On 22/10/2019 00:02, Rod Speed wrote:


"Robert" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different figures.

Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to
point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked
why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now.
Glad I could complete your useful and relevant post.

On 21/10/2019 21:59, Robert wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.
A quick skim read also suggests that there is a difference in units used.
in the States the ratios are based on BTU of cooling divided by
electrical power in WATTS
And in Europe WATTS divided by WATTS

I may be wrong though!

On 22/10/2019 01:48, Rod Speed wrote:

Argh, so I really need to find data for the heating and the cooling
cycle.

Probably in the UK the heating cycle figures are more important as its
more likely to be fitted for winter heating rather than the few weeks
during the summer where you may benifit from AC to cool the air.

Try searching for Coefficient of Performance (COP) for heat pumps and
you may get some clues why different figures may be quoted and/or why
some of the claims made for the use of heat pumps in the rest of the
world may not directly apply to the UK. This doesn't stop companies in
the UK from making some of these rest of world claims.

Consider the average monthly temperatures in the UK and you may find
some of the higher quoted figures can never be achieved in our climate -
or possibly not achievable without a more specialised design which may
not have a payback period in a domestic environment. I do appreciate
that for some people saving the planet rather that saving on energy
bills is more important and cost is not a factor.

COP rises with a higher input temperature
COP falls with a higher differential temperature (higher output temperature)

In the UK the (air) source heat pump becomes less efficient as the
temperature falls during the winter AND if you attempt to have a higher
output temperature to run an existing "conventional" radiator system or
hot water the efficiency also falls. Hence why lower temperature under
floor heating and/or much larger radiators are recommended. In this real
world scenario you may be looking at (SEER/Heating) figures of 2 to 5
rather than the top line 14 minimum for the USA.

Even sites promoting heat pumps suggest that insulating the house is an
important part for the installation.





--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 22/10/2019 00:02, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.* Your single-phase 50
Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps


Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to
cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during
the winter in climates such as the UK?

Is that necessary?* If it's reversible, isn't it just that?* Obviously
it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a larger
gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be helped.

Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty
doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising.

Don't they have a government body to check they're honest?

And it ain't just the USA* - almost everything you buy with a rating is
a lie.* Cameras with less megapixels than they say, batteries with less
capacity than they say, etc.* Every time I buy something like that, I
test it thoroughly, then get a partial refund :-)

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

--
Max Demian

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:02:17 +0100, Max Dumb, another mentally deficient
inveterate troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Yes, YOU were still missing in the list of notorious troll-feeding senile
assholes in this thread!

On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 22/10/2019 12:11, alan_m wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes

I dont think so


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

What is this "heating" thing? ;-)

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 1:15:08 PM UTC-4, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.Â* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

Certainly not true here in the US. Manufacturers have a product line
that goes from 13 SEER to maybe 20, the higher efficiency units costing
substantially more.

On 22/10/2019 18:14, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.Â* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

No one with a monniker like "A noiseless patient Spider" van possibly
have an IQ over 50


--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:11:51 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:23 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is
purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature
range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

That is "US" Seer. The Wiki article implies it is different than UK
SEER.
I really don't know since I am in the camp that it is largely
bull**** anyway. You may get a relative difference in efficiency
between 2 units but the absolute number is a fantasy.

If UK SEER is different, then they should call it something else, eg India SEER is called ISEER.

Anyway, as long as I can compare like with like, I can get a rough idea of the relative efficiencies. Any rating that's double the same rating on another model means it's about twice as good.

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applies to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason why split units would be more efficient?

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:20:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/10/2019 12:11, alan_m wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes

I dont think so
Derfinitely not - what makes the uneducated think so is the FACT that
formatting eats up a portion of the drive capacity - so you do not get
a full 1,048,576 bytes of useable space out of a megabyte of hard
drive capacity. Not just hard drives - memory sticks as well.

In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

A variable output unit will drop its output to 6,000 BTU,
so stay "on" for 4.5 minutes out of five.

The air temperature drop (the "delta") will only be
a few degrees instead of the 25 F typical of a full
power operation.

NOTE: there are now a _few_ window units that are
finally available in a variable output model.

So far _only_ for cooling, none yet with heating.

