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Electric code
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. |
Electric code
On 9/24/2019 2:49 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. Best answered by your local inspector. Often old code is good, some places would want it updated to present code. The places that take out full page ads in Yellow Pages or slick TV ads will try to do anything to bump the price. They also want to avoid any potential liability later. I can understand the reason for a disconnect, but not having one will not burn your house down. |
Electric code
On 9/24/19 2:49 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. Yah, your water heater is out and they think they got you by the balls. Maybe try a HVAC shop, they tend to be slow this time of year. |
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Electric code
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Electric code
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. |
Electric code
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask. If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on, even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect, then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too. Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK |
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Electric code
Ralph Mowery wrote:
I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. 8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater? Does that come with KY jelly? I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60 gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement. The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or re-plumb the supply line. I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off valve. |
Electric code
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 8:19:27 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote: I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. 8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater? That sounds possible for a DIY, with trips back to HD to pick up the fittings you didn't know you needed, stopping at the gogo bar for some beers, etc. For a plumber, I agree, it's nuts, unless you're going from say a gas one that used a chimney to a power vent one and electric has to be run, exhaust has to be run outside, etc. Even then it shouldn't be that many hours. Just doing an electric swap should be maybe two hours on site, three tops. You could help by draining the old one before they get there. Does that come with KY jelly? I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60 gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement. Yes, same here. Like I said I was surprised how light it was. I slid it down the stairs and I think I had someone help me some later day to get the old one up the stairs. The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or re-plumb the supply line. I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off valve. |
Electric code
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask. If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on, even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect, then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too. Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal. The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no. |
Electric code
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 9:05:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask. If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on, even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect, then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too. Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal. The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no. So, to clarify for Ralph, most places the disconnect reqt would apply to a water heater replacement too, not just new installs? |
Electric code
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:20:55 -0400, Home Guy wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote: I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. 8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater? Does that come with KY jelly? I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60 gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement. The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or re-plumb the supply line. I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off valve. Here a good 40 gallon (50 gallon US) gas heater is just shy of $900. An electric is about $600 with 9 year warranty. If I have to replace my gas heater, as long as I buy the same model it is less than a half hour to change it - not counting hauling the old one out and the new one in. No soldering required. And none of that hokey flex line crap. Replacing an electric is about the same - and adding a "disconnect" if required might add 20 minutes - not counting the 5 minute drive to Home Despot or the localhardware store to pick it up. It almost takes longer to get a water heater out of it's box than it does to install it. Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a hurry - - - - - - . |
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In article , says...
I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. 8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater? Does that come with KY jelly? No, that $ 800 to $ 900 was for a waterheater parts to pipe it in and labor. That was without him seeing the job. He said it may take an hour or so to drain the old heater. If I had it drained it would be less. The big brand name company wanted 1700 to start with and when Ai balked they cut it to 1300. Should have a 55 gallon drum of ky with that. |
Electric code
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Electric code
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:12:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 9:05:34 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask. If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on, even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect, then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too. Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal. The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no. So, to clarify for Ralph, most places the disconnect reqt would apply to a water heater replacement too, not just new installs? Yes, since you are already into the wiring, adding a disconnect at this point is basically just buying the disconnect and maybe some wire. They will also make you get rid of the Romex whip if that is what was there. They will want FMC or MC and they might even be OK with Smurf. |
