On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:44:58 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH more of the two clinically insane cretins' endless bull**** unread
again

--
Another typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots,
Birdbrain and Rodent Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rodent: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rodent: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rodent Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rodent Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

Message-ID:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 12:09:35 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane cretins' latest troll****

--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between the two resident idiots:

Birdbrain: "But imagine how cool it was to own slaves."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, right. Feed them, clothe them, and fix them when
they're broken.
After all, you paid good money for them. Then you've got to keep an eye
on them all the time."

Birdbrain: "Better than having to give them wages on top of that."

Senile Rodent: "Specially when they make more slaves for you
and produce their own food and clothes."

MID:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:57:26 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH more of the two clinically insane cretins' endless troll****

--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between Birdbrain and senile Rodent:

Senile Rodent: " Did you ever dig a hole to bury your own ****?"

Birdbrain: "I do if there's no flush toilet around."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, I prefer camping like that, off by myself with
no dunnys around and have always buried the ****."

MID:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 12:18:54 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

See above.

Why? Above, you are as much of a blithering idiot as below, just like him!
One doesn't even need to read all your **** anymore to know that you ONLY
produce endless ****, you clinically insane 85-year-old trolling senile
asshole!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 12:25:10 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Yes, but they mostly use gas

Oh, shut your stupid psychopathic gob finally, you retarded "all-knowing"
senile asshole and "expert" in EVERYTHING! tsk

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery, another brain dead,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


I have a heat pump.

No ****! Do you? Have you a brain, troll-feeding senile asshole?

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:45:32 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Not

LOL

No

LOL

There isnt

LOL

Makes more sense to

LOL

Take your meds, you clinically insane auto-contradicting senile pest! Guess
why NOBODY in real life talks to you?

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:30:48 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Like I said

No intelligent person gives a **** what you said or didn't say, you
nym-shifting, senile cretin!

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:47:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/10/2019 18:14, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

No one with a monniker like "A noiseless patient Spider" van possibly
have an IQ over 50

Quite possibly

What staggers me is the number of posters infesting this thread that I have
killfiled and thus never even see, at least under normal circumstances. When my
post initially failed to appear I looked on google groups and what I saw was
quite revealing

--

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 08:44:09 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 04:28, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Heat pumps loose efficency
Oh? Where does it go off to?
The pump has to work harder to extract fewer BTUs from the source
(outside air) so the rfficiency drops off. Significantly. GSHP suffers
much less from this as subterranean temp stays pretty steady.

In article ,
says...

GSHP systems work well - well below zero F. Ground Source Heat Pumps.
Early ones pumped water from a well. Most current units run a glycol
loop - some use horizontal loops but many now use vertical as they
need less real estate. Getting pretty common up here.



They may be getting to be common in the north. Many people do not have
the land area to install one. The GSHP will work very well as the
ground temperature is often around 55 deg F. Along the same line is
the ones that pump water out of one well and put it back in another.
Still not too practical for the average home owner.

The cost to install one may be another big factor. I have not looked
into that cost as where I live it does not get very cold for very long
at one time.

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 10:19:28 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

GSHP systems work well - well below zero F. Ground Source Heat Pumps.
Early ones pumped water from a well. Most current units run a glycol
loop - some use horizontal loops but many now use vertical as they
need less real estate. Getting pretty common up here.



They may be getting to be common in the north. Many people do not have
the land area to install one. The GSHP will work very well as the
ground temperature is often around 55 deg F. Along the same line is
the ones that pump water out of one well and put it back in another.
Still not too practical for the average home owner.

I've heard of one here in NJ, never seen one. The problem is that the
math is horrific. They cost so much, many times what a nat gas or oil system
would cost, that it's impossible to come out right side up over the life
of the system. They are attractive to environmentalists with deep pockets,
who think one system is going to matter.




The cost to install one may be another big factor. I have not looked
into that cost as where I live it does not get very cold for very long
at one time.

It is THE factor, the cost of the ground part is a disaster.
Plus you get to have guys tearing up your yard.

