We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

I had this happening in the Condominium that I used to live in until about
a year ago. It happens to some extent in my new house as well. I didn't
have it quite that bad, but we did go through a lot of bulbs. I remember
once saying something like that about "electrical system probaby not quite
right" and he asked if the lights that burned out were on a ceiling that
had a floor above it. I said yes. He said it's likely that the vibrations
from walking above might be jarring the filaments in the bulb, causing
them to fail prematurely. Sounds reasonable, but is it the problem? I
can't say. Hope this helps some.

Danny

wrote:

We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?

-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

I had the same problem with a house I purchased a couple of years ago.
Turned out that there was a problem with the transformer at the street, and
I was getting serious over-voltage.

Check your outlets with a multi-meter. I think I was getting 135-140v on
110 v circuits.

Once this was discovered, the utility company jumped through hoops to
correct the problem.

KB
wrote in message
oups.com...
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

On 13 Feb 2005 20:27:12 -0800, wrote:

We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

I had the same problems a few years ago. Had power company to come
out and put a recording volt meter on line. Found no problems.
Changed to higher quality bulbs.. problem solved. Some charities used
to sell great "lifetime" bulbs as a fund raiser.. They weren't
lifetime.. but lasted longer than what you get in grocery store.

note.. Having power company record incoming voltage won't show a
problem you may be having with your wiring inside of house .. such as
broken neutral line..

I am not an electrician, but maybe check to make sure you are using the
right size watts and bulb type for the outlet.



wrote in message
oups.com...
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

Subject: Burned Out Light Bulbs
Newsgroup: alt.home.repair
= Unknown = wrote:

I am not an electrician, but maybe check to make sure you are using the
right size watts and bulb type for the outlet.


WOW!!

What a great idea.


--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

On 13 Feb 2005 20:27:12 -0800, wrote:

We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?


That's very possible. The most likely cause is that the voltage is
too high in your house and that has given you shortened life on the
bulbs.

The question is what is causing this? The first thing you need to do
is get an accurate voltmeter. If you don't own one see if you can
borrow one from a neighbor. Measure the voltage at a few outlets
around your house. Repeat the measurements at various times of day.
You should be measuring no more than 125 volts (Assuming you are in
North America). Two quick possibilities...

1. If you get really weird High and Low readlings, such as 130+ volts
on some outlets and perhaps 100 or less volts on others, you most
likely have a loose or broken neutral problem. This is something that
a professional electrician will need to fix. This is a serious
problem and a fire hazard so you don't want to delay calling for
professional help.

2. If every outlet reads a high voltage, say 130 volts, then most
likely the problem is with your power company, specifically, with the
power company's transformer serving your house. They should fix this
for free.

Perhaps the quickest way to determine the cause of the problem is to
call the power company first. They should send out a technician to
determine if the problem is yours or theirs and most will not charge
you for the visit.

Beachcomber

I had this problem, although not quite as bad as you and it was only in
one room.

When I replaced the ceiling light fixture the problem went away.

Lewis.

******

wrote:
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on.
I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then
burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

wrote in message

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.
The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

Commercial Electric compact fluorescent light that sells for $5
each claims to have a lifespan of about 7-years. I keep burning out my
$0.17 bulbs far too many times (around three weeks on a 126VAC.)
Mostly right after the switch is flipped on. I now use the $0.17 bulbs
only on dimmable reading lamps.

Like most fluorescent lights, the compact fluorescent bulbs won't burn
out within the 7-years period but would usually slowly deteriorate in its
luminosity.

The Commercial Electric compact fluorescent lights are very slow to
brighten compared to incandescent. I recently had four of them installed.
Each had a light output equal to a typical 56-watts bulb within in 20-
seconds (they claim 60-watts.) Since each consumes only 17-watts of
energy I now have three bulbs per bedroom and not have to worry
about a ladder for four or five years.

wrote:
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.