Electric code
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along. Cindy Hamilton |
Electric code
On 9/25/2019 6:09 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along. Cindy Hamilton Sawzall FTW! |
Electric code
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 03:09:05 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along. Cindy Hamilton One advantage to having my water heater outside although I doubt that works up in the frozen north. |
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Electric code
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 03:09:05 -0700 (PDT), Cindy
Hamilton wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, September 24, 2019 at 2:50:07 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now. Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it. I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price. A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups. I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me. I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming. I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it. When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement. We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along. Cindy Hamilton It's hard to remember but I thinnk I cut mine into 3 pieces while in the basement. It was worth it because I wanted to see how it was made inside, but it wouldn't be worth it again. Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump, but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to cut not far above the water level. |
Electric code
On 9/24/19 11:24 PM, wrote:
[snip] I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just because of the generator thing. That's what I have here, and it wasn't changed when I got a new furnace 6 years ago. BTW, one thing I did wonder about, was the (gas) furnace has a fan in the exhaust. -- 91 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "The Puritan through Life's sweet garden goes To pluck the thorn and cast away the rose." -- Kenneth Hare |
Electric code
Mark Lloyd writes:
On 9/24/19 11:24 PM, wrote: [snip] I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just because of the generator thing. That's what I have here, and it wasn't changed when I got a new furnace 6 years ago. BTW, one thing I did wonder about, was the (gas) furnace has a fan in the exhaust. Probably a draft inducer. |
Electric code
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Electric code
On 2019-09-25 11:29 a.m., Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says... Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump, but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to cut not far above the water level. The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20 % of the water. I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit. put your face under it |
Electric code
On 9/25/2019 11:46 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Sure beats that $ 1700 Benjamin Franklin wanted. I knew at that price I was being ripped off. Yeah, but they have a big ad in the Yellow Pages. They advertise on TV and their workers look very professional on TV. You don't want to pay the extra $800 for that? |
Electric code
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Electric code
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 00:24:49 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:21:46 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:05:11 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: SNIPP Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal. The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no. Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a "dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place of a switch I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just because of the generator thing. They are "re-interpreting" it - allowing a "dedicated" twist lock plug meet the definition of a "disconnect". Around here, anyway, I've never heard of a standard NEMA 5 15P passing.An L5-15P has been known to be passed. |
Electric code
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 11:46:16 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a hurry - - - - - - . This replacement is going to take a little while. About 2 feet over the heater is copper pipe. From there it goes to pvc or cpvc. Every thing is glued in, no unions or cut off valves for the heater. I am sure the heater will be a different brand. Years ago at another house I replaced a gas heater. Not much to it. Easy to get to and some valves. I used two pieces of some copper pipe that is corragated ( whatever you call it) to make it flexable to do the water connections. Much younger and broke then. Now much older and I don't mind a reasonable 2 or 3 hundred for labor just so I don't have to deal with the headach. It may go smooth ,or it may require 2 or 3 trips for me to pick up parts from the store 10 miles away. Hopefully the plumber will have the needed parts on his truck. First time I changed mine I cut the copper and soldered in a shut-off valve and a pair of unions. Put a union in the gas line too - about 10 inches from the pilot valve. Takles less than 10 minutes to remove it now - not counting draining it - and the "pony" pump handles about 360 GPH - so it's less than 10 minutes to drain it. Swapping the pipe fittings takes another 15 minutes if I have to look for my wrenches and sealant. The rest of the job is just grunt work moving the old one out and the new one in - - - - |
Electric code
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:28:17 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote: On 9/24/19 11:24 PM, wrote: [snip] I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just because of the generator thing. That's what I have here, and it wasn't changed when I got a new furnace 6 years ago. BTW, one thing I did wonder about, was the (gas) furnace has a fan in the exhaust. Forced draft - on all mid-high efficiency furnaces. On a high efficiency the flue gas is too cold to initiate a draft in the chimney - and most now just use a plastic vent pipe to the outside - along with a plastic fresh air intake for the sealed burner. |