I picked one up earlier this year. It is, indeed,
much quieter, no "ker-thunk" when coming on, and
a gentler air flow. More efficient, too.

They're available from LG (formerly Lucky Goldstar).
In the US the _only_ general purpose retailet that
handles them is Home Depot. Others might, soon.

There's a _minor_ feature/annoyance/get used to it... change.

With a standard, say, 10,000 BTU unit, if you left it
off then came back to a 90 degree F room, then turned
it on, you'd get a nice blast of cool air in your face
30 seconds later.

With the LG's, since they're inverter units which measure
how much cooling is needed, they start off with just
a bit of chilling... so you don't get that refreshing
and icy flow.




--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 10/22/2019 1:47 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/10/2019 18:14, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.Â* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

No one with a monniker likeÂ* "A noiseless patient Spider" van possibly have an IQ over 50


And the IQ requirement to type accurately?

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:32:25 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:

why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

The clinically insane sociopathic Scottish ****** and attention whore keeps
setting out bait after bait ...and the senile fools here keep swallowing
them ALL, one after another ...and later they will whine and cry again that
they had been trolled! LMAO

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 19:32:25 +0100, danny burstein wrote:

In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

The single unit I was looking at was a single, but using an invertor.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assumed the single one I was looking at wasn't allowing for ducts. It shows it as heating/cooling a single area.

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

A variable output unit will drop its output to 6,000 BTU,
so stay "on" for 4.5 minutes out of five.

The air temperature drop (the "delta") will only be
a few degrees instead of the 25 F typical of a full
power operation.

Ah! I never thought about the air temperature drop. So that's why they use less power.

So does that mean if you need 5000 BTU/hr and buy a 5000 BTU/hr unit, you use way more power than if you buy a 20000 BTU/hr one which never taxes itself? If so, how much difference does this make? Eg. if you run one at 50% power, how more efficient does it tend to become?

NOTE: there are now a _few_ window units that are
finally available in a variable output model.

So far _only_ for cooling, none yet with heating.

I picked one up earlier this year. It is, indeed,
much quieter, no "ker-thunk" when coming on, and
a gentler air flow. More efficient, too.

They're available from LG (formerly Lucky Goldstar).

I knew them as "Life's Good", but the latest thing I got from them says "Best Choice" which er.... is the wrong set of letters.

In the US the _only_ general purpose retailet that
handles them is Home Depot. Others might, soon.

There's a _minor_ feature/annoyance/get used to it... change.

With a standard, say, 10,000 BTU unit, if you left it
off then came back to a 90 degree F room, then turned
it on, you'd get a nice blast of cool air in your face
30 seconds later.

With the LG's, since they're inverter units which measure
how much cooling is needed, they start off with just
a bit of chilling... so you don't get that refreshing
and icy flow.

Strange, you would think they'd adjust their power by how much too hot the room is. If it's marginally over, they should run on low power, but if the room's way too hot, they should give it a good boost. Are you sure it's working right? What on earth would make it think a lot of cooling is needed then? Does it wait to see if it can cool the room in an hour, then only later ramp up the power? Pretty daft really, it's nothing like what you'd actually want.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:35:27 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 1:15:08 PM UTC-4, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.Â* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

Certainly not true here in the US. Manufacturers have a product line
that goes from 13 SEER to maybe 20, the higher efficiency units costing
substantially more.

I think he is talking about comparable models, just rated different
here than in UK.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 19:10:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:11:51 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:23 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is
purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average
temperature
range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

That is "US" Seer. The Wiki article implies it is different than UK
SEER.
I really don't know since I am in the camp that it is largely
bull**** anyway. You may get a relative difference in efficiency
between 2 units but the absolute number is a fantasy.

If UK SEER is different, then they should call it something else, eg India SEER is called ISEER.

Anyway, as long as I can compare like with like, I can get a rough idea of the relative efficiencies. Any rating that's double the same rating on another model means it's about twice as good.

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applies to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason why split units would be more efficient?

"Single units" are typically window shakers and they get sold dirt
cheap, You can find higher efficiencies in window shakers, wall packs
and package units but they cost more.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:09:06 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:44:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

It amuses me that SEER is mostly used in America, but it uses *British* Thermal Units in the calculation!!

