On 22/10/2019 20:25, Jane Black wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:11, alan_m wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes

I dont think so

You are correct with the PC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412

....has no relevance to this duscussion...
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST5...nual_Apr81.pdf

...implies the opposite...
--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:51:55 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bl0zuwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:29 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z9096aqdwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:02:23 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

"Robert" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law
stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to
point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked
why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now.

Must be your age.

Nope, time of day. That was the middle of the night for me.

Your sleep patterns are as bad as mine.

Worse actually, much more variable. But in my case its because
I don't even lie in bed trying to sleep, I get up, do what I usually
do and then go back to bed later and go to sleep immediately.

Bit tricky for the people I know tho, very hard to predict
when I will be up.

I'm worse. I can be too sleepy to continue what I'm doing, but when I go to bed I lie there for up to 2 hours before I can sleep. Alcohol and marijuana helps, but it's still not enough. And sleeping tablets make me pass out instead of sleeping, which makes me feel like ****.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:53:23 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bnt1mwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question.

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

One is proportional to the other. SEER assumes a set temperature.

BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

What is cps?

cycles per second, mains frequency, Hz, They have 60 you and I have 50

Ahhh, I forgot they say cycles for some reason. English but not English.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:57:19 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bouj3wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:47:45 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

Presumably because we don't use AC much.

Yeah, likely.

Once they take over for heating, we'll no doubt get something.

In the EU anyway. Less clear with the UK. The UK
isnt so keen on mandated minimum efficiencys.
Most obviously with the stupid EU mandate with
vacuum cleaners.

Not sure when that came into effect, but I know someone with a 2kW vacuum cleaner that she bought only about 5 years ago. Why on earth would you limit something that uses about 0.0000001% of the world's electricity? It's as daft as hosepipe bans. It's not often we run low on water in the UK, but when we do, they ban hosepipes, despite domestic water use being only 5%, the rest is commercial. I just use one anyway then say I didn't know about the ban (which I usually don't until someone tells me as I don't read newspapers). Or just fill a watering can with a hosepipe the use that. I ****ed off a neighbour once by walking around the garden using a watering can with the hose in it refilling it. She said "you're flouting the law!"

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:53:00 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:59:20 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

My Fuji camera claims 10MP. But it's very easy to determine it's actually about 2.5MP. Take a picture at full resolution in favourable lighting. Load it into Photoshop and reduce the size to 2.5MP. Save it. Load it again, then enlarge back to 10MP. Clearly this image now only has 2.5MP of data. Compare this image to the original from the camera. They're identical! So the camera was giving out no more data than a 2.5MP file. They lied.

Not necessarily. They are just telling you what CCD is in there. You
can verify that easily by looking at the image properties.
I bet it is around 10MP.
What they don't say is whether the optics can actually resolve a
picture with that detail. You may find many adjacent pixels have
exactly the same data so when you compress and expand it, the result
is so close you can't see the difference.

It's still a lie, they stated the CAMERA was 10MP, not one part of it. That's like Ford selling you a car that can "go 200mph" - when in actual fact only the wheels can do that, the engine can't.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:27:03 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question.


Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

True and there is also the voltage rating too. What you lot call 240V two
phase is quite different to the UK 240V single phase.

No it isn't, apart from the frequency. All they have is the ability to centre tap it to get 120V. I doubt AC does that.

They also have 415V 3 phase for the bigger ACs too.

Not for most houses. To get 3 phase I'd have to pay the electricity company to install two extra cables from the pavement to my house. My two next door neighbours will probably have the other two phases, so it won't be a long cable.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 5:16:19 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.


Well, IDK what exactly you had. But you and Danny were comparing it to
a mini-split. A mini-split can and often is just two pieces one inside,
one outside. Some will support more than one inside unit. So, what you
say isn't a mini-split sounds like one to me, so far.





not central AC, because he claims that most single units are much
less that 13 SEER. You can't buy a central AC that's less than 13 SEER

In the USA perhaps. Other countries like the UK (where I live) don't have regulations on AC efficiency.

