On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:47:45 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

Presumably because we don't use AC much. Once they take over for heating, we'll no doubt get something.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:54:32 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in
Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system
in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system
doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both.

Well I would have thought the 18 unit would be 18/13 times more efficient. But perhaps some units cope better with different temperatures, so one unit produces 9-18 SEER depending on the weather, and the other 11-13 SEER. If you're in a difficult climate, the other might become better.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:44:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

It amuses me that SEER is mostly used in America, but it uses *British* Thermal Units in the calculation!!

Farther down in that article they link the US SEER calculation model
that is different but the US uses the same SEER across the country.
When people turn on the A/C, the temp is probably going to be the same
whether you are in Florida or Chicago. In fact those northerners may
actually be more sensitive to a warm day than we are. I know the snow
birds seem to die down here when it is 80 and my wife might still be
wearing a sweater. OTOH at night she wants it 65-70 in the bedroom.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:23 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is
purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature
range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

That is "US" Seer. The Wiki article implies it is different than UK
SEER.
I really don't know since I am in the camp that it is largely
bull**** anyway. You may get a relative difference in efficiency
between 2 units but the absolute number is a fantasy.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:51:47 -0400, micky
wrote:

BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

If it is an inverter machine, the differences would be minimal if any
at all. Inverter power supplies pretty much treat all inputs the same.
That is why they have such a "wide mouth".

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91ab0suwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:09:48 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903yuhawdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:51:12 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z901rxwiwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:15:21 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z900kobiwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:54:58 +0100, Rod Speed

wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating?
The USA has a law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the
UK, I looked at Panasonic and they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

That doesn't explain why Panasonic (which are good aren't they?) are
manufacturing a product which is not much better than half as good
as
the
minimum required by US law. Is it old **** they're selling to other
countries because the Americans aren't allowed to buy them?

The higher SEER rating costs more and you lot don't need the
higher air conditioning capability in your summers where you
lot start whining about a heat wave when its only 25C

But they get used for heating here too,

Those by definition have a much worse SEER
when heating because the outside freezes
up in the conditions you lot have in winter.

Yes, but I'd expect the best SEER rating to be quoted if they only quote
one.

and will be a lot more as houses built after 2025 cannot have gas
boilers
by some stupid EU treehugger law.

The UK will be out of the EU by then.

But we might end up keeping the stupid law.

Yeah, could well do given you lot have
your own stupidity with electric cars.

What stupidity would that be?

Mandating a move to them on some date in the
future that I am too lazy to check because there
is no chance that that will even happen then.

Tho you stupid hairy legged cross dressing haggis
gorgers may well be back in the EU by then.

I ****ing hope not, that stupid SNP woman was told no once.

But clearly doesn't care and is demanding another.

And presumably another until she gets what she wants.

Shouldn't be allowed. The vote should have been binding for x years.

Politics doesn't work like that even with general elections.

I'm already seeing new houses with heatpumps installed.

Sure, but the SEER for heating is always much worse.

But can still work out cheaper than gas.

Sure, that was just a comment on your original
about why you see what you see with SEERs,
not saying that it isnt worth doing that way.

The SEER for cooling is always higher.

Yep because you never see the icing problem
with cooling and the temperature difference is
lower even here were 45C isnt at all uncommon.

This is the one the USA is presumably making laws about, as they use them
for AC a lot.

Yeah, its really the only viable way to do cooling
unless it's a very low humidity area where you can
use what the call swamp coolers which just have a
****ing great fan and woodwool pads with water
running over them. That's what I use myself, but
its very common to have single digit humiditys
here when you need cooling.

MUCH cheaper to run than an AC.

It's also (since it's higher) the one that the company would quote,
surely?

Normally, but that may just be a quirk of SEERs
and not seen with EERs which should quote both.

If my place wasn't passive solar by design
I likely would have a heat pump myself.

Your house is entirely heated by the greenhouse effect through windows?

Not just the greenhouse effect, the sun comes
right inside the house in winter and heats the
massive great concrete slab directly as well.

And in winter I bask in the direct sun I sit in too.

Don't you ever get a few days in a row with no sun?

Not very often at all. And I have what the manufacturers
call a heated throw which is like an electric blanket that you
have on top of you in the armchair or couch for those days.

Not because of any ban on gas, we arent
stupid enough to do that, but because the
gas price has hiked very dramatically here.