After all other solutions fail - if they do - replace your light switches
with dimmer switches. "Turning up" the light may provide enough time for the
device to handle the surge. Also, running at 90% should lengthen the bulb's
life.

wrote in message

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

Others have already mentioned to check the voltage. I had this problem a
couple of years ago. Early in the morning, the electric company increases
the output to be ready for all the industrial startups between 6 and 7 AM.
I was getting readings of 142 volts in the AM, but it would be normal the
rest of the day. My point is to check the voltage a few times during the
day to be sure it is not just certain times. The power company was able to
fix my problem by repairing their equipment.

wrote:
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin


If after investigating you find that everything is up to snuff with the
home's wiring, but the incoming voltage is on the high side, but not so
high that your utility will do anything about it, there are a few things
you can do:

1. Buy 130 volt bulbs. They are available through electrical supply
houses. You'll find they will last a LOT longer. They cost quite a bit
more than commonly available bulbs, and you won't get as many lumens of
light per watt consumed, but every convenience has its price.

2. You can buy thermistor "soft start" devices which go in the socket
under the bulb base and effectively eliminate the turn on current surge.

3. As others have suggested you can install solid state lamp dimmers and
remember to turn the lights on by bringing the dimmer up from zero.
That'll eliminate the turn on surge too.

4. I got annoyed at the frequency with which I'd notice one of the eight
"vanity" bulbs in our master bath burned out. Ten years ago I installed
a dimmer in that circuit and hid it in a box above the top of a medicine
cabinet. I set it slightly down from full on, and I don't think I've had
to replace more than a couple of those vanity bulbs since I did that.
Plus, the light is just a bit softer and redder, which helps us to
accept our morning mugs in the mirror. G

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

wrote in message
oups.com...
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.



Use a better quality light bulb.

I had the same problem.

Solution: Have your electrician put a whole house surge suppressor on
immediately after your meter. My file serve kept a log of incoming line
voltage - very dirty inspite of what power company said. Peak volts varied
from 94 - 160. The suppressor clamped them at a peak of 129 v. Light bulbs
last a long time.

Goodluck

"kato" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.



Use a better quality light bulb.

Jeff Wisnia wrote in news:U7ydnRY6TupGTY3fRVn-
:

If after investigating you find that everything is up to snuff with the
home's wiring, but the incoming voltage is on the high side, but not so
high that your utility will do anything about it, there are a few things
you can do:

1. Buy 130 volt bulbs. They are available through electrical supply
houses.

HD and Lowes also sell them,as "contractor" bulbs,in large packs,24 or more
bulbs.One of those two -used- to sell them in smaller,more practical
packs(for me),but I haven't been able to find them lately.
I prefer to use the 130v bulbs.


You'll find they will last a LOT longer. They cost quite a bit
more than commonly available bulbs, and you won't get as many lumens of
light per watt consumed, but every convenience has its price.

I had a 130V 100W bulb last for 14 years in the globe in my dining room,and
it was on a dimmer,but I turned it on and off normally but not dimming to
'out',but at about a 85 % level.


Ordinary incandescent bulb filaments gradually erode and become thinner,and
finally,the turn out surge is what kills them.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:

snipped


Ordinary incandescent bulb filaments gradually erode and become thinner,and
finally,the turn out surge is what kills them.


Yeah, and sometimes when they burn out you'll get a "tungsten arc"
effect where an arc starts burning between the broken filament ends and
keeps melting back along the two filament pieces until it is arcing
directly between the filament connecting leads. That arc can be a low
enough resistance to cause a fuse to pop or a breaker to snap.

When you get a "tungsten arc" it usually occurs just as you switch on
the bulb and you may notice a brief brighter than normal flash of light,
it's all over in a moment.

Some light bulbs are/were made with a "fuse link" built into one of the
leads intended to blow under those arcing conditions to avoid your
having to reset a breaker or replace a fuse.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

wrote:

We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?

-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

Bulbs burn out when you first turn them because the cold filament allows
more juice to flow.
As others suggested it sounds like voltage is too high.

LB

wrote:

We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?

-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin

Bulbs burn out when you first turn them because the cold filament allows
more juice to flow.
As others suggested it sounds like voltage is too high.

LB

s/b 117 VAC RMS, no?