On 23/10/2019 09:30, Rod Speed wrote:


Like I said, by having a bigger heat exchanger outside
so that it doesn't get as cold and so doesn't freeze up.

But it's common in the UK for temperatures to fall below zero so unless
the box fitted external to the house is being heated it always has the
potential to freeze up irrespective of the size of the heat exchanger.

At some point the pump is extracting heat from cold air reducing the
temperature of the "exhaust".

It isnt the exhaust when its being used as a heater.

If you input air at say 0C and extract heat from it that colder air must
go somewhere within the heat pump box. The heat extracted is routed into
the house and generally in the case in the UK most probably in the form
of hot (warm) water.


Only if the temperature of the external heat exchanger gets below
freezing. It doesn't have to if the air outside isnt below freezing.
making the heat pump less efficient.

So an air sourced heat pump doesn't work well when you need it most as
the temperature approaches zero Celsius during the winter? In the UK
where price of building land is at a premium new builds are often on a
postage sized plot where ground sourced heat pumps may not be to viable.
Around my way many new builds are multiple flats without gardens. Heat
pumps (presumably air sourced) are being touted as being the green
solution for central heating in the UK for new builds.


Only if it doesn't have some way of getting the ice off
Once frozen, and in a long cold spell of weather, unless the icing up
is removed the heat pump
may not be providing any usefull gain.
But they all do have some way of getting rid of the ice.
Does de-icing rely on the efficiency dropping and so the external box
is being heated by the supplied power?

That's just one way of doing that. The other obvious alternative is to
reverse the process for a short while to mel the ice.

But after melting the ice and reverting back to supplying heat when the
outside temperature is still at, or close to, zero will it not
immediately freeze up again if there is enough moisture in the air? If
you have to heat an external box it be much more efficient to provide
direct electric heating within the building.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Like I said, by having a bigger heat exchanger outside
so that it doesn't get as cold and so doesn't freeze up.

But it's common in the UK for temperatures to fall below zero

Sure, that approach only works when the air temp doesn't,
but even on that frigid little soggy island, there are plenty
of time when the outside air temp isnt below zero so its
an approach which is worthwhile for the time when the
air temp is above zero.

so unless the box fitted external to the house is being heated it always
has the potential to freeze up irrespective of the size of the heat
exchanger.

Sure, but it does reduce the amount of time it needs to be heated.

At some point the pump is extracting heat from cold air reducing the
temperature of the "exhaust".

It isnt the exhaust when its being used as a heater.

If you input air at say 0C and extract heat from it that colder air must
go somewhere within the heat pump box. The heat extracted is routed into
the house

Sure, that was just a comment on the use of the term
exhaust. There is no exhaust involved with a winter
heat pump, the external heat exchanger is just that,
an external heat exchanger. The outside air doesn't
ever go inside the house so no exhaust is involved.

and generally in the case in the UK most probably in the form of hot
(warm) water.

Sure, but still no exhaust involved.

Only if the temperature of the external heat exchanger gets below
freezing. It doesn't have to if the air outside isnt below freezing.
making the heat pump less efficient.

So an air sourced heat pump doesn't work well when you need it most

That's arguable too. You normally need it most during
the day, not during the night when many/most have a
lower room temperature being delivered.

as the temperature approaches zero Celsius during the winter? In the UK
where price of building land is at a premium new builds are often on a
postage sized plot where ground sourced heat pumps may not be to viable.
Around my way many new builds are multiple flats without gardens. Heat
pumps (presumably air sourced) are being touted as being the green
solution for central heating in the UK for new builds.

Sure, like all sales spruiks, much of it is radically overstated,
but we arent discussing that, we are discussing whether its
possible to do air sourced heat pumps better so they work
better in winter than if you don't say have a bigger external
heat exchanger, That does work better when the air temp
isnt below zero and even in that soggy little frigid island,
there is quite a bit of time in winter where that is true.

Only if it doesn't have some way of getting the ice off

And the other obvious approach is to have the ice form
on what isnt the external heat exchanger so you can
still extract heat from the now dry air stream that is
passed over the heat pump external heat exchanger.

