On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:39:46 -0000, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:09:02 -0000, "Steven Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:59:17 -0000, trader_4 wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:33:19 AM UTC-5, Steven Watkins wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on the ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Why would anyone have a shower activated with a switch? I've lived in many places, traveled to many countries. Some showers have lights that are
on switches, but not the shower itself. The only place I saw such a shower
was on my boat and it's a 12V pump.

Don't tell me you still use the kind you shove on the bath tap? We have electric showers in the UK now.

You could probably find one of those on ebay but I haven't seen any for
30 years.

In the USA there are showers and in most bathtubs one has the choice
between a bath and a shower. There used to be two sets of handles but
now everyplace has one set, hot and cold, and a diverter valve to choose
between the bath tap and the shower. Everything else is in the wall.

What's an electric shower?

Something more advanced than just diverting some plumbing.

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:39:46 -0000, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:09:02 -0000, "Steven Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:59:17 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:33:19 AM UTC-5, Steven Watkins
wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Why would anyone have a shower activated with a switch? I've lived in
many places, traveled to many countries. Some showers have lights
that are
on switches, but not the shower itself. The only place I saw such a
shower
was on my boat and it's a 12V pump.

Don't tell me you still use the kind you shove on the bath tap? We have
electric showers in the UK now.

You could probably find one of those on ebay but I haven't seen any for
30 years.

In the USA there are showers and in most bathtubs one has the choice
between a bath and a shower. There used to be two sets of handles but
now everyplace has one set, hot and cold, and a diverter valve to choose
between the bath tap and the shower. Everything else is in the wall.

What's an electric shower?

Something more advanced than just diverting some plumbing.

More primitive, actually.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:05:14 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:39:46 -0000, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:09:02 -0000, "Steven Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:59:17 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:33:19 AM UTC-5, Steven Watkins
wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Why would anyone have a shower activated with a switch? I've lived in
many places, traveled to many countries. Some showers have lights
that are
on switches, but not the shower itself. The only place I saw such a
shower
was on my boat and it's a 12V pump.

Don't tell me you still use the kind you shove on the bath tap? We have
electric showers in the UK now.

You could probably find one of those on ebay but I haven't seen any for
30 years.

In the USA there are showers and in most bathtubs one has the choice
between a bath and a shower. There used to be two sets of handles but
now everyplace has one set, hot and cold, and a diverter valve to choose
between the bath tap and the shower. Everything else is in the wall.

What's an electric shower?

Something more advanced than just diverting some plumbing.

More primitive, actually.

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers for more pressure.

On 10/11/2018 22:13, NY wrote:
"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news

And you could have just used the fuse/circuit breaker in the consumer
unit for that.

About the only advantage of a fuse over a circuit breaker is that you
can physically remove a fuse and keep it with you while you are working
on the appliance, safe in the knowledge that almost certainly no power
can be restored. A circuit breaker can be restored to the on position by
someone who doesn't know that it is off for a reason.


That is why you are supposed to use a lock off kit.

--
Adam

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 03:59:31 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 22:23:55 -0000, "Steven Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 22:10:19 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:35:38 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 15:33, Steven Watkins wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the
ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Can't be for safety - if you're in the shower and get a shock, if
you've
managed to get out to reach the switch, you've got away from it
anyway.

Can't be to isolate to work on it, there's a fusebox for that.

Don't need to turn it off when you're finished showering, there's a
switch on the shower itself.

If I answer this, do you promise to **** off?

It's so somebody not in the shower can isolate it quickly before
helping
the poor bugger who is being electrocuted.

Sounds like a "widowmaker"shower in some backwater. Those things are
illegal for good reason in most "civilized" or "developed" countries,
as well as in the USA.

It's illegal to have an electric shower in the USA? I doubt it.

What is an electric shower?

It heats the water. Probably not practical there given the 115V
system you lot have. You need a pretty powerful heater to heat
it quickly enough so the hot water is hot enough. Easier to do
storage heaters instead.

In our home built about 1952, we had a light in the shower stall,
but it was in the ceiling. It didn't seem dangerous. The switch
was outside, unreachable if you were inside the shower.