Farther down in that article they link the US SEER calculation model
that is different but the US uses the same SEER across the country.
When people turn on the A/C, the temp is probably going to be the same
whether you are in Florida or Chicago. In fact those northerners may
actually be more sensitive to a warm day than we are.

Irrelevant. If you both keep your house at the same temperature, but one of you has a different outdoor temperature, then one of the AC units will be more efficient, as the thermal gradient is different.

I know the snow
birds seem to die down here when it is 80 and my wife might still be
wearing a sweater. OTOH at night she wants it 65-70 in the bedroom.

I don't understand the fuss people make about temperature. Especially in a shared office where one wants it to be 18C and one wants it 23C. Ever heard of changing your clothing to suit?!

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:11, alan_m wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes

I dont think so

You are correct with the PC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST5...nual_Apr81.pdf

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:14:15 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91ab0suwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:09:48 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903yuhawdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:51:12 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z900kobiwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating?
The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the
UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are
manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good
as
the
minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other
countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them?

The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the
higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you
lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C

But they get used for heating here too,

Those by definition have a much worse SEER
when heating because the outside freezes
up in the conditions you lot have in winter.

Yes, but I'd expect the best SEER rating to be quoted if they only quote
one.

and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas
boilers
by some stupid EU treehugger law.

The UK will be out of the EU by then.

But we might end up keeping the stupid law.

Yeah, could well do given you lot have
your own stupidity with electric cars.

What stupidity would that be?

Mandating a move to them on some date in the
future that I am too lazy to check because there
is no chance that that will even happen then.

I'd not heard of that. Are they banning the sale of petrol cars by a certain year? There are a handful of electric cars around here but not many. Probably less than 1%. There are electric charging points in a few of the public car parks, but not many. I see the odd charging point in people's driveways, but they're few and far between.

Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis
gorgers may well be back in the EU by then.

I ****ing hope not, that stupid SNP woman was told no once.

But clearly doesn't care and is demanding another.

And presumably another until she gets what she wants.

Shouldn't be allowed. The vote should have been binding for x years.

Politics doesn't work like that even with general elections.

No reason it couldn't.

I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed.

Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse.

But can still work out cheaper than gas.

Sure, that was just a comment on your original
about why you see what you see with SEERs,
not saying that it isnt worth doing that way.

The SEER for cooling is always higher.

Yep because you never see the icing problem
with cooling and the temperature difference is
lower even here were 45C isnt at all uncommon.

So common then. Bloody double negatives. I had to cancel those out to see what you meant.

Hang on. 45C to 20C is bigger than say 5C (your colder winters?) to 20C.

This is the one the USA is presumably making laws about, as they use them
for AC a lot.

Yeah, its really the only viable way to do cooling
unless it's a very low humidity area where you can
use what the call swamp coolers which just have a
****ing great fan and woodwool pads with water
running over them. That's what I use myself, but
its very common to have single digit humiditys
here when you need cooling.

Aren't those liable to cause disease? and where do you get the cool water from? Aren't you constantly drawing water form the mains, which is short in Australia?

MUCH cheaper to run than an AC.

It's also (since it's higher) the one that the company would quote,
surely?

Normally, but that may just be a quirk of SEERs
and not seen with EERs which should quote both.

I think from the specs here (click "specifications"): https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/
They're quoting SEER and EER for cooling, and SCOP and COP for heating.

I'm not saying this one's any good, it's just the first one I spotted. I'm not buying one for a few months until I've built the room it's going into, so I haven't done much research.

If my place wasn't passive solar by design
I likely would have a heat pump myself.

Your house is entirely heated by the greenhouse effect through windows?

Not just the greenhouse effect, the sun comes
right inside the house in winter and heats the
massive great concrete slab directly as well.

That is the greenhouse effect. Heat gets through the glass inwards, but fails to leave again.

And in winter I bask in the direct sun I sit in too.

I thought all you Aussies worried about the ozone depletion bull****.

Don't you ever get a few days in a row with no sun?

Not very often at all.

*******.

And I have what the manufacturers
call a heated throw which is like an electric blanket that you
have on top of you in the armchair or couch for those days.

Isn't that inconvenient? Unless you spend hours sat doing nothing.