Once frozen, and in a long cold spell of weather, unless the icing up is
removed the heat pump may not be providing any usefull gain.

But they all do have some way of getting rid of the ice.

And someone has said that their work did have an air sourced
heat pump in that soggy little frigid island that did work fine
even tho it was clearly getting rid of the ice at times.

Does de-icing rely on the efficiency dropping and so the external box is
being heated by the supplied power?

That's just one way of doing that. The other obvious alternative is to
reverse the process for a short while to mel the ice.

But after melting the ice and reverting back to supplying heat when the
outside temperature is still at, or close to, zero will it not immediately
freeze up again if there is enough moisture in the air?

Yes, but there clearly is time when its still pumping heat into the house
etc.

And reversing the process is better than just melting the ice
using purely resistive heating because reversing the system
still has the higher performance heat pump involved.

If you have to heat an external box it be much more efficient to provide
direct electric heating within the building.

No it isnt, because of the COP that you get with heat pumps.

And there are a variety of ways of avoiding the ice forming
ON THE EXTERNAL HEAT EXCHANGER, by say drying the
air before it gets to the external heat exchanger by having
it form on other than the external heat exchanger and by
using a fan on that so that the small snow like is blown
off before it forms a solid sheet of thick ice that takes
a lot more heat to melt off.

Yes, air sourced heat pumps have downsides, but
they usually are better than just electrical resistance
heating inside the house even when the outside air
temp does get below freezing part of the time.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 02:48:05 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

02:48 in Australia? So, for HOW LONG have you been up and trolling this
night already, you subnormal clinically insane idiot? I'm gonna check...

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.


The flip side of that is down here around the 26th parallel and below
heat pumps don't make that much sense economically because we seldom
actually turn on the heat and when we do it is typically a small space
heater, not heating up the whole house. The 30-40 hours a year or less
that my wife has a 1440w heater going would not justify paying the
extra money for a heat pump and she only heats a small space, not the
whole house. The heat pump draws more than 1440w.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:30:48 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

That's just one way of doing that. The other
obvious alternative is to reverse the process
for a short while to mel the ice.

So now you are pumping that heat back outside, after you paid for it
to be pumped inside.
Sounds pretty inefficient to me. Heat pumps suck if it gets much below
40F you are dealing with the laws of thermodynamics here.

On 10/22/19 2:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I don't understand the fuss people make about temperature.* Especially
in a shared office where one wants it to be 18C and one wants it 23C.
Ever heard of changing your clothing to suit?!

Many people are following rules requiring them to dress inappropriately.

--
63 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Having a 'no smoking section' in a restaurant is like having a 'no
****ing section' in a swimming-pool." -- Victor Lewis-Smith

On 10/22/19 4:12 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I'm lazy, I set heating/AC to run all the time.* I pick a temperature
for the house and have it set at that 24/7.* People say that wastes
money, but not much.* Turning the heating or AC off while you're out
just means the temperature difference between inside and outside (as in
how much heat or cold you lose) is maybe 10C instead of 8C.* So I waste
25% at those times.* Who cares?

I find that if I leave the AC on on a cool night, it gets too cold.

[snip]

--
63 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Having a 'no smoking section' in a restaurant is like having a 'no
****ing section' in a swimming-pool." -- Victor Lewis-Smith

In article ,
says...

So now you are pumping that heat back outside, after you paid for it
to be pumped inside.
Sounds pretty inefficient to me. Heat pumps suck if it gets much below
40F you are dealing with the laws of thermodynamics here.




As long as the cost of electricity is not too high and you live in an
area of say a line from Virginia south and not in the mountains the heat
pump is a good way to go.

While for a short period of time you do pump heat out of the house to
the outside to de ice, it is not for very long. In a manner of speaking
the heat pumps are over 100% efficent. That is you are moving the heat
by electricity instead of just heating the air with resistance heaters
which many call baseboard heaters.

I moved from a house that had just AC and a natural gas furnace to one
with a heat pump. The new house is about 2 times as large but better
insulated. The whole electric bill per month in the winter is less
than just the gas bill was at the other house..It is just my wife and I
.. We do have a well so supply our own water too where in the other
house we did not.

