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Heat pump SEER rating
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!
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Heat pump SEER rating
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps |
Heat pump SEER rating
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:50:32 +0100, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps I don't believe you. There is no way they can be twice as efficient with a different input voltage or frequency. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:58:53 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:50:32 +0100, A noiseless patient Spider wrote: On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps I don't believe you. There is no way they can be twice as efficient with a different input voltage or frequency. You are right and that guy is wrong on several things. To start with we have single phase, just like you, just a slightly different frequency. Conventional HVAC units run on 240v. It really doesn't matter tho if the motors are optimized for the frequency. If you buy a mini split it doesn't matter at all. They use inverter supplies and convert the voltage to DC as soon as it gets inside. Then it is converted to the voltage they need for the unit. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:04:22 +0100, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:58:53 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:50:32 +0100, A noiseless patient Spider wrote: On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps I don't believe you. There is no way they can be twice as efficient with a different input voltage or frequency. You are right and that guy is wrong on several things. To start with we have single phase, just like you, just a slightly different frequency. Conventional HVAC units run on 240v. It really doesn't matter tho if the motors are optimized for the frequency. If you buy a mini split it doesn't matter at all. They use inverter supplies and convert the voltage to DC as soon as it gets inside. Then it is converted to the voltage they need for the unit. Thought so. So why are Panasonic making such inefficient units? Are they just cheaper versions that are only available to buy outside the US? For example this is £450, and has a SEER of only 7.5, whereas your law specifies 13 minimum: https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/ (Scroll down and click specifications). |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z900kobiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C Are you taking about heating or cooling ? |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z900kobiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C But they get used for heating here too, and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas boilers by some stupid EU treehugger law. I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed. Are you taking about heating or cooling ? I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking at what mode the SEER applies to. |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z900kobiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C But they get used for heating here too, Those by definition have a much worse SEER when heating because the outside freezes up in the conditions you lot have in winter. and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas boilers by some stupid EU treehugger law. The UK will be out of the EU by then. Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis gorgers may well be back in the EU by then. I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed. Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse. Are you taking about heating or cooling ? I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking at what mode the SEER applies to. That must be spelled out on there somewhere. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. |
Troll-feeding Senile ASSHOLE Alert! LOL
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 15:50:32 -0400, "A noiseless patient Spider", another
mentally challenged, troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered: It's because And troll-feeding senile idiot no.1 came running along to quickly take the clinically insane attention whore's latest idiotic bait! BG |
Troll-feeding YANKIETARD Alert! LOL
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Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 07:15:21 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH more of the two trolling asshole's stinking troll**** ....and much better air in here, again! -- Another typical retarded "conversation" between the two resident idiots: Birdbrain: "But imagine how cool it was to own slaves." Senile Rodent: "Yeah, right. Feed them, clothe them, and fix them when they're broken. After all, you paid good money for them. Then you've got to keep an eye on them all the time." Birdbrain: "Better than having to give them wages on top of that." Senile Rodent: "Specially when they make more slaves for you and produce their own food and clothes." MID: |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:51:12 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z900kobiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C But they get used for heating here too, Those by definition have a much worse SEER when heating because the outside freezes up in the conditions you lot have in winter. Yes, but I'd expect the best SEER rating to be quoted if they only quote one. and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas boilers by some stupid EU treehugger law. The UK will be out of the EU by then. But we might end up keeping the stupid law. Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis gorgers may well be back in the EU by then. I ****ing hope not, that stupid SNP woman was told no once. I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed. Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse. But can still work out cheaper than gas. Are you taking about heating or cooling ? I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking at what mode the SEER applies to. That must be spelled out on there somewhere. It isn't. Go here and click specifications: https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/ |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? |
Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 07:51:12 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH another load of troll**** by the two retarded idiots -- TYPICAL retarded "conversation" between sociopath Rodent and sociopath Birdbrain from August 26th 2018: Birdbrain: "I have one head but 5 fingers." Senile Rodent: "Obvious lie. You hairy legged cross dressers are so inbred that you all have two heads." Birdbrain: "You're the one that likes hairy legs remember?" Senile Rodent: "The problem isnt the hairy legs, it's the gross inbreeding that produces two headed unemployables like you." Birdbrain: "So why did you mention hairy legs?" Senile Rodent: "Because that's what those who arent actually stupid enough to shave their legs have." Birdbrain: "You only have hairy legs if both of the following are true: 1) You're quite far back on the evolutionary scale. 2) You haven't learned what a razor is for." Senile Rodent: "Only a terminal ****wit or a woman shaves their legs." Birdbrain: "There is literally zero point in having hair all over your body." Senile Rodent: "There is even less point in wasting your time changing what you are born with." MID: |
Heat pump SEER rating
On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.* Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during the winter in climates such as the UK? Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote: On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during the winter in climates such as the UK? Is that necessary? If it's reversible, isn't it just that? Obviously it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a larger gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be helped. Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising. Don't they have a government body to check they're honest? And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is a lie. Cameras with less megapixels than they say, batteries with less capacity than they say, etc. Every time I buy something like that, I test it thoroughly, then get a partial refund :-) |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Robert" wrote in message ... On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now. |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z903yuhawdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:51:12 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z900kobiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C But they get used for heating here too, Those by definition have a much worse SEER when heating because the outside freezes up in the conditions you lot have in winter. Yes, but I'd expect the best SEER rating to be quoted if they only quote one. and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas boilers by some stupid EU treehugger law. The UK will be out of the EU by then. But we might end up keeping the stupid law. Yeah, could well do given you lot have your own stupidity with electric cars. Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis gorgers may well be back in the EU by then. I ****ing hope not, that stupid SNP woman was told no once. But clearly doesn't care and is demanding another. And presumably another until she gets what she wants. I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed. Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse. But can still work out cheaper than gas. Sure, that was just a comment on your original about why you see what you see with SEERs, not saying that it isnt worth doing that way. If my place wasn't passive solar by design I likely would have a heat pump myself. Not because of any ban on gas, we arent stupid enough to do that, but because the gas price has hiked very dramatically here. I don't have gas connected to the house but it is available down the street if I want it. Are you taking about heating or cooling ? I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking at what mode the SEER applies to. That must be spelled out on there somewhere. It isn't. Bet it is. Go here and click specifications: https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/ It will be somewhere else with an operation like Panasonic. |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z903zpzpwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, Nope, the S is for SEASONAL and that varys a lot between those areas. That soggy little frigid island of yours is nothing like what is seen in Texas etc. Its not unusual to get 10 days in a row over 40C here. all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? Those arent SEASONAL, stupid. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? From Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on the energy performance of buildings (EPBD" Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman.. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:02:23 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Robert" wrote in message ... On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now. Must be your age. |
Heat pump SEER rating
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those sold in the US and UK? Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER? |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:09:48 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z903yuhawdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:51:12 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z900kobiwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good as the minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them? The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C But they get used for heating here too, Those by definition have a much worse SEER when heating because the outside freezes up in the conditions you lot have in winter. Yes, but I'd expect the best SEER rating to be quoted if they only quote one. and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas boilers by some stupid EU treehugger law. The UK will be out of the EU by then. But we might end up keeping the stupid law. Yeah, could well do given you lot have your own stupidity with electric cars. What stupidity would that be? Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis gorgers may well be back in the EU by then. I ****ing hope not, that stupid SNP woman was told no once. But clearly doesn't care and is demanding another. And presumably another until she gets what she wants. Shouldn't be allowed. The vote should have been binding for x years. I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed. Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse. But can still work out cheaper than gas. Sure, that was just a comment on your original about why you see what you see with SEERs, not saying that it isnt worth doing that way. The SEER for cooling is always higher. This is the one the USA is presumably making laws about, as they use them for AC a lot. It's also (since it's higher) the one that the company would quote, surely? If my place wasn't passive solar by design I likely would have a heat pump myself. Your house is entirely heated by the greenhouse effect through windows? Don't you ever get a few days in a row with no sun? Not because of any ban on gas, we arent stupid enough to do that, but because the gas price has hiked very dramatically here. Yip, price should always be the deciding factor, it sorts things automatically. As stuff becomes scarce, cheaper alternatives are found. I don't have gas connected to the house but it is available down the street if I want it. Thought you loved cooking? Many cooks seem to prefer gas. Are you taking about heating or cooling ? I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking at what mode the SEER applies to. That must be spelled out on there somewhere. It isn't. Bet it is. Go here and click specifications: https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/ It will be somewhere else with an operation like Panasonic. Find it then. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:29:42 +0100, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those sold in the US and UK? Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER? Ah, so SEER is calculated according to likely weather locally? Doesn't that mean if I looked at the exact same model for sale in two countries, the SEER rating would be different? |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:12:33 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z903zpzpwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, Nope, the S is for SEASONAL and that varys a lot between those areas. That soggy little frigid island of yours is nothing like what is seen in Texas etc. Its not unusual to get 10 days in a row over 40C here. all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? Those arent SEASONAL, stupid. It does not make sense to have SEER be different depending where you live. How then can a product have a rating? They don't know whether you're going to install it in Texas or wherever. They'd have to say "SEER (Texas) 17, SEER (Washington) 15" etc. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? From Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on the energy performance of buildings (EPBD" ISEER is profiled in Indian weather. SEER is presumably defined on American weather (which is daft as America has vastly different climates across it). So what is sensible in the UK? I think I'd be better off comparing COP. It doesn't have any input from the seasons, so is better for directly comparing two AC units from different manufacturers. Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman.. Like miles per gallon on cars? Some manufacturers lie more than others? |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z908xwllwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote: On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during the winter in climates such as the UK? Is that necessary? For the best SEER rating, yep. If it's reversible, isn't it just that? Nope. The problem with using them for heating in a climate like yours is that the outside heat collector does ice up and you need a much bigger outside heat absorber to get the best SEER rating for winter heating. You don't get that effect with summer aircons. Obviously it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a larger gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be helped. It can actually with two stage designs. Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising. Don't they have a government body to check they're honest? Nope. And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is a lie. Not a lie so much as its hard to come up with a single digit number that really does rank the devices properly, even with something as simple as a fridge or freezer, let alone a heat pump. Cameras with less megapixels than they say, That's not a rating, that's a lie about the specs. batteries with less capacity than they say, etc. Ditto. But that doesn't happen with the best of them like the Panasonic Li ion batterys or the apple iphone batterys Its more complicated with smartphone talk time which varys quite a bit depending on whether you are in a strong signal area or a weak one where the phone need to transmit more power to be seen by the base. Every time I buy something like that, I test it thoroughly, then get a partial refund :-) You don't with Panasonic Li ion batterys. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? From Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on the energy performance of buildings (EPBD" Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman.. It amuses me that SEER is mostly used in America, but it uses *British* Thermal Units in the calculation!! |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? From Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on the energy performance of buildings (EPBD" Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman.. This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range: https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/ "SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is purchasing the air conditioner lives. Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each." |
Heat pump SEER rating
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z9096aqdwdg98l@glass... On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:02:23 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Robert" wrote in message ... On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now. Must be your age. Nope, time of day. That was the middle of the night for me. |
Heat pump SEER rating
"micky" wrote in message ... In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those sold in the US and UK? Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER? Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't. |
Heat pump SEER rating
