On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:58:11 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My youngest intimidated most of her boyfriends untill she met her now
hiusband - a heavy truck mechanic. None of the others coulkd drive her
car (standard) and she could change a flat - they had to call road
service - - -

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:37:26 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 12/4/2017 11:57 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:14:28 +0000 (UTC), harry
newton wrote:


Three things I'll never own and never have:
a. FWD

I don't want FWD either, but the only convertibles I like come with it.

The main advantage to FWD is they can build a car cheaper. As for the
handling difference, 99% of drivers will never feel the difference,
especially on the 15 mph trip to the grocery store.


Actually, the MAIN advantage is lower weight and more
passenger/luggager space. I don't believe there is a huge difference
in cost - a smal difference, yes. BIG difference in weight. BIG
difference in space utilization - which makes for even MORE weight
savings.


b. Timing belt

That's one of the disappointments of the new car. The 2000 Toyota
Solara had a 3.0L non-interference engine, but for some silly reason
they switched to a 3.3L *interference* engine in 2005. Believe you me,
I'd rather have 0.3L less. The only good part is that using
mycarfax.com I found that the previous owner replaced the belt and the
water pump only 40,000 miles ago. So I should be good for another
40,000 miles.


Never had one. If is a $400 to $600 planned maintenance that I'd rather
not have but I guess you have no choice at times.


c. Automatic

I like automatic.

I've driven a stick for 4 or 5 days at a time, and that was fine, but
I'd be worn out if it was always.


Same here. Stick is fun at times on the back roads twisting and
turning. Years ago, stick had many benefits but the new autos are more
efficient, fast shifting, and don't lose a lot of HP getting to the
wheels. Even high performance cars now have auto. We've come a long
way from the Chevy Powerglide 2 speed auto.

I drive the 5 speed ranger - my wife has the automatic Taurus. I
seldom use the clutch except for starting and in heavy stop and go
traffic - which I avoid whenever possible, even when driving the
Taurus.

While it can be fun on the back road a few times a year. I don't see the
need to hold the clutch in at red lights or stop and go traffic. My car
even has "Auto Hold: for the brakes so I don't have to hold the pedal
down when stopped.

He who is Scott Dorsey said on 5 Dec 2017 14:14:38 -0500:

Whereas you can get generic 6x9s from Parts Express for around $5 each,
for a total of $20 the set, and they probably won't be any worse than the
originals.

Price is never an indication of quality - it's just an indication of what
other people are willing to pay - which - marketing knows - is highly
influenced by marketing garbage.

So, a 6x9" 20W $5 Parts Express speaker might or might not be as good as a
6x9" 20W $300 speaker at Toyota which itself might or might not be as good
as a 6x9" 20W $25 speaker at Crutchfields.

How are we to know?
Sure, in the days of yore, we pored over those 3db power:frequency curves,
from 7KHz to 20KHz on each speaker box, and where, folks like Jeff
Liebermann would know, they always find a way to lie a little bit.

While I doubt the $300 per speaker at Toyota is a fair price, how can I
tell, a priori, if the $5 speaker at Parts Express will be as good (or bad)
as the $25 speaker at Crutchfields?

Is there any way for a consumer to make an intelligent speaker decision?

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 02:13:06 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Scott Dorsey said on 5 Dec 2017 14:14:38 -0500:

Whereas you can get generic 6x9s from Parts Express for around $5 each,
for a total of $20 the set, and they probably won't be any worse than the
originals.

Price is never an indication of quality - it's just an indication of what
other people are willing to pay - which - marketing knows - is highly
influenced by marketing garbage.

So, a 6x9" 20W $5 Parts Express speaker might or might not be as good as a
6x9" 20W $300 speaker at Toyota which itself might or might not be as good
as a 6x9" 20W $25 speaker at Crutchfields.

How are we to know?
Sure, in the days of yore, we pored over those 3db power:frequency curves,
from 7KHz to 20KHz on each speaker box, and where, folks like Jeff
Liebermann would know, they always find a way to lie a little bit.

While I doubt the $300 per speaker at Toyota is a fair price, how can I
tell, a priori, if the $5 speaker at Parts Express will be as good (or bad)
as the $25 speaker at Crutchfields?