No, the heat pumps only start to suck if it gets much below 25 deg F and
stays there for long periods of time. They really suck if it is below
20 deg F for long periods of time and are useless if in areas colder.

My electric rate is not very much, around 11 cents per KWH.

All I am talking about is the open air heat pumps. Not a lot of homes
will have the water/earth type mainly due to the expense of installing
them and maybe the room to do it.

In article ,
says...

So an air sourced heat pump doesn't work well when you need it most as
the temperature approaches zero Celsius during the winter? In the UK
where price of building land is at a premium new builds are often on a
postage sized plot where ground sourced heat pumps may not be to viable.
Around my way many new builds are multiple flats without gardens. Heat
pumps (presumably air sourced) are being touted as being the green
solution for central heating in the UK for new builds.


Only if it doesn't have some way of getting the ice off
Once frozen, and in a long cold spell of weather, unless the icing up
is removed the heat pump
may not be providing any usefull gain.
But they all do have some way of getting rid of the ice.
Does de-icing rely on the efficiency dropping and so the external box
is being heated by the supplied power?

That's just one way of doing that. The other obvious alternative is to
reverse the process for a short while to mel the ice.

But after melting the ice and reverting back to supplying heat when the
outside temperature is still at, or close to, zero will it not
immediately freeze up again if there is enough moisture in the air? If
you have to heat an external box it be much more efficient to provide
direct electric heating within the building.




The air heat pumps work fine down to about - 2 or -3 deg C or close to
25 deg F. It is below that the efficency starts to fall fast. Around -
6 or -7 deg C they start to become very inefficent and the resistance
coils in the air duct start to take over.

In areas around here when it gets to 32 deg F or 0 C there is very
little moisture in the air. So it takes a long time for the ice to
build up. When it does, most will reverse the cycle and go into what
would normally be an aircondition cooling mode. That puts heat on the
outside coils and melts the ice. Sometimes the electric heating coils
will come on so as not to blow cool air out the inside air vents.

During wet and rain the ice will build up , but we do not usually have
that much rain when it is near freezing.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:48:43 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bk6w7wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:44:45 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z908xwllwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase
50
Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning
to
cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during
the winter in climates such as the UK?

Is that necessary?

For the best SEER rating, yep.

If it's reversible, isn't it just that?

Nope. The problem with using them for heating
in a climate like yours is that the outside heat
collector does ice up and you need a much
bigger outside heat absorber to get the best
SEER rating for winter heating.

Argh, so I really need to find data for the heating and the cooling cycle.

You don't get that effect with summer aircons.

Obviously it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a
larger gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be
helped.

It can actually with two stage designs.

Two seperate circuits? Two condensers etc?

Yep, to help with the much bigger temperature
difference seen with winter heating.

Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty
doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising.

Don't they have a government body to check they're honest?

Nope.

And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is a
lie.

Not a lie so much as its hard to come up with a single digit number
that really does rank the devices properly, even with something as
simple as a fridge or freezer, let alone a heat pump.

Bull****. A camera makes a certain number of pixels.

That's not a rating, that's a spec.

Same thing. It's a number specifying how much of something the item will do.

A battery has a certain number of amp hours.

Again, that's not a rating, that's a spec.

For example, I bought a "Probat" (****ty make) car battery, and an Exide
(good make) car battery. They were both rated at 45 Ah.

Again, that's not a rating, that's a spec.

I charged them both fully. Then I connected each to a car headlamp bulb,
drawing about 4 amps. I measured the current over time and worked out the
real Ah. The Exide was almost spot on, about 43 Ah. The Probat was 32
Ah. I got a partial refund when I yelled at the seller.

Sure, but that's not a rating, that's a spec.

Cameras have the same problem. My Fuji camera claims 10MP. But it's
very easy to determine it's actually about 2.5MP.

That's a different problem, optical and physical MPs.

The MPs inside the camera are irrelevant. What matters is useful MPs output to the file.

