pump" the best that can be done is
to create a vacuum so that atmospheric pressure will force water to
the surface from below. 33 feet or so from memory, although if you
want the exact value of suction you could look up the range of
atmospheric pressures in your locality.

As many of us could tell you, Gunner, it wouldn't matter even if you
produced an ideal vacuum at the surface by whatever means, you cannot
overcome physical laws. Whatever suction you can produce, there is
only so much atmospheric pressure at any given moment to bring water
to the surface.

There are limits to anything, you know. Including your damned foul
lie about me.

No real excuse for such a lie for you or your apparent supporters.

However, your admission that it is a lie might help in some ways.

Won't restore any possible "friendship" of course. You have gone well
beyond that possibility.

.... Or don't you realize that some statements or actions are simply
"totally unacceptable" to fellow humans?





If you really wanted to stay connected to civilization
then one of those wind-up battery radios would be a
nice touch. Honestly I don't think an engine would
be of much use unless one were in a large agricultural
setting and most of those tended to be large cast iron
single-jug hit and miss types. Simple, reliable, belt
drive for all the machines.

Jim

Its not a matter of staying connected, but the ability to run tools by
either electrical generation or belt drive thats important.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

Hey Zero,

You might be interested then in doing a Google search for:

"EVIC engine"

Not steam, but they are solenoid valved.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:56:51 GMT, (zeromedic) wrote:



MAJOR SNIP

Been following this thread, and thinking ...

Wouldn't it be cool if you could (electric solenoid) inject steam into the
sparkplug hole of a 5hp small engine? Maybe trigger solenoid from mag
coil or points. Block off the intake valve and change the cam timing so the
output valve opened around bottom of stroke.

Even if such a motor produced fractional hp, it could be useful.

zero

In article ,
wrote:

In article , R.
Zimmerman wrote:

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.

Better to use a diesel and run it on vegetable oil. Relatively easy to
come up with.

Ev en better is to use wood smoke in a gas engine. Runs on anything
that burns, high availiability and better efficiency than a steam engine.

--
Free men own guns - slaves don't
http://www.geocities.com/nickhull99

Gunner sez: "How hard would it be to make a solar flash boiler, for those
of us in
the Southwest/South?"

Boiler? Easy. Solar collector to track the sun - nigh on to impossible!

But wait - there is more. Heard today some folks are driving coast-to-coast
on solar/electric powered autos. One of them averages around 40 mph. I
wonder how much of the collected electric goes to run the AC?

Bob Swinney

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:44:39 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine could
be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or
methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.


Gunner

Randy

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.

Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example a VW engine, to run on steam?

Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts?
Paranoid.-William
Burroughs


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs

On 13 Jul 2003 18:32:51 -0700, jim rozen
pixelated:

In article , Gunner says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

I thought solar powered pumps had been supplied to thousands
of remote African villages. Googling now for "power in remote
villages", I find wind power in Alaska, solar in India, pedal
power and solar powered Linux boxes in Laos, solar/UV systems
in Peru. The full gamut, wot?

SAIC in Sandy Eggo is pursuing a dish/Stirling engine combo
that looks interesting. (The one link which called it that
was dead but I found one on the SAIC site)
http://www.saic.com/news/jun98/news06-08-98.html

--
"Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein
-=-=-
http://www.diversify.com Wondrous Website Design

In article , Gunner says...

Some places water wells are far too deep to be able to operate a hand
pump, while modifying an generator or mechanical pump to run from a
belt drive would not be that hard.

Agree. I suspect that such areas would revert to
'uninhabited' in the absence of electrical power
though. Think of the areas where deep water
was available at one time - windmills were
often used.

Its not a matter of staying connected, but the ability to run tools by
either electrical generation or belt drive thats important.

As I mentioned before, electically operated tools probably
drop way down on the priority list pretty quick.

Water, food, sanitation. Probably in that order.
Hand pump, .22 for shooting squirrels, and an outhouse.



Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , erniegalts says...

No matter what type of a "surface pump" the best that can be done is
to create a vacuum so that atmospheric pressure will force water to
the surface from below. 33 feet or so from memory, although if you
want the exact value of suction you could look up the range of
atmospheric pressures in your locality.

Ah. Then all those windmills were pumping shallow
surface water then?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:43:30 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

batteries will be around a very long time, even after the sources of
gasoline go away. Every motor vehicle has one, so collecting them
would be easy, charging them is the problem.

Not with $15 solar trickle chargers available.

Oh, I just found another dish/Stirling engine page:
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/images...all&imageID=44

--
"Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein
-=-=-
http://www.diversify.com Wondrous Website Design

Why run it on steam? It is possible to run IC engines on a wide variety
of fuels, and the results are safer than a homebuilt steam system.