Is there any way for a consumer to make an intelligent speaker decision?
A good indicator of quality is magnet mass. If it has a tiny little
piddler of a magnet it will not handle any power - particularly bass.
Then lookat the cone material, and the surround. The spider is also
important- The basket is less critical - but in a large powerfull
speaker the basket will be MUCH solider than on a cheap-ass speaker.
If youfind a speaker with a cast aluminum basket you know you are
looking at a higher quality speaker - and if it is stamped steel, the
heavier the better.

Poor suspension spiders and surrounds will let the voice-coil scuff
on the magnet core - which makes a speaker rattle. A flexible basket
can do the same. The surround compliance is different on a speaker
designed for an accoustic suspension box than for a bass reflex, or an
open baffle like in the average auto rear deck. Toyota actually used
accoustic suspension on some of the "premium" sound systems years ago.

LOTS of things you can look at.

I have a pair of OEM Toyota speakers from the eighties sitting here,
as well as a pair of speakers from a Zenith TV of about the same
period - virtually the same size - and the Toyota speaker is
significantly heavier. Thicker cone, thicker basket metal, and more
rigid design - as well as a MUCH larger and stronger magnet, The
Zenith also uses an "m"formed paper surround, while the Toyota uses a
rubber surround. I've got a "tin ear" but even I can tell the
difference between the two.

The drivers in my AudioResearch towers are MUCH heavier than my
no-name set too - and I replaced the foam surrounds that had totally
"disolved" from age with new high-quality synthetic rubber surrounds -
on both the active and passive 14 inch cones.

In automotive speakers the basket rigidity is more important because
of the "G" forces experienced when driving on rough roads. The cheap
speaker might sound good when installed - but it may be pretty auful
two years later.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 5 Dec 2017 03:48:53 +0000 (UTC), harry
newton wrote:

He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

Wait a second. The kid next door you're doing all this for is a girl.

Do we have another Roy Moore here?

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 05 Dec 2017 20:43:37 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:58:11 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My youngest intimidated most of her boyfriends untill she met her now
hiusband - a heavy truck mechanic. None of the others coulkd drive her
car (standard) and she could change a flat - they had to call road
service - - -

That's pitiful.

Two stories. Before cellphones: A girl I met at a lecture -- not
attractive and I wasn't interested in her -- calls me on a Friday or
Saturday to change her tire. I say, Can it wait until Sunday. Yes.
I'm there, doing it and she's not watching. I say, Why don't you watch
so you can do it yourself next time. "I'll call someone" "What if you're
out in the country?" "I never go there". I finished the job and left
and I hope she thought that was why I never called her. If she'd been
cute, I still can't imagine spending my life with someone like that.

(Plus she didn't seem very appreciative to let me work while she
wasn't keeping me company, at least)


Shopping for a car a couple months ago, guy had a beaufitul red Mustang,
special black trim, special power chip for ignition, car 12 years old
but interior (leather), exterior, engine compartment like new. etc.
Stick shift. One of his teenage sons was sort of trying to learn to
drive it and the other wsn't even learning to drive! The normal thing
to do woudl be to give the car to his son, but neither could handle it.

harry newton wrote:
He who is Scott Dorsey said on 5 Dec 2017 14:14:38 -0500:

Whereas you can get generic 6x9s from Parts Express for around $5 each,
for a total of $20 the set, and they probably won't be any worse than the
originals.

Price is never an indication of quality - it's just an indication of what
other people are willing to pay - which - marketing knows - is highly
influenced by marketing garbage.

So, a 6x9" 20W $5 Parts Express speaker might or might not be as good as a
6x9" 20W $300 speaker at Toyota which itself might or might not be as good
as a 6x9" 20W $25 speaker at Crutchfields.

They're all dreadful. It doesn't matter which one you buy, it will be
dreadful. So buy the cheapest one or the most convenient one and don't
worry about it.

While I doubt the $300 per speaker at Toyota is a fair price, how can I
tell, a priori, if the $5 speaker at Parts Express will be as good (or bad)
as the $25 speaker at Crutchfields?

Is there any way for a consumer to make an intelligent speaker decision?

