On 8/26/20 1:32 AM, micky wrote:

[snip]

We had to rescan earlier this year, just because of a new subchannel
(56-4, AntennaTV) that the local NBC station added.

So does that mean if you hadn't rescanned, you'd still have gotten all
the channels but that one.

Yes, it was just that one that needed to be added.

Could you have just punched in 56,4 and the tv would find it, and then
ou could add it to the internal list, but they said to rescan because
that's a simple instruction and applies to everyone, whereas the
instructions for adding a station vary by tv.

I can't try 56.4 now, since its already scanned (checking it would
require disconnecting the antenna, rescanning, then reconnecting the
antenna. Too much to do for something that probably won't worh and won't
help if it does). Trying 22.4 (the physical channel is 22) is ignored
(on all t TVs I tried).

[snip]



--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On 8/26/20 8:00 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Oh, I think I see. You were referring to a TV that has a single tuner that
can be used for cable _or_ OTA. I've never seen such a thing, but I assume
they exist.

They existed decades ago when NTSC TVs just had RF input and cable boxes had
RF output. Then you had Mark's scenario, but that's been a very long time
ago, NTSC broadcast ended over a decade ago.

Newer ones are capable of NTSC, ATSC, and QAM. This would be capable of
tuning cable channels if not for encryption (corporate paranoia).

NTSC BROADCAST ended, but NTSC is still usable in local wired systems. I
still use a NTSC modulator to make the cameras at my doors visible on
any TV (as well as some broadcast ATSC). I am considering replacing the
modulator, but ATSC modulators are still expensive.

BTW, NTSC and ATSC tuners still go up to channel 69 (but not 83).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:45:45 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:20:52 -0400,
wrote:


envision people with antenna rotators when they designed their set but
I bet that is a pretty small market share.

And how much does it cost to put in the OTA software?. Almost nothing.
To put in the OTA hardware? About a dollar.

If you sell a million TVs that is a million dollars. It is like GM not
putting the 87 cent detent in the ignition switches in a bunch of
cars. If they don't think they need it, the bean counters say don't do
it.

You could use the same logic about every feature in the tv and when you
were done all the t v's would be the lowest priced model, no good ones.


I guess you need to ask Sony. I don't design TVs but since the feature
you want isn't there, I think you already have the answer.

What matters is what they actually do, not what some cost cuttting
theory says they might do.

I say what they do is charge 287 dollars for the tv instead 286.

The extended cost is more than that but there are people who shop down
to the last dollar.




I was just reading an article that says 17% of American households are
OTA only but most are city dwellers where an omnidirectional stick up
antenna from Amazon works.

Do you think their money is no good becase they are city dwellers? Do
you think they make different models for the city and the country?

And 17% is plenty.

I think the number of customers using rotors does not justify that
software, more correctly Sony doesn't think it does.

We're not talking about rotors, but about OTA tuners.

The OP was asking why he couldn't save all of the dead channels on a
scan and the only reason he would want to is when you are using a
rotor.


You were the one who brought up 17% and I never for a moment thought
that was the percentage that had rotors. My answer had nothing to do
with rotors.

Using a rotor doesn't add anything to the cost of a tv tuner.

City folks can usually get a picture with a coat hanger.

Regardless of antenna, they can't get any OTA stations if they don't
also have an OTA tuner. You were claiming they didn't have an OTA
tuner because it added a little to the price.

Price a "monitor" vs a TV to see the difference. Both will have
several inputs although HDMI has become the standard these days. It is
getting harder to find VGA on anything much bigger than 20" since new
PCs also output HDMI.
You can find 70 inch and larger "monitors" these days.
If you are a cable, streamer or satellite customer, a monitor is all
you need. There are a lot of people using OTA but not enough to scare
Comcast, Dish or Direct TV.
As soon as you get away from the transmitter more than 30 miles or so
OTA is about as unreliable as DSS. It screws up in the rain and
sometime for no apparent reason. I have an antenna, rated "50+ miles"
35 feet above ground in a place as flat as a pancake and my OTA signal
still breaks up a lot from towers 32 miles away. This is the 3d style
of antenna I have tried. (new amps, new cables each time) My TiVo says
I have a signal strength of 60-70% so it in not overloading the front
end.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 05:56:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 9:18:53 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 8/24/20 3:54 PM, micky wrote:

[snip]

It doesn't sound like it with the software on your set. TVs are not
really designed for OTA it seems.

