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Old March 25th 04, 01:22 PM
lbbs
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simple question regarding Ceiling tiles and sound?

It's a question that I posted on many news groups, but no one
is willing to answer my actual question. It is a simple question. There
are two different ceiling tiles to choose from. One is light, flexible
and made fiber glass insulation. The other choice is a heavy tile, that is
hard (made out of asbestos or dry wall type of material, not sure though).
Which is better for sound insulation? Simple question right!!

I have asked a slew hard ware store to ask this very question and every
one a ask says the exact opposite. I have always heard that you need
mass and air space to have good sound insulation. My thinking is that
yes, hard objects carry sound, but since this ceiling is free floating and
supported only by wire, the sound will not travel through the hard tile.
Those that make sense.


PREVIOUS POST:
I was just wondering if I replace my flexible 48" x 24" ceiling tiles with
the hard type (much heavier) will I notice the difference in sound
proofing?

I call all kinds of hardware stores to see which of the two is better for
sound. The opinions are split 50/50 between flexible and hard type. I
personally think the hard type are better, I wonder if replacing them with
this type will actually make a noticeable difference to be worth replacing
them?




  #2   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 06:07 PM
Malcolm Race
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simple question regarding Ceiling tiles and sound?



lbbs wrote:
It's a question that I posted on many news groups, but no one
is willing to answer my actual question. It is a simple question. There
are two different ceiling tiles to choose from. One is light, flexible
and made fiber glass insulation. The other choice is a heavy tile, that is
hard (made out of asbestos or dry wall type of material, not sure though).
Which is better for sound insulation? Simple question right!!

I have asked a slew hard ware store to ask this very question and every
one a ask says the exact opposite. I have always heard that you need
mass and air space to have good sound insulation. My thinking is that
yes, hard objects carry sound, but since this ceiling is free floating and
supported only by wire, the sound will not travel through the hard tile.
Those that make sense.


PREVIOUS POST:
I was just wondering if I replace my flexible 48" x 24" ceiling tiles with
the hard type (much heavier) will I notice the difference in sound
proofing?

I call all kinds of hardware stores to see which of the two is better for
sound. The opinions are split 50/50 between flexible and hard type. I
personally think the hard type are better, I wonder if replacing them with
this type will actually make a noticeable difference to be worth replacing
them?



I am now watching a room in a Primary School being sub divided to make a
Music Practice Room. The walls are metal stud clad with two layers of
plasterboard each side sandwiching about 2 inches of fibreglass
insulation. If thr architect knows what he is doing, this might be a clue.

Malcolm

  #3   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 06:47 PM
andrewpreece
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simple question regarding Ceiling tiles and sound?


"lbbs" wrote in message
...
It's a question that I posted on many news groups, but no one
is willing to answer my actual question. It is a simple question. There
are two different ceiling tiles to choose from. One is light, flexible
and made fiber glass insulation. The other choice is a heavy tile, that

is
hard (made out of asbestos or dry wall type of material, not sure though).
Which is better for sound insulation? Simple question right!!

I have asked a slew hard ware store to ask this very question and every
one a ask says the exact opposite. I have always heard that you need
mass and air space to have good sound insulation. My thinking is that
yes, hard objects carry sound, but since this ceiling is free floating and
supported only by wire, the sound will not travel through the hard tile.
Those that make sense.


PREVIOUS POST:
I was just wondering if I replace my flexible 48" x 24" ceiling tiles with
the hard type (much heavier) will I notice the difference in sound
proofing?

I call all kinds of hardware stores to see which of the two is better for
sound. The opinions are split 50/50 between flexible and hard type.

I
personally think the hard type are better, I wonder if replacing them

with
this type will actually make a noticeable difference to be worth replacing
them?




I don't think the answer is as simple as the question. Let's take it from
the
top:-

Sound can either be transmitted, reflected or absorbed. You want to
eliminate
the transmitted sound, so you need to reflect or absorb it.
To reflect sound you need to create mismatches in the compliance of the
mediums
that the sound travels through ( in electronics, analogous to an impedance
mismatch ).
The way to do this is to put dense materials ( or more correctly, massy ) in
the way
of the sound, as if the noise comes via the air then that has a low density,
so the mismatch
is high, and the reflectance is also therefore high.

Absorption needs an energy loss mechanism; the sound wave needs to lose
energy as
heat whilst passing through a medium, for it to be absorbed. Such a material
might
be rockwool, sand, or some kind of non-resilient material.

The best combination would be a material that is massive and energy
absorbing.
There are complications, low frequency sound will be difficult to defeat,
any airgaps
leaking noise must be sealed, there should be no ( or few ) ways for the
sound to
travel through the supports of the sound insulation ( and thus bypass the
airgap
and suffer only a small mismatch and thus not be reflected ). Also, any
sound that is
reflected will only try and return if it is not absorbed by something after
its first
reflection.