Yip, price should always be the deciding factor, it sorts things
automatically.

But can be a big problem over time. Lots converted
their cars to dual fuel here, gas and petrol, but there
is no point in doing that anymore now that the price
of the gas has hiked so dramatically over time here.

As stuff becomes scarce, cheaper alternatives are found.

Not always, sometimes its just stops being viable anymore.

I don't have gas connected to the house but
it is available down the street if I want it.

Thought you loved cooking?

Nope, I'd much prefer to never have to do it again.
I only do it to get a better result than I can buy.

Many cooks seem to prefer gas.

Yes, but not for the sort of food I prefer to eat.

Almost all the food I eat is done in a digital air
fryer now except steaks and pizzas. I don't stir
fry much at all and do all the veg in the microwave
except the stuff eaten uncooked like lettuce.

Are you taking about heating or cooling ?

I want it for both. It's not clear from the Panasonic I was looking
at what mode the SEER applies to.

That must be spelled out on there somewhere.

It isn't.

Bet it is.

Go here and click specifications:
https://www.aircon.panasonic.eu/GB_e...er-silver-r32/

It will be somewhere else with an operation like Panasonic.

Find it then.

Too lazy because I don't plan to buy one.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91agyq1wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:12:33 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z903zpzpwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same,

Nope, the S is for SEASONAL and that varys a lot
between those areas. That soggy little frigid island
of yours is nothing like what is seen in Texas etc.

Its not unusual to get 10 days in a row over 40C here.

all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

Those arent SEASONAL, stupid.

It does not make sense to have SEER be different depending where you live.

Yes it does, because that's what you actually care about,
how well the various heat pumps will perform with your
seasonal conditions. If for example your winter overnight
minimums don't see the outside heat collector freeze up
because its big enough for your minimums, that's what
matters for you.

How then can a product have a rating?

By measuring how well it handles low temps etc with a winter heat pump.

They don't know whether you're going to install it in Texas or wherever.

But that's why the USA has different SEERs to europe for the same device.

They'd have to say "SEER (Texas) 17, SEER (Washington) 15" etc.

It doesn't vary that much with summer cooling but it does with winter
heating.

And with summer cooling with swamp coolers too.

It's a rather crude rating but better than nothing.

"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
. ..
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question.


Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

True and there is also the voltage rating too. What you lot call 240V two
phase
is quite different to the UK 240V single phase. They also have 415V 3 phase
for
the bigger ACs too.

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:03:35 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:54:32 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is purchasing the air conditioner lives..

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in
Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system
in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system
doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both.

Well I would have thought the 18 unit would be 18/13 times more efficient.. But perhaps some units cope better with different temperatures, so one unit produces 9-18 SEER depending on the weather, and the other 11-13 SEER. If you're in a difficult climate, the other might become better.

What you think "might be" is irrelevant. What matters is what really is.
When you have something, anything, that shows a lower SEER unit becomes
better in some parts of the country than a higher SEER rated system,
let us know. What's next? An 80% eff furnace can use less energy for
the same amount of heat as a 95% furnace, depending on where you are?

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bk6w7wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:44:45 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z908xwllwdg98l@glass...
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 23:23:19 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase. Your single-phase
50
Hz is less efficient.

https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

Doesn't it also depend on if it's been optimised for air conditioning
to
cool air in the summer rather than being optimised for heating during
the winter in climates such as the UK?

Is that necessary?

For the best SEER rating, yep.

If it's reversible, isn't it just that?

Nope. The problem with using them for heating
in a climate like yours is that the outside heat
collector does ice up and you need a much
bigger outside heat absorber to get the best
SEER rating for winter heating.

Argh, so I really need to find data for the heating and the cooling cycle.

You don't get that effect with summer aircons.

Obviously it will be less efficient when it's pushing heat through a
larger gradient (which will happen in heating mode), but that can't be
helped.

It can actually with two stage designs.

Two seperate circuits? Two condensers etc?

Yep, to help with the much bigger temperature
difference seen with winter heating.

Consider also it appears from many of the examples I've seen honesty
doesn't seem to be part of USA advertising.

Don't they have a government body to check they're honest?

Nope.

And it ain't just the USA - almost everything you buy with a rating is a
lie.