Take a picture at full resolution in favourable lighting. Load it into
Photoshop and reduce the size to 2.5MP. Save it. Load it again, then
enlarge back to 10MP. Clearly this image now only has 2.5MP of data.
Compare this image to the original from the camera. They're identical!
So the camera was giving out no more data than a 2.5MP file. They lied.

Nope, you don't understand the difference
between optical and physical MPs.

Cameras with less megapixels than they say,

That's not a rating, that's a lie about the specs.

Rating, specs, same thing.

Nope.

It's a number defining the capabilities of the device.

Ratings arent, specs are.

batteries with less capacity than they say, etc.

Ditto. But that doesn't happen with the best of them like
the Panasonic Li ion batterys or the apple iphone batterys

Iphone! BUAHAHAAH!!! Everyone I know with an Iphone is constantly
moaning it went flat.

I don't and my mates Samsung Galaxy S10 goes flat
a lot quicker when we are talking to each other for
hours during the garage sale run and after that.

My £13 phone lasts for WEEKS between charges.

But doesn't do anything like what a smartphone does.

It's a telephone. It makes phonecalls and sends texts. If I wanted to use the internet on the move, I'd get a tablet, with oodles more room on the screen.

What Apple did wrong was the same mistake Clive Sinclair made - making
things smaller to the cost of everything else.

Not with ipads they didn't.

No room for enough battery.

Same with all smartphones.

No, Apple are well known for making them as thin as possible.

My phone uses two 18650 Li Ion batteries - same as a cycle lamp - total is
4.2V 6Ah.

And does **** all that a smartphone does.

Irrelevant, the battery is huge compared to yours. Do Apple even tell you the amp hours?

Easy to get replacements too. Oh and you don't need special tools to open
the battery cover.

And does **** all that a smartphone does.

And the phone doesn't deliberately disable itself if an unauthorised
person opens it.

iphones don't do that.

Iphone bricking is infamous.

Its more complicated with smartphone talk time which
varys quite a bit depending on whether you are in a
strong signal area or a weak one where the phone
need to transmit more power to be seen by the base.

Yes, a phone can't guarantee battery life, but the battery itself can
state a very precise Ah.

And that's a spec, not a rating.

They could also simply quote the measurement along with the conditions
required.

They do.

Eg. this car will get 50mpg if you drive on a motorway at a constant
70mph.

And that still doesn't tell you what result you
will actually get with particular air temps etc.

Whyever not? An AC unit could say "if outside is 30C and inside is 20C, then it will have x efficiency if running at full power".

Or this phone will allow you to talk for 3 hours if your signal strength
is 90%.

There is no signal strength you can do that with.

What? Are you saying your phone won't let you talk for 3 hours on one charge?

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:35:06 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:26:04 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:17:39 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 5:16:19 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.


Well, IDK what exactly you had. But you and Danny were comparing it to
a mini-split. A mini-split can and often is just two pieces one inside,
one outside. Some will support more than one inside unit. So, what you
say isn't a mini-split sounds like one to me, so far.

The word split suggests you get at least two indoor units.

Maybe to you, but not to the industry, the companies that build and
market them. The "split" refers to the fact that it's not a single
unit in a window type AC, the condenser and evaporator are in separate
units.

Well in that case it's a single mini split. One indoor unit, one outdoor unit, connected through a wall by piping. Although quite why the piping would change the efficiency I don't know, unless it was a very long run.

not central AC, because he claims that most single units are much
less that 13 SEER. You can't buy a central AC that's less than 13 SEER

In the USA perhaps. Other countries like the UK (where I live) don't have regulations on AC efficiency.

That's quite shocking, what with global warming and all the other things
being regulated and controlled in Europe as a result.

Global warming is bull****, and we don't use much AC. Eventually we'll use heat pumps for heating, then no doubt they'll introduce tree hugging bull****. But having left the EU, we might not.

and they go up to 20 and beyond. Window units are rated in EER,
and he may be confusing the two ratings.

No, this one lists SEER and EER.