Your hard tiles have mass but probably no absorption; the sound will be
largely
reflected by them but bounce back up to the ceiling ( slightly attenuated
as some will transmit back up through the ceiling ) then bounce back for a
second
go at getting through your tiles.
The flexible tiles have less mass than the hard ( so reflect sound
less ) but may
absorb any transmitted sound better. I say may, as we have no info on the
material characteristics vis a vis absorption. So your question is
impossible to answer
on the data given. What I have written here, I hope will allow you to think
about the
problem in a more scientific manner, and hopefully you can ask for more info
on these
materials.

If you go wih the hard tiles, which are massive, you at least can be sure
that their
reflectance will exceed that of the lighter flexible tiles. You might then
think about
some absorbtion material in the airgap. Sand is no good with the suspended
ceiling you have, rockwool might work ( I have no idea of its absorption
properties,
it is suggested quite a lot though ). Othe things that might work would be
the audio
equivalent of RAM ( Radar Absorbtion Material ) tiles used in radio. These
are
carbon-loaded and have an exaggerated stalactite type appearance to them.
The
carbon absorbs the radio waves, and the spiky profile ensures multiple
reflections
( and hence opportunity for absorption ) when it is struck by a radio wave.
Sound waves behave similarly and although carbon loaded foam won't work for
sound, something that is non-resilient ( i.e. does not instantly spring back
into
position when disturbed ) will. The stalactite/eggbox/dimpled patern will
also work for
sound waves. IIRC, you could also buy sheets of material with lots of holes
drilled
in it, I think it was filled with rockwool; hey used it in 'phone booths,
that is an
absorption type material.

So, high mass tiles for reflectance, then load the airgap with rockwool or
glue some
kind of absorption tile or material on the ceiling on the other side of the
airspace,
preferably with the eggbox profile if they do it, and you have the
theoretical best
of both worlds. Seal all airgaps, between the tiles and at thje edges. Make
sure the
suspension wires don't transmit sound along their length, so bypassing the
airgap/
absorption material, and don't expect too much anyway.

Hope this leaves you less confused, rather than vice versa,

Andy.





  #4   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 07:12 PM
lbbs
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simple question regarding Ceiling tiles and sound?

I am not sure where I want to reflect or absorb sound, but what I am trying
to do is, not let the noise from the room above our ceiling get in the our
room.
I don't care as much about sound leaving my room (we are generally quite).

I have the soft light tiles installed in my room right now, would replacing
them
with the heavy hard type improve my situation?

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

"lbbs" wrote in message
...
It's a question that I posted on many news groups, but no one
is willing to answer my actual question. It is a simple question.

There
are two different ceiling tiles to choose from. One is light, flexible
and made fiber glass insulation. The other choice is a heavy tile,

that
is
hard (made out of asbestos or dry wall type of material, not sure

though).
Which is better for sound insulation? Simple question right!!

I have asked a slew hard ware store to ask this very question and every
one a ask says the exact opposite. I have always heard that you need
mass and air space to have good sound insulation. My thinking is that
yes, hard objects carry sound, but since this ceiling is free floating

and
supported only by wire, the sound will not travel through the hard tile.
Those that make sense.


PREVIOUS POST:
I was just wondering if I replace my flexible 48" x 24" ceiling tiles

with
the hard type (much heavier) will I notice the difference in sound
proofing?

I call all kinds of hardware stores to see which of the two is better

for
sound. The opinions are split 50/50 between flexible and hard type.

I
personally think the hard type are better, I wonder if replacing them

with
this type will actually make a noticeable difference to be worth

replacing
them?




I don't think the answer is as simple as the question. Let's take it from
the
top:-

Sound can either be transmitted, reflected or absorbed. You want to
eliminate
the transmitted sound, so you need to reflect or absorb it.
To reflect sound you need to create mismatches in the compliance of the
mediums
that the sound travels through ( in electronics, analogous to an impedance
mismatch ).
The way to do this is to put dense materials ( or more correctly, massy )

in
the way
of the sound, as if the noise comes via the air then that has a low

density,
so the mismatch
is high, and the reflectance is also therefore high.

Absorption needs an energy loss mechanism; the sound wave needs to lose
energy as
heat whilst passing through a medium, for it to be absorbed. Such a

material
might
be rockwool, sand, or some kind of non-resilient material.

The best combination would be a material that is massive and energy
absorbing.
There are complications, low frequency sound will be difficult to defeat,
any airgaps
leaking noise must be sealed, there should be no ( or few ) ways for the
sound to
travel through the supports of the sound insulation ( and thus bypass the
airgap
and suffer only a small mismatch and thus not be reflected ). Also, any
sound that is
reflected will only try and return if it is not absorbed by something

after
its first
reflection.

Your hard tiles have mass but probably no absorption; the sound will be
largely
reflected by them but bounce back up to the ceiling ( slightly attenuated
as some will transmit back up through the ceiling ) then bounce back for a
second
go at getting through your tiles.
The flexible tiles have less mass than the hard ( so reflect sound
less ) but may
absorb any transmitted sound better. I say may, as we have no info on the
material characteristics vis a vis absorption. So your question is
impossible to answer
on the data given. What I have written here, I hope will allow you to

think
about the
problem in a more scientific manner, and hopefully you can ask for more

info
on these
materials.