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I had the same problem with a house I purchased a couple of years ago.
Turned out that there was a problem with the transformer at the street,
and
I was getting serious over-voltage.

Check your outlets with a multi-meter. I think I was getting 135-140v on
110 v circuits.

Once this was discovered, the utility company jumped through hoops to
correct the problem.

KB

Your point is well-taken, but I never had a circuit breaker trip due to a
light bulb failure.
Never heard of fusable link in a light bulb.
"Jeff Wisnia"


Ordinary incandescent bulb filaments gradually erode and become
thinner,and
finally,the turn out surge is what kills them.


Yeah, and sometimes when they burn out you'll get a "tungsten arc"
effect where an arc starts burning between the broken filament ends and
keeps melting back along the two filament pieces until it is arcing
directly between the filament connecting leads. That arc can be a low
enough resistance to cause a fuse to pop or a breaker to snap.

When you get a "tungsten arc" it usually occurs just as you switch on
the bulb and you may notice a brief brighter than normal flash of light,
it's all over in a moment.

Some light bulbs are/were made with a "fuse link" built into one of the
leads intended to blow under those arcing conditions to avoid your
having to reset a breaker or replace a fuse.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote


4. I got annoyed at the frequency with which I'd notice one of the eight
"vanity" bulbs in our master bath burned out. Ten years ago I installed
a dimmer in that circuit and hid it in a box above the top of a medicine
cabinet. I set it slightly down from full on, and I don't think I've had
to replace more than a couple of those vanity bulbs since I did that.
Plus, the light is just a bit softer and redder, which helps us to
accept our morning mugs in the mirror. G

Does a dimmer constitute a soft starter? IOW, does it block current until
voltage zero-crossing?
Obviously, you are not turning the lights on at the dimmer. It is in series
with your regular switch.

wrote in message
oups.com...
We have been in this house quit a while, and I recall always having
this problem.

We go through light bulbs like water. It is not uncommon for a light
bulb to last two or three weeks before I have to replace it again.

The bulbs always burn out right when the light switch is turned on. I
turn on the light switch, the light goes on for an instant, then burns
out. The bulbs don't ever burn out when the light has been on for a
while.

So, I really feel like there is something not right about the
electricity in the house, as strange as that sounds.

Any ideas?



-----+-----joe Obrin
|

|
+-----http://www.io.com/~joeobrin


This is Turtle.

Let me give you some electric data and then you will tell me what your problem
is.

All light bulbs now days are rated to be used with 120 volt electric service.
Most all electric service voltage supplied to homes now a days runs between 120
volts to 125 volts. So you are running a light bulb rated to run on 120 volts
and suppling 124 volts service to it and I call this over powering the rated 120
volt light bulb with 124 volt electric service .

Now tell me why the bulbs are burning out so fast.

Now here is a little hint here. Just get light bulbs rated for 130 volts and
light bulbs will go back to running a year and not days. Now there is another
word for this 130 volt rated light bulb and it is called Ruff Service light
bulbs. You can find some brands of light bulbs that are rated for 130 volts but
you will pay 3 times as much for them because they are well made and don't burn
out so fast. All light bulbs have the rating stamped on the top of the bulb for
you to see.

TURTLE

Strange comments, coming from the dimmest bulb in the universe.

"Matt" wrote in message
ups.com...
Strange comments, coming from the dimmest bulb in the universe.


This is Turtle.

OOOOOO I must have step on your Troll Blanket sometime. Sorry about that !

TURTLE

John B wrote:
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote



4. I got annoyed at the frequency with which I'd notice one of the eight
"vanity" bulbs in our master bath burned out. Ten years ago I installed
a dimmer in that circuit and hid it in a box above the top of a medicine
cabinet. I set it slightly down from full on, and I don't think I've had
to replace more than a couple of those vanity bulbs since I did that.
Plus, the light is just a bit softer and redder, which helps us to
accept our morning mugs in the mirror. G


Does a dimmer constitute a soft starter? IOW, does it block current until
voltage zero-crossing?
Obviously, you are not turning the lights on at the dimmer. It is in series
with your regular switch.