No, because it's basically not possible to get decent sound in a car anyway.
And even if it were, it wouldn't be possible to do it with the typical
full-range whizzer-cone speakers that we're talking about. So buy the cheapest
ones you can get and it won't sound any worse than it did when the car was
new.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 12/6/2017 12:00 AM, micky wrote:


Shopping for a car a couple months ago, guy had a beautiful red Mustang,
special black trim, special power chip for ignition, car 12 years old
but interior (leather), exterior, engine compartment like new. etc.
Stick shift. One of his teenage sons was sort of trying to learn to
drive it and the other wasn't even learning to drive! The normal thing
to do would be to give the car to his son, but neither could handle it.


Times have changed. When we were in our early teens we were driving
with dad in the parking lot and could not wait until we were 16. My
brother turned 16 on a Thursday and passed his test on Saturday. I was
about 2 weeks after my birthday taking mine.

Now, having the latest cell phone is more important than cars and
driving. Stick shift? Nah, they can't do it.

On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:37:31 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/4/2017 11:57 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:14:28 +0000 (UTC), harry
newton wrote:


Three things I'll never own and never have:
a. FWD

I don't want FWD either, but the only convertibles I like come with it.

The main advantage to FWD is they can build a car cheaper. As for the
handling difference, 99% of drivers will never feel the difference,
especially on the 15 mph trip to the grocery store.

There's a big difference in traction in the snow or similar conditions,
that's for sure. All the weight of the engine helps. Not having the
driveshaft hump is a plus for inside space too. But then SUVs are selling
like hot cakes and they have all wheel drive, which I guess combines
some of the best of both designs. And those continue to evolve, from
fixed proportioning of power between front and rear, to computer controlled.
Another interesting thing, some pickups are hitting the $100K mark now.

On 12/6/2017 9:49 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, December 5, 2017 at 9:37:31 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/4/2017 11:57 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:14:28 +0000 (UTC), harry
newton wrote:


Three things I'll never own and never have:
a. FWD

I don't want FWD either, but the only convertibles I like come with it.

The main advantage to FWD is they can build a car cheaper. As for the
handling difference, 99% of drivers will never feel the difference,
especially on the 15 mph trip to the grocery store.

There's a big difference in traction in the snow or similar conditions,
that's for sure. All the weight of the engine helps. Not having the
driveshaft hump is a plus for inside space too. But then SUVs are selling
like hot cakes and they have all wheel drive, which I guess combines
some of the best of both designs. And those continue to evolve, from
fixed proportioning of power between front and rear, to computer controlled.
Another interesting thing, some pickups are hitting the $100K mark now.


I bought an AWD a couple of years ago. I had a couple of hills on the
way to work and passed cars sliding all over. When you put it into snow
mode you get 50-50. The traction control though will vary it as needed
from 90-10 to 10-90. In Eco or regular mode it is 40-60.

I've since retired and have no plans to drive on a snowy day again.
Nothing that can't wait for the roads to be cleared.

On 12/5/2017 6:58 AM, wrote:

c. Automatic

I like automatic.

I've driven a stick for 4 or 5 days at a time, and that was fine, but
I'd be worn out if it was always.


Same here. Stick is fun at times on the back roads twisting and
turning. Years ago, stick had many benefits but the new autos are more
efficient, fast shifting, and don't lose a lot of HP getting to the
wheels. Even high performance cars now have auto. We've come a long
way from the Chevy Powerglide 2 speed auto.
While it can be fun on the back road a few times a year. I don't see the
need to hold the clutch in at red lights or stop and go traffic. My car
even has "Auto Hold: for the brakes so I don't have to hold the pedal
down when stopped.


For a fly & drive vacation in Ireland, earlier this year, I had to
make special arrangements for a rental car with automatic
transmission.
Manual transmission is standard - in more ways than one :-)
... the extra cost for the automatic amounted to almost 1/3
of the total ! Insurance waiver was 1/3 ; rental 1/3.
Stupid little Skoda was "programmed" to shift like a manual
though - causing annooying jerks and delays.
I was glad to have it though - crazy narrow winding roads
provide enough excitement - combined with right-hand-driving
on the wrong side of the road ..
John T.

