I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

On 9/24/2019 2:49 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.


Best answered by your local inspector. Often old code is good, some
places would want it updated to present code.

The places that take out full page ads in Yellow Pages or slick TV ads
will try to do anything to bump the price. They also want to avoid any
potential liability later.

I can understand the reason for a disconnect, but not having one will
not burn your house down.

On 9/24/19 2:49 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.



Yah, your water heater is out and they think they got you by the balls. Maybe try a HVAC shop, they tend to be slow this time of year.

In article , says...

The places that take out full page ads in Yellow Pages or slick TV ads
will try to do anything to bump the price. They also want to avoid any
potential liability later.

I can understand the reason for a disconnect, but not having one will
not burn your house down.



I know the reason. Everything has gone way up on safety. It is there
so the person doing the work can see that no one turns on the power
while it is not safe to do so. There is no requirement for breakers or
fuses, just an off/on switch.

Speaking of bumping up the price, they wanted $ 1700 to replace a water
heater. I am not sure if that included the electrician or not. It
would take about 30 minutes or less to install a $ 20 switch.

I worked in a very large plant for 39 years. For a number of years
there was very little thought given to safety . In the last 10 years it
was way over board. Such as if we were working on something and our
feet were over 4 feet off the floor we had to have on a full safety
harness. That included step ladders. Some scaffules were the same way
unless they had rails around them in a certain way and what is caled
toe boards all the way around the bottom.

In the electrical department where I worked they had us wearing special
over coats and helments with full face shields. The coats were marked
40cal. That was an arc flash rating. When I retired it was all I could
do not to bring my 40 caliber gun in and shoot it full of holes. The
company did provide each of us our own coat.

In article ,
says...

Yah, your water heater is out and they think they got you by the balls. Maybe try a HVAC shop, they tend to be slow this time of year.




I am lucky. I am not sure about what is going on with my water heater.
A few days ago the water had gotten very hot, over 140 deg by a meat
thermometer in the hot water stream.

As far as I know there are 2 things that can cause that, Bad /stuck
thermostat or one of the elements has burst and as only one leg of the
240 volts is broken electricity flows from that broken element through
the water and heats it up. I did not do a very good check,but did check
the current with a clamp on amp meter ( I have all kinds of electrical
instruments at home) and there was not any flowing with the thermostat
in the set point off position. I just checked the top element to see if
it was stuck and it was not. Did not check the bottom element as it was
not drawing current at that time either.

For now the water seems to be normal again. It could be the bottom
thermostat is stuck and a high temperature shutoff activated for that
element. However as it is over 15 years old I am not going to worry
about a failuer cause and am going to replace it. Just me and the wife
here and both being retired can get by for a while.

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new
installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know
the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask.
If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician
cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost
way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work
can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on,
even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect,
then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a
buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when
they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too.

Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

In article ,
says...

I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new
installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know
the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask.
If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician
cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost
way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work
can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on,
even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect,
then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a
buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when
they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too.




I had thought about putting in a disconnect myself if needed. In NC you
do not usually need a permit or inspection to do your own small
electrical work.

The independent plummer I talked to said I did not need one if I had a 3
wire 240 volt wire. If only 2 wires and no ground , a new wire would
have tobe pulled.
That is the 2 hot wires and a bare or green ground wire. I checked and
I have that.

I don't think I need a permit or inspection just to replace what is
already here. I understand in some states you can't hardly change a
light bulb without a licened electrician or permit.

I really think the reason for many inspections is so they can make sure
to get on the tax records.

Ralph Mowery wrote:

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was
$ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him
on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900.

8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater?

Does that come with KY jelly?

I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the
replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60
gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the
stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the
lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement.

The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or
re-plumb the supply line.

I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off
valve.

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 8:19:27 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was
$ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him
on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900.

8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater?

That sounds possible for a DIY, with trips back to HD to pick
up the fittings you didn't know you needed, stopping at the gogo
bar for some beers, etc. For a plumber,
I agree, it's nuts, unless you're going from say a gas one that
used a chimney to a power vent one and electric has to be run,
exhaust has to be run outside, etc. Even then it shouldn't be
that many hours. Just doing an electric swap
should be maybe two hours on site, three tops. You could help
by draining the old one before they get there.