Nonsense. They wouldn't scan multiple cable inputs eiher, without
erasing the earlier ones.

Some (most?) cable systems now encrypt everything, requiring you to use
their box instead of the TV tuner.

Because of this I can get BOTH cable and antenna on the same TV.

They add it as an afterthought and
only meet the minimum government requirement.

So the TV makers were planning to ignore the millions of people who
didn't have cable. LOL

So antenna users need an add-on tuner and those without an antenna don't
have to pay for it.

I would expect that the HDTV tuner part doesn't add much real cost to
a TV, that most of it is integrated into the chipset to begin with.
The cost to the manufacturers and selling chain to have two similar
models, one with and one without probably exceeds the cost of putting
it in both.

Since they do sell "monitor only" without the tuner somewhat cheaper,
that does not seem to be true. My bet is the tuner is at least one
more chip, maybe more plus the other hardware to feed it.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 06:06:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 5:00:04 PM UTC-4, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:31:19 -0400, Peter
wrote:

On 8/24/2020 12:03 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have an antenna tower with a antenna rotor.
How do I auto program the channels with the rotor in use ?
Every time you start the programming, it wipes the previous channels.

I want to be able to set the antenna in one direction, Search ...
Set the antenna in another direction, Search ...

It's going to be the same set of answers you got when you asked this
question a few weeks ago.

Disconnect and optionally remove the rotor. Add a second (or more) antenna
and use a combiner so that your tuner app thinks it's all a single antenna.

Use one of the OTA antenna websites to determine where the stations are
broadcasting from in your area.

Have you tried mounting an omnidirectional antenna on your tower,

Even without the other steps below, doesn't this sound like a lot more
time and effort than adding stations manually?


perhaps with a low noise uhf/vhf amplifier, connecting that setup to
your TV temporarily, re-scanning, and seeing whether you receive all the
stations you desire/expect? You might even be able to find someone to
loan those items to you, or allow you to purchase them with a guaranteed
refund if they are "unsatisfactory". Assuming it does, then disconnect
that setup, reconnect your rotor controlled directional antenna and dial
the rotor direction for each station providing the best reception. Web
sites, such as /www.antennasdirect.com/transmitter-locator.html
www.antennaweb.org and others easily located with a web search can help
you determine if the strategy has been successful.

You would sure think so. Of course stations are added, move, etc so it may
need updating occasionally, but still, sounds like manually adding them is
the way I would do it. You'd think TV manufacturers might have thought of
this and provided a feature where it will save what's there, but allow
you to move the antenna and scan those in too. But I guess not.

The thing is digital TV does not use channels the way NTSC did.
Channel 20 may not actually be in the band the old channel 20 used,
and that shows up particularly apparent with the 13 and below channels
that seem like they should be VHF but they are usually (always?) up in
the UHF band. That is why you need a scan.
The easiest to understand is when you get that notice you need to
rescan your local channels because the frequency changed. It is still
channel 20 on your TV but it is not really where you would think
channel 20 would be. Channel numbers are just software these days.

In article ,
says...

Since they do sell "monitor only" without the tuner somewhat cheaper,
that does not seem to be true. My bet is the tuner is at least one
more chip, maybe more plus the other hardware to feed it.




It must not take much more for a tuner as you can buy the dongles for
about $ 15 that you plug into a computer and pickup TV stations. I
bought one a good many years back that does both types of TV signals and
the FM radio stations. It is barely larger than the USB memory sticks
and plugs in like them. Works very well.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:19:16 -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 8/25/20 8:51 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:

[snip]

The only tuner I have ever seen was behind the F-59 connector. It has
a wide enough mouth to see all of the broadcast channels and the cable
channels if they are not encrypted.

OTA signals would require an ATSC tuner, while (encrypted/unencrypted)
cable signals would require a QAM tuner, right?

An encrypted cable signal might be TUNABLE with that QAM tuner, but the
result would be useless.