Are those still legal in the US?

Yes as long as the bulb is high enough and doesn't get wet.

But what is an electric shower? Like an electric storm?

Nothing like and not really feasible on a 115V system.

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house. It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess, but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:05:14 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:39:46 -0000, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:09:02 -0000, "Steven
Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:59:17 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:33:19 AM UTC-5, Steven Watkins
wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Why would anyone have a shower activated with a switch? I've lived
in
many places, traveled to many countries. Some showers have lights
that are
on switches, but not the shower itself. The only place I saw such a
shower
was on my boat and it's a 12V pump.

Don't tell me you still use the kind you shove on the bath tap? We
have
electric showers in the UK now.

You could probably find one of those on ebay but I haven't seen any for
30 years.

In the USA there are showers and in most bathtubs one has the choice
between a bath and a shower. There used to be two sets of handles but
now everyplace has one set, hot and cold, and a diverter valve to
choose
between the bath tap and the shower. Everything else is in the wall.

What's an electric shower?

Something more advanced than just diverting some plumbing.

More primitive, actually.

No,

Yep.

we used to have those things in the UK.

You still do with anyone with even half a clue.

Then we got electric showers for more pressure.

Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually
manage with mains pressure storage hot water services.

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 03:59:31 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"micky" wrote in message
...
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 22:23:55 -0000, "Steven Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 22:10:19 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:35:38 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 15:33, Steven Watkins wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the
ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Can't be for safety - if you're in the shower and get a shock, if
you've
managed to get out to reach the switch, you've got away from it
anyway.

Can't be to isolate to work on it, there's a fusebox for that.

Don't need to turn it off when you're finished showering, there's a
switch on the shower itself.

If I answer this, do you promise to **** off?

It's so somebody not in the shower can isolate it quickly before
helping
the poor bugger who is being electrocuted.

Sounds like a "widowmaker"shower in some backwater. Those things are
illegal for good reason in most "civilized" or "developed" countries,
as well as in the USA.

It's illegal to have an electric shower in the USA? I doubt it.

What is an electric shower?

It heats the water. Probably not practical there given the 115V
system you lot have. You need a pretty powerful heater to heat
it quickly enough so the hot water is hot enough. Easier to do
storage heaters instead.

In our home built about 1952, we had a light in the shower stall,
but it was in the ceiling. It didn't seem dangerous. The switch
was outside, unreachable if you were inside the shower.

Are those still legal in the US?

Yes as long as the bulb is high enough and doesn't get wet.

But what is an electric shower? Like an electric storm?

Nothing like and not really feasible on a 115V system.

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house. It's a centre tapped 230V.
Bit of a ****ing mess, but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure (as opposed to a header tank in the loft).
Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a combi
boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate than an
electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but electrically
rather than by gas or oil.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply hot
bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly flow
rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If you
turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

"ARW" wrote in message
news
On 10/11/2018 22:13, NY wrote:
"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news

And you could have just used the fuse/circuit breaker in the consumer
unit for that.

About the only advantage of a fuse over a circuit breaker is that you can
physically remove a fuse and keep it with you while you are working on
the appliance, safe in the knowledge that almost certainly no power can
be restored. A circuit breaker can be restored to the on position by
someone who doesn't know that it is off for a reason.


That is why you are supposed to use a lock off kit.

What is that? A device that fits over the MCB switch to prevent it being
turned back on? I presume it allows just one circuit to be turned off,
rather than requiring the whole house to be turned off.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
But they have 115 and 230V in the same house. It's a centre tapped 230V.
Bit of a ****ing mess, but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not? What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V and and US 230V
made up of two 115V supplies? Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers,
tumble driers and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the 230V
supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral, with a centre tap
transformer in the house for the rest, or do they have three wires (115V
live, 230V live and neutral) with the centre-tapping done at the substation
rather than at each house?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:17:49 -0000, NY wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
But they have 115 and 230V in the same house. It's a centre tapped 230V.
Bit of a ****ing mess, but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not? What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V and and US 230V
made up of two 115V supplies? Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers,
tumble driers and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the 230V
supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral, with a centre tap
transformer in the house for the rest, or do they have three wires (115V
live, 230V live and neutral) with the centre-tapping done at the substation
rather than at each house?