That's quite shocking, what with global warming and all the other things
being regulated and controlled in Europe as a result.




and they go up to 20 and beyond. Window units are rated in EER,
and he may be confusing the two ratings.

No, this one lists SEER and EER.

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Not true with two stage AC or heat pumps.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

If it's not that hot outside, then the inside temperature,
once lowered, isn't going to bounce right back up again in
just four minutes. Typically it would run briefly a couple
times an hour.

I assume what Danny was saying is if running it on full blast, then the coils themselves will get very cold and hot, hence make it run less efficiently. Best to run a big engine slowly than a little engine fast - Top Gear (a UK motoring program) ran a test where a Toyota Prius drove as fast as possible round a race track, and a large BMW followed it. The BMW used less fuel!

Yes, I agree and have no issue with that. But I've never seen a system
where it runs on one minute, then off four. When it's not that hot outside
the AC runs long enough to drop the temperature down about a degree.
If it's mild outside, the inside temp isn't going back up a degree in
just four minutes. Now would anything close to a working, realistic
system cool off the place in just a minute, even on a mild day. Running
for 5 mins, then being off for 30 mins or an hour is what you see.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 6:04:13 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:23:42 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91agyq1wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:12:33 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903zpzpwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same,

Nope, the S is for SEASONAL and that varys a lot
between those areas. That soggy little frigid island
of yours is nothing like what is seen in Texas etc.

Its not unusual to get 10 days in a row over 40C here.

all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

Those arent SEASONAL, stupid.

It does not make sense to have SEER be different depending where you live.

Yes it does, because that's what you actually care about,
how well the various heat pumps will perform with your
seasonal conditions. If for example your winter overnight
minimums don't see the outside heat collector freeze up
because its big enough for your minimums, that's what
matters for you.

How then can a product have a rating?

By measuring how well it handles low temps etc with a winter heat pump.

They don't know whether you're going to install it in Texas or wherever.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:17:39 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 5:16:19 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.


Well, IDK what exactly you had. But you and Danny were comparing it to
a mini-split. A mini-split can and often is just two pieces one inside,
one outside. Some will support more than one inside unit. So, what you
say isn't a mini-split sounds like one to me, so far.

The word split suggests you get at least two indoor units.

not central AC, because he claims that most single units are much
less that 13 SEER. You can't buy a central AC that's less than 13 SEER

In the USA perhaps. Other countries like the UK (where I live) don't have regulations on AC efficiency.

That's quite shocking, what with global warming and all the other things
being regulated and controlled in Europe as a result.

Global warming is bull****, and we don't use much AC. Eventually we'll use heat pumps for heating, then no doubt they'll introduce tree hugging bull****. But having left the EU, we might not.

and they go up to 20 and beyond. Window units are rated in EER,
and he may be confusing the two ratings.

No, this one lists SEER and EER.

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Not true with two stage AC or heat pumps.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

If it's not that hot outside, then the inside temperature,
once lowered, isn't going to bounce right back up again in
just four minutes. Typically it would run briefly a couple
times an hour.

I assume what Danny was saying is if running it on full blast, then the coils themselves will get very cold and hot, hence make it run less efficiently. Best to run a big engine slowly than a little engine fast - Top Gear (a UK motoring program) ran a test where a Toyota Prius drove as fast as possible round a race track, and a large BMW followed it. The BMW used less fuel!

Yes, I agree and have no issue with that. But I've never seen a system
where it runs on one minute, then off four. When it's not that hot outside
the AC runs long enough to drop the temperature down about a degree.
If it's mild outside, the inside temp isn't going back up a degree in
just four minutes. Now would anything close to a working, realistic
system cool off the place in just a minute, even on a mild day. Running
for 5 mins, then being off for 30 mins or an hour is what you see.

Agreed.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:02:17 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 22/10/2019 00:02, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50
Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps


Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to
cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during
the winter in climates such as the UK?

Is that necessary? If it's reversible, isn't it just that? Obviously
it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a larger
gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be helped.

Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty
doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising.

Don't they have a government body to check they're honest?