We went to Ireland two years ago. Quite the scam for rental cars. I
opted for a manual. I didn't reserve a diesel, which cost more, but
that's what Avis gave me which was fine, some sort of Kia SUV. Only a
very limited number of credit cards cover Ireland in terms of insurance,
most exclude a few countries, including Ireland. You have to bring a
letter from the credit card company stating that they provide coverage,
and I expected it to be hard to explain to the credit card company what
I needed, but they instantly understood and seconds later they e-mailed
me the necessary documentation. You still have to pay a small fee to
waive the insurance.

I thought it would be a pain to have to shift with my left hand while
driving on the left, on narrow roads, but it was fine. In fact, I think
that it made me more involved in driving and helped me pay attention.

For a fly & drive vacation in Ireland, earlier this year, I had to
make special arrangements for a rental car with automatic
transmission.
Manual transmission is standard - in more ways than one :-)
... the extra cost for the automatic amounted to almost 1/3
of the total ! Insurance waiver was 1/3 ; rental 1/3.
Stupid little Skoda was "programmed" to shift like a manual
though - causing annooying jerks and delays.
I was glad to have it though - crazy narrow winding roads
provide enough excitement - combined with right-hand-driving
on the wrong side of the road ..
John T.


We went to Ireland two years ago. Quite the scam for rental cars. I
opted for a manual. I didn't reserve a diesel, which cost more, but
that's what Avis gave me which was fine, some sort of Kia SUV. Only a
very limited number of credit cards cover Ireland in terms of insurance,
most exclude a few countries, including Ireland. You have to bring a
letter from the credit card company stating that they provide coverage,
and I expected it to be hard to explain to the credit card company what
I needed, but they instantly understood and seconds later they e-mailed
me the necessary documentation. You still have to pay a small fee to
waive the insurance.
I thought it would be a pain to have to shift with my left hand while
driving on the left, on narrow roads, but it was fine. In fact, I think
that it made me more involved in driving and helped me pay attention.



My credit card limit wasn't high enough !
The rental company wanted about 10 thousand dollars
" reserved " on the card before they waived the huge
deductible - or as they call it excess. It creeped me out,
so I just paid through the nose for their insurance.
My own car insurance covers rentals for North America only.
John T.

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:12:49 -0500:

I bought an AWD a couple of years ago. I had a couple of hills on the
way to work and passed cars sliding all over. When you put it into snow
mode you get 50-50. The traction control though will vary it as needed
from 90-10 to 10-90. In Eco or regular mode it is 40-60.

I've since retired and have no plans to drive on a snowy day again.
Nothing that can't wait for the roads to be cleared.

If you live in snow country, then these traction schemes make sense.
If you don't live in snow country, chains are a lot cheaper in every way.
And better.

They're just not as convenient.

He who is trader_4 said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 06:49:29 -0800 (PST):

There's a big difference in traction in the snow or similar conditions,
that's for sure.

People say that but it's like people who say that Hillary won the election.

Without the actual facts, it's a meaningless thing you just said.

If you say "deep snow" and "driving slowly in deep snow", then yes, there's
a big difference in traction.

But just "snow". Nope. There's no difference in traction if both cars are
in just a sprinkling of snow, or if they're driving even close to the speed
limit on any road in deep snow.

What's deep?
I don't know.

It's certainly more than an inch.
It's not deeper than 15 inches.

It's somewhere around 5 inches maybe?

So yes. FWD handles better than RWD when driving slowly in 5 inches of
snow.

That's the ONLY time FWD handles better though.
Seems like a huge tradeoff for the ability to handle five inches of snow.

All the weight of the engine helps. Not having the
driveshaft hump is a plus for inside space too. But then SUVs are selling
like hot cakes and they have all wheel drive, which I guess combines
some of the best of both designs. And those continue to evolve, from
fixed proportioning of power between front and rear, to computer controlled.
Another interesting thing, some pickups are hitting the $100K mark now.

How deep do you think the snow needs to be for FWD to make a difference
over RWD?

One inch isn't going to cut it.
It has to be deep to matter.

How deep?

On 12/6/2017 1:41 PM, wrote:

For a fly & drive vacation in Ireland, earlier this year, I had to
make special arrangements for a rental car with automatic
transmission.
Manual transmission is standard - in more ways than one :-)
... the extra cost for the automatic amounted to almost 1/3
of the total ! Insurance waiver was 1/3 ; rental 1/3.
Stupid little Skoda was "programmed" to shift like a manual
though - causing annooying jerks and delays.
I was glad to have it though - crazy narrow winding roads
provide enough excitement - combined with right-hand-driving
on the wrong side of the road ..
John T.