Not because of any ban on gas, we arent
stupid enough to do that, but because the
gas price has hiked very dramatically here.

Yip, price should always be the deciding factor, it sorts things
automatically.

But can be a big problem over time. Lots converted
their cars to dual fuel here, gas and petrol, but there
is no point in doing that anymore now that the price
of the gas has hiked so dramatically over time here.

I converted one of mine, and bought another already converted. Both blew the engine. I will never use gas again, unless it was designed to use it by the manufacturer. My current car actually has a GPL light on the dash (which I eventually found out is the backwards way first way of the French writing LPG). So I assume you can buy them with that option fitted.

As stuff becomes scarce, cheaper alternatives are found.

Not always, sometimes its just stops being viable anymore.

Whatever, we adapt and do something else.

I don't have gas connected to the house but
it is available down the street if I want it.

Thought you loved cooking?

Nope, I'd much prefer to never have to do it again.
I only do it to get a better result than I can buy.

Many cooks seem to prefer gas.

Yes, but not for the sort of food I prefer to eat.

Almost all the food I eat is done in a digital air
fryer now except steaks and pizzas. I don't stir
fry much at all and do all the veg in the microwave
except the stuff eaten uncooked like lettuce.

Are you taking about heating or cooling ?

I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking
at what mode the SEER applies to.

That must be spelled out on there somewhere.

It isn't.

Bet it is.

Go here and click specifications:
https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/

It will be somewhere else with an operation like Panasonic.

Find it then.

Too lazy because I don't plan to buy one.

You could do it to prove a point.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,
not central AC, because he claims that most single units are much
less that 13 SEER. You can't buy a central AC that's less than 13 SEER
and they go up to 20 and beyond. Window units are rated in EER,
and he may be confusing the two ratings.







[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Not true with two stage AC or heat pumps.




Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

If it's not that hot outside, then the inside temperature,
once lowered, isn't going to bounce right back up again in
just four minutes. Typically it would run briefly a couple
times an hour.

In op.z92sfnanwdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

[snippp... regarding the brand
There's a _minor_ feature/annoyance/get used to it... change.

With a standard, say, 10,000 BTU unit, if you left it
off then came back to a 90 degree F room, then turned
it on, you'd get a nice blast of cool air in your face
30 seconds later.

With the LG's, since they're inverter units which measure
how much cooling is needed, they start off with just
a bit of chilling... so you don't get that refreshing
and icy flow.

Strange, you would think they'd adjust their power by how much
too hot the room is. If it's marginally over, they should run
on low power, but if the room's way too hot, they should give
it a good boost. Are you sure it's working right?

What on earth would make it think a lot of cooling is needed
then? Does it wait to see if it can cool the room in an hour,
then only later ramp up the power? Pretty daft really, it's
nothing like what you'd actually want.

Not quite that bad. It'll start off with just a slight bit
of cooling, and then ramp up and up over the next couple
of minutes.

Haven't measured it exactly...

So yeah, when you come in and first stick your head in
the (just turned on...) air flow, you'll only get a hint
of refreshment. But 30 seconds, then a minute.. then two.. later
it'll be quite a bit more.

- It's got to see if the lower output will be enough. If the room's
pretty small, and the walls aren't hot [a], then yeah, 5,000 BTU
out of the rated 15,000 will be cooling it down quickly. If
the room's bigger, then etc., etc.

[a] one annoying feature in general (and that's The Killer in
long term heatwaves like Chicago [b] a decade ago...) is that the
building infrastructure (walls, etc.) heats up a _lot_ during
the daytime and keeps beking the interior at night.

Same thing, kind of, when coming into an apartment that's been at
95F for a couple of days. The unit can cool the air going through it,
but that air quickly gets reheated as it flows along the walls.

[b] make that two and a half decades... have you gotten to that
point in life where you think something happened last week and
it was six months ago, and a memory from last year is really
a decade?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Chicago_heat_wave

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 06:25:29 +1100, Jane Black, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


You are correct with the PC

HE may be correct, but YOU are a trolling piece of ****, senile Rodent.

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 19:53:32 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein, another mentally
deficient, notorious, troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered again:


Not quite that bad.

YOU, sir, got a BAD case of sucking troll cock!