Not a lie so much as its hard to come up with a single digit number
that really does rank the devices properly, even with something as
simple as a fridge or freezer, let alone a heat pump.

Bull****. A camera makes a certain number of pixels.

That's not a rating, that's a spec.

A battery has a certain number of amp hours.

Again, that's not a rating, that's a spec.

For example, I bought a "Probat" (****ty make) car battery, and an Exide
(good make) car battery. They were both rated at 45 Ah.

Again, that's not a rating, that's a spec.

I charged them both fully. Then I connected each to a car headlamp bulb,
drawing about 4 amps. I measured the current over time and worked out the
real Ah. The Exide was almost spot on, about 43 Ah. The Probat was 32
Ah. I got a partial refund when I yelled at the seller.

Sure, but that's not a rating, that's a spec.

Cameras have the same problem. My Fuji camera claims 10MP. But it's
very easy to determine it's actually about 2.5MP.

That's a different problem, optical and physical MPs.

Take a picture at full resolution in favourable lighting. Load it into
Photoshop and reduce the size to 2.5MP. Save it. Load it again, then
enlarge back to 10MP. Clearly this image now only has 2.5MP of data.
Compare this image to the original from the camera. They're identical!
So the camera was giving out no more data than a 2.5MP file. They lied.

Nope, you don't understand the difference
between optical and physical MPs.

Cameras with less megapixels than they say,

That's not a rating, that's a lie about the specs.

Rating, specs, same thing.

Nope.

It's a number defining the capabilities of the device.

Ratings arent, specs are.

batteries with less capacity than they say, etc.

Ditto. But that doesn't happen with the best of them like
the Panasonic Li ion batterys or the apple iphone batterys

Iphone! BUAHAHAAH!!! Everyone I know with an Iphone is constantly
moaning it went flat.

I don't and my mates Samsung Galaxy S10 goes flat
a lot quicker when we are talking to each other for
hours during the garage sale run and after that.

My £13 phone lasts for WEEKS between charges.

But doesn't do anything like what a smartphone does.

What Apple did wrong was the same mistake Clive Sinclair made - making
things smaller to the cost of everything else.

Not with ipads they didn't.

No room for enough battery.

Same with all smartphones.

My phone uses two 18650 Li Ion batteries - same as a cycle lamp - total is
4.2V 6Ah.

And does **** all that a smartphone does.

Easy to get replacements too. Oh and you don't need special tools to open
the battery cover.

And does **** all that a smartphone does.

And the phone doesn't deliberately disable itself if an unauthorised
person opens it.

iphones don't do that.

Its more complicated with smartphone talk time which
varys quite a bit depending on whether you are in a
strong signal area or a weak one where the phone
need to transmit more power to be seen by the base.

Yes, a phone can't guarantee battery life, but the battery itself can
state a very precise Ah.

And that's a spec, not a rating.

They could also simply quote the measurement along with the conditions
required.

They do.

Eg. this car will get 50mpg if you drive on a motorway at a constant
70mph.

And that still doesn't tell you what result you
will actually get with particular air temps etc.

Or this phone will allow you to talk for 3 hours if your signal strength
is 90%.

There is no signal strength you can do that with.

Every time I buy something like that, I test it thoroughly, then get a
partial refund :-)

You don't with Panasonic Li ion batterys.

Agreed - they don't lie. I have 6 of those 18650 Panasonics here. 3Ah on
the label, 3Ah on my test. Even Samsung only get 80% of their rating.

Its not a rating, it's a spec.

But try Chinese **** and you get 20%!

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bl0zuwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:46:29 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z9096aqdwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:02:23 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

"Robert" wrote in message
...
On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law
stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio

Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to
point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked
why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now.

Must be your age.

Nope, time of day. That was the middle of the night for me.

Your sleep patterns are as bad as mine.

Worse actually, much more variable. But in my case its because
I don't even lie in bed trying to sleep, I get up, do what I usually
do and then go back to bed later and go to sleep immediately.

Bit tricky for the people I know tho, very hard to predict
when I will be up.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bnt1mwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic
and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very
different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question.

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

One is proportional to the other. SEER assumes a set temperature.

BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

What is cps?

cycles per second, mains frequency, Hz, They have 60 you and I have 50

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z91bouj3wdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:47:45 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

Presumably because we don't use AC much.

Yeah, likely.

Once they take over for heating, we'll no doubt get something.