I don't thing the long life I'm getting is from a "soft start", which to
my understanding is a slow increase in voltage/current which takes maybe
a second or so and never lets the current get to the high levels it will
reach when a cold bulb filament is suddenly connected to full power. I
suspect the thermal lag in a good sized bulb's filament may be enough so
that not much is gained just by having the first half cycle of power to
the bulb start at a zero crossing, though that can't hurt either, can it?

I'd rather go with the theory that running the bulbs a bit down from
their rated power is akin to using 130 volt bulbs, and the evaporation
rate of the filament is down by whatever exponential ratio fits the
reduced power, and thus they "last longer".

And yes, I do have the original wall toggle switch ahead the dimmer.

Don Klipstein should check in here about now, he's my acknowledged light
bulb guru. There's more than you probably ever wanted to know at his
great site:

http://members.misty.com/don/light.html

HTH,

Jeff



--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

No. OP noted that his lights die only at the moment that the light switch
is turned on. This has zero correlation to the line garbage that you are
talking about.

"Evon" wrote

Solution: Have your electrician put a whole house surge suppressor on
immediately after your meter.

Your point is taken, that "soft start" does not *necessarily* consist of
zero-crossing start. Your point is also taken that the low resistance of a
light bulb changes to a much higher resistance, once the filament heats up.
For a brief time, a hugh inrush of current is possible due to the initial
low resistance of the light. That is indeed more likely the culprit in lamp
mortality, than mere lack of starting at zero-crossing.
I recall from years ago that triac implies start at zero crossing. Lutron
website says all of its dimmers have triacs as the essential elements. So
any Lutron dimmer would seemingly assure startup at zero crossing.

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
John B wrote:
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote



4. I got annoyed at the frequency with which I'd notice one of the eight
"vanity" bulbs in our master bath burned out. Ten years ago I installed
a dimmer in that circuit and hid it in a box above the top of a medicine
cabinet. I set it slightly down from full on, and I don't think I've had
to replace more than a couple of those vanity bulbs since I did that.
Plus, the light is just a bit softer and redder, which helps us to
accept our morning mugs in the mirror. G


Does a dimmer constitute a soft starter? IOW, does it block current
until
voltage zero-crossing?
Obviously, you are not turning the lights on at the dimmer. It is in
series
with your regular switch.




I don't thing the long life I'm getting is from a "soft start", which to
my understanding is a slow increase in voltage/current which takes maybe
a second or so and never lets the current get to the high levels it will
reach when a cold bulb filament is suddenly connected to full power. I
suspect the thermal lag in a good sized bulb's filament may be enough so
that not much is gained just by having the first half cycle of power to
the bulb start at a zero crossing, though that can't hurt either, can it?

I'd rather go with the theory that running the bulbs a bit down from
their rated power is akin to using 130 volt bulbs, and the evaporation
rate of the filament is down by whatever exponential ratio fits the
reduced power, and thus they "last longer".

And yes, I do have the original wall toggle switch ahead the dimmer.

Don Klipstein should check in here about now, he's my acknowledged light
bulb guru. There's more than you probably ever wanted to know at his
great site:

http://members.misty.com/don/light.html

HTH,

Jeff



--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

John B wrote:
Your point is taken, that "soft start" does not *necessarily* consist
of
zero-crossing start. Your point is also taken that the low
resistance of a
light bulb changes to a much higher resistance, once the filament
heats up.
For a brief time, a hugh inrush of current is possible due to the
initial
low resistance of the light. That is indeed more likely the culprit
in lamp
mortality, than mere lack of starting at zero-crossing.
I recall from years ago that triac implies start at zero crossing.
Lutron
website says all of its dimmers have triacs as the essential
elements. So
any Lutron dimmer would seemingly assure startup at zero crossing.

Your recollection may be inaccurate. Triac light dimmers actually work
by assuring AGAINST zero crossing startup. Except when full-on or off,
the dimmer operates by delaying the current with respect to the voltage
zero crossing, 120 times per second. When at 50% duty cycle (about 1/2
power), the current starts 1/4 cycle behind the voltage, i.e. at the
PEAK of the voltage sinewave, and stops when the voltage passes through
zero, so only the last half of each positive and negative half-cycle is
used.