I believe they have three wires entering the house, from usually one transformer per house on a pole? Unlike in the UK where a transformer powers a whole street or five.

They have common/neutral/whatever it's called, and two hots(lives). They wire the two hots to things like tumble dryers and cookers (ranges/stoves), and take a hot and a neutral to power smaller things like lights.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:29:27 -0000, ARW wrote:

On 10/11/2018 22:13, NY wrote:
"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news

And you could have just used the fuse/circuit breaker in the consumer
unit for that.

About the only advantage of a fuse over a circuit breaker is that you
can physically remove a fuse and keep it with you while you are working
on the appliance, safe in the knowledge that almost certainly no power
can be restored. A circuit breaker can be restored to the on position by
someone who doesn't know that it is off for a reason.

That is why you are supposed to use a lock off kit.

Or just hang a note on it saying "electrician at work, please leave off".

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:09:32 -0000, NY wrote:

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure (as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Neither do I, but mains pressure hot water is a new thing.

Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a combi
boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate than an
electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but electrically
rather than by gas or oil.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply hot
bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly flow
rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If you
turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

Just how hot do you have a shower? 8kW is plentiful to heat a showerful of water.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 06:43:36 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house. It's a centre tapped 230V.
Bit of a ****ing mess, but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Which is, of course, just another load of senile bull****! LOL

--
Typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots, Birdbrain and
Rot Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rot: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rot: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rot Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rot Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

Message-ID:

NY wrote
Steven Watkins wrote

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure

Me neither, abortion of a system, particularly now its so
cheap to insulate the tank so it doesn't lose much heat.

(as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Even then, that worked fine in the last flat I rented before I built
the house. And the flat was on the top floor with the tank in the
roof space just above the shower room/laundry. Worked fine.

Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a
combi boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate than
an electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but
electrically rather than by gas or oil.

Yep.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly
flow rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If
you turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 06:35:19 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:


Even sillier and more pig ignorant than you usually
manage with mains pressure storage hot water services.

An even sillier troll from you than you usually manage, senile Rot, and
that's saying something! LOL

--
Bill Wright to Rot Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****."
MID:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:34:08 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:

NY wrote
Steven Watkins wrote

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure

Me neither, abortion of a system, particularly now its so
cheap to insulate the tank so it doesn't lose much heat.

Because a lot of folk only switch on the tank when they know they're going to need it, which means planning your shower.

But with a combi boiler there's no reason for an electric shower.

(as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Even then, that worked fine in the last flat I rented before I built
the house. And the flat was on the top floor with the tank in the
roof space just above the shower room/laundry. Worked fine.

Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a
combi boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate than
an electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but
electrically rather than by gas or oil.

Yep.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly
flow rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If
you turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

On 11/11/2018 19:16, Steven Watkins wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:05:14 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:39:46 -0000, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:09:02 -0000, "Steven
Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:59:17 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:33:19 AM UTC-5, Steven Watkins
wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Why would anyone have a shower activated with a switch?* I've
lived in
many places, traveled to many countries.** Some showers have lights
that are
on switches, but not the shower itself.* The only place I saw such a
shower
was on my boat and it's a 12V pump.

Don't tell me you still use the kind you shove on the bath tap?* We
have
electric showers in the UK now.

You could probably find one of those on ebay but I haven't seen any for
30 years.

In the USA there are showers and in most bathtubs one has the choice
between a bath and a shower.* There used to be two sets of handles but
now everyplace has one set, hot and cold, and a diverter valve to
choose
between the bath tap and the shower.* Everything else is in the wall.

What's an electric shower?

Something more advanced than just diverting some plumbing.

More primitive, actually.

No, we used to have those things in the UK.* Then we got electric
showers for more pressure.

Absolute crap!
A combi boiler delivers pressure almost like a power shower.
We also have an electric shower as a standby (8.4 Kw) and it does not
compare anywhere near to the pressure of the combi fed one.