And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is
a lie. Cameras with less megapixels than they say, batteries with less
capacity than they say, etc. Every time I buy something like that, I
test it thoroughly, then get a partial refund :-)

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Indeed. Yet another con. Pretty annoying when your 2TB drive is 1.8.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bod F wrote:
On 10/22/2019 6:05 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:22:06 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:00:55 +0100, "Commander
Kinsey" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question, and you are the OP, but you ignored
it.

What am I supposed to do with the question?Â* I don't know how SEER and EER are calculated for different countries, whether the country they're measured in is specified etc.


Buy the highest SEER model available to you that you can afford?

Best to take a look at the cost of electric and how much you use the
unit, what it costs to run. Makes no sense to me to buy a 20 SEER
unit that cost $3000 more, if it takes 30 years to get the money back.
The unit will probably be kaput in half that time.
I suppose it makes sense to some worried about their carbon footprint.





Or buy the mid-range model?

Or buy the cheapest one if you're a skinflint.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 20:25, Jane Black wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/10/2019 12:11, alan_m wrote:
On 22/10/2019 11:02, Max Demian wrote:

Megapixels (and megabytes) are less than they used to be. 1,000,000
rather than 1,048,576.

Hard disks have always have always been 1MB = 1,000,000 Bytes

I dont think so

You are correct with the PC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412

...has no relevance to this duscussion...

Of course it does, its the first hard disk seen on the PC.

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST5...nual_Apr81.pdf

..implies the opposite...

No it does not. The lines specifying the formatted capacity
are clearly using 1,048,576. byte megabytes.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:36:41 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:03:35 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:54:32 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in
Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system
in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system
doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both.

Well I would have thought the 18 unit would be 18/13 times more efficient. But perhaps some units cope better with different temperatures, so one unit produces 9-18 SEER depending on the weather, and the other 11-13 SEER. If you're in a difficult climate, the other might become better.

What you think "might be" is irrelevant. What matters is what really is.
When you have something, anything, that shows a lower SEER unit becomes
better in some parts of the country than a higher SEER rated system,
let us know. What's next? An 80% eff furnace can use less energy for
the same amount of heat as a 95% furnace, depending on where you are?

Can you not understand that one unit may be better at the regulation test temperature, but the other unit may be better at a wider range of temperatures?

As an analogy, take car A and car B. Car A gets higher miles per gallon on the tests. But when you drive it a little bit faster, it burns huge amounts of petrol. Car B burns more at the test speed, but doesn't screw up when you drive faster.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:56:25 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 21:59, Robert wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.
A quick skim read also suggests that there is a difference in units used.
in the States the ratios are based on BTU of cooling divided by
electrical power in WATTS
And in Europe WATTS divided by WATTS

I may be wrong though!

BTU divided by watts is damn stupid. That's why I prefer COP. It's unitless. It's the ratio of power in to power out. Very easy to understand, I use 1kW of electricity and get 5kW of heat. Therefore COP is 5.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:46:09 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

What is this "heating" thing? ;-)

A good excuse to burn loads of fossil fuels and **** off the treehuggers. I love watching the flames in my gas boiler.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:14:23 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 19:10:55 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:11:51 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:23 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is
purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average
temperature
range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

That is "US" Seer. The Wiki article implies it is different than UK
SEER.
I really don't know since I am in the camp that it is largely
bull**** anyway. You may get a relative difference in efficiency
between 2 units but the absolute number is a fantasy.

If UK SEER is different, then they should call it something else, eg India SEER is called ISEER.

Anyway, as long as I can compare like with like, I can get a rough idea of the relative efficiencies. Any rating that's double the same rating on another model means it's about twice as good.

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applies to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason why split units would be more efficient?

"Single units" are typically window shakers and they get sold dirt
cheap, You can find higher efficiencies in window shakers, wall packs
and package units but they cost more.

The Panasonic I quoted ain't for a window, it's the wrong shape. But it's a single unit. I have no desire to have units all over my house. I just want to heat one room and the heat or cooling flows between the rooms through doorways.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:26:04 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:17:39 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 5:16:19 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.


Well, IDK what exactly you had. But you and Danny were comparing it to
a mini-split. A mini-split can and often is just two pieces one inside,
one outside. Some will support more than one inside unit. So, what you
say isn't a mini-split sounds like one to me, so far.