CableCARD used to be a thing, but I haven't heard much about it recently.
It's easier to just use the STB.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:19:16 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 8/25/20 8:51 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:

[snip]

The only tuner I have ever seen was behind the F-59 connector. It has
a wide enough mouth to see all of the broadcast channels and the cable
channels if they are not encrypted.

OTA signals would require an ATSC tuner, while (encrypted/unencrypted)
cable signals would require a QAM tuner, right?

An encrypted cable signal might be TUNABLE with that QAM tuner, but the
result would be useless.

AFAIK, both tuners can be
consolidated into a single module with a single 75-Ohm F59 input connector,
although I don't remember seeing that configuration.

It probably can't accept both connections at the same time. This would
require combining the signals, probably impossible because of frequency
conflicts.

My TV does REMEMBER both (OTA and cable) but only one can be connected
at a time.

I was using a signal combiner to feed a couple of Dish boxes, a Replay
and an agile modulator to a bunch of TVs some years back and it worked
but I had to be sure the modulator was outputting a channel the Dish
box wasn't.
RTV = Ch 3
Dish 1 = Ch 76
Dish 2 + Ch 79
PC via agile modulator = Ch 69


I never tried combining all of that with OTA tho.

On 8/25/2020 6:14 AM, Peter wrote:
On 8/24/2020 4:58 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:31:19 -0400, Peter
wrote:

On 8/24/2020 12:03 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have an antenna tower with a antenna rotor.
How do I auto program the channels with the rotor in use ?
Every time you start the programming, it wipes the previous channels.

I want to be able to set the antenna in one direction, Search ...
Set the antenna in another direction, Search ...

It's going to be the same set of answers you got when you asked this
question a few weeks ago.

Disconnect and optionally remove the rotor. Add a second (or more)
antenna
and use a combiner so that your tuner app thinks it's all a single
antenna.

Use one of the OTA antenna websites to determine where the stations are
broadcasting from in your area.

Have you tried mounting an omnidirectional antenna on your tower,

Even without the other steps below, doesn't this sound like a lot more
time and effort than adding stations manually?



I've never owned either a digital to analog TV adapter (remember those
from the earliest days of digital broadcasting?) or a digital TV that
allowed me to manually add a channel I couldn't receive during a
complete scan/rescan.* I could remove/add channels only to the list of
channels that were detected during the most recent complete scan. That's
why when a digital station changes it's broadcast frequency, you need to
do a rescan.* You can't just punch in the new frequency on the remote
and receive the previously unused channel.* The OP is using a
directional antenna on a rotor that only detects the subset of all
potential channels that could be received, depending on which direction
he's pointing the antenna. He's trying to get all potentially viewable
stations on his scanned list, regardless of their transmitter's compass
heading from his antenna.

You don not have some kind of edit channels menu in the setup options of
your TVs?

On 8/25/2020 12:46 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 24 Aug 2020 11:03:54 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have an antenna tower with a antenna rotor.
How do I auto program the channels with the rotor in use ?
Every time you start the programming, it wipes the previous channels.

I want to be able to set the antenna in one direction, Search ...
Set the antenna in another direction, Search ...

It's going to be the same set of answers you got when you asked this
question a few weeks ago.

Disconnect and optionally remove the rotor. Add a second (or more) antenna
and use a combiner so that your tuner app thinks it's all a single antenna.

I remembered the previous question but didn't realize it was the same
poster. And I remembered the multiple antennal idea, which I thought
was a good one, but I didn't suggest it here because he has a tower. I
figured antennas in his attic couldn't compete with a tower, unless
maybe he pointed the attic antenna to the nearest city and saved the
tower for distant ones. He could do that but I don't think he'll want
to.


He likely could add more antennas to a tower, all attacked on the single
top pole pointed appropriately. Then he would not have to make sure the
antenna is pointed right for every program he wants to record. It sure
worked fine with my attic antennas.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:51:11 -0500, Jim Joyce posted for all of us to digest...


No, but on each of my last 4 TV's there has been two tuners, each with its
own input, and that seems to be different for Mark and his TV.


Do you have picture in a picture or whatever it's called now?

--
Tekkie

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:35:30 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:51:11 -0500, Jim Joyce posted for all of us to digest...


No, but on each of my last 4 TV's there has been two tuners, each with its
own input, and that seems to be different for Mark and his TV.