Homemade fuels are low in octane rating, but if the engine is run
appropriately (derated in power, no rapid acceleration, or at worse
extra head gaskets to lower CR) that is not a problem. Fuel can be
derived from coal or wood by destructive distillation. I have seen many
books and articles on how to do this.

Engine can also be run very well on ethanol, which has pretty good
octane. You need to have the 'proof' up there, but not beyond ability
of home stills.


Bob Swinney wrote:

"Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example
a VW engine, to run on steam?"

That has been done according to a series in that ran "Live Steam Magazine"
several years ago. I believe it was the Barrett VW. It operated on steam
from a flash-type boiler.

Bob Swinney

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.


Given the numbers of steamers here on RCM, and itinerant inventors,
somebody should have some ideas. Think of it as Junk Yard Wars.....

The only criteria is that it be easy to assemble from common
materials, capable of running an automotive generator (at the least)
and can be done with minimal tools, or simple machine tools. If it can
be scaled up for larger gennys/line shafts, that would be a plus.

Thanks in advance, let the fun begin.

Gunner


"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William
Burroughs

--
Don Stauffer in Minnesota

webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer

I have read several of your post that degenerate into your bitterness toward
Gunner. Why don't you try shunning him?

There is more than one type of pump. Many hand pumps can overcome your 33
foot problem.

--

Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA

Moderator of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/

http://www.plansandprojects.com

"A man who works with his mind, heart, and billfold is an Entrepreneur"
Joe Martin, owner of Sherline Products, Inc.
"erniegalts" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:41:23 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 13 Jul 2003 18:32:51 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

I think that in most remote locations the major factor would
be lack of fuel. So it would have to take into account
the local fuel supply if any. Most remote areas you find
folks pumping or lifting water by hand or other human power.

That's probably the most important thing an engine can do.

For a non-remote area the most important thing would be
sanitation, water supply (again) and garbage disposal.
A good reason to be out of a populated area where one
could have a) an outhouse, b) a hand-pump well.

Some places water wells are far too deep to be able to operate a hand
pump, while modifying an generator or mechanical pump to run from a
belt drive would not be that hard.

No matter what type of a "surface pump" the best that can be done is
to create a vacuum so that atmospheric pressure will force water to
the surface from below. 33 feet or so from memory, although if you
want the exact value of suction you could look up the range of
atmospheric pressures in your locality.

As many of us could tell you, Gunner, it wouldn't matter even if you
produced an ideal vacuum at the surface by whatever means, you cannot
overcome physical laws. Whatever suction you can produce, there is
only so much atmospheric pressure at any given moment to bring water
to the surface.

There are limits to anything, you know. Including your damned foul
lie about me.

No real excuse for such a lie for you or your apparent supporters.

However, your admission that it is a lie might help in some ways.

Won't restore any possible "friendship" of course. You have gone well
beyond that possibility.

... Or don't you realize that some statements or actions are simply
"totally unacceptable" to fellow humans?





If you really wanted to stay connected to civilization
then one of those wind-up battery radios would be a
nice touch. Honestly I don't think an engine would
be of much use unless one were in a large agricultural
setting and most of those tended to be large cast iron
single-jug hit and miss types. Simple, reliable, belt
drive for all the machines.

Jim

Its not a matter of staying connected, but the ability to run tools by
either electrical generation or belt drive thats important.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts?
Paranoid.-William Burroughs

It is not that hard to make a stationary battery (plant cell). You can use
the pieces from dead car batteries to do it. Making it light and rugged
enough for portable use is the trick.

--

Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA

Moderator of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/

http://www.plansandprojects.com

"A man who works with his mind, heart, and billfold is an Entrepreneur"
Joe Martin, owner of Sherline Products, Inc.
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 05:43:30 GMT, Gunner
pixelated:

batteries will be around a very long time, even after the sources of
gasoline go away. Every motor vehicle has one, so collecting them
would be easy, charging them is the problem.

Not with $15 solar trickle chargers available.

Oh, I just found another dish/Stirling engine page:
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/images...all&imageID=44

--
"Not always right, but never uncertain." --Heinlein
-=-=-
http://www.diversify.com Wondrous Website Design

Don wrote: snippage "Bob Swinney wrote:
"Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for example
a VW engine, to run on steam?"

That has been done according to a series in that ran "Live Steam Magazine"
several years ago. I believe it was the Barrett VW. It operated on steam
from a flash-type boiler."

Mine was the answer, (it is possible in the Barret VW as I stated)

I did not pose the original question "Wouldn't it be possible ....." Those
honors go to Gunner.

Bob Swinney

The question was Gunner's. The answer was mine - about the Barrettr steam
car. It was written up in LS several years ago.

Bob Swinney
"pete brooks" wrote in message
om...
Bob Swinney wrote:
"Would it be possible to convert an internal combustion engine, for
example
a VW engine, to run on steam?"