The word split suggests you get at least two indoor units.

Maybe to you, but not to the industry, the companies that build and
market them. The "split" refers to the fact that it's not a single
unit in a window type AC, the condenser and evaporator are in separate
units.







not central AC, because he claims that most single units are much
less that 13 SEER. You can't buy a central AC that's less than 13 SEER

In the USA perhaps. Other countries like the UK (where I live) don't have regulations on AC efficiency.

That's quite shocking, what with global warming and all the other things
being regulated and controlled in Europe as a result.

Global warming is bull****, and we don't use much AC. Eventually we'll use heat pumps for heating, then no doubt they'll introduce tree hugging bull****. But having left the EU, we might not.

and they go up to 20 and beyond. Window units are rated in EER,
and he may be confusing the two ratings.

No, this one lists SEER and EER.

[a] standard units have the compressor (cooling part)
fully on or off. The thermostat will kick it on
and, well, off as needed.

Not true with two stage AC or heat pumps.

Hence if you only (for simplified example) need 5,000
BTUs/hr to keep your place cooled down (let's say it's
only a tad warm outisde) and your system is rated with
a 24,000 BTU (two ton) output, it'll cycle on for one
minute, then off for four, on for 1, off for 4. Rinse,
cycle, repeat.

If it's not that hot outside, then the inside temperature,
once lowered, isn't going to bounce right back up again in
just four minutes. Typically it would run briefly a couple
times an hour.

I assume what Danny was saying is if running it on full blast, then the coils themselves will get very cold and hot, hence make it run less efficiently. Best to run a big engine slowly than a little engine fast - Top Gear (a UK motoring program) ran a test where a Toyota Prius drove as fast as possible round a race track, and a large BMW followed it. The BMW used less fuel!

Yes, I agree and have no issue with that. But I've never seen a system
where it runs on one minute, then off four. When it's not that hot outside
the AC runs long enough to drop the temperature down about a degree.
If it's mild outside, the inside temp isn't going back up a degree in
just four minutes. Now would anything close to a working, realistic
system cool off the place in just a minute, even on a mild day. Running
for 5 mins, then being off for 30 mins or an hour is what you see.

Agreed.

If you have a two stage unit, it will run more frequently at the lower
output on mild days. That helps move more air around, equalize temperature,
get more humidity out, etc. But the problem is that two stage costs
considerably more, I looked at it, decided it was not worth it.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 01:27:35 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bod F wrote:
On 10/22/2019 6:05 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:22:06 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:00:55 +0100, "Commander
Kinsey" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question, and you are the OP, but you ignored
it.

What am I supposed to do with the question? I don't know how SEER and EER are calculated for different countries, whether the country they're measured in is specified etc.


Buy the highest SEER model available to you that you can afford?

Best to take a look at the cost of electric and how much you use the
unit, what it costs to run. Makes no sense to me to buy a 20 SEER
unit that cost $3000 more, if it takes 30 years to get the money back.
The unit will probably be kaput in half that time.
I suppose it makes sense to some worried about their carbon footprint.

Agreed. When I'm ready to buy I'll list many of them in a spreadsheet and look at cost, reliability, SEER, etc, etc.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:29:37 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:36:41 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:03:35 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:54:32 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in
Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system
in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system
doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both.

Well I would have thought the 18 unit would be 18/13 times more efficient. But perhaps some units cope better with different temperatures, so one unit produces 9-18 SEER depending on the weather, and the other 11-13 SEER. If you're in a difficult climate, the other might become better.

What you think "might be" is irrelevant. What matters is what really is.
When you have something, anything, that shows a lower SEER unit becomes
better in some parts of the country than a higher SEER rated system,
let us know. What's next? An 80% eff furnace can use less energy for
the same amount of heat as a 95% furnace, depending on where you are?

Can you not understand that one unit may be better at the regulation test temperature, but the other unit may be better at a wider range of temperatures?

I doubt it, because what changes is the COP, the higher COP units
that cost more to build, should have curves that are better across
all temperature ranges. It's thermodynamics thing. Which is why
I said if you have something to show what you claim, that a lower SEER
unit can cost less to run in some environments than a higher SEER
unit, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.