Do you have picture in a picture or whatever it's called now?

I don't, but that could be because I only use the remote that came with the
STB and the remote for the AV receiver. I know the original TV remotes have
a lot more features, like direct access to Netflix and a dozen other
streaming services, but those remotes are put away somewhere.

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:28:01 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:19:16 -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 8/25/20 8:51 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:

[snip]

The only tuner I have ever seen was behind the F-59 connector. It has
a wide enough mouth to see all of the broadcast channels and the cable
channels if they are not encrypted.

OTA signals would require an ATSC tuner, while (encrypted/unencrypted)
cable signals would require a QAM tuner, right?

An encrypted cable signal might be TUNABLE with that QAM tuner, but the
result would be useless.

CableCARD used to be a thing, but I haven't heard much about it recently.
It's easier to just use the STB.

TiVo still uses them.

On 8/26/2020 1:50 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/25/2020 6:14 AM, Peter wrote:
On 8/24/2020 4:58 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:31:19 -0400, Peter
wrote:

On 8/24/2020 12:03 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have an antenna tower with a antenna rotor.
How do I auto program the channels with the rotor in use ?
Every time you start the programming, it wipes the previous channels.

I want to be able to set the antenna in one direction, Search ...
Set the antenna in another direction, Search ...

It's going to be the same set of answers you got when you asked this
question a few weeks ago.

Disconnect and optionally remove the rotor. Add a second (or more)
antenna
and use a combiner so that your tuner app thinks it's all a single
antenna.

Use one of the OTA antenna websites to determine where the stations
are
broadcasting from in your area.

Have you tried mounting an omnidirectional antenna on your tower,

Even without the other steps below, doesn't this sound like a lot more
time and effort than adding stations manually?



I've never owned either a digital to analog TV adapter (remember those
from the earliest days of digital broadcasting?) or a digital TV that
allowed me to manually add a channel I couldn't receive during a
complete scan/rescan.* I could remove/add channels only to the list of
channels that were detected during the most recent complete scan.
That's why when a digital station changes it's broadcast frequency,
you need to do a rescan.* You can't just punch in the new frequency on
the remote and receive the previously unused channel.* The OP is using
a directional antenna on a rotor that only detects the subset of all
potential channels that could be received, depending on which
direction he's pointing the antenna. He's trying to get all
potentially viewable stations on his scanned list, regardless of their
transmitter's compass heading from his antenna.

You don not have some kind of edit channels menu in the setup options of
*your TVs?

As I just said above, "I could remove/add channels only to the list of
channels that were detected during the most recent complete scan."
That's done, of course, via the setup options of my TV. This limited
channel "editing" capability has been consistent in my experience with
Radio Shack digital to analog TV converter boxes, Toshiba HDTVs, and
Samsung HDTVs. In all three cases, using the remote control, keying in
a digital channel not on the most recently scanned channel list, the TV
(or adapter) tunes to the channel on the scanned list that's closest in
virtual channel number to the channel I try to receive. Example: my
most recent scanned list contains 2.1 7.1 and 9.1 even though I know
that if I realign my antenna, I could receive 4.1 but not 2.1, 7.1. or
9.1. If I tune to 2.1, it comes in. If I tune to 7.1 it comes in.
However, if I either key in or use the channel up/down select switch on
the remote to tune to 3.1 or 4.1, 2.1 comes in. And if I tune to 5.1 or
6.1, 7.1 comes in. If I realign my antenna to the position that enables
4.1 to be scanned-in, but not 2.1 or 7.1, and don't re-scan, when I try
to key-in 4.1, nothing comes in, because it's not on the most recent
scanned list and neither 2.1 nor 7.1 can be received with the antenna in
the position needed to receive 4.1. I believe the OP experienced the
same behavior and posted to solicit possible solutions for the problem.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 12:19:23 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 8/25/20 8:51 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:

[snip]

The only tuner I have ever seen was behind the F-59 connector. It has
a wide enough mouth to see all of the broadcast channels and the cable
channels if they are not encrypted.

OTA signals would require an ATSC tuner, while (encrypted/unencrypted)
cable signals would require a QAM tuner, right?