Does that come with KY jelly?

I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the
replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60
gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the
stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the
lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement.

Yes, same here. Like I said I was surprised how light it was. I slid
it down the stairs and I think I had someone help me some later day to
get the old one up the stairs.




The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or
re-plumb the supply line.

I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off
valve.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new
installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know
the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask.
If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician
cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost
way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work
can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on,
even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect,
then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a
buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when
they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too.

Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 9:05:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new
installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know
the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask.
If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician
cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost
way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work
can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on,
even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect,
then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a
buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when
they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too.

Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

So, to clarify for Ralph, most places the disconnect reqt would apply
to a water heater replacement too, not just new installs?

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:20:55 -0400, Home Guy wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote:

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was
$ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him
on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900.

8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater?

Does that come with KY jelly?

I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the
replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60
gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the
stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the
lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement.

The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or
re-plumb the supply line.

I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off
valve.
Here a good 40 gallon (50 gallon US) gas heater is just shy of $900.
An electric is about $600 with 9 year warranty.

If I have to replace my gas heater, as long as I buy the same model it
is less than a half hour to change it - not counting hauling the old
one out and the new one in. No soldering required.
And none of that hokey flex line crap.

Replacing an electric is about the same - and adding a "disconnect" if
required might add 20 minutes - not counting the 5 minute drive to
Home Despot or the localhardware store to pick it up.

It almost takes longer to get a water heater out of it's box than it
does to install it.

Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections
don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a
hurry - - - - - - .

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:05:11 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

SNIPP
Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect
device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the
way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater
the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a
"dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place
of a switch

In article , says...
I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was
$ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him
on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900.

8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater?

Does that come with KY jelly?



No, that $ 800 to $ 900 was for a waterheater parts to pipe it in and
labor. That was without him seeing the job. He said it may take an
hour or so to drain the old heater. If I had it drained it would be
less.

The big brand name company wanted 1700 to start with and when Ai balked
they cut it to 1300. Should have a 55 gallon drum of ky with that.

In article ,
says...

So, to clarify for Ralph, most places the disconnect reqt would apply
to a water heater replacement too, not just new installs?



Yes, that is the question. I know around here if you replace some
things like a stove that has a 3 prong plug you can put it back that
way,but all new ones or if you move the receptical it has to go back
with a 4 prong plug.

Many new instalations require some sort of disconnect or plug with in
sight of the device.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:12:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 9:05:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new
installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know
the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask.
If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician
cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost
way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work
can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on,
even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect,
then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a
buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when
they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too.

Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

So, to clarify for Ralph, most places the disconnect reqt would apply
to a water heater replacement too, not just new installs?

Yes, since you are already into the wiring, adding a disconnect at
this point is basically just buying the disconnect and maybe some
wire. They will also make you get rid of the Romex whip if that is
what was there. They will want FMC or MC and they might even be OK
with Smurf.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:21:46 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:05:11 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

SNIPP
Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect
device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the
way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater
the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a
"dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place
of a switch

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation
and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just
because of the generator thing.

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.

Cindy Hamilton

On 9/25/2019 6:09 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.
I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.
We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.

Cindy Hamilton

Sawzall FTW!

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 03:09:05 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.

Cindy Hamilton

One advantage to having my water heater outside although I doubt that
works up in the frozen north.

In article ,
says...

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.




Mu water heater problem is over. Got a call about 8:30 this morning and
the local plumbing company said two men were on the way. They had to
pick up a heater. I cut the power, unwired the heater and started
draining it. The heater is about a foot or two below ground level so
could not get all the water out as I used a hose pipe to send the water
out to the yard so they would not have a muddy mess to work in. They
hooked a small pump to it and finished the draining.