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Not true with two stage AC or heat pumps.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

If it's not that hot outside, then the inside temperature,
once lowered, isn't going to bounce right back up again in
just four minutes. Typically it would run briefly a couple
times an hour.

I assume what Danny was saying is if running it on full blast, then the coils themselves will get very cold and hot, hence make it run less efficiently. Best to run a big engine slowly than a little engine fast - Top Gear (a UK motoring program) ran a test where a Toyota Prius drove as fast as possible round a race track, and a large BMW followed it. The BMW used less fuel!

Yes, I agree and have no issue with that. But I've never seen a system
where it runs on one minute, then off four. When it's not that hot outside
the AC runs long enough to drop the temperature down about a degree.
If it's mild outside, the inside temp isn't going back up a degree in
just four minutes. Now would anything close to a working, realistic
system cool off the place in just a minute, even on a mild day. Running
for 5 mins, then being off for 30 mins or an hour is what you see.

Agreed.

If you have a two stage unit, it will run more frequently at the lower
output on mild days. That helps move more air around, equalize temperature,
get more humidity out, etc. But the problem is that two stage costs
considerably more, I looked at it, decided it was not worth it.

I shall list several of them and decide on price, efficiency, etc.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:50:23 +0100, Bob F wrote:

On 10/22/2019 9:46 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

What is this "heating" thing? ;-)


It is exactly what heat pumps do.

And in a hot climate, they heat the outdoors :-)

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 04:19:36 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:17:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 5:16:19 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.


Well, IDK what exactly you had. But you and Danny were comparing it to
a mini-split. A mini-split can and often is just two pieces one inside,
one outside. Some will support more than one inside unit. So, what you
say isn't a mini-split sounds like one to me, so far.

It could be a wall pack like you see in motels, A Bard Wall hanger
like they use on construction trailers or a ducted package unit like
you see in a mobile home.
They can be pretty efficient, the government just doesn't say they
have to be.

So you can get around the law by buying a different type. ROFL!

In article , lid says...

I don't understand the fuss people make about temperature.* Especially
in a shared office where one wants it to be 18C and one wants it 23C.
Ever heard of changing your clothing to suit?!

Many people are following rules requiring them to dress inappropriately.


Never put 2 or more women in an office unless you put in a fake
thermostat.

Have a hidden one and set it. Then tell the women to use the one on the
wall and set it to where they want it. They will be turning it up and
down all day. They may even fight over it.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:59:44 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/22/19 2:14 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I don't understand the fuss people make about temperature. Especially
in a shared office where one wants it to be 18C and one wants it 23C.
Ever heard of changing your clothing to suit?!

Many people are following rules requiring them to dress inappropriately.

You mean wearing a shirt and tie in sweltering heat? I don't accept that. I wear what I want, or change job.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:04:42 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/22/19 4:12 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I'm lazy, I set heating/AC to run all the time. I pick a temperature
for the house and have it set at that 24/7. People say that wastes
money, but not much. Turning the heating or AC off while you're out
just means the temperature difference between inside and outside (as in
how much heat or cold you lose) is maybe 10C instead of 8C. So I waste
25% at those times. Who cares?

I find that if I leave the AC on on a cool night, it gets too cold.

Doesn't it have a thermostat?

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 12:59:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


Many people are following rules requiring them to dress inappropriately.

Not many people are so retarded and feed that clinically insane troll time
and again, you troll-feeding senile asshole!

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:04:42 -0500, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


I find that if I leave the AC on on a cool night, it gets too cold.

I found that if some senile idiot like you keeps feeding a retarded troll
like him, they soon start sounding as retarded as him!

On 23/10/2019 19:09, Ralph Mowery wrote:


During wet and rain the ice will build up , but we do not usually have
that much rain when it is near freezing.


To misquote Rod

"That soggy little frigid island of yours is nothing like what is seen
in the rest of the world"

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
says...
How much humidity does sub zero air contain????? Not very much is how
much. The colder it gets outside the LESS likely the system is to ice
up.