Some heater controls modulate power by energizing the element for a
certain number of full cycles, deenergizing for some number of full
cycles, and so on. Here, zero crossing can be employed. This scheme is
not so good for lighting because the "blink rate" is well below 60 Hz
and would be quite noticable.

The question to be answered is how much of a difference does it make
using the last half of the sine "bump" vs. the first half, in terms of
energy imparted to the filament per cycle, taking into account the mass
and heat capacity of the filament, etc. etc.

I suspect that during rapid warmup, one segment of the filament gets
hotter than the rest, which makes its resistance go up higher, which
means it receives more power than than its neighboring segments which
still have lower resistance. Since it receives more power, it heats up
even faster and resistance increases even more. The hotter segment also
expands more rapidly and suffers greater mechanical stress and fatigue
as a result, becoming a likely point of failure.

Bringing the current up slowly, over the course of a second or so,
allows time for all segments to heat at closer to the same rate, as
well as time for heat to diffuse from one segment to another, allowing
more uniform heating and greatly reducing the chance of a local hotspot
forming.

Some of these ideas can be demonstrated by experimenting with bulbs in
series, which is effectively a single filament divided into segments.
Say you have a car battery (12V) and 5 to 10 identical automotive bulbs
in series. When you complete the circuit, you'll see that one gets
initially brighter than the others, then it may even get dimmer as the
others "catch up" to finally achieve uniform brightness. That's because
even though they are "identical," there are slight differences in the
bulbs and the one with the highest initial resistance and/or the
quickest heating filament will absorb most of the power till the others
heat up. I noticed this effect when I was about 6 years old, though I
had no idea what was causing it; I just knew I could rearrange the
order of the bulbs in series till they lit up from left to right and it
was pretty cool.

%mod%

Tim Zimmerman wrote:

The Commercial Electric compact fluorescent lights are very slow to
brighten compared to incandescent. I recently had four of them
installed.
Each had a light output equal to a typical 56-watts bulb within in
20-
seconds (they claim 60-watts.) Since each consumes only 17-watts of
energy I now have three bulbs per bedroom and not have to worry
about a ladder for four or five years.

I like the CE, Sylvania and some other brands CF lights for certain
applications. They are "instant on" and can even start at 0 degrees
Fahrenheit, even though as you note they have a warmup time. One other
thing worth noting is that some fixtures have a limit of 60W per bulb,
incandescent. You can substitute 23W or 28W CF bulbs and achieve better
illumination.

CF bulbs are not as good where you'll turn them off before they'll
achieve full brightness, meaning they're most effective where they'll
be on for minutes to hours at a time.

I like dimmable halogens for reading lights.

%mod%

wrote:

snipped

Some of these ideas can be demonstrated by experimenting with bulbs in
series, which is effectively a single filament divided into segments.
Say you have a car battery (12V) and 5 to 10 identical automotive bulbs
in series. When you complete the circuit, you'll see that one gets
initially brighter than the others, then it may even get dimmer as the
others "catch up" to finally achieve uniform brightness. That's because
even though they are "identical," there are slight differences in the
bulbs and the one with the highest initial resistance and/or the
quickest heating filament will absorb most of the power till the others
heat up. I noticed this effect when I was about 6 years old, though I
had no idea what was causing it; I just knew I could rearrange the
order of the bulbs in series till they lit up from left to right and it
was pretty cool.


I've never noticed that effect, but it seems possible.

I'm guessing it was holiday lighting (Xmas tree strings) you were
experimenting with when you were around age 6, right?

I'm having a hard time visualizing what ten 12 volt bulbs across a 12
volt battery would end up doing. Wouldn't seem like there'd be enough
voltage available to produce anything other than infrared "uniform
brightness" with just 1.2 volts across each bulb, or did you misspeak
about the battery's voltage?