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 15:14:23 -0400, , the disgusting,
troll-feeding senile Yankietard, blathered again:

"Single units" are typically window shakers and they get sold dirt
cheap, You can find higher efficiencies in window shakers, wall packs
and package units but they cost more.

So, for how long are you senile idiots still going to go on like that? Until
the troll is fed up with you again? Just HOW senile are you? tsk

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z92tnpjhwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:14:15 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91ab0suwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:09:48 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903yuhawdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:51:12 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z900kobiwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating?
The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the
UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?)
are
manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good
as
the
minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to
other
countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them?

The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the
higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you
lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C

But they get used for heating here too,

Those by definition have a much worse SEER
when heating because the outside freezes
up in the conditions you lot have in winter.

Yes, but I'd expect the best SEER rating to be quoted if they only
quote
one.

and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas
boilers
by some stupid EU treehugger law.

The UK will be out of the EU by then.

But we might end up keeping the stupid law.

Yeah, could well do given you lot have
your own stupidity with electric cars.

What stupidity would that be?

Mandating a move to them on some date in the
future that I am too lazy to check because there
is no chance that that will even happen then.

I'd not heard of that. Are they banning the sale of petrol cars by a
certain year?

Yep, they actually are that stupid. Corse it aint gunna
happen because the voters will never buy that.

There are a handful of electric cars around here but not many. Probably
less than 1%.

Apparently more than half of new cars sold are
electric in Norway. The ****ers must be ****ing mad.

There are electric charging points in a few of the public car parks, but
not many.

I havent noticed any here, but havent looked for them either.
Fark, there are 20 in my town, mostly not in public carparks tho.

I see the odd charging point in people's driveways, but they're few and
far between.

Never seen one on the garage sale run here.

Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis
gorgers may well be back in the EU by then.

I ****ing hope not, that stupid SNP woman was told no once.

But clearly doesn't care and is demanding another.

And presumably another until she gets what she wants.

Shouldn't be allowed. The vote should have been binding for x years.

Politics doesn't work like that even with general elections.

No reason it couldn't.

Corse there is.

I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed.

Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse.

But can still work out cheaper than gas.

Sure, that was just a comment on your original
about why you see what you see with SEERs,
not saying that it isnt worth doing that way.

The SEER for cooling is always higher.

Yep because you never see the icing problem
with cooling and the temperature difference is
lower even here were 45C isnt at all uncommon.

So common then.

Nope, not at all uncommon isnt the same as
common. We generally get a few days over
45C, but that's nothing like it being common.

Bloody double negatives.

There is no double negative there.

I had to cancel those out to see what you meant.

Because you are brain dead.

Hang on. 45C to 20C

No one runs the house at 20C in summer.

is bigger than say 5C (your colder winters?) to 20C.

Some days don't get above 0C all day
and most winter nights get below 0C

And you lot never see 45C in summer.

Just finished reading the memoirs of a sergeant
in Napoleon's Grande Armie in the retreat from
Moscow in 1812. -20C wasn't all all uncommon
in the daytime. Unsurprisingly most froze to death.

In another memoir of a polish fella in the red army
in WW2, one red army captain got so ****ed off at
what the krauts had done that he made the prisoners
drop their pants and sit in the snow and told the
troops that those who were not dead in 30 mins
should be shot, bullet in the head,

This is the one the USA is presumably making laws about, as they use
them for AC a lot.

Yeah, its really the only viable way to do cooling
unless it's a very low humidity area where you can
use what the call swamp coolers which just have a
****ing great fan and woodwool pads with water
running over them. That's what I use myself, but
its very common to have single digit humiditys
here when you need cooling.

Aren't those liable to cause disease?

Nope, that's legionella in conventional AC cooling towers.

and where do you get the cool water from?

They have a water supply,

Aren't you constantly drawing water form the mains,

Yes, but it isnt a lot of water. Far more is
used in showers and watering the lawn.

which is short in Australia?

Only in droughts.

MUCH cheaper to run than an AC.

It's also (since it's higher) the one that the company would quote,
surely?

Normally, but that may just be a quirk of SEERs
and not seen with EERs which should quote both.

I think from the specs here (click "specifications"):
https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/
They're quoting SEER and EER for cooling, and SCOP and COP for heating.