As an analogy, take car A and car B. Car A gets higher miles per gallon on the tests. But when you drive it a little bit faster, it burns huge amounts of petrol. Car B burns more at the test speed, but doesn't screw up when you drive faster.

That likely doesn't exist either. A Porsche sucks at MPG across the range,
a Honda, even one of similar size, gets significantly better MPG across
the whole range where both cars can operate. You're not going to find
a magic speed where the Porsche somehow takes less fuel to run.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z923rjgzwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:51:55 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bl0zuwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:29 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z9096aqdwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:02:23 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

"Robert" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has
a
law
stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US
,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to
point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked
why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now.

Must be your age.

Nope, time of day. That was the middle of the night for me.

Your sleep patterns are as bad as mine.

Worse actually, much more variable. But in my case its because
I don't even lie in bed trying to sleep, I get up, do what I usually
do and then go back to bed later and go to sleep immediately.

Bit tricky for the people I know tho, very hard to predict
when I will be up.

I'm worse. I can be too sleepy to continue what I'm doing, but when I go
to bed I lie there for up to 2 hours before I can sleep.

I never get that, go to sleep very quickly
indeed, in minute or two, quite literally.

Alcohol and marijuana helps, but it's still not enough. And sleeping
tablets make me pass out instead of sleeping, which makes me feel like
****.

Never use them at all, even when I was in hospital
and the nurse encouraged me to. I didn't sleep
that well that night but was fine the next night.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 8:32:32 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?

Sure, we have heat pump systems here. But not in the really snowy parts
though, because it gets too cold and the heat pump systems don't perform
well, other solutions, eg nat gas or oil are used. And I don't mean
super cold places either. In the NYC area, for example, I've never
encountered a heat pump system. There are a very small, insignificant
number, but AFAIK, only ones using geothermal, not air ones.
They are common in the southern parts of the country.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z923x3v2wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:57:19 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bouj3wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:47:45 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US
,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

Presumably because we don't use AC much.

Yeah, likely.

Once they take over for heating, we'll no doubt get something.

In the EU anyway. Less clear with the UK. The UK
isnt so keen on mandated minimum efficiencys.
Most obviously with the stupid EU mandate with
vacuum cleaners.

Not sure when that came into effect, but I know someone with a 2kW vacuum
cleaner that she bought only about 5 years ago.

It was well after that.

Why on earth would you limit something that uses about 0.0000001% of the
world's electricity?

And when its so variable time of day wise so it
doesn't even affect the peak power demand.

Lie I said barking mad.

It's as daft as hosepipe bans.

That's not quite so bad given that a surprising
percentage of household water usage is to
water stupid lawns and gardens.

A few towns of ours are currently having
to have their entire water supply brought
in in ****ing great tanker trucks. Makes no
sense to be tipping that on the ground.

It's not often we run low on water in the UK,

Sure, but it does happen at times even
tho the place is usually very soggy.

but when we do, they ban hosepipes, despite domestic water use being only
5%, the rest is commercial.

That's not actually true with non industrial towns.

I just use one anyway then say I didn't know about the ban (which I
usually don't until someone tells me as I don't read newspapers).

Doesn't work here, we have street signs about the bans.

Or just fill a watering can with a hosepipe the use that. I ****ed off a
neighbour once by walking around the garden using a watering can with the
hose in it refilling it. She said "you're flouting the law!"

She's right and that's why she poisoned the cats.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z9236smiwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:27:03 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US
,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question.


Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

True and there is also the voltage rating too. What you lot call 240V two
phase is quite different to the UK 240V single phase.

No it isn't, apart from the frequency.

Yes it is.

All they have is the ability to centre tap it to get 120V. I doubt AC
does that.

It does anyway.

They also have 415V 3 phase for the bigger ACs too.

Not for most houses.

But do for bigger commercial premises, supermarkets etc.

To get 3 phase I'd have to pay the electricity company to install two
extra cables from the pavement to my house.

Some houses here have that, mostly for workshops.

I have two phase here because of the heatbank.