Oh, and my face is red for geting lured into agreeing that triacs
"switch on" at zero crossings. I know better, but it's been so long
since I built anything with triacs that I forgot that they "latch on"
once triggered and have to wait for a current zero crossing to drop out.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Impressive commentary! Thank you for clarifying the triac methodology.
That was quite the observation for a 6 year old. I trust that was quite a
while ago...!!g So that speaks well of your memory, too. Seems you were
a "natural."
I have an attractive light fixture, which has been dark for years. The
fancy bulbs required for it burned out within days of
installation...ridiculous. Got tired of feeding cash into this fruitless
effort. There are four bulb sockets. The fixture is controlled by two
3-way switches; it's at the base of stairs.

This thread has renewed my interest in reactivating the fixture. I will put
a standard (non 3-way) slide-dimmer at each of the two switch locations.
SLIDE is critical, to force the user to warm the bulb filaments gradually.
The catch is that TWO DIMMERS cannot cohabitate in the same 3-way circuit;
because it seems highly imprudent to put two dimmers in series. Your
rebuttal would be welcome.
So...
I'll should split the fixture sockets. Two sockets will be controlled by
one slide switch; the other two sockets by the other switch. This way, at
least there will be some light, if only one switch is slid to its "on"
position.
I have another stairwell, which has two 3-way switches. One is a
push-button dimmer; of a 3-way nature. The other is a conventional 3-way
lever switch. The bulbs controlled there *never* burn out. I hesitate to
use this proven configuration with the fixture whose bulbs die so quickly.
I want those delicate bulbs to *always* light up slowly.

wrote
Your recollection may be inaccurate. Triac light dimmers actually work
by assuring AGAINST zero crossing startup. Except when full-on or off,
the dimmer operates by delaying the current with respect to the voltage
zero crossing, 120 times per second. When at 50% duty cycle (about 1/2
power), the current starts 1/4 cycle behind the voltage, i.e. at the
PEAK of the voltage sinewave, and stops when the voltage passes through
zero, so only the last half of each positive and negative half-cycle is
used.

Some heater controls modulate power by energizing the element for a
certain number of full cycles, deenergizing for some number of full
cycles, and so on. Here, zero crossing can be employed. This scheme is
not so good for lighting because the "blink rate" is well below 60 Hz
and would be quite noticable.

The question to be answered is how much of a difference does it make
using the last half of the sine "bump" vs. the first half, in terms of
energy imparted to the filament per cycle, taking into account the mass
and heat capacity of the filament, etc. etc.

I suspect that during rapid warmup, one segment of the filament gets
hotter than the rest, which makes its resistance go up higher, which
means it receives more power than than its neighboring segments which
still have lower resistance. Since it receives more power, it heats up
even faster and resistance increases even more. The hotter segment also
expands more rapidly and suffers greater mechanical stress and fatigue
as a result, becoming a likely point of failure.

Bringing the current up slowly, over the course of a second or so,
allows time for all segments to heat at closer to the same rate, as
well as time for heat to diffuse from one segment to another, allowing
more uniform heating and greatly reducing the chance of a local hotspot
forming.

Some of these ideas can be demonstrated by experimenting with bulbs in
series, which is effectively a single filament divided into segments.
Say you have a car battery (12V) and 5 to 10 identical automotive bulbs
in series. When you complete the circuit, you'll see that one gets
initially brighter than the others, then it may even get dimmer as the
others "catch up" to finally achieve uniform brightness. That's because
even though they are "identical," there are slight differences in the
bulbs and the one with the highest initial resistance and/or the
quickest heating filament will absorb most of the power till the others
heat up. I noticed this effect when I was about 6 years old, though I
had no idea what was causing it; I just knew I could rearrange the
order of the bulbs in series till they lit up from left to right and it
was pretty cool.

%mod%

John B wrote:

Impressive commentary! Thank you for clarifying the triac methodology.
That was quite the observation for a 6 year old. I trust that was quite a
while ago...!!g So that speaks well of your memory, too. Seems you were
a "natural."
I have an attractive light fixture, which has been dark for years. The
fancy bulbs required for it burned out within days of
installation...ridiculous. Got tired of feeding cash into this fruitless
effort. There are four bulb sockets. The fixture is controlled by two
3-way switches; it's at the base of stairs.