If you go wih the hard tiles, which are massive, you at least can be sure
that their
reflectance will exceed that of the lighter flexible tiles. You might then
think about
some absorbtion material in the airgap. Sand is no good with the suspended
ceiling you have, rockwool might work ( I have no idea of its absorption
properties,
it is suggested quite a lot though ). Othe things that might work would be
the audio
equivalent of RAM ( Radar Absorbtion Material ) tiles used in radio. These
are
carbon-loaded and have an exaggerated stalactite type appearance to them.
The
carbon absorbs the radio waves, and the spiky profile ensures multiple
reflections
( and hence opportunity for absorption ) when it is struck by a radio

wave.
Sound waves behave similarly and although carbon loaded foam won't work

for
sound, something that is non-resilient ( i.e. does not instantly spring

back
into
position when disturbed ) will. The stalactite/eggbox/dimpled patern will
also work for
sound waves. IIRC, you could also buy sheets of material with lots of

holes
drilled
in it, I think it was filled with rockwool; hey used it in 'phone booths,
that is an
absorption type material.

So, high mass tiles for reflectance, then load the airgap with rockwool or
glue some
kind of absorption tile or material on the ceiling on the other side of

the
airspace,
preferably with the eggbox profile if they do it, and you have the
theoretical best
of both worlds. Seal all airgaps, between the tiles and at thje edges.

Make
sure the
suspension wires don't transmit sound along their length, so bypassing the
airgap/
absorption material, and don't expect too much anyway.

Hope this leaves you less confused, rather than vice versa,

Andy.







  #5   Report Post  
Old March 25th 04, 11:27 PM
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simple question regarding Ceiling tiles and sound?

In article ,
lbbs wrote:
It's a question that I posted on many news groups, but no one
is willing to answer my actual question.


Sorry? You've had several replies to your original thread including mine
which said to ask the makers for the specs in this respect.

--
*I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn


  #6   Report Post  
Old March 26th 04, 01:36 AM
andrewpreece
 
Posts: n/a
Default Simple question regarding Ceiling tiles and sound?


"lbbs" wrote in message
...
I am not sure where I want to reflect or absorb sound, but what I am

trying
to do is, not let the noise from the room above our ceiling get in the our
room.
I don't care as much about sound leaving my room (we are generally quite).

I have the soft light tiles installed in my room right now, would

replacing
them
with the heavy hard type improve my situation?


When I say that you can absorb or reflect sound, I don't mean that you can
either reflect sound coming into your room from outside, OR absorb
sound coming from any noise you make in your room: I mean absorption
and reflection are the only two possible ways of stopping noise getting
into your room, and depending on what tiles you use, they will either work
mainly by reflecting sound or a combination of reflection and absorption.

You won't care which method they use, only that they make your room
quieter, but it's impossible for anyone here to tell ( even if they are
knowledgeable on the subject ) whether your hard or flexible tiles work
better without more info. What are they made of? What thickness/mass.
Who makes them? Do they have a website or technical info? What do they
claim for their product?

Go to the Google search engine at www.google.com and type in a search
string like:-

soundproofing suspended acoustic tiles

or add some more search terms, whatever, and plough through the many
websites that will carry info on sound absorption. It will take you some
hours probably - how badly do you want to get decent sound insulation?

Failing that, the lazy option is to get the most massive tiles you can lay
your hands on and use them, flexible or rigid, as long as you don't create
a hazard. Allow no airgaps around the tiles, or around the edge either.
To be honest, if you don't understand the problem properly then you may
well not achieve very good results. For instance, it may be better to use
acoustic isolators ( resilent mounts ) to suspend your ceiling hangingwires
from, else they may transmit sound - I dunno, you'll have to do the
research. Here is a snippet from one US website I looked at:-

". Acoustical Ceiling Tiles, their name seems to indicate they are
acoustical when in fact they are poor acoustical products when used
incorrectly. For example: Many commercial offices are constructed with
metal stud and gypsum drywall partitions which go up to and end at the
bottom of the ceiling grid. Two layers of drywall on 3-5/8" stud has a
Sound Transmission Coefficient (STC) of around 38. Most ceiling tiles have
an STC much less than 38 because they are made from a dense, lightweight,
fiberous material and are generally not thicker than 5/8" of an inch. These
tiles are designed to absorb a portion of the room noise and to stop a
portion of the noise from traveling through the tile. They were never
designed to replace a drywall ceiling, wall or partition. If you have an
acoustical ceiling as the only barrier between your conference room or
office and the adjoining room or office, you will have a noise problem.
Demising walls (constructed from top of floor to bottom of floor above) are
always the best choice when noise is a concern. To increase the performance
of a suspended ceiling, we suggest the addition of a layer of drywall cut to
the ceiling tile sizes. The drywall can be laid on top of the ceiling
tiles in the grid to stop noise. You must check the grid suspension system
design to insure that it will hold the added weight of drywall. Inspect
existing grids thoroughly before making any modifications. Many older grids
use thin hanger wires, have insufficient anchor points, etc.. All design
and construction deficiencies should be corrected."

Andy.





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