Wired the heater up without a disconnect. I was told yesterday by the
plumber that around here if it is an old instalation and has 2 hot wires
and no ground wire a new wire would have to be ran. As my heater had
two hot wires and a bare ground wire they could put it back as found.

Anyway I was charged for 2 hours labor (total $ 200) as they wree here
about an hour and a half, maybe less. To me it is worth $ 200 to have
the job done. That included hauling off the old heater. I have a truck
,so could have picked one up and hauled the old one off about 15 miles
away.


The total for everything was about $ 950 which seemed fair to me as the
Heater was almost $ 600, a 40 gallon Rheem. That is what the old one
was and don't know how old it ws as it was here when i bought the house
about 15 years ago. and they listed the parts used to put it in. Sure
beats that $ 1700 Benjamin Franklin wanted. I knew at that price I was
being ripped off.

In article ,
says...

Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections
don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a
hurry - - - - - - .



This replacement is going to take a little while. About 2 feet over the
heater is copper pipe. From there it goes to pvc or cpvc. Every thing
is glued in, no unions or cut off valves for the heater. I am sure the
heater will be a different brand.

Years ago at another house I replaced a gas heater. Not much to it.
Easy to get to and some valves. I used two pieces of some copper pipe
that is corragated ( whatever you call it) to make it flexable to do the
water connections. Much younger and broke then.

Now much older and I don't mind a reasonable 2 or 3 hundred for labor
just so I don't have to deal with the headach. It may go smooth ,or it
may require 2 or 3 trips for me to pick up parts from the store 10 miles
away. Hopefully the plumber will have the needed parts on his truck.

On Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 11:46:16 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.




Mu water heater problem is over. Got a call about 8:30 this morning and
the local plumbing company said two men were on the way. They had to
pick up a heater. I cut the power, unwired the heater and started
draining it. The heater is about a foot or two below ground level so
could not get all the water out as I used a hose pipe to send the water
out to the yard so they would not have a muddy mess to work in. They
hooked a small pump to it and finished the draining.

Wired the heater up without a disconnect. I was told yesterday by the
plumber that around here if it is an old instalation and has 2 hot wires
and no ground wire a new wire would have to be ran. As my heater had
two hot wires and a bare ground wire they could put it back as found.

Anyway I was charged for 2 hours labor (total $ 200) as they wree here
about an hour and a half, maybe less. To me it is worth $ 200 to have
the job done. That included hauling off the old heater. I have a truck
,so could have picked one up and hauled the old one off about 15 miles
away.


The total for everything was about $ 950 which seemed fair to me as the
Heater was almost $ 600, a 40 gallon Rheem. That is what the old one
was and don't know how old it ws as it was here when i bought the house
about 15 years ago. and they listed the parts used to put it in. Sure
beats that $ 1700 Benjamin Franklin wanted. I knew at that price I was
being ripped off.

Sounds like a good deal to me.

In article ,
says...

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.

Cindy Hamilton

One advantage to having my water heater outside although I doubt that
works up in the frozen north.




I figuer at my age it is well worth $ 200 not to have to deal with the
heater. I changed out a gas heater many years ago, but it was at the
end of the carport in what I call a utiility room with the washer and
dryer. The carport was enclosed so it stayed warmer in there, plus it
is in the middle of NC so no extreamly cold weather and not long at a
time. Those two guys did more in less than 2 hours than I could have
all day counting getting the heater, then carting it off and probably
several 10 mile trips to get needed parts.

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 03:09:05 -0700 (PDT), Cindy
Hamilton wrote:

On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one
already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an
electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a
licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a
replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the
water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said
instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower
price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I
would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in
for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100
an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone
he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate
plumming.

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel,
then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a
disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect
or panel. It's all
BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost
no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working
on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their
truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it
home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they
may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them
from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the
old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't
get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a
go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.

Cindy Hamilton

It's hard to remember but I thinnk I cut mine into 3 pieces while in the
basement. It was worth it because I wanted to see how it was made
inside, but it wouldn't be worth it again.

Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump,
but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to
cut not far above the water level.