We went to Ireland two years ago. Quite the scam for rental cars. I
opted for a manual. I didn't reserve a diesel, which cost more, but
that's what Avis gave me which was fine, some sort of Kia SUV. Only a
very limited number of credit cards cover Ireland in terms of insurance,
most exclude a few countries, including Ireland. You have to bring a
letter from the credit card company stating that they provide coverage,
and I expected it to be hard to explain to the credit card company what
I needed, but they instantly understood and seconds later they e-mailed
me the necessary documentation. You still have to pay a small fee to
waive the insurance.
I thought it would be a pain to have to shift with my left hand while
driving on the left, on narrow roads, but it was fine. In fact, I think
that it made me more involved in driving and helped me pay attention.



My credit card limit wasn't high enough !
The rental company wanted about 10 thousand dollars
" reserved " on the card before they waived the huge
deductible - or as they call it excess. It creeped me out,
so I just paid through the nose for their insurance.
My own car insurance covers rentals for North America only.
John T.


In Italy it is the law to get the insurance. I like driving in Italy.
The rules are a bit different on the road and they stay out of the left
lane if not passing. A bit more aggressive than here in all cases.

Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...



On 12/6/2017 12:00 AM, micky wrote:


Shopping for a car a couple months ago, guy had a beautiful red Mustang,
special black trim, special power chip for ignition, car 12 years old
but interior (leather), exterior, engine compartment like new. etc.
Stick shift. One of his teenage sons was sort of trying to learn to
drive it and the other wasn't even learning to drive! The normal thing
to do would be to give the car to his son, but neither could handle it.


Times have changed. When we were in our early teens we were driving
with dad in the parking lot and could not wait until we were 16. My
brother turned 16 on a Thursday and passed his test on Saturday. I was
about 2 weeks after my birthday taking mine.

Now, having the latest cell phone is more important than cars and
driving. Stick shift? Nah, they can't do it.

I think even the opposite gender is not important to them...

--
Tekkie

On 12/5/2017 3:58 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My wife, before we were married, installed a car stereo in her car. My
daughter is very good with that kind of stuff. In the Americorp
organization she joined after college, they do outdoor education and
they train everyone in the use of power tools and in construction
techniques. I helped out last weekend building garden beds. I pre-cut
all the lumber and brought it. Her fellow volunteers were very good at
putting the whole thing together, drilling, screwing pieces together,
and understanding the whole design. I don't know if they could have
planned the whole design and done it in a way that minimized lumber
costs, and that did not depend on the fasteners for structural
integrity. OTOH, my son was never into any of this kind of stuff.

My belief is that the lack of mechanical ability among many youth and
adults is based on two things:

1. Japanese cars. Far fewer mechanical breakdowns and less maintenance
led to the end of dads spending time with their kids showing them how to
change oil, plugs, points, rotors, and adjust timing on high-maintenance
vehicles. The whole skill set of using tools and fixing cars was lost.
Car maintenance teaches skills that are transferable to many other
applications.

2. Immigrants from countries with low-cost labor. My Indian friend told
me that it took a lot of getting used to life in the U.S. because in
India even middle class people have multiple servants to help out, i.e.
cooks, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, etc.. In China, labor is so cheap
that the middle class hires laborers and there is no "do-it-yourself"
mentality, it is viewed as demeaning to do home improvements like
painting or fixing plumbing problems. In the U.S., skilled and unskilled
labor is expensive so the "do-it-yourself" mentality and infrastructure
developed.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:37:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 12/5/2017 3:58 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My wife, before we were married, installed a car stereo in her car. My
daughter is very good with that kind of stuff. In the Americorp
organization she joined after college, they do outdoor education and
they train everyone in the use of power tools and in construction
techniques. I helped out last weekend building garden beds. I pre-cut
all the lumber and brought it. Her fellow volunteers were very good at
putting the whole thing together, drilling, screwing pieces together,
and understanding the whole design. I don't know if they could have
planned the whole design and done it in a way that minimized lumber
costs, and that did not depend on the fasteners for structural
integrity. OTOH, my son was never into any of this kind of stuff.