That has been done according to a series in that ran "Live Steam
Magazine"
several years ago. I believe it was the Barrett VW. It operated on
steam
from a flash-type boiler.

Try a search on the Barrett. Some sketches are on the web (or were--don't
have
the links handy) and the drawings were being offered for sale. It uses
the VW
(air cooled) block, two piston/cylinders, but you need a custom head.

Lots of ways to do a simple steam engine (look up bash valve and think
about a
2 stroke gas engine), but the hard part is to get the boiler working....

If I had a good boiler, I'd consider a motorcycle twin (parallel
cylinders, 180
degree crank) with the Westinghouse style pattern. I *think* the W'house
design lends itself to conversion, since it's a high speed, single acting
engine.

Pete Brooks

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:18:37 GMT, (John
Flanagan) wrote:

Gunner, wouldn't it be easier to convert a gas engine to alcohol and
then just distill your own hooch for it. A reflux distiller can get
195 proof in one run. You can ferment all sorts of trash and boiling
can be done with almost any heat source although heat control is
important for a reflux column.

John

Interesting idea, if one has sufficent biomass for the fermentation
process. The steam engine idea would burn local wood, from either
trees, deadfalls or buildings.

Excellent idea however, and one Ill look into. What amount of 'trash"
does it take to make enough alcohol to run a Honda Generator a few
hours a day/week?

Gunner


Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

Gunner wrote:

A thread came up a day or three ago, about building some sort of motor
to run a small generator or a belt to supply power to :stuff: in
either remote locations or in the event of a long term power failure.

A serious question to the group....in your individual opinions, does
anyone have any suggestions for a simply made from common materials,
with minimal machining, steam engine?

Boilers are another issue of course..and suggestions on that would be
nice as well.


Another way to go is a Stirling engine. I have been researching this
lately. It seems if you use helium or hydrogen under pressure as the
working fluid, it produces a LOT of power from a small engine.
There are a bunch of different designs around, and some of them
could be made from lawnmower-size engines as the basic frame.
A 90 degree V-twin would make a VERY easy conversion for
one of the Stirling designs. It is almost guaranteed that you
would get more HP out of the same heat input than with a steam
system. One of the things that got me off the steam 'train'
was the feedwater pump. Obviously, not needed for the Stirling.

I have been thinking about making a solar-powered Stirling engine,
in the several Hp class.

Jon

On 14 Jul 2003 06:59:02 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , erniegalts says...

No matter what type of a "surface pump" the best that can be done is
to create a vacuum so that atmospheric pressure will force water to
the surface from below. 33 feet or so from memory, although if you
want the exact value of suction you could look up the range of
atmospheric pressures in your locality.

Ah. Then all those windmills were pumping shallow
surface water then?


Not hardly. Windmills pull water from what ever depth you need. My
dad has some that are 100+ feet deep. Our shallowest well is about 30
feet. Slightly north of here 200+ feet deep wells are the norm and
most are pumped with windmills.

Windmills and hand pumps don't have the pump on the surface. The
pump itself is at the bottom of the well. It consists of a working
barrel, bottom check, and top check. The bottom check sits in the
bottom of the working barrel and does just what it name says. Acts as
a check valve. The top check is attached to sucker rod which moves up
and down either by windmill power or hand power. It has leathers on it
which seal it to the working barrel and moving it up and down pumps
the water.

The same technology is used in the oil field in pump jacks. The
working barrel is a little different and much more rugged but it works
about the same way. Pump jacks can go real deep like in more than
3,000 feet.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:34:39 -0500, "Ron Thompson"
wrote:

It is not that hard to make a stationary battery (plant cell). You can use
the pieces from dead car batteries to do it. Making it light and rugged
enough for portable use is the trick.

Portable is not a requirement for those off the grid.

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs

Another "Mother" article. I saw one of these during construction. It was
quite impressive in it's capability and simplicity. Of course, it was a
tracking design.

--

Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
USA

Moderator of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castinghobby/

http://www.plansandprojects.com

"A man who works with his mind, heart, and billfold is an Entrepreneur"
Joe Martin, owner of Sherline Products, Inc.
"Bill Janssen" wrote in message
...
Gunner wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:44:39 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

A waste of time if you already have a gasoline engine. The engine
could be
adapted to run on all kinds of gaseous products such as coal gas or
methane
from sewage/manure.
Better to make a gas producer than a boiler.

How hard would it be to make a solar flash boiler, for those of us in
the Southwest/South?

Gunner

I knew a person that made a solar water heater that was 10 by 10 feet. He
used
bed rails for structure and square mirror tiles as the reflector. He
clamed he could
easily boil water at the focal point of all those reflectors.

Bill K7NOM

Hi Gunner,

Build a still instead!

http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/still/index.html

Much more fun!

Glenn