On 9/24/19 11:24 PM, wrote:

[snip]

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation
and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just
because of the generator thing.

That's what I have here, and it wasn't changed when I got a new furnace
6 years ago.

BTW, one thing I did wonder about, was the (gas) furnace has a fan in
the exhaust.

--
91 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Puritan through Life's sweet garden goes To pluck the thorn and
cast away the rose." -- Kenneth Hare

Mark Lloyd writes:
On 9/24/19 11:24 PM, wrote:

[snip]

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation
and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just
because of the generator thing.

That's what I have here, and it wasn't changed when I got a new furnace
6 years ago.

BTW, one thing I did wonder about, was the (gas) furnace has a fan in
the exhaust.

Probably a draft inducer.

In article ,
says...

Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump,
but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to
cut not far above the water level.



The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a
hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had
a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20
% of the water.

I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought
about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But
after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit.

On 2019-09-25 11:29 a.m., Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump,
but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to
cut not far above the water level.



The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a
hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had
a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20
% of the water.

I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought
about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But
after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit.

put your face under it

On 9/25/2019 11:46 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Sure
beats that $ 1700 Benjamin Franklin wanted. I knew at that price I was
being ripped off.


Yeah, but they have a big ad in the Yellow Pages. They advertise on TV
and their workers look very professional on TV. You don't want to pay
the extra $800 for that?

In article , says...

Yeah, but they have a big ad in the Yellow Pages. They advertise on TV
and their workers look very professional on TV. You don't want to pay
the extra $800 for that?



I much perfer the ones that showed up in an ummarked pickup (clean
relative new) and had 'Don and Jon Surf Shop' on his T shirt. The other
one had a plain grey T shirt. They were clean looking and very nice.
They charged $ 800 less.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 00:24:49 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:21:46 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:05:11 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

SNIPP
Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect
device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the
way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater
the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a
"dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place
of a switch

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation
and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just
because of the generator thing.
They are "re-interpreting" it - allowing a "dedicated" twist lock plug
meet the definition of a "disconnect". Around here, anyway, I've never
heard of a standard NEMA 5 15P passing.An L5-15P has been known to be
passed.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 11:46:16 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections
don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a
hurry - - - - - - .



This replacement is going to take a little while. About 2 feet over the
heater is copper pipe. From there it goes to pvc or cpvc. Every thing
is glued in, no unions or cut off valves for the heater. I am sure the
heater will be a different brand.

Years ago at another house I replaced a gas heater. Not much to it.
Easy to get to and some valves. I used two pieces of some copper pipe
that is corragated ( whatever you call it) to make it flexable to do the
water connections. Much younger and broke then.

Now much older and I don't mind a reasonable 2 or 3 hundred for labor
just so I don't have to deal with the headach. It may go smooth ,or it
may require 2 or 3 trips for me to pick up parts from the store 10 miles
away. Hopefully the plumber will have the needed parts on his truck.
First time I changed mine I cut the copper and soldered in a shut-off
valve and a pair of unions. Put a union in the gas line too - about 10
inches from the pilot valve. Takles less than 10 minutes to remove it
now - not counting draining it - and the "pony" pump handles about 360
GPH - so it's less than 10 minutes to drain it. Swapping the pipe
fittings takes another 15 minutes if I have to look for my wrenches
and sealant. The rest of the job is just grunt work moving the old one
out and the new one in - - - -

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:28:17 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/24/19 11:24 PM, wrote:

[snip]

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation
and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just
because of the generator thing.

That's what I have here, and it wasn't changed when I got a new furnace
6 years ago.

BTW, one thing I did wonder about, was the (gas) furnace has a fan in
the exhaust.
Forced draft - on all mid-high efficiency furnaces. On a high
efficiency the flue gas is too cold to initiate a draft in the chimney
- and most now just use a plastic vent pipe to the outside - along
with a plastic fresh air intake for the sealed burner.

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:29:54 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump,
but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to
cut not far above the water level.



The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a
hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had
a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20

A pump. Never thought of that.