My belief is that the lack of mechanical ability among many youth and
adults is based on two things:

1. Japanese cars. Far fewer mechanical breakdowns and less maintenance
led to the end of dads spending time with their kids showing them how to
change oil, plugs, points, rotors, and adjust timing on high-maintenance
vehicles. The whole skill set of using tools and fixing cars was lost.
Car maintenance teaches skills that are transferable to many other
applications.

2. Immigrants from countries with low-cost labor. My Indian friend told
me that it took a lot of getting used to life in the U.S. because in
India even middle class people have multiple servants to help out, i.e.
cooks, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, etc.. In China, labor is so cheap
that the middle class hires laborers and there is no "do-it-yourself"
mentality, it is viewed as demeaning to do home improvements like
painting or fixing plumbing problems. In the U.S., skilled and unskilled
labor is expensive so the "do-it-yourself" mentality and infrastructure
developed.

Figures someone would put foreigners to blame. Let me guess, you voted for Trump, didn't you? The give away clue is that it makes no sense and it's self-contradictory. Labor for auto mechanics is over $100 an hour, clearly it's not a low cost labor issue.

On 12/6/2017 4:37 PM, sms wrote:


My belief is that the lack of mechanical ability among many youth and
adults is based on two things:

1. Japanese cars. Far fewer mechanical breakdowns and less maintenance
led to the end of dads spending time with their kids showing them how to
change oil, plugs, points, rotors, and adjust timing on high-maintenance
vehicles. The whole skill set of using tools and fixing cars was lost.
Car maintenance teaches skills that are transferable to many other
applications.

Better standard of living is part of that. We drove some really cheap
cars that broke down frequently too. We had a part time job to buy a
$50 car. Now daddy buys junior a fairly new more reliable car.


2. Immigrants from countries with low-cost labor. My Indian friend told
me that it took a lot of getting used to life in the U.S. because in
India even middle class people have multiple servants to help out, i.e.
cooks, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, etc.. In China, labor is so cheap
that the middle class hires laborers and there is no "do-it-yourself"
mentality, it is viewed as demeaning to do home improvements like
painting or fixing plumbing problems.

I could learn to like that.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:31:59 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:37:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 12/5/2017 3:58 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My wife, before we were married, installed a car stereo in her car. My
daughter is very good with that kind of stuff. In the Americorp
organization she joined after college, they do outdoor education and
they train everyone in the use of power tools and in construction
techniques. I helped out last weekend building garden beds. I pre-cut
all the lumber and brought it. Her fellow volunteers were very good at
putting the whole thing together, drilling, screwing pieces together,
and understanding the whole design. I don't know if they could have
planned the whole design and done it in a way that minimized lumber
costs, and that did not depend on the fasteners for structural
integrity. OTOH, my son was never into any of this kind of stuff.

My belief is that the lack of mechanical ability among many youth and
adults is based on two things:

1. Japanese cars. Far fewer mechanical breakdowns and less maintenance
led to the end of dads spending time with their kids showing them how to
change oil, plugs, points, rotors, and adjust timing on high-maintenance
vehicles. The whole skill set of using tools and fixing cars was lost.
Car maintenance teaches skills that are transferable to many other
applications.

2. Immigrants from countries with low-cost labor. My Indian friend told
me that it took a lot of getting used to life in the U.S. because in
India even middle class people have multiple servants to help out, i.e.
cooks, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, etc.. In China, labor is so cheap
that the middle class hires laborers and there is no "do-it-yourself"
mentality, it is viewed as demeaning to do home improvements like
painting or fixing plumbing problems. In the U.S., skilled and unskilled
labor is expensive so the "do-it-yourself" mentality and infrastructure
developed.

Figures someone would put foreigners to blame. Let me guess, you voted for Trump, didn't you? The give away clue is that it makes no sense and it's self-contradictory. Labor for auto mechanics is over $100 an hour, clearly it's not a low cost labor issue.