Yeah, looks like it.

I'm not saying this one's any good, it's just the first one I spotted.
I'm not buying one for a few months until I've built the room it's going
into, so I haven't done much research.

If my place wasn't passive solar by design
I likely would have a heat pump myself.

Your house is entirely heated by the greenhouse effect through windows?

Not just the greenhouse effect, the sun comes
right inside the house in winter and heats the
massive great concrete slab directly as well.

That is the greenhouse effect.

Nope, greenhouses done necessarily have concrete floors.

Heat gets through the glass inwards, but fails to leave again.

But don't normally have concrete floors.

And in winter I bask in the direct sun I sit in too.

I thought all you Aussies worried about the ozone depletion bull****.

No UV gets in thru the glass patio doors.

And no we don't, and the ozone effect is in summer not winter.

Don't you ever get a few days in a row with no sun?

Not very often at all.

*******.

And I have what the manufacturers
call a heated throw which is like an electric blanket that you
have on top of you in the armchair or couch for those days.

Isn't that inconvenient?

Nope.

Unless you spend hours sat doing nothing.

Spend hours on the computer etc, nothing
like doing nothing. I prefer to read ebooks
now, so much easier to look up stuff that
you find in the book etc.

Not because of any ban on gas, we arent
stupid enough to do that, but because the
gas price has hiked very dramatically here.

Yip, price should always be the deciding factor, it sorts things
automatically.

But can be a big problem over time. Lots converted
their cars to dual fuel here, gas and petrol, but there
is no point in doing that anymore now that the price
of the gas has hiked so dramatically over time here.

I converted one of mine, and bought another already converted.

Two of the garage salers have them, one is dead now.

Both blew the engine.

None of ours have blown the engine. All the taxis are dual
fuel but I havent used one for years now so I'm not sure
what they mostly refuel with now. Apparently there are
only two gas refillers now. Cant say I have ever seen a
taxi refueiling so cant say what fuel they use now.

I will never use gas again, unless it was designed to use it by the
manufacturer.

The taxis mostly are. The two garage salers werent.

My current car actually has a GPL light on the dash (which I eventually
found out is the backwards way first way of the French writing LPG). So I
assume you can buy them with that option fitted.

You certainly can with our taxis. Or used to be able to anyway.

As stuff becomes scarce, cheaper alternatives are found.

Not always, sometimes its just stops being viable anymore.

Whatever, we adapt and do something else.

I don't have gas connected to the house but
it is available down the street if I want it.

Thought you loved cooking?

Nope, I'd much prefer to never have to do it again.
I only do it to get a better result than I can buy.

Many cooks seem to prefer gas.

Yes, but not for the sort of food I prefer to eat.

Almost all the food I eat is done in a digital air
fryer now except steaks and pizzas. I don't stir
fry much at all and do all the veg in the microwave
except the stuff eaten uncooked like lettuce.

Are you taking about heating or cooling ?

I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking
at what mode the SEER applies to.

That must be spelled out on there somewhere.

It isn't.

Bet it is.

Go here and click specifications:
https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/

It will be somewhere else with an operation like Panasonic.

Find it then.

Too lazy because I don't plan to buy one.

You could do it to prove a point.

Got better things to do with my time.

....and much better air in here again!

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:53:32 +0100, danny burstein wrote:

In op.z92sfnanwdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

[snippp... regarding the brand
There's a _minor_ feature/annoyance/get used to it... change.

With a standard, say, 10,000 BTU unit, if you left it
off then came back to a 90 degree F room, then turned
it on, you'd get a nice blast of cool air in your face
30 seconds later.

With the LG's, since they're inverter units which measure
how much cooling is needed, they start off with just
a bit of chilling... so you don't get that refreshing
and icy flow.

Strange, you would think they'd adjust their power by how much
too hot the room is. If it's marginally over, they should run
on low power, but if the room's way too hot, they should give
it a good boost. Are you sure it's working right?

What on earth would make it think a lot of cooling is needed
then? Does it wait to see if it can cool the room in an hour,
then only later ramp up the power? Pretty daft really, it's
nothing like what you'd actually want.

Not quite that bad. It'll start off with just a slight bit
of cooling, and then ramp up and up over the next couple
of minutes.