My two next door neighbours will probably have the other two phases, so it
won't be a long cable.

Ours all have individual feeds. In my street from the
street power lines on power poles and in the newer
subdivisions, what you lot call estates, its all underground
power with a separate feed for each block. Just watched
them do it in the last couple of weeks to the new block
of land in the new housing subdivision that a mate of
mine owns. Along with the water, gas, fiber optic internet.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z927qzb1wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:56:25 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 21:59, Robert wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.
A quick skim read also suggests that there is a difference in units used.
in the States the ratios are based on BTU of cooling divided by
electrical power in WATTS
And in Europe WATTS divided by WATTS

I may be wrong though!

BTU divided by watts is damn stupid. That's why I prefer COP. It's
unitless. It's the ratio of power in to power out.

But isnt as useful to work out which heat pump
will cost you less to run all winter in your location.
The better ones have bigger outside heat exchangers
that don't get so cold and so don't freeze up as much.

The COP doesn't tell you anything about that.

Very easy to understand,

But far less useful to determine which heat pump
will be cheaper to run in the winter at your place.

I use 1kW of electricity and get 5kW of heat. Therefore COP is 5.

See above.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z927scfkwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

The USA has snowy parts does it not?

Yes, but they mostly use gas for winter heating, not heat pumps.

Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?

Corse they do and actually invented them, but since they
have so much piped gas, the capital cost of a heap pump
is the the real downside with winter heating. Gas furnaces
are much simpler and cheaper and they are mostly air
heaters rather than your water radiator systems. Ours are
too, very few water radiator systems here, nearly all gas
fired air heaters using piped natural gas or bottled propane.

We used to have a lot of oil fired air heaters but I havent
seen any of those used for decades now. I used to have
one in the house I lived in in the 60s but havent since.

On 10/22/2019 9:46 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 08:29:13 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

What is this "heating" thing? ;-)


It is exactly what heat pumps do.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:17:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 5:16:19 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 20:43:19 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 2:32:30 PM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In op.z92p4mxowdg98l@glass "Commander Kinsey" writes:

Just had a reply elsewhere that said the USA 13 minimum SEER only applie=
s to split units, and that most single units are much lower. Any reason=
why split units would be more efficient?

A bunch of reasons:

1: "mini split" units tend to be inverter controlled,
with variable output cooling/heating. There's more
efficiency with a five degree temperature drop [a]
than a 20 degree one.

2: the mini splits aren't wasting energy pumping all
that air around through ducts. Also, less leakage
in places where, well, the conditioned air is leaking..

I assume by single units the poster was referring to window units,

It's not a window unit, it's not shaped to fit a window. But it has one inside part and one outside part, so works in the same way.


Well, IDK what exactly you had. But you and Danny were comparing it to
a mini-split. A mini-split can and often is just two pieces one inside,
one outside. Some will support more than one inside unit. So, what you
say isn't a mini-split sounds like one to me, so far.

It could be a wall pack like you see in motels, A Bard Wall hanger
like they use on construction trailers or a ducted package unit like
you see in a mobile home.
They can be pretty efficient, the government just doesn't say they
have to be.

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 23:28:59 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat
to run. They usually have electrical heating elements in the inside
duct work to help when it is very cold.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to near
zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually more
efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should not be
much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition. I would install
the heat pump and another form of heat.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have natural gas for the
heat and electric for the AC.

GSHP systems work well - well below zero F. Ground Source Heat Pumps.
Early ones pumped water from a well. Most current units run a glycol
loop - some use horizontal loops but many now use vertical as they
need less real estate. Getting pretty common up here.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
k.net...
In article op.z927scfkwdg98l@glass, says...

The USA has snowy parts does it not? Have they not realised you can
reverse those AC units?



I have a heat pump. It does the heating and cooling.

I live about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the US. We do not
usually have very many days where it gets below 15 deg F.

Heat pumps loose efficency below about 25 deg F. Around 15 deg F they
are really poor and probably cost as much as resistive electrical heat to
run.

Not with a big enough external heat exchanger.

They usually have electrical heating elements in
the inside duct work to help when it is very cold.