Hi, I told you already, take a look at thermistor or diode "bulb savers"
they'll give you a soft start or the effect of reduced voltage you need.
They are available to suit both standard and candelabra base sizes

Here's some:

http://www.acehardware.com/sm-lemra-...i-1379643.html

and:

http://www.scottenterprises.com/cgi-...oduct_Code=220

For the little money they cost it's worth giving them a try before
bothering to start rewiring stuff, isn't it?

Or, you could try the solution which I described as working for me in
our bathroom. use a conventional multi location toggle switch control
system and add a lamp dimmer just ahead of the bulbs, located out of
easy reach, and set it to "90%" or so.

You are correct about there being no easy way to just use two off the
shelf slide dimmers to accomplish a soft start from either of two
locations without adding a LOT of complicated electronics.

HTH,

Jeff


--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
wrote:

snipped

Some of these ideas can be demonstrated by experimenting with bulbs
in
series, which is effectively a single filament divided into
segments.
Say you have a car battery (12V) and 5 to 10 identical automotive
bulbs
in series. snip

I've never noticed that effect, but it seems possible.

I'm guessing it was holiday lighting (Xmas tree strings) you were
experimenting with when you were around age 6, right?

I did some of that with Xmas lites, yes, but my parents indulged me
with electrical stuff from the hardware store as well. I had a bunch or
light sockets, battery holders, switches, wires etc. that I could play
with, even some "house current" stuff. I only blew the fuses a few
times. I also dumpster dived a lot, for example I'd scrounge phonograph
turntables as flywheels for DC motor/generator systems, which taught me
something about regenerative braking.

I'm having a hard time visualizing what ten 12 volt bulbs across a 12

volt battery would end up doing. Wouldn't seem like there'd be enough

voltage available to produce anything other than infrared "uniform
brightness" with just 1.2 volts across each bulb, or did you misspeak

about the battery's voltage?

The bulbs are a dull red-to-orange at 1/10th to 1/5th voltage, and it
takes one-to-several seconds to warm up to final brightness, but they
generally do light. I said "5 to 10 bulbs" because it depends somewhat
on the particular traits of the bulbs. By adding more in series, each
runs at a lower voltage and takes longer to come to final brightness,
such that your eye has enough time to follow the changing luminosity,
up to the point where there are too many to see them light at all.

Oh, and my face is red for geting lured into agreeing that triacs
"switch on" at zero crossings. I know better, but it's been so long
since I built anything with triacs that I forgot that they "latch on"

once triggered and have to wait for a current zero crossing to drop
out.

Yeah, well, the memory is the second thing to go, and I can't remember
what the first one is.

%mod%

Yeah, me too. Never forget the time I had my mom by me a plug fuse,
with me thinking it was a different kind of light bulb.

Screwed it into the lamp; turned the switch... and;

well, you know the rest.

Fuses actually do make great light bulbs; they just don't last very
long.

John B wrote:
Impressive commentary! Thank you for clarifying the triac
methodology.
That was quite the observation for a 6 year old. I trust that was
quite a
while ago...!!g So that speaks well of your memory, too. Seems
you were
a "natural."

Thanks for the complement. I was a natural at some things but a failure
at others.

I have an attractive light fixture, which has been dark for years.
[snip]

This thread has renewed my interest in reactivating the fixture. I
will put
a standard (non 3-way) slide-dimmer at each of the two switch
locations.
SLIDE is critical, to force the user to warm the bulb filaments
gradually.

I like the Lutron sliders for the reason you describe.

The catch is that TWO DIMMERS cannot cohabitate in the same 3-way
circuit;
because it seems highly imprudent to put two dimmers in series. Your
rebuttal would be welcome.

Technically I think dimmers in series should work, but of course if you
turn any one off, the other(s) cannot turn the system back on. With
dimmers in parallel (with each other), all would have to be turned off
to make the light go out. So I agree it's imprudent.