Haven't measured it exactly...

Why would it do that? Room temp = 90, desired temp = 70, therefore run at full speed surely?

So yeah, when you come in and first stick your head in
the (just turned on...) air flow, you'll only get a hint
of refreshment. But 30 seconds, then a minute.. then two.. later
it'll be quite a bit more.

I'm lazy, I set heating/AC to run all the time. I pick a temperature for the house and have it set at that 24/7. People say that wastes money, but not much. Turning the heating or AC off while you're out just means the temperature difference between inside and outside (as in how much heat or cold you lose) is maybe 10C instead of 8C. So I waste 25% at those times. Who cares?

- It's got to see if the lower output will be enough. If the room's
pretty small, and the walls aren't hot [a], then yeah, 5,000 BTU
out of the rated 15,000 will be cooling it down quickly. If
the room's bigger, then etc., etc.

I wouldn't design it like that. I'd make it run slowly if the temperature difference was small, and fast if the temperature difference was large. Clearly if it's small it's just topping up, but if it's large it's because you've just got in and you want a lot at once.

[a] one annoying feature in general (and that's The Killer in
long term heatwaves like Chicago [b] a decade ago...) is that the
building infrastructure (walls, etc.) heats up a _lot_ during
the daytime and keeps beking the interior at night.

Same thing, kind of, when coming into an apartment that's been at
95F for a couple of days. The unit can cool the air going through it,
but that air quickly gets reheated as it flows along the walls.

Wouldn't happen if you just left the unit on all the time.

[b] make that two and a half decades... have you gotten to that
point in life where you think something happened last week and
it was six months ago, and a memory from last year is really
a decade?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Chicago_heat_wave

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.

not central AC, because he claims that most single units are much
less that 13 SEER. You can't buy a central AC that's less than 13 SEER

In the USA perhaps. Other countries like the UK (where I live) don't have regulations on AC efficiency.

and they go up to 20 and beyond. Window units are rated in EER,
and he may be confusing the two ratings.

No, this one lists SEER and EER.

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Not true with two stage AC or heat pumps.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

If it's not that hot outside, then the inside temperature,
once lowered, isn't going to bounce right back up again in
just four minutes. Typically it would run briefly a couple
times an hour.

I assume what Danny was saying is if running it on full blast, then the coils themselves will get very cold and hot, hence make it run less efficiently. Best to run a big engine slowly than a little engine fast - Top Gear (a UK motoring program) ran a test where a Toyota Prius drove as fast as possible round a race track, and a large BMW followed it. The BMW used less fuel!

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:23:42 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91agyq1wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:12:33 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903zpzpwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same,

Nope, the S is for SEASONAL and that varys a lot
between those areas. That soggy little frigid island
of yours is nothing like what is seen in Texas etc.

Its not unusual to get 10 days in a row over 40C here.

all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

Those arent SEASONAL, stupid.

It does not make sense to have SEER be different depending where you live.

Yes it does, because that's what you actually care about,
how well the various heat pumps will perform with your
seasonal conditions. If for example your winter overnight
minimums don't see the outside heat collector freeze up
because its big enough for your minimums, that's what
matters for you.

How then can a product have a rating?

By measuring how well it handles low temps etc with a winter heat pump.

They don't know whether you're going to install it in Texas or wherever.

But that's why the USA has different SEERs to europe for the same device.

They'd have to say "SEER (Texas) 17, SEER (Washington) 15" etc.

It doesn't vary that much with summer cooling but it does with winter
heating.

And with summer cooling with swamp coolers too.

It's a rather crude rating but better than nothing.

It's pointless to have a rating of "SEER 12" if it doesn't specify where that is. Either SEER has to be the same the world over, or it needs to specify what country on the rating. I could otherwise be comparing two units, one with a SEER measured in America and one in the UK. There is ISEER for India, there should be similar letters to prefix it for each country, or the rating is meaningless (incomparable).

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:22:06 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:00:55 +0100, "Commander
Kinsey" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question, and you are the OP, but you ignored
it.

What am I supposed to do with the question? I don't know how SEER and EER are calculated for different countries, whether the country they're measured in is specified etc.

This is the more important question.

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

One is proportional to the other. SEER assumes a set temperature.


BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

What is cps?

In article op.z92yo9yfwdg98l@glass, says...

I assume what Danny was saying is if running it on full blast, then the coils themselves will get very cold and hot, hence make it run less efficiently. Best to run a big engine slowly than a little engine fast - Top Gear (a UK motoring program) ran a test where a Toyota Prius drove as fast as possible round a race track, and a
large BMW followed it. The BMW used less fuel!



Most home units are very simple. The cooling and heating 'coils' are
either off or on. Just like most electric stoves. The only way to vary
the ammount of heat/cool is to cycle them off and on.

There may be some newer units out that do vary the ammount of heat/cool
in the coils, but that cost more and most do not want to buy them.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z920w4gywdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:23:42 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91agyq1wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:12:33 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903zpzpwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US
,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same,

Nope, the S is for SEASONAL and that varys a lot
between those areas. That soggy little frigid island
of yours is nothing like what is seen in Texas etc.

Its not unusual to get 10 days in a row over 40C here.

all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

Those arent SEASONAL, stupid.

It does not make sense to have SEER be different depending where you
live.

Yes it does, because that's what you actually care about,
how well the various heat pumps will perform with your
seasonal conditions. If for example your winter overnight
minimums don't see the outside heat collector freeze up
because its big enough for your minimums, that's what
matters for you.

How then can a product have a rating?

By measuring how well it handles low temps etc with a winter heat pump.

They don't know whether you're going to install it in Texas or wherever.

But that's why the USA has different SEERs to europe for the same device.

They'd have to say "SEER (Texas) 17, SEER (Washington) 15" etc.

It doesn't vary that much with summer cooling but it does with winter
heating.

And with summer cooling with swamp coolers too.

It's a rather crude rating but better than nothing.

It's pointless to have a rating of "SEER 12" if it doesn't specify where
that is.

While that is strictly true, its also seen with the ratings for fridges and
freezers.

Either SEER has to be the same the world over,

Not possible given that climate does vary so dramatically.

or it needs to specify what country on the rating.

Doesn't work so well with the tiny little countrys like in europe.

Or the massive ones like the USA and Oz.

I could otherwise be comparing two units, one with a SEER measured in
America and one in the UK.

Yes but you wouldn't normally do that with a
heat pump because of the mains differences etc.

There is ISEER for India, there should be similar letters to prefix it for
each country, or the rating is meaningless (incomparable).

Yep, there is no real solution to that problem.

On 10/22/2019 6:05 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:22:06 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:00:55 +0100, "Commander
Kinsey" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question, and you are the OP, but you ignored
it.

What am I supposed to do with the question?* I don't know how SEER and EER are calculated for different countries, whether the country they're measured in is specified etc.


Buy the highest SEER model available to you that you can afford?

Or buy the mid-range model?

Or buy the cheapest one if you're a skinflint.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:19:35 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 101 !!! lines of the two clinically insane idiots' stinking
troll****


--
Another typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots,
Birdbrain and Rodent Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rodent: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rodent: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rodent Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rodent Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

Message-ID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:15:03 -0400, Ralph Mowery, another brain dead,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


Most home units are very simple.

The troll's "mind" is very simple! He's a sociopath! You are simply plain
stupid for not realizing it, troll-feeding senile asshole!

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 18:28:34 -0400, Bod F, another mentally deficient,
troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered:

Buy the highest SEER model available to you that you can afford?

Or buy the mid-range model?

Or buy the cheapest one if you're a skinflint.

Just what is WRONG with you troll-feeding senile idiots? You got no one else
to talk to in your senile lives other than the dumbest troll around?

On 22/10/2019 19:36, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/22/2019 1:47 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/10/2019 18:14, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, A noiseless patient Spider
wrote:

On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.Â* Your single-phase
50 Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps


60Hz vs 50Hz?

For several manufacturers they all come off the the same production
line, using the same refrigerant, most now use a multiphase inverter
driven compressor.

The result is there is essentially bugger all difference in thermal
performance and certainly none related to the mains input voltage and
frequency.

No one with a monniker likeÂ* "A noiseless patient Spider" van possibly
have an IQ over 50


And the IQ requirement to type accurately?

Not correlated.


--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.