In the EU anyway. Less clear with the UK. The UK
isnt so keen on mandated minimum efficiencys.
Most obviously with the stupid EU mandate with
vacuum cleaners.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 01:00:55 +0100, "Commander
Kinsey" wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:51:47 +0100, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

So if he compared the EERs, he'd get a fair comparison between those
sold in the US and UK?

This is the more important question, and you are the OP, but you ignored
it.



This is the more important question.

Does the US have a regulation on minimum EER?

Presumably you mean the UK. No they don't.

No, I meant the US. He says there's a minimum SEER, but I'm curious if
there's a minimum EER.

One is proportional to the other. SEER assumes a set temperature.


BTW, a good chance you can't find the exact same model number in the US
vs. UK, even if they were the very same, but since the cps is different,
they're probably not the very same.

What is cps?

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:59:20 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

My Fuji camera claims 10MP. But it's very easy to determine it's actually about 2.5MP. Take a picture at full resolution in favourable lighting. Load it into Photoshop and reduce the size to 2.5MP. Save it. Load it again, then enlarge back to 10MP. Clearly this image now only has 2.5MP of data. Compare this image to the original from the camera. They're identical! So the camera was giving out no more data than a 2.5MP file. They lied.

Not necessarily. They are just telling you what CCD is in there. You
can verify that easily by looking at the image properties.
I bet it is around 10MP.
What they don't say is whether the optics can actually resolve a
picture with that detail. You may find many adjacent pixels have
exactly the same data so when you compress and expand it, the result
is so close you can't see the difference.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:27:03 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

True and there is also the voltage rating too. What you lot call 240V two
phase

Only morons cal our power distribution 2 phase. The only difference
between the US and UK/NZ or OZ is where they land the ground. It is
all single phase. Heavy users on both situations may actually get all
3 phases from the PoCo.
We center tap a 240v single phase secondary to divide it into two 120v
sources but most central air units still run on 240 and you can get a
mini split either way. (I have one each)
Two phase is a whole different breed of cat and pretty much obsolete
since before WWII. There may only be two small areas in the whole US
that have a little two phase (Philly and Hartford CT) and it comes
from Scott T transformers, not generation. The input is 3 phase.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:36:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:03:35 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:54:32 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often dont realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is
purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average
temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in
Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system
in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system
doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both.

Well I would have thought the 18 unit would be 18/13 times more efficient. But perhaps some units cope better with different temperatures, so one unit produces 9-18 SEER depending on the weather, and the other 11-13 SEER. If you're in a difficult climate, the other might become better.

What you think "might be" is irrelevant. What matters is what really is.
When you have something, anything, that shows a lower SEER unit becomes
better in some parts of the country than a higher SEER rated system,
let us know. What's next? An 80% eff furnace can use less energy for
the same amount of heat as a 95% furnace, depending on where you are?



I doubt anyone thinks that but you might not actually see the rated
SEER they advertise depending on where you live (probably NEVER
according to the HVAC guys I know). It is just a relative rating and a
theoretical number assuming everything was perfect.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:06:03 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:36:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 8:03:35 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:54:32 +0100, trader_4 wrote:

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:46:27 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 00:18:44 +0100, wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 22:15:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:59:03 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 21/10/2019 20:54, Rod Speed wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season...ficiency_ratio
Which suggests that the seasonal weighting parameters used in the US ,
Europe and possibly UK are all different which will give very different
figures.

Surely all SEER are the same, all EER are the same, and all COP are the same?

From Wikipedia
"In the United Kingdom, a Seasonal Energy Efficiency ratio (SEER) for
refrigeration and air conditioning products, similar to the ESEER but
with different load profile weighting factors, is used for part of the
Building Regulations Part L calculations within the Simplified
Building Energy Model (SBEM) software, and are used in the production
of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC) for new buildings within the
UK and the European Union; both as part of the European directive on
the energy performance of buildings (EPBD"

Since most of this stuff comes from China anyway I would be surprised
it is that much different if at all. This really might just be the way
they get rated in UK. I know most HVAC people say that SEER thing is
bull**** anyway as soon as they get away from the salesman..