No they don't where the electricity isnt cheap.

That is the reason that most of the Norther states where it gets to
near zero F and lower the heat pumps are not used . It is usually
more efficent and less expensive to use other forms of heat.

I have never checked the price but I would think there should
not be much difference in a heat pump and plain air condition.

There isnt that big a difference if you don't care about the
poor performance when the outside air temp gets below 25F

I would install the heat pump and another form of heat.

Makes more sense to use a gas air heater when piped gas
is available and a sensible price. Much cheaper capital cost
and maintenance cost.

And there is also ground sourced heat pumps but they
are much more expensive again capital cost wise.

There are some units called a gas pack. They have
natural gas for the heat and electric for the AC.

Yeah, that's just a different way of doing gas powered
air heating for the winter, sharing the ducting and fan
with the summer and winter modes.

On 23/10/2019 04:28, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Heat pumps loose efficency
Oh? Where does it go off to?


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

On 23/10/2019 02:18, Rod Speed wrote:

The better ones have bigger outside heat exchangers
that don't get so cold and so don't freeze up as much.

As a matter of interest how does the (air) heat pump technology overcome
the problem with freezing up.

At some point the pump is extracting heat from cold air reducing the
temperature of the "exhaust". If there is enough moisture in the air it
will start freezing making the heat pump less efficient. Once frozen,
and in a long cold spell of weather, unless the icing up is removed the
heat pump may not be providing any usefull gain. Does de-icing rely on
the efficiency dropping and so the external box is being heated by the
supplied power?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 23/10/2019 08:58, alan_m wrote:
On 23/10/2019 02:18, Rod Speed wrote:

The better ones have bigger outside heat exchangers
that don't get so cold and so don't freeze up as much.

As a matter of interest how does the (air) heat pump technology overcome
the problem with freezing up.

At some point the pump is extracting heat from cold air reducing the
temperature of the "exhaust". If there is enough moisture in the air it
will start freezing making the heat pump less efficient. Once frozen,
and in a long cold spell of weather, unless the icing up is removed the
heat pump may not be providing any usefull gain. Does de-icing rely on
the efficiency dropping and so the external box is being heated by the
supplied power?


As with most green energyu projects, they let you down when you need
them the most...


--
Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:28:54 +1100, Jane Black, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile cretin's latest troll****

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

alan_m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The better ones have bigger outside heat exchangers
that don't get so cold and so don't freeze up as much.

As a matter of interest how does the (air) heat pump
technology overcome the problem with freezing up.

Like I said, by having a bigger heat exchanger outside
so that it doesn't get as cold and so doesn't freeze up.

At some point the pump is extracting heat from
cold air reducing the temperature of the "exhaust".

It isnt the exhaust when its being used as a heater.

If there is enough moisture in the air it will start freezing

Only if the temperature of the external heat
exchanger gets below freezing. It doesn't
have to if the air outside isnt below freezing.

making the heat pump less efficient.

Only if it doesn't have some way of getting the ice off

Once frozen, and in a long cold spell of weather,
unless the icing up is removed the heat pump
may not be providing any usefull gain.

But they all do have some way of getting rid of the ice.

Does de-icing rely on the efficiency dropping and so
the external box is being heated by the supplied power?

That's just one way of doing that. The other
obvious alternative is to reverse the process
for a short while to mel the ice.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:23:18 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


The SEER is a measure

Yes, THAT's the way to keep the sociopathic ****** returning to ahr, time
and again! He knows in what group the senile ones are especially eager to
feed him! VBG

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:41:09 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


I doubt it,

I doubt you senile idiots on ahr will ever understand what's wrong with that
clinically insane sociopathic ******. One just HAS to rub your nose in his
****, time and again, until you learn, like a stupid dog that needs to be
house-trained.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:17:39 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


Yes, I agree

That's because you ARE a senile piece of ****, you troll-feeding senile
asshole!

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 17:35:06 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


Maybe to you,

Just what is it with you senile Yanks! NO other people keep falling for that
known troll's silly antics in the way you senile morons do! It's a FACT!
Guess why he comes here (to ahr, of all groups) time and again! Poor doomed
America! tsk