Combi boiler system

'Usually features a boiler with no tanks or water cylinders, designed to
heat water as and when you use it. Combi boilers generally *provide the
highest possible water pressure* and are compatible with a shower mixer
to provide hot water on demand'.

https://victoriaplum.com/blog/posts/shower-buying-guide
--
Bod

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house.
It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess,
but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into. What 230V appliances
they do have are mostly hard wired with stuff like
driers in the laundry etc.

What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V
and and US 230V made up of two 115V supplies?

The lack of 230V GPOs in the kitchen to plug them into.

Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers, tumble driers
and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the
230V supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Problem is the lack of 230V GPOs in places like the kitchen.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral,
with a centre tap transformer in the house for the rest,

Normally.

or do they have three wires (115V live, 230V live and neutral)

Not usually.

with the centre-tapping done at the
substation rather than at each house?

They don't use substations so much either.
Much more common to have transformers
on the power pole, usually called pole pigs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...se-closeup.jpg

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:40:42 -0000, Bod wrote:

On 11/11/2018 19:16, Steven Watkins wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 19:05:14 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 02:39:46 -0000, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 10 Nov 2018 16:09:02 -0000, "Steven
Watkins"
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 15:59:17 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 10:33:19 AM UTC-5, Steven Watkins
wrote:
Why do houses have a switch to turn the shower off, either a cord on
the ceiling or a switch in the hall?

Why would anyone have a shower activated with a switch? I've
lived in
many places, traveled to many countries. Some showers have lights
that are
on switches, but not the shower itself. The only place I saw such a
shower
was on my boat and it's a 12V pump.

Don't tell me you still use the kind you shove on the bath tap? We
have
electric showers in the UK now.

You could probably find one of those on ebay but I haven't seen any for
30 years.

In the USA there are showers and in most bathtubs one has the choice
between a bath and a shower. There used to be two sets of handles but
now everyplace has one set, hot and cold, and a diverter valve to
choose
between the bath tap and the shower. Everything else is in the wall.

What's an electric shower?

Something more advanced than just diverting some plumbing.

More primitive, actually.

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric
showers for more pressure.

Absolute crap!
A combi boiler delivers pressure almost like a power shower.
We also have an electric shower as a standby (8.4 Kw) and it does not
compare anywhere near to the pressure of the combi fed one.

Combi boiler system

'Usually features a boiler with no tanks or water cylinders, designed to
heat water as and when you use it. Combi boilers generally *provide the
highest possible water pressure* and are compatible with a shower mixer
to provide hot water on demand'.

https://victoriaplum.com/blog/posts/shower-buying-guide

I was talking about before combis were invented.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:43:01 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house.
It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess,
but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into. What 230V appliances
they do have are mostly hard wired with stuff like
driers in the laundry etc.

Which is bloody stupid, not having 240V sockets around.

What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V
and and US 230V made up of two 115V supplies?

The lack of 230V GPOs in the kitchen to plug them into.

Easy enough to wire one up yourself surely?

Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers, tumble driers
and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the
230V supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Problem is the lack of 230V GPOs in places like the kitchen.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral,
with a centre tap transformer in the house for the rest,

Normally.

or do they have three wires (115V live, 230V live and neutral)

Not usually.

with the centre-tapping done at the
substation rather than at each house?

They don't use substations so much either.
Much more common to have transformers
on the power pole, usually called pole pigs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...se-closeup.jpg

One for every house, what a waste of money and extremely untidy. I've got one huge transformer at the end of the street that powers 50 or 100 houses, through underground wires you cannot see.

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:09:32 -0000, NY wrote:

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric
showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure (as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Neither do I, but mains pressure hot water is a new thing.

Like hell it is.

Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a
combi
boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate than an
electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but
electrically
rather than by gas or oil.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot
bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly
flow
rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If you
turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

Just how hot do you have a shower? 8kW is plentiful to heat a showerful
of water.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:43:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into.

They DO use kettles like everyone else, idiot!