At +40c 1kg of air at 100% RH holds 49.8 grams of water.
At -40C that same Kg of air can only hold 0.1 grams of water.
At 0c it can hold 3.8grams - at 20c it can hold 15 grams, and at -20c
only 0.75 grams



All that is fine and dandy . However if it is raining and the
temperature is slightly below 0 deg C you will probably ice up very
fast. That hapens a lot in the area I live in. Middle of North
Carolina.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:58:48 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...
How much humidity does sub zero air contain????? Not very much is how
much. The colder it gets outside the LESS likely the system is to ice
up.

At +40c 1kg of air at 100% RH holds 49.8 grams of water.
At -40C that same Kg of air can only hold 0.1 grams of water.
At 0c it can hold 3.8grams - at 20c it can hold 15 grams, and at -20c
only 0.75 grams



All that is fine and dandy . However if it is raining and the
temperature is slightly below 0 deg C you will probably ice up very
fast. That hapens a lot in the area I live in. Middle of North
Carolina.
Actually it will ice up faster at 3 or 4 above than it will at zero.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:39:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.


The flip side of that is down here around the 26th parallel and below
heat pumps don't make that much sense economically because we seldom
actually turn on the heat and when we do it is typically a small space
heater, not heating up the whole house. The 30-40 hours a year or less
that my wife has a 1440w heater going would not justify paying the
extra money for a heat pump and she only heats a small space, not the
whole house. The heat pump draws more than 1440w.

But for the 1440W with the heat pump you'd get 4x, 5x the heat that
you get from an electric resistance heater. You could heat all or most
of the place, instead of one room.


The problem is the central air system draws twice that and why bother
heating rooms we are not in?
She turned on the electric fireplace for an hour or so in the morning
in the living room while she was drinking her coffee and reading the
paper, then she turned it off and went to work. I was still rolled up
in a blanket in bed and by the time I got up it was warm. I can
actually function OK from 60 to around 85-90 anyway so this is not
really for me.
These days she sleeps in too so I am not sure we will be using much
heat at all.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:47:41 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:32:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?

Sure, we have heat pump systems here. But not in the really snowy parts
though, because it gets too cold and the heat pump systems don't perform
well,

How cold? Aren't they as good as freezers, which get to -20C or less domestically, and commercial huge ones way lower.

other solutions, eg nat gas or oil are used. And I don't mean
super cold places either. In the NYC area, for example, I've never
encountered a heat pump system. There are a very small, insignificant
number, but AFAIK, only ones using geothermal, not air ones.
They are common in the southern parts of the country.

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 8:57:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:39:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.


The flip side of that is down here around the 26th parallel and below
heat pumps don't make that much sense economically because we seldom
actually turn on the heat and when we do it is typically a small space
heater, not heating up the whole house. The 30-40 hours a year or less
that my wife has a 1440w heater going would not justify paying the
extra money for a heat pump and she only heats a small space, not the
whole house. The heat pump draws more than 1440w.

But for the 1440W with the heat pump you'd get 4x, 5x the heat that
you get from an electric resistance heater. You could heat all or most
of the place, instead of one room.


The problem is the central air system draws twice that and why bother
heating rooms we are not in?

Because the heat pump has a COP of 4+? You can heat 4 rooms for
the same electric that it costs to heat your 1 room with a resistance
heater. You can block off
a few rooms, heat 4 rooms or more for the same cost. I would think
that would be an advantage for most people.

On Sunday, October 27, 2019 at 8:21:09 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:47:41 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:32:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?

Sure, we have heat pump systems here. But not in the really snowy parts
though, because it gets too cold and the heat pump systems don't perform
well,

How cold? Aren't they as good as freezers, which get to -20C or less domestically, and commercial huge ones way lower.