None of this applies ehre but years ago I bought a pump that runs off an
electric drill -- figured it might come in handy sometime -- and when my
sewer backed up I tried to use it to pump out the totally full laundry
sink through a fairly short hose and then to a longer hose 25 feet to
the sump. IIRC, ti didnt' work. Maybe I coudln't get it started.
Ended up waiting until the stream receded and let the sink drain via
it's own drain pipe.


% of the water.

I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought
about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But
after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit.

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:29:54 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump,
but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to
cut not far above the water level.



The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a
hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had
a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20
% of the water.

I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought
about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But
after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit.

I have the tray under the WH after a previous wh sprang a leak and
watered the whole floor. Then I had to run a 2" plastic pipe from the
tray to the sump with a 45^ and 90^ turn in it. It was pretty easy and
could have been a lot more complicated.


By the way, the pump in hte previous answer is half the size of a fist.

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 23:20:42 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 00:24:49 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:21:46 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:05:11 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

SNIPP
Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct
wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK.
IDK

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted
oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a
locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are
typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that
plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal.
The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has
an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely
the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a
disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about
electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater
replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the
panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether
one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since
the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect
device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the
way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater
the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a
"dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place
of a switch

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation
and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just
because of the generator thing.
They are "re-interpreting" it - allowing a "dedicated" twist lock plug
meet the definition of a "disconnect". Around here, anyway, I've never
heard of a standard NEMA 5 15P passing.An L5-15P has been known to be
passed.

That doesn't affect the code issues at all.

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 11:46:16 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections
don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a
hurry - - - - - - .



This replacement is going to take a little while. About 2 feet over the
heater is copper pipe. From there it goes to pvc or cpvc. Every thing
is glued in, no unions or cut off valves for the heater. I am sure the
heater will be a different brand.

When I replaced my WH the first time, I managed to find the same brand,
AOSmith, just by looking in the phone book.

But after that I couldn't and I went to a bunch of places to find one
that was the same, even under a different brand. Mostly all I did is
measure the distance between intake and output pipes. Ended up at
Sears, where the distance was the same.

This is all because I didn't want a funny looking zigzag pipe going up
from the WH and they didn't make or I didnt' want flexible pipe. But
I'm glad I wwent to the trouble because it looked nice. IIRC sears is
gone and I dont' know where I'll get the next WH.

But Sears had one with the very same dimensions, pipe locations and the
controls in front seem the same.

It was easy enough to put it on the rear seat and trunk of my
convertible, with some cotton clothes line holding it in place.

Easy enough to rock it down the stairs one step at a time.

Someone harder to connect the pipes, because I'm so compulsive, I only
left a quarter inch of empty space beween the stubs of the pipes
attached to the ceiling and stubs of the pipes that screw into the WH.

I finally incrased that to about an inch.

It turns out therare TWO KINDS OF JUNCTIONS FOR COPPER PIPE. One has
dimples inside so that the sleeve goes over the pipe only half the
length of the junction, an inch or so I didn't know there were two
kinds so that's what I bought and then I spend a lot of time trying to
file off the dimple so could slide it all the way down, and push it
under the pipe.

BUT THE OTHER KIND has no dimple. You put it on the stump that goes
into the WH, slide it all the way down, then move the WH to under the
matching pipe. Then lift the junction and somehow hold it in place --
maybe that was easy? -- at the right spot and solder it in place.


Years ago at another house I replaced a gas heater. Not much to it.
Easy to get to and some valves. I used two pieces of some copper pipe
that is corragated ( whatever you call it) to make it flexable to do the
water connections. Much younger and broke then.

Now much older and I don't mind a reasonable 2 or 3 hundred for labor
just so I don't have to deal with the headach. It may go smooth ,or it
may require 2 or 3 trips for me to pick up parts from the store 10 miles
away. Hopefully the plumber will have the needed parts on his truck.

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:46:37 -0400, micky
wrote:

IIRC sears is
gone and I dont' know where I'll get the next WH.

The first 3 numbers of the Sears part number indicates who really made
it. Sears didn't make much of anything.