--
pamela about Rot Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID:

"Stephen Watkin" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:34:08 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

NY wrote
Steven Watkins wrote

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric
showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a
hot
water system at mains pressure

Me neither, abortion of a system, particularly now its so
cheap to insulate the tank so it doesn't lose much heat.

Because a lot of folk only switch on the tank when they know they're going
to need it, which means planning your shower.

I don't believe that a lot are actually that stupid.

But with a combi boiler there's no reason for an electric shower.

(as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Even then, that worked fine in the last flat I rented before I built
the house. And the flat was on the top floor with the tank in the
roof space just above the shower room/laundry. Worked fine.

Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a
combi boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate
than
an electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but
electrically rather than by gas or oil.

Yep.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a
piddly
flow rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If
you turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:09:32 -0000, NY, another braindead, troll-feeding
senile idiot, blathered again:


No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people

I've never understood how people can be so stupid not to realize it when
they get baited by an abnormal sociopathic troll, ****** and attention
whore, TIME and AGAIN! I blame your senility!

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure (as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Neither do I, but mains pressure hot water is a new thing.

I would never go back to house with water fed from a header tank. Pressured
cylinder or combi boiler are so much better: the hot and the cold are at the
same pressure and you don't need huge 22 mm pipes for the hot. And there's
no incessant noise of the water re-filling the tank in the loft.

My first house had a combined cylinder and header tank, to avoid a tank and
associated plumbing in the loft. That was a real beast: I once had to remove
it to change the immersion heater element and to empty out all the limescale
in the bottom. There was a lot of copper in that cylinder/tank. I had to try
to manhandle it round while it was still full of water (tank empty but
cylinder full to the brim) because the drain valve was on the *back*. Slight
design flaw there! It took a long time, using a hosepipe going downstairs to
the kitchen sink to empty it. And I got about a bucket full of limescale out
of the tank, filling it a few inches full from the hosepipe, swilling it
round and emptying it quickly (repeat ad nauseam). Unfortunately there was a
piece of immersion heater which was too big to get out: when the old element
blew up (it left scorch marks on the fuse box) it broke into pieces and the
splayed out so I couldn't get once of them through the hole that the element
screws into.

Pressure and flow rate from a header tank that was only about 4 feet higher
than the bath tap was poor. A shower was out of the question, though I could
have got an electric one, I suppose.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot
bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly
flow
rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If you
turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

Just how hot do you have a shower? 8kW is plentiful to heat a showerful
of water.

I found that the flow wasn't very great with the temperature at a bearable
level - ie nowhere near so hot that it scalds you.

The difference between summer and winter was very noticeable: you had to
turn the shower to a hotter setting to compensate for the water from the
rising main being much colder.

My parents have a holiday cottage in the Yorkshire Dales and the water is
always freezing even in summer. The first electric shower that they got was
(I think) 5 kW and the water from the shower head was like fine rain - or
else it was barely tepid. At least the replacement one is a bit more
powerful.

Is there any advantage of an electric shower over a combi or cylinder, as
long as it's fed by mains water and the combi boiler can heat it
sufficiently? Or is there some sort of unwritten law that even with a good
supply of hot water, a shower will still be electric heat-on-demand, rather
than gas/oil heat-on-demand or pre-heated?

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:34:08 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

NY wrote
Steven Watkins wrote

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure

Me neither, abortion of a system, particularly now its so
cheap to insulate the tank so it doesn't lose much heat.

(as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Even then, that worked fine in the last flat I rented before I built
the house.

Was that BEFORE or AFTER you helped design a computer OS, senile Rot? LOL

--
Senile Rot about himself:
"I was involved in the design of a computer OS"
MID:

"Bod" wrote in message
...
'Usually features a boiler with no tanks or water cylinders, designed to
heat water as and when you use it. Combi boilers generally *provide the
highest possible water pressure* and are compatible with a shower mixer to
provide hot water on demand'.

Why would a combi be a higher pressure than a mains-fed cylinder?

On 11/11/2018 20:11, NY wrote:
"ARW" wrote in message
news
On 10/11/2018 22:13, NY wrote:
"Steven Watkins" wrote in
message news
And you could have just used the fuse/circuit breaker in the
consumer unit for that.