This website claims that SEER is always measured the same, assuming a certain temperature range:

https://asm-air.com/airconditioning/...r-what-is-eer/

"SEER can be misleading. What people often don’t realize is that SEER is a ratio that only applies to a very specific set of test parameters which cover a pre-set temperature range. The problem with this is that when SEER is calculated it is calculated across the same universal range, regardless of where the person who is
purchasing the air conditioner lives.

Ask yourself, when was the last time that it was 65 degrees in the summer if you live in Santa Clarita, California? Probably a lot less likely than if you live in Lake Arrowhead or worse yet, Seattle, Washington. So although SEER is a universal measure of efficiency, it can be misleading in the sense that the average
temperature range in Santa Clarita is far different from the average summer temperatures in Bozeman, Montana, but yet the same SEER rating would be on the tag in each."

OK, so suppose we have a system that's rated 13 SEER and we run it in
Santa Clarita CA and we run it in Seattle. We run an 18 SEER system
in both of those locations too. Show us where the 18 SEER system
doesn't use less energy for the amount of heat moved in both.

Well I would have thought the 18 unit would be 18/13 times more efficient. But perhaps some units cope better with different temperatures, so one unit produces 9-18 SEER depending on the weather, and the other 11-13 SEER. If you're in a difficult climate, the other might become better.

What you think "might be" is irrelevant. What matters is what really is.
When you have something, anything, that shows a lower SEER unit becomes
better in some parts of the country than a higher SEER rated system,
let us know. What's next? An 80% eff furnace can use less energy for
the same amount of heat as a 95% furnace, depending on where you are?



I doubt anyone thinks that but you might not actually see the rated
SEER they advertise depending on where you live (probably NEVER
according to the HVAC guys I know). It is just a relative rating and a
theoretical number assuming everything was perfect.
Generally speeking it is a "benchmark" - a base of camparison. A-18
will be better than a 13. Neither one is liable to actually meet the
advertized efficiency in real world conditions - but one can generally
be expected to be about 30%? more efficient than the other?

On 21/10/2019 20:50, A noiseless patient Spider wrote:
On 10/21/2019 3:20 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!


It's because we use 120/240 volt 60 Hz two-phase.Â* Your single-phase 50
Hz is less efficient.


That is cobblers. I've seen efficient motors runbing off 3V DC.


https://www.energystar.gov/products/...rce_heat_pumps

And that doesnt support the contention either.




--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a law
stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:44:45 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

Didn't I tell you to **** off from normally evolved humans' ngs, you
abnormal senile Ozzie pest?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:53:00 -0400, , the disgusting,
troll-feeding senile Yankietard, blathered again:


Not necessarily.

He will necessarily come in your senile mouth, the way you keep sucking him
off, time and again, senile gfretard!

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:09:48 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane ****heads' latest idiotic troll**** unread

--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between the two resident idiots:

Birdbrain: "But imagine how cool it was to own slaves."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, right. Feed them, clothe them, and fix them when
they're broken.
After all, you paid good money for them. Then you've got to keep an eye
on them all the time."

Birdbrain: "Better than having to give them wages on top of that."

Senile Rodent: "Specially when they make more slaves for you
and produce their own food and clothes."

MID:

....and much better air in here, again!

--
TYPICAL retarded "conversation" between sociopath Rodent and sociopath
Birdbrain from August 26th 2018:

Birdbrain: "I have one head but 5 fingers."

Senile Rodent: "Obvious lie. You hairy legged cross dressers are so inbred
that you all have two heads."

Birdbrain: "You're the one that likes hairy legs remember?"

Senile Rodent: "The problem isnt the hairy legs, it's the gross inbreeding
that
produces two headed unemployables like you."

Birdbrain: "So why did you mention hairy legs?"

Senile Rodent: "Because that's what those who arent actually stupid enough
to shave their legs have."

Birdbrain: "You only have hairy legs if both of the following are true:
1) You're quite far back on the evolutionary scale.
2) You haven't learned what a razor is for."

Senile Rodent: "Only a terminal ****wit or a woman shaves their legs."

Birdbrain: "There is literally zero point in having hair all over your
body."

Senile Rodent: "There is even less point in wasting your time changing what
you are born with."

MID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:12:33 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the sociopath's and the psychopath's latest troll****

--
Typical retarded "conversation" between the Scottish ****** and the senile
Ozzietard:

Birdbrain: "Horse **** doesn't stink."

Senile Rodent: "It does if you roll in it."