I have Lutron 3-way sliders which push on and off. Each slider teams up
with a normal 3-way at the other side of the room. When I turn the
lights off at the slider by pushing it, I place the slider in the 60%
position so that when I turn it on at the other switch, I don't get
blinded by the bright light. It has also anecdotally lengthened the
life of the bulbs, several years since a replacement.

So...
I'll should split the fixture sockets. Two sockets will be
controlled by
one slide switch; the other two sockets by the other switch. This
way, at
least there will be some light, if only one switch is slid to its
"on"
position.

Another option is to use X10 or remote-multiway type dimmers. The ones
I like best are the Smarthome ToggleLinc line, because they use regular
switchplates. I've used their Togglelinc PLC (X10) switches to control
compact fluorescents. Anyway, if you don't want/need to have X10
compatibility, then by using the same wires as a "regular" 3-way
configuration, you can use the "hardwired only" Deluxe Dimmer 23897
with the multiway companion 23892

http://www.smarthome.com/23897w.html
http://www.smarthome.com/23892w.html

I'm seriously thinking of doing this myself, because the dimming
function would then be available at both switch locations.

%mod%

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote

Hi, I told you already, take a look at thermistor or diode "bulb savers"
they'll give you a soft start or the effect of reduced voltage you need.
They are available to suit both standard and candelabra base sizes

Here's some:

http://www.acehardware.com/sm-lemra-...i-1379643.html

and:


http://www.scottenterprises.com/cgi-...oduct_Code=220


Thanks! I inquired with a couple of lighting and electrical shops, and they
hadn't heard of these.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Hi, I told you already, take a look at thermistor or diode "bulb
savers"
they'll give you a soft start or the effect of reduced voltage you
need.
They are available to suit both standard and candelabra base sizes

Here's some:


http://www.acehardware.com/sm-lemra-...i-1379643.html

and:


http://www.scottenterprises.com/cgi-...oduct_Code=220

For the little money they cost it's worth giving them a try before
bothering to start rewiring stuff, isn't it?

Those are apparently the "diode" version of bulb saver, not the
thermistor. According to Don Klipstein's webpage (somebody already
mentioned that link, here it is again,
http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html), they reduce light output by
70 percent while reducing power by 40%. So that's 30% of the light for
60% of the power, meaning you're paying twice as much to get the same
light. The same page explains the tradeoff of bulb life and bulb
efficiency: with the electricity cost far exceeding the cost of the
bulb, it appears these devices are false economy.

The only non-diode, drop-in soft starters I could find were Bulb Boss
and Longlite

http://www.beacon-light.com/bulbboss.htm
http://longlite.beyourown.net/PowerControllers.aspx

I think I remember seeing Bulb Boss drop-in dimmers at home depot.

%mod%

wrote:


snipped


The bulbs are a dull red-to-orange at 1/10th to 1/5th voltage, and it
takes one-to-several seconds to warm up to final brightness, but they
generally do light. I said "5 to 10 bulbs" because it depends somewhat
on the particular traits of the bulbs. By adding more in series, each
runs at a lower voltage and takes longer to come to final brightness,
such that your eye has enough time to follow the changing luminosity,
up to the point where there are too many to see them light at all.


You spoke the truth and tought me something I didn't know.

I wouldn't have believed that there'd be any light in the visible
spectrum at 1/10 voltage, but I just played around with a few small "12
volt" automotive bulbs and my bench supply and they all put out a red
glow visible in dim light right down to 1 volt; and some even below.

I found one bulb which at 0.7 volts produced a little dull red in the
middle of the filament (The furthest point from where the filament
supports were sinking the heat away.)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

I wouldn't have believed that there'd be any light in the visible
spectrum at 1/10 voltage, but I just played around with a few small
"12
volt" automotive bulbs and my bench supply and they all put out a red

glow visible in dim light right down to 1 volt; and some even below.

I suppose it's because as the filament is cooler running at reduced
voltage, the resistance drops, so the current falls off more gradually
than voltage, and the power and filament temperature are decidedly
nonlinear functions of voltage.

%mod%

Unknown wrote:
I am not an electrician, but maybe check to make sure you are using
the
right size watts and bulb type for the outlet.


You're right, you're no electrician.

And what wattage do you recommend?