About the only advantage of a fuse over a circuit breaker is that you
can physically remove a fuse and keep it with you while you are
working on the appliance, safe in the knowledge that almost certainly
no power can be restored. A circuit breaker can be restored to the on
position by someone who doesn't know that it is off for a reason.


That is why you are supposed to use a lock off kit.

What is that? A device that fits over the MCB switch to prevent it being
turned back on? I presume it allows just one circuit to be turned off,
rather than requiring the whole house to be turned off.

It is a device that locks off MCBs (and other stuff such as main
switches, RCDs some SFCU)

--
Adam

"Stephen Watkin" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:43:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house.
It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess,
but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into. What 230V appliances
they do have are mostly hard wired with stuff like
driers in the laundry etc.

Which is bloody stupid, not having 240V sockets around.

Not when all the plug in appliances are 115V

What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V
and and US 230V made up of two 115V supplies?

The lack of 230V GPOs in the kitchen to plug them into.

Easy enough to wire one up yourself surely?

Stupid to do that using the same plugs.

Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers, tumble driers
and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the
230V supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Problem is the lack of 230V GPOs in places like the kitchen.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral,
with a centre tap transformer in the house for the rest,

Normally.

or do they have three wires (115V live, 230V live and neutral)

Not usually.

with the centre-tapping done at the
substation rather than at each house?

They don't use substations so much either.
Much more common to have transformers
on the power pole, usually called pole pigs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...se-closeup.jpg

One for every house, what a waste of money and extremely untidy. I've got
one huge transformer at the end of the street that powers 50 or 100
houses, through underground wires you cannot see.

My street is overhead lines with 11KV on the top and 4 240v lines below
that. With a ****ing great transformer on a pair of poles round the corner.
https://goo.gl/maps/HBGpn9owTvs

The next subdivision over has underground power and transformers
bigger than a van but not as tall sitting on the ground.
https://goo.gl/maps/oU7Fc3TEL762

On 11/11/2018 3:57 PM, Stephen Watkin wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:43:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house.
It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess,
but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into. What 230V appliances
they do have are mostly hard wired with stuff like
driers in the laundry etc.

Which is bloody stupid, not having 240V sockets around.

What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V
and and US 230V made up of two 115V supplies?

The lack of 230V GPOs in the kitchen to plug them into.

Easy enough to wire one up yourself surely?

Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers, tumble driers
and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the
230V supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Problem is the lack of 230V GPOs in places like the kitchen.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral,
with a centre tap transformer in the house for the rest,

Normally.

or do they have three wires (115V live, 230V live and neutral)

Not usually.

with the centre-tapping done at the
substation rather than at each house?

They don't use substations so much either.
Much more common to have transformers
on the power pole, usually called pole pigs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...se-closeup.jpg

One for every house, what a waste of money and extremely untidy.* I've
got one huge transformer at the end of the street that powers 50 or 100
houses, through underground wires you cannot see.

No, one for many houses. Often one for a street.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 08:19:41 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

FLUSH yet more of the two idiots' stinking troll ****

--
Another retarded "conversation" between Birdbrain and senile Rot:

Senile Rot: " Did you ever dig a hole to bury your own ****?"

Birdbrain: "I do if there's no flush toilet around."

Senile Rot: "Yeah, I prefer camping like that, off by myself with
no dunnys around and have always buried the ****."

MID:

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 07:57:50 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:


Neither do I, but mains pressure hot water is a new thing.

Like hell it is.

It IS a new thing where he lives, senile Rot!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:02:34 -0000, NY, another braindead, troll-feeding
senile idiot, blathered again:

I found

I just found that you ARE just another endlessly driveling troll-feeding
senile idiot! BG

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:19:41 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"Stephen Watkin" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:43:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house.
It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess,
but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into. What 230V appliances
they do have are mostly hard wired with stuff like
driers in the laundry etc.

Which is bloody stupid, not having 240V sockets around.