As others have pointed out, the systems actually installed here start
to have issues when the temperature falls below freezing. If you're in
an environment where that doesn't happen much, then they can still be
fine. If you're where it typically goes below freezing for much of
the winter and can stay there or at 10 to 20F for days, then they suck.
Two problems. One is the COP declines at lower temperatures, so just
when you need the heat the most, that's when the capacity of the system
to turn electric into heat drops. When you're using it the most,
it's efficiency isn't the best. Second is that they are sized for
a balance of AC and heat. Here in the NY area, the heat system is
typically about 2x the capacity of the AC. So, you'd have to put in
a whopper of a heat pump and then that wouldn't be close to optimum
for cooling. The above results in long recovery times, which is a
pain. You can't set it back at night, it would take too long to recover.
If you have it set back while on a trip or something, it takes a long
time to recover, so you have a cold house. The above lead to aux electric
heat kicking in, which blows out the electric bill.

Like I said, I've only heard about a couple in these parts and those
were geothermal. How all that relates to a freezer, I have no idea.
I've never had one set lower than 0F. And how efficient they are
versus a heat pump for a whole house, IDK. A freezer is very small,
it could be 2x difference in efficiency at 0F than 25F and the
resulting difference in electric would still be small. Say we know
a freezer costs $150 a year to run at 0F. Do we know that it wouldn't cost
$50 a year to run at 25F?







other solutions, eg nat gas or oil are used. And I don't mean
super cold places either. In the NYC area, for example, I've never
encountered a heat pump system. There are a very small, insignificant
number, but AFAIK, only ones using geothermal, not air ones.
They are common in the southern parts of the country.

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 8:57:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:39:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.


The flip side of that is down here around the 26th parallel and below
heat pumps don't make that much sense economically because we seldom
actually turn on the heat and when we do it is typically a small space
heater, not heating up the whole house. The 30-40 hours a year or less
that my wife has a 1440w heater going would not justify paying the
extra money for a heat pump and she only heats a small space, not the
whole house. The heat pump draws more than 1440w.

But for the 1440W with the heat pump you'd get 4x, 5x the heat that
you get from an electric resistance heater. You could heat all or most
of the place, instead of one room.


The problem is the central air system draws twice that and why bother
heating rooms we are not in?

Because the heat pump has a COP of 4+? You can heat 4 rooms for
the same electric that it costs to heat your 1 room with a resistance
heater. You can block off
a few rooms, heat 4 rooms or more for the same cost. I would think
that would be an advantage for most people.


The problem is the condenser draws more current than the space heater
so it is still going to be more money to heat rooms we are not using
and she won't get that blast of warm air she wants.
You want to heat a whole house and she just wants some warm air
blowing on her feet.

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 07:55:59 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:

Two problems.

Yep, the one is him, the sociopathic ******, troll and attention whore. And
the other one is you, the demented troll-feeding senile idiot! tsk

On Monday, October 28, 2019 at 12:42:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 8:57:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:57:15 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:39:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.


The flip side of that is down here around the 26th parallel and below
heat pumps don't make that much sense economically because we seldom
actually turn on the heat and when we do it is typically a small space
heater, not heating up the whole house. The 30-40 hours a year or less
that my wife has a 1440w heater going would not justify paying the
extra money for a heat pump and she only heats a small space, not the
whole house. The heat pump draws more than 1440w.

But for the 1440W with the heat pump you'd get 4x, 5x the heat that
you get from an electric resistance heater. You could heat all or most
of the place, instead of one room.


The problem is the central air system draws twice that and why bother
heating rooms we are not in?

Because the heat pump has a COP of 4+? You can heat 4 rooms for
the same electric that it costs to heat your 1 room with a resistance
heater. You can block off
a few rooms, heat 4 rooms or more for the same cost. I would think
that would be an advantage for most people.


The problem is the condenser draws more current than the space heater
so it is still going to be more money to heat rooms we are not using

Why would that be? With a COP of 4, you get 4 times the heat out of
the heat pump as you do with the electric space heater. That would mean
you could heat about 4 rooms for the same price as one.




and she won't get that blast of warm air she wants.

That's true. How about an electric radiant heater. They direct the
heat to whatever is right in front of them, without heating the whole
room.



You want to heat a whole house and she just wants some warm air
blowing on her feet.

No, I was just pointing out that with the heat pump you can heat four
rooms of the same size for the cost of one and that I think most people
would see benefit in that.