Electric code
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:29:54 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump, but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to cut not far above the water level. The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20 A pump. Never thought of that. None of this applies ehre but years ago I bought a pump that runs off an electric drill -- figured it might come in handy sometime -- and when my sewer backed up I tried to use it to pump out the totally full laundry sink through a fairly short hose and then to a longer hose 25 feet to the sump. IIRC, ti didnt' work. Maybe I coudln't get it started. Ended up waiting until the stream receded and let the sink drain via it's own drain pipe. % of the water. I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit. |
Electric code
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:29:54 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... Also, I have a tray under the WH and a pipe that goes to the sump/pump, but I guess I could have ladled the water out if I were smart enough to cut not far above the water level. The bottom of my heater was about a foot or so below grade. I hooked a hose to it and drained most of the water to the yard. The plumbers had a very small pump they hooked up and pumped out maybe the last 10 to 20 % of the water. I have a sump pump about the size if a galon of milk jug and thought about putting a pan under the tank drain and doing it that way. But after looking it over , the plastic pans I have would not fit. I have the tray under the WH after a previous wh sprang a leak and watered the whole floor. Then I had to run a 2" plastic pipe from the tray to the sump with a 45^ and 90^ turn in it. It was pretty easy and could have been a lot more complicated. By the way, the pump in hte previous answer is half the size of a fist. |
Electric code
On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 23:20:42 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote: On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 00:24:49 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:21:46 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:05:11 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 16:21:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: SNIPP Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal. The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no. Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a "dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place of a switch I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just because of the generator thing. They are "re-interpreting" it - allowing a "dedicated" twist lock plug meet the definition of a "disconnect". Around here, anyway, I've never heard of a standard NEMA 5 15P passing.An L5-15P has been known to be passed. That doesn't affect the code issues at all. |
Electric code
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Sep 2019 11:46:16 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote: In article , says... Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a hurry - - - - - - . This replacement is going to take a little while. About 2 feet over the heater is copper pipe. From there it goes to pvc or cpvc. Every thing is glued in, no unions or cut off valves for the heater. I am sure the heater will be a different brand. When I replaced my WH the first time, I managed to find the same brand, AOSmith, just by looking in the phone book. But after that I couldn't and I went to a bunch of places to find one that was the same, even under a different brand. Mostly all I did is measure the distance between intake and output pipes. Ended up at Sears, where the distance was the same. This is all because I didn't want a funny looking zigzag pipe going up from the WH and they didn't make or I didnt' want flexible pipe. But I'm glad I wwent to the trouble because it looked nice. IIRC sears is gone and I dont' know where I'll get the next WH. But Sears had one with the very same dimensions, pipe locations and the controls in front seem the same. It was easy enough to put it on the rear seat and trunk of my convertible, with some cotton clothes line holding it in place. Easy enough to rock it down the stairs one step at a time. Someone harder to connect the pipes, because I'm so compulsive, I only left a quarter inch of empty space beween the stubs of the pipes attached to the ceiling and stubs of the pipes that screw into the WH. I finally incrased that to about an inch. It turns out therare TWO KINDS OF JUNCTIONS FOR COPPER PIPE. One has dimples inside so that the sleeve goes over the pipe only half the length of the junction, an inch or so I didn't know there were two kinds so that's what I bought and then I spend a lot of time trying to file off the dimple so could slide it all the way down, and push it under the pipe. BUT THE OTHER KIND has no dimple. You put it on the stump that goes into the WH, slide it all the way down, then move the WH to under the matching pipe. Then lift the junction and somehow hold it in place -- maybe that was easy? -- at the right spot and solder it in place. Years ago at another house I replaced a gas heater. Not much to it. Easy to get to and some valves. I used two pieces of some copper pipe that is corragated ( whatever you call it) to make it flexable to do the water connections. Much younger and broke then. Now much older and I don't mind a reasonable 2 or 3 hundred for labor just so I don't have to deal with the headach. It may go smooth ,or it may require 2 or 3 trips for me to pick up parts from the store 10 miles away. Hopefully the plumber will have the needed parts on his truck. |
Electric code
On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:46:37 -0400, micky
wrote: IIRC sears is gone and I dont' know where I'll get the next WH. The first 3 numbers of the Sears part number indicates who really made it. Sears didn't make much of anything. |
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