Not when all the plug in appliances are 115V

I can move my 3kW kettle, fanheater, etc, etc around freely to any socket anywhere in the kitchen or elsewhere in the house. They can't.

What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V
and and US 230V made up of two 115V supplies?

The lack of 230V GPOs in the kitchen to plug them into.

Easy enough to wire one up yourself surely?

Stupid to do that using the same plugs.

They've got about 20 varieties to choose from. No ****ing standards like we do.

Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers, tumble driers
and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the
230V supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Problem is the lack of 230V GPOs in places like the kitchen.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral,
with a centre tap transformer in the house for the rest,

Normally.

or do they have three wires (115V live, 230V live and neutral)

Not usually.

with the centre-tapping done at the
substation rather than at each house?

They don't use substations so much either.
Much more common to have transformers
on the power pole, usually called pole pigs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...se-closeup.jpg

One for every house, what a waste of money and extremely untidy. I've got
one huge transformer at the end of the street that powers 50 or 100
houses, through underground wires you cannot see.

My street

So which one is your house? :-)

is overhead lines with 11KV on the top and 4 240v lines below

Ouch! Storm, top lines fall onto bottom lines, big explosion in everyone's house.

that. With a ****ing great transformer on a pair of poles round the corner.
https://goo.gl/maps/HBGpn9owTvs

I had one of those where I used to live, but the HV was underground, and so was the 240V, except to older houses which were there before they installed it. Those had an overhead cable to them. My neighbour's roof caught fire when his became detached from the eaves and shorted in his attic, setting fire to the wood frame. He now has an underground cable.

The next subdivision over has underground power and transformers
bigger than a van but not as tall sitting on the ground.
https://goo.gl/maps/oU7Fc3TEL762

Ours tend to be a little more open than that but fenced in.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:52:21 -0000, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/11/2018 3:57 PM, Stephen Watkin wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:43:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But they have 115 and 230V in the same house.
It's a centre tapped 230V. Bit of a ****ing mess,
but thy can get a decent voltage when needed.

Not practical to do electric showers that way.

That's also the reason they don't use electric jugs
either, not practical to run them on 230V.

Why not?

They don't in fact have 230V GPOs in the kitchen
you can plug the kettle into. What 230V appliances
they do have are mostly hard wired with stuff like
driers in the laundry etc.

Which is bloody stupid, not having 240V sockets around.

What's the difference between Europe's 220-240V
and and US 230V made up of two 115V supplies?

The lack of 230V GPOs in the kitchen to plug them into.

Easy enough to wire one up yourself surely?

Power-hungry devices like kettles, cookers, tumble driers
and showers can be plugged into (or hard-wired into) the
230V supply and a centre tap supplies the rest of the house.

Problem is the lack of 230V GPOs in places like the kitchen.

Do US house have two wires for 230V live and neutral,
with a centre tap transformer in the house for the rest,

Normally.

or do they have three wires (115V live, 230V live and neutral)

Not usually.

with the centre-tapping done at the
substation rather than at each house?

They don't use substations so much either.
Much more common to have transformers
on the power pole, usually called pole pigs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P...se-closeup.jpg

One for every house, what a waste of money and extremely untidy. I've
got one huge transformer at the end of the street that powers 50 or 100
houses, through underground wires you cannot see.

No, one for many houses. Often one for a street.

No pole pigs anymore?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:05:09 -0000, NY wrote:

"Bod" wrote in message
...
'Usually features a boiler with no tanks or water cylinders, designed to
heat water as and when you use it. Combi boilers generally *provide the
highest possible water pressure* and are compatible with a shower mixer to
provide hot water on demand'.

Why would a combi be a higher pressure than a mains-fed cylinder?

Indeed, I'd think it would be identical. My parents have a mains fed hot water cylinder, heated by an oil boiler (no mains gas there). The shower runs off that and has very good pressure - same pressure on hot as on cold.

On 11/10/18 8:39 PM, micky wrote:

[snip]

What's an electric shower?

Something like an electric chair :-)

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 21:02:34 -0000, NY wrote:

"Steven Watkins" wrote in message
news
I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a hot
water system at mains pressure (as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Neither do I, but mains pressure hot water is a new thing.