An encrypted cable signal might be TUNABLE with that QAM tuner, but the
result would be useless.

Correct. Which is why some devices have a CableCard slot. It's a
PCMCIA size slot that a card from your cable company goes into. It
performs the de-encryption that the cable box normally would. I have
one in my Tivo. A side benefit is that a cable box with storage from
the cable company is several dollars a month more than the CC, so I
save that each month.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 1:19:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 05:56:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 24, 2020 at 9:18:53 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 8/24/20 3:54 PM, micky wrote:

[snip]

It doesn't sound like it with the software on your set. TVs are not
really designed for OTA it seems.

Nonsense. They wouldn't scan multiple cable inputs eiher, without
erasing the earlier ones.

Some (most?) cable systems now encrypt everything, requiring you to use
their box instead of the TV tuner.

Because of this I can get BOTH cable and antenna on the same TV.

They add it as an afterthought and
only meet the minimum government requirement.

So the TV makers were planning to ignore the millions of people who
didn't have cable. LOL

So antenna users need an add-on tuner and those without an antenna don't
have to pay for it.

I would expect that the HDTV tuner part doesn't add much real cost to
a TV, that most of it is integrated into the chipset to begin with.
The cost to the manufacturers and selling chain to have two similar
models, one with and one without probably exceeds the cost of putting
it in both.

Since they do sell "monitor only" without the tuner somewhat cheaper,
that does not seem to be true. My bet is the tuner is at least one
more chip, maybe more plus the other hardware to feed it.

I don't disagree, but I would suspect the cost of that extra chip/hdw isn't
much. You have similar crammed into cell phones, for example.
And when you compare it to the cost of having to support a additional
model through all the distribution channels, the costs to stores, etc,
it's probably a losing proposition. However some of those costs are
hidden, eg the cost to the retail store for the floor space, educating
the employees, time wasted explaining to customers the differences, etc.
For whatever reason, TVs without tuners don't seem to be very popular.
Earlier in the move to ATSC FCC mandated that all TVs had to have ATSC tuners.
If TVs are available now without, I guess they must have rescinded that.

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 1:26:13 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Since they do sell "monitor only" without the tuner somewhat cheaper,
that does not seem to be true. My bet is the tuner is at least one
more chip, maybe more plus the other hardware to feed it.




It must not take much more for a tuner as you can buy the dongles for
about $ 15 that you plug into a computer and pickup TV stations. I
bought one a good many years back that does both types of TV signals and
the FM radio stations. It is barely larger than the USB memory sticks
and plugs in like them. Works very well.

Good point, it supports what I said. And that's for a separate dongle,
that selling price has to include more than just the cost of adding a tuner
function to a TV. Back 15 years ago when the conversion was going on,
the govt was giving them away for free and the cost must be lower today
than back then.

On 8/26/20 12:25 PM, wrote:

[snip]

The thing is digital TV does not use channels the way NTSC did.
Channel 20 may not actually be in the band the old channel 20 used,
and that shows up particularly apparent with the 13 and below channels
that seem like they should be VHF but they are usually (always?) up in
the UHF band. That is why you need a scan.
The easiest to understand is when you get that notice you need to
rescan your local channels because the frequency changed. It is still
channel 20 on your TV but it is not really where you would think
channel 20 would be. Channel numbers are just software these days.

The ABC station in this area is on channel 7. That's what it says
(virtual channel). It also uses the PHYSICAL channel 7 (VHF-Hi).

The other channels are UHF. Virtual channels 19,51,56 and physical
channels 15,20,22. Two of these (I forget which two) were changed a
couple of years ago requiring a rescan.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On 8/26/20 12:26 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

It must not take much more for a tuner as you can buy the dongles for
about $ 15 that you plug into a computer and pickup TV stations. I
bought one a good many years back that does both types of TV signals and
the FM radio stations. It is barely larger than the USB memory sticks
and plugs in like them. Works very well.

The FM broadcast frequencies are just above TV channel 6, making it
possible to use the same antenna. I use my antenna to get FM as well as TV.

BTW, before digital TV, I knew someone who got TV channel 6 audio on a
FM radio.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On 8/26/20 12:28 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:

[snip]

CableCARD used to be a thing, but I haven't heard much about it recently.
It's easier to just use the STB.