Birdbrain: "I've never worked out why, I assumed it was maybe meateaters
that made stinky ****, but then why does vegetarian human **** stink? Is it
just the fact that we're capable of digesting meat?"

Senile Rodent: "Nope, some cow **** stinks too."

Message-ID:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 19:18:44 -0400, , the disgusting,
troll-feeding senile Yankietard, blathered again:


If ANY of you senile retarded suckers of troll cock believe that you could
eventually win this game, I can PROMISE you, you are mistaken! I will keep
beating the **** out of EVERY SINGLE one of you senile cocksuckers until you
mend your ways! Capisci?

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:09:06 -0400, , the disgusting,
troll-feeding senile Yankietard, blathered again:

Farther down

YOU can't get much farther down than you already are, you braindead
notorious sucker of troll cock!

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 16:54:32 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


OK, so suppose we have

And another senile tard comes running along who can't resist the Scottish
******'s stench! LOL

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 17:36:41 -0700 (PDT), tardo_4, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered again:


What you think "might be" is irrelevant.

This senile idiot just doesn't get it! LOL

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:11:51 -0400, , the disgusting,
troll-feeding senile Yankietard, blathered again:

That is "US" Seer.

Just HOW difficult is it for you to wean your senile mouth away from the
unwashed Scottish ******'s cock? Or do you yourself consider it to be
impossible? BG

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:02:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Yeah, that's why I included that link. Managed to forget to
point that out and then forgot to do it again when he asked
why I had included that. Worst ****up for quite a while now.

YOU are "****up" INCARNATE, you senile trolling asshole from Oz! Just watch
your abnormal posting hours when you start with your trolling EVERY night
between 1 and 4 am in Australia, you sociopathic senile pest!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:46:29 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane ****heads' latest troll****

--
Another typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots,
Birdbrain and Rodent Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rodent: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rodent: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rodent Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rodent Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

Message-ID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:51:55 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Worse actually, much more variable. But in my case its because
I don't even lie in bed trying to sleep, I get up, do what I usually
do and then go back to bed later and go to sleep immediately.

Bit tricky for the people I know tho, very hard to predict
when I will be up.

You start with your trolling EVERY NIGHT between 1 and 4 am because NOBODY
in real life is talking to you, and Usenet is the ONLY place where you can
talk to people that won't quickly run away from you, simply because they
can't do it as easily as people in real life can do it! There is NO chance
for you to HIDE your disgusting pathology, you sociopathic senile pest!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 22/10/2019 07:29, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 21/10/2019 20:20, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why can't I find a heat pump with a good SEER rating? The USA has a
law stating 13 minimum. Yet here in the UK, I looked at Panasonic and
they're all 7 to 11!

Its a longitude thing. High ratings are only achieved between about 70
and 120 degrees west.
A bit like music power really.

I'll bet that in the USA they may not be quoting the spec for heating,
just cooling

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:47:45 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


No they don't.

Did you just get one of your tiny senile online orgasms again, you abnormal
auto-contradicting senile asshole? LOL

--
Kerr Mudd-John about Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"It's like arguing with a demented frog."
MID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:53:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


cycles per second, mains frequency, Hz, They have 60 you and I have 50

The ONLY thing the two of you got is **** for brains!

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:22:06 -0400, micky, another brain dead, troll-feeding
senile idiot, blathered:


This is the more important question, and you are the OP, but you ignored
it.

The only important thing for that sociopathic attention whore is whether
someone will take his baits or not. And from what everyone can see here, he
was VERY successful in alt.home.repair and uk.d-i-y, AGAIN ...though the
senile idiots there KNOW already what it's all about and how all his threads
end! BG

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:27:03 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


True and there is also the voltage rating too.

YOU'd better worry how MANY people rate you an obnoxious troll, you abnormal
senile pest!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 11:57:19 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane trolls' latest troll****

--
Another retarded "conversation" between Birdbrain and senile Rodent:

Senile Rodent: " Did you ever dig a hole to bury your own ****?"

Birdbrain: "I do if there's no flush toilet around."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, I prefer camping like that, off by myself with
no dunnys around and have always buried the ****."

MID:

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 07:29:10 +0100, Andy Bennet, another mentally
challenged, troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


Its a longitude thing.

Nope, it's just a trolling thing and an attention-baiting thing from a KNOWN
pathological attention whore and troll!