It figures that you'd blame President Trump. I see that your Trump Derangement Syndrome is going full blast. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Deplorable Monster

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:31:59 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:37:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 12/5/2017 3:58 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My wife, before we were married, installed a car stereo in her car. My
daughter is very good with that kind of stuff. In the Americorp
organization she joined after college, they do outdoor education and
they train everyone in the use of power tools and in construction
techniques. I helped out last weekend building garden beds. I pre-cut
all the lumber and brought it. Her fellow volunteers were very good at
putting the whole thing together, drilling, screwing pieces together,
and understanding the whole design. I don't know if they could have
planned the whole design and done it in a way that minimized lumber
costs, and that did not depend on the fasteners for structural
integrity. OTOH, my son was never into any of this kind of stuff.

My belief is that the lack of mechanical ability among many youth and
adults is based on two things:

1. Japanese cars. Far fewer mechanical breakdowns and less maintenance
led to the end of dads spending time with their kids showing them how to
change oil, plugs, points, rotors, and adjust timing on high-maintenance
vehicles. The whole skill set of using tools and fixing cars was lost..
Car maintenance teaches skills that are transferable to many other
applications.

2. Immigrants from countries with low-cost labor. My Indian friend told
me that it took a lot of getting used to life in the U.S. because in
India even middle class people have multiple servants to help out, i.e.
cooks, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, etc.. In China, labor is so cheap
that the middle class hires laborers and there is no "do-it-yourself"
mentality, it is viewed as demeaning to do home improvements like
painting or fixing plumbing problems. In the U.S., skilled and unskilled
labor is expensive so the "do-it-yourself" mentality and infrastructure
developed.

Figures someone would put foreigners to blame. Let me guess, you voted for Trump, didn't you? The give away clue is that it makes no sense and it's self-contradictory. Labor for auto mechanics is over $100 an hour, clearly it's not a low cost labor issue.


It figures that you'd blame President Trump. I see that your Trump Derangement Syndrome is going full blast. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Deplorable Monster

Lying again. I didn't blame Trump. SMS blamed immigrants for kids today not learning how to fix cars. I simply pointed out that xenophobic reasoning is what we see expressed by Trump and you trumpets.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 6:51:40 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:31:59 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 4:37:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 12/5/2017 3:58 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 05/12/17 14:48, harry newton wrote:
He who is Oren said on Mon, 04 Dec 2017 14:54:05 -0800:

It really is a shame when college kids can't fix a scratchy sounding
speaker. A speaker smarter than a snowflake. with a safe place.

The whole family is girls.

All the more reason to encourage them to learn to make and fix stuff.
Geek girls rock!

My wife, before we were married, installed a car stereo in her car. My
daughter is very good with that kind of stuff. In the Americorp
organization she joined after college, they do outdoor education and
they train everyone in the use of power tools and in construction
techniques. I helped out last weekend building garden beds. I pre-cut
all the lumber and brought it. Her fellow volunteers were very good at
putting the whole thing together, drilling, screwing pieces together,
and understanding the whole design. I don't know if they could have
planned the whole design and done it in a way that minimized lumber
costs, and that did not depend on the fasteners for structural
integrity. OTOH, my son was never into any of this kind of stuff.

My belief is that the lack of mechanical ability among many youth and
adults is based on two things:

1. Japanese cars. Far fewer mechanical breakdowns and less maintenance
led to the end of dads spending time with their kids showing them how to
change oil, plugs, points, rotors, and adjust timing on high-maintenance
vehicles. The whole skill set of using tools and fixing cars was lost.
Car maintenance teaches skills that are transferable to many other
applications.

2. Immigrants from countries with low-cost labor. My Indian friend told
me that it took a lot of getting used to life in the U.S. because in
India even middle class people have multiple servants to help out, i.e.
cooks, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, etc.. In China, labor is so cheap
that the middle class hires laborers and there is no "do-it-yourself"
mentality, it is viewed as demeaning to do home improvements like
painting or fixing plumbing problems. In the U.S., skilled and unskilled
labor is expensive so the "do-it-yourself" mentality and infrastructure
developed.

Figures someone would put foreigners to blame. Let me guess, you voted for Trump, didn't you? The give away clue is that it makes no sense and it's self-contradictory. Labor for auto mechanics is over $100 an hour, clearly it's not a low cost labor issue.