A couple of my cable boxes look like they have cards in them, although I
have never handled the cards separately.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020 at 2:04:50 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 8/25/2020 12:46 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 24 Aug 2020 11:03:54 -0500, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have an antenna tower with a antenna rotor.
How do I auto program the channels with the rotor in use ?
Every time you start the programming, it wipes the previous channels.

I want to be able to set the antenna in one direction, Search ...
Set the antenna in another direction, Search ...

It's going to be the same set of answers you got when you asked this
question a few weeks ago.

Disconnect and optionally remove the rotor. Add a second (or more) antenna
and use a combiner so that your tuner app thinks it's all a single antenna.

I remembered the previous question but didn't realize it was the same
poster. And I remembered the multiple antennal idea, which I thought
was a good one, but I didn't suggest it here because he has a tower. I
figured antennas in his attic couldn't compete with a tower, unless
maybe he pointed the attic antenna to the nearest city and saved the
tower for distant ones. He could do that but I don't think he'll want
to.


He likely could add more antennas to a tower, all attacked on the single
top pole pointed appropriately. Then he would not have to make sure the
antenna is pointed right for every program he wants to record. It sure
worked fine with my attic antennas.

A related issue, with a rotor out there in the weather, how long does a
rotor actually last? Plus it would seem to be a PIA to have to rotate
the antenna and wait when you want to go from channel to channel.

In Mark Lloyd writes:

[snip]

The FM broadcast frequencies are just above TV channel 6, making it
possible to use the same antenna. I use my antenna to get FM as well as TV.

BTW, before digital TV, I knew someone who got TV channel 6 audio on a
FM radio.

This is how some FM broadcasters get around the shortage of valid FM
radio frequency slots.

They'll have a television transmitter on VHF channel 6, but the real
purpose is... to be able to broadcast an FM audio stream
at 87.75 FM.

(Most, although far from all, standard FM receivers, which are
supposed to go "down to" 88 Mhz, can pick this up).

There's a good Wiki writeup at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channe..._United_States

Note: the loophole allowing legacy channel 6 stations
to continue broadcasting analog transmissions on that
frequency is scheduled to sunset in July, 2021


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 8/26/20 12:33 PM, wrote:

[snip]

I was using a signal combiner to feed a couple of Dish boxes, a Replay
and an agile modulator to a bunch of TVs some years back and it worked
but I had to be sure the modulator was outputting a channel the Dish
box wasn't.
RTV = Ch 3
Dish 1 = Ch 76
Dish 2 + Ch 79
PC via agile modulator = Ch 69


I never tried combining all of that with OTA tho.

I used to do that with cable, but it was difficult dealing with the
cable company making changes and with digital it's hard to tell what
actual channels are in use. I then ran a separate cable for CATV. My
modulator now outputs OTA channels which are mixed with OTA from an
antenna. This seems relatively stable. Broadcast is limited to channel
36 (which I have a low-pass filter for). My modulator is set to channel
60 (selected one of ReplayTV, DVD/Blu-Ray, cable, Roku) and channel 62
(security cameras). All my TVs can tune up to channel 69.

Note the filter is important so you don't broadcast your own channels.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On 8/27/20 9:26 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Earlier in the move to ATSC FCC mandated that all TVs had to have ATSC tuners.
If TVs are available now without, I guess they must have rescinded that.

It was that the TV had to have an ATSC tuner IF it had a NTSC tuner.
Tunerless TVs got around the requirement.

BTW, at the time I remember seeing DVD recorders without tuners.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Religion is all bunk." -- Thomas Edison

On 8/27/2020 6:48 AM, Peter wrote:
On 8/26/2020 1:50 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/25/2020 6:14 AM, Peter wrote:
On 8/24/2020 4:58 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:31:19 -0400, Peter
wrote:

On 8/24/2020 12:03 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

We have an antenna tower with a antenna rotor.
How do I auto program the channels with the rotor in use ?
Every time you start the programming, it wipes the previous
channels.

I want to be able to set the antenna in one direction, Search ...
Set the antenna in another direction, Search ...

It's going to be the same set of answers you got when you asked this
question a few weeks ago.