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote: "micky" wrote in message .. . In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those sold in the US and UK? This is the more important question. Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER? Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't. No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if there's a minimum EER. BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different, they're probably not the very same. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey" wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same? From Wikipedia "In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on the energy performance of buildings (EPBD" Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman.. This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range: https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/ "SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is purchasing the air conditioner lives. Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each." OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:44:45 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z908xwllwdg98l@glass... On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote: On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote: Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase 50 Hz is less efficient. https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning to cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during the winter in climates such as the UK? Is that necessary? For the best SEER rating, yep. If it's reversible, isn't it just that? Nope. The problem with using them for heating in a climate like yours is that the outside heat collector does ice up and you need a much bigger outside heat absorber to get the best SEER rating for winter heating. Argh, so I really need to find data for the heating and the cooling cycle. You don't get that effect with summer aircons. Obviously it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a larger gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be helped. It can actually with two stage designs. Two seperate circuits? Two condensers etc? Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising. Don't they have a government body to check they're honest? Nope. And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is a lie. Not a lie so much as its hard to come up with a single digit number that really does rank the devices properly, even with something as simple as a fridge or freezer, let alone a heat pump. Bull****. A camera makes a certain number of pixels. A battery has a certain number of amp hours. For example, I bought a "Probat" (****ty make) car battery, and an Exide (good make) car battery. They were both rated at 45 Ah. I charged them both fully. Then I connected each to a car headlamp bulb, drawing about 4 amps. I measured the current over time and worked out the real Ah. The Exide was almost spot on, about 43 Ah.. The Probat was 32 Ah. I got a partial refund when I yelled at the seller. Cameras have the same problem. My Fuji camera claims 10MP. But it's very easy to determine it's actually about 2.5MP. Take a picture at full resolution in favourable lighting. Load it into Photoshop and reduce the size to 2.5MP. Save it. Load it again, then enlarge back to 10MP. Clearly this image now only has 2.5MP of data. Compare this image to the original from the camera. They're identical! So the camera was giving out no more data than a 2.5MP file. They lied. Cameras with less megapixels than they say, That's not a rating, that's a lie about the specs. Rating, specs, same thing. It's a number defining the capabilities of the device. batteries with less capacity than they say, etc. Ditto. But that doesn't happen with the best of them like the Panasonic Li ion batterys or the apple iphone batterys Iphone! BUAHAHAAH!!! Everyone I know with an Iphone is constantly moaning it went flat. My £13 phone lasts for WEEKS between charges. What Apple did wrong was the same mistake Clive Sinclair made - making things smaller to the cost of everything else. No room for enough battery. My phone uses two 18650 Li Ion batteries - same as a cycle lamp - total is 4.2V 6Ah. Easy to get replacements too. Oh and you don't need special tools to open the battery cover. And the phone doesn't deliberately disable itself if an unauthorised person opens it. Its more complicated with smartphone talk time which varys quite a bit depending on whether you are in a strong signal area or a weak one where the phone need to transmit more power to be seen by the base. Yes, a phone can't guarantee battery life, but the battery itself can state a very precise Ah. They could also simply quote the measurement along with the conditions required. Eg. this car will get 50mpg if you drive on a motorway at a constant 70mph. Or this phone will allow you to talk for 3 hours if your signal strength is 90%. Every time I buy something like that, I test it thoroughly, then get a partial refund :-) You don't with Panasonic Li ion batterys. Agreed - they don't lie. I have 6 of those 18650 Panasonics here. 3Ah on the label, 3Ah on my test. Even Samsung only get 80% of their rating.. But try Chinese **** and you get 20%! |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:29 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message news:op.z9096aqdwdg98l@glass... On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:02:23 +0100, Rod Speed wrote: "Robert" wrote in message ... On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now. Must be your age. Nope, time of day. That was the middle of the night for me. Your sleep patterns are as bad as mine. |
Heat pump SEER rating
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote: "micky" wrote in message ... In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote: On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote: Commander Kinsey wrote Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US , Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different figures. So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those sold in the US and UK? This is the more important question. Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER? Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't. No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if there's a minimum EER. One is proportional to the other. SEER assumes a set temperature. BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different, they're probably not the very same. What is cps? |
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