I would never go back to house with water fed from a header tank. Pressured
cylinder or combi boiler are so much better: the hot and the cold are at the
same pressure

I've never had the need for high pressure hot water. Why do you?

and you don't need huge 22 mm pipes for the hot.

Mine are all 15mm.

And there's
no incessant noise of the water re-filling the tank in the loft.

It's in the loft, I can't hear it unless I'm in the loft.

My first house had a combined cylinder and header tank, to avoid a tank and
associated plumbing in the loft. That was a real beast: I once had to remove
it to change the immersion heater element and to empty out all the limescale
in the bottom.

Luckily here in Scotland we don't get limescale.

There was a lot of copper in that cylinder/tank. I had to try
to manhandle it round while it was still full of water (tank empty but
cylinder full to the brim) because the drain valve was on the *back*.

Doh!

Slight design flaw there! It took a long time, using a hosepipe going downstairs to
the kitchen sink to empty it. And I got about a bucket full of limescale out
of the tank, filling it a few inches full from the hosepipe, swilling it
round and emptying it quickly (repeat ad nauseam). Unfortunately there was a
piece of immersion heater which was too big to get out: when the old element
blew up (it left scorch marks on the fuse box) it broke into pieces and the
splayed out so I couldn't get once of them through the hole that the element
screws into.

Pressure and flow rate from a header tank that was only about 4 feet higher
than the bath tap was poor. A shower was out of the question, though I could
have got an electric one, I suppose.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot
bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a piddly
flow
rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If you
turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(

Just how hot do you have a shower? 8kW is plentiful to heat a showerful
of water.

I found that the flow wasn't very great with the temperature at a bearable
level - ie nowhere near so hot that it scalds you.

Well I guess it depends on what you call warm, and what the incoming temperature is, but my 8kW shower provides water at what I'd say was pretty warm (40C?) fast enough that it splashes off me, and if the curtain wasn't pulled across, would bounce onto the floor.

The difference between summer and winter was very noticeable: you had to
turn the shower to a hotter setting to compensate for the water from the
rising main being much colder.

My parents have a holiday cottage in the Yorkshire Dales and the water is
always freezing even in summer. The first electric shower that they got was
(I think) 5 kW and the water from the shower head was like fine rain - or
else it was barely tepid. At least the replacement one is a bit more
powerful.

Is there any advantage of an electric shower over a combi or cylinder, as
long as it's fed by mains water and the combi boiler can heat it
sufficiently? Or is there some sort of unwritten law that even with a good
supply of hot water, a shower will still be electric heat-on-demand, rather
than gas/oil heat-on-demand or pre-heated?

I bet there's some stupid regulation about maintaining the correct temperature if someone flushes the toilet.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:59:18 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"Stephen Watkin" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 11 Nov 2018 20:34:08 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

NY wrote
Steven Watkins wrote

No, we used to have those things in the UK. Then we got electric
showers
for more pressure.

I've never understood why people have electric showers if they have a
hot
water system at mains pressure

Me neither, abortion of a system, particularly now its so
cheap to insulate the tank so it doesn't lose much heat.

Because a lot of folk only switch on the tank when they know they're going
to need it, which means planning your shower.

I don't believe that a lot are actually that stupid.

Most are like that in fact. Probably because the tank doesn't stay hot and wastes fuel.

But with a combi boiler there's no reason for an electric shower.

(as opposed to a header tank in the loft).

Even then, that worked fine in the last flat I rented before I built
the house. And the flat was on the top floor with the tank in the
roof space just above the shower room/laundry. Worked fine.

Surely hot water at mains pressure heated in a tank or on demand in a
combi boiler is just the same pressure and possibly better flow rate
than
an electric shower which heats the same cold water as a combi but
electrically rather than by gas or oil.

Yep.

Our old house had a fantastic oil-fired combi boiler which could supply
hot bath water for ages, and yet the shower was electric and had a
piddly
flow rate because the wiring to it was only rated for an 8 kW shower. If
you turned the temp up a bit, you could see the flow rate reduce :-(