Disconnect and optionally remove the rotor. Add a second (or more)
antenna
and use a combiner so that your tuner app thinks it's all a single
antenna.

Use one of the OTA antenna websites to determine where the
stations are
broadcasting from in your area.

Have you tried mounting an omnidirectional antenna on your tower,

Even without the other steps below, doesn't this sound like a lot more
time and effort than adding stations manually?



I've never owned either a digital to analog TV adapter (remember
those from the earliest days of digital broadcasting?) or a digital
TV that allowed me to manually add a channel I couldn't receive
during a complete scan/rescan.* I could remove/add channels only to
the list of channels that were detected during the most recent
complete scan. That's why when a digital station changes it's
broadcast frequency, you need to do a rescan.* You can't just punch
in the new frequency on the remote and receive the previously unused
channel.* The OP is using a directional antenna on a rotor that only
detects the subset of all potential channels that could be received,
depending on which direction he's pointing the antenna. He's trying
to get all potentially viewable stations on his scanned list,
regardless of their transmitter's compass heading from his antenna.

You don not have some kind of edit channels menu in the setup options
of **your TVs?

As I just said above, "I could remove/add channels only to the list of
channels that were detected during the most recent complete scan."
That's done, of course, via the setup options of my TV.* This limited
channel "editing" capability has been consistent in my experience with
Radio Shack digital to analog TV converter boxes, Toshiba HDTVs, and
Samsung HDTVs.* In all three cases, using the remote control, keying in
a digital channel not on the most recently scanned channel list, the TV
(or adapter) tunes to the channel on the scanned list that's closest in
virtual channel number to the channel I try to receive.* Example: my
most recent scanned list contains 2.1* 7.1* and 9.1 even though I know
that if I realign my antenna, I could receive 4.1 but not 2.1, 7.1. or
9.1.* If I tune to 2.1, it comes in.* If I tune to 7.1 it comes in.
However, if I either key in or use the channel up/down select switch on
the remote to tune to 3.1 or 4.1, 2.1 comes in.* And if I tune to 5.1 or
6.1, 7.1 comes in.* If I realign my antenna to the position that enables
4.1 to be scanned-in, but not 2.1 or 7.1, and don't re-scan, when I try
to key-in 4.1, nothing comes in, because it's not on the most recent
scanned list and neither 2.1 nor 7.1 can be received with the antenna in
the position needed to receive 4.1.* I believe the OP experienced the
same behavior and posted to solicit possible solutions for the problem.

If you've gotten no help from the TV manufacturer, your only solution is
likely the multiple antennas. It worked great for me. You can mount them
all on one antenna mast, one above the other. I did it with 2 additional
antennas with large UHF sections someone was throwing away, and just
removed broken VHF arms that were not needed anymore since most stations
are on UHF. I never need to worry about aiming the antenna for some
different station for a recording.

https://www.tablotv.com/blog/how-to-...le-directions/

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:16:47 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:45:45 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:20:52 -0400,
wrote:


envision people with antenna rotators when they designed their set but
I bet that is a pretty small market share.

And how much does it cost to put in the OTA software?. Almost nothing.
To put in the OTA hardware? About a dollar.

If you sell a million TVs that is a million dollars. It is like GM not
putting the 87 cent detent in the ignition switches in a bunch of
cars. If they don't think they need it, the bean counters say don't do
it.

You could use the same logic about every feature in the tv and when you
were done all the t v's would be the lowest priced model, no good ones.


I guess you need to ask Sony. I don't design TVs but since the feature
you want isn't there,

So YOU say.

I think you already have the answer.

No I don't. You're claiming no TV SONY makes includes an OTA tuner. I
don't think so.

What matters is what they actually do, not what some cost cuttting
theory says they might do.

I say what they do is charge 287 dollars for the tv instead 286.

The extended cost is more than that but there are people who shop down
to the last dollar.

Of course "there are people". Another sophistry-style sentence. There
are also people who buy very expensive tvs and at many different price
points in between.




I was just reading an article that says 17% of American households are
OTA only but most are city dwellers where an omnidirectional stick up
antenna from Amazon works.

Do you think their money is no good becase they are city dwellers? Do
you think they make different models for the city and the country?

And 17% is plenty.

I think the number of customers using rotors does not justify that
software, more correctly Sony doesn't think it does.

We're not talking about rotors, but about OTA tuners.

The OP was asking why he couldn't save all of the dead channels on a
scan and the only reason he would want to is when you are using a
rotor.

Even at the start that wasn't true. It was that the stations were in
different directions.

But even if you think so, that customers use rotors doesn't add anything
to the cost of tuners or tvs.


You were the one who brought up 17% and I never for a moment thought
that was the percentage that had rotors. My answer had nothing to do
with rotors.

Using a rotor doesn't add anything to the cost of a tv tuner.

City folks can usually get a picture with a coat hanger.

Regardless of antenna, they can't get any OTA stations if they don't
also have an OTA tuner. You were claiming they didn't have an OTA
tuner because it added a little to the price.

Price a "monitor" vs a TV to see the difference. Both will have
several inputs although HDMI has become the standard these days. It is
getting harder to find VGA on anything much bigger than 20" since new
PCs also output HDMI.
You can find 70 inch and larger "monitors" these days.
If you are a cable, streamer or satellite customer, a monitor is all
you need. There are a lot of people using OTA but not enough to scare
Comcast, Dish or Direct TV.
As soon as you get away from the transmitter more than 30 miles or so
OTA is about as unreliable as DSS. It screws up in the rain and
sometime for no apparent reason. I have an antenna, rated "50+ miles"
35 feet above ground in a place as flat as a pancake and my OTA signal
still breaks up a lot from towers 32 miles away. This is the 3d style
of antenna I have tried. (new amps, new cables each time) My TiVo says
I have a signal strength of 60-70% so it in not overloading the front
end.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 14:41:06 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:16:47 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:45:45 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:20:52 -0400,
wrote:


envision people with antenna rotators when they designed their set but
I bet that is a pretty small market share.

And how much does it cost to put in the OTA software?. Almost nothing.
To put in the OTA hardware? About a dollar.

If you sell a million TVs that is a million dollars. It is like GM not
putting the 87 cent detent in the ignition switches in a bunch of
cars. If they don't think they need it, the bean counters say don't do
it.

You could use the same logic about every feature in the tv and when you
were done all the t v's would be the lowest priced model, no good ones.


I guess you need to ask Sony. I don't design TVs but since the feature
you want isn't there,

So YOU say.

I think you already have the answer.

No I don't. You're claiming no TV SONY makes includes an OTA tuner. I
don't think so.

Try to keep up Mick. The conversation is about a tuner that remembers
channels that are dead on subsequent scans.


The OP was asking why he couldn't save all of the dead channels on a
scan and the only reason he would want to is when you are using a
rotor.

Even at the start that wasn't true. It was that the stations were in
different directions.

Then they are dead when the antenna isn't pointed at them. That was
his problem.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:52:51 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 8/26/20 12:25 PM, wrote:

[snip]

The thing is digital TV does not use channels the way NTSC did.
Channel 20 may not actually be in the band the old channel 20 used,
and that shows up particularly apparent with the 13 and below channels
that seem like they should be VHF but they are usually (always?) up in
the UHF band. That is why you need a scan.
The easiest to understand is when you get that notice you need to
rescan your local channels because the frequency changed. It is still
channel 20 on your TV but it is not really where you would think
channel 20 would be. Channel numbers are just software these days.

The ABC station in this area is on channel 7. That's what it says
(virtual channel). It also uses the PHYSICAL channel 7 (VHF-Hi).

That is very unusual. Don't be surprised if that changes soon. FCC
wants that VHF band back so they can sell it like the high UHF
channels.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:19:55 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 8/27/20 9:26 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Earlier in the move to ATSC FCC mandated that all TVs had to have ATSC tuners.
If TVs are available now without, I guess they must have rescinded that.

It was that the TV had to have an ATSC tuner IF it had a NTSC tuner.
Tunerless TVs got around the requirement.

BTW, at the time I remember seeing DVD recorders without tuners.

They get around the tuner requirement by calling them "monitors" and
for a given screen size they are cheaper. You can find a monitor as
big as any TV. It is going to be the same display. They even make them
"touch screen". Our village conference room has a 70" touch monitor.
It is really pretty cool. I did a water quality thing in there using
it and I liked it.