It figures that you'd blame President Trump. I see that your Trump Derangement Syndrome is going full blast. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Deplorable Monster

Lying again. I didn't blame Trump. SMS blamed immigrants for kids today not learning how to fix cars. I simply pointed out that xenophobic reasoning is what we see expressed by Trump and you trumpets.


The manifestation of Trump Derangement Syndrome noted. Nuff said. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Observant Monster

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:55:08 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:12:49 -0500:

I bought an AWD a couple of years ago. I had a couple of hills on the
way to work and passed cars sliding all over. When you put it into snow
mode you get 50-50. The traction control though will vary it as needed
from 90-10 to 10-90. In Eco or regular mode it is 40-60.

I've since retired and have no plans to drive on a snowy day again.
Nothing that can't wait for the roads to be cleared.

If you live in snow country, then these traction schemes make sense.
If you don't live in snow country, chains are a lot cheaper in every way.
And better.

They're just not as convenient.
I'll NEVER drive with chains on a front wheel drive vehicle. I've had
enough chains break on RWD vehicles - and they do a lot of damage.
They are OK for getting out of a tough spot, but you HAVE to remove
them before hitting the highway.; Since I've goneback to dedicated
snows, I've not had a situation where having chains would have been
any advantager (and I'm in "snow country")

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:55:09 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is trader_4 said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 06:49:29 -0800 (PST):

There's a big difference in traction in the snow or similar conditions,
that's for sure.

People say that but it's like people who say that Hillary won the election.

Without the actual facts, it's a meaningless thing you just said.

If you say "deep snow" and "driving slowly in deep snow", then yes, there's
a big difference in traction.

But just "snow". Nope. There's no difference in traction if both cars are
in just a sprinkling of snow, or if they're driving even close to the speed
limit on any road in deep snow.

What's deep?
I don't know.

It's certainly more than an inch.
It's not deeper than 15 inches.

It's somewhere around 5 inches maybe?

So yes. FWD handles better than RWD when driving slowly in 5 inches of
snow.

That's the ONLY time FWD handles better though.
Seems like a huge tradeoff for the ability to handle five inches of snow.

All the weight of the engine helps. Not having the
driveshaft hump is a plus for inside space too. But then SUVs are selling
like hot cakes and they have all wheel drive, which I guess combines
some of the best of both designs. And those continue to evolve, from
fixed proportioning of power between front and rear, to computer controlled.
Another interesting thing, some pickups are hitting the $100K mark now.

How deep do you think the snow needs to be for FWD to make a difference
over RWD?

One inch isn't going to cut it.
It has to be deep to matter.

How deep?
With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage - but
you need to know how to drive FWD. And it's not just snow. Gravel
roads too. I rallyed an old R12 againt Datsun 510s with double the
horsepower and consistently beat them. Summer and winter.
I learned to drive on a Mini.
The 204 Peugeot handled the nasty roads of Zambia in the rainy season
VERY well - at least as well as the VW. Never had a problem
maintaining control and staying on the road. Point the front wheels
where you want to go and accellerate (but don't chicken out and lift
your foot in a turn!!)

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 1:55:14 PM UTC-5, harry newton wrote:
He who is trader_4 said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 06:49:29 -0800 (PST):

There's a big difference in traction in the snow or similar conditions,
that's for sure.

People say that but it's like people who say that Hillary won the election.

Without the actual facts, it's a meaningless thing you just said.

That's your opinion. I'd note though that in another post you said
you'd never own a FWD vehicle, so obviously your experience is limited.
I've owned both, even at the same time, and have actual experience.





If you say "deep snow" and "driving slowly in deep snow", then yes, there's
a big difference in traction.


With more weight on the tire, traction is improved, regardless of what
the exact surface condition. The holding force is generally proportional
to the mass. Most of the time, it doesn't matter. Sometimes it matters
a lot.



But just "snow". Nope. There's no difference in traction if both cars are
in just a sprinkling of snow, or if they're driving even close to the speed
limit on any road in deep snow.

What's deep?
I don't know.

It's certainly more than an inch.
It's not deeper than 15 inches.

It's somewhere around 5 inches maybe?

So yes. FWD handles better than RWD when driving slowly in 5 inches of
snow.

Not owning one, how would you know? I could provide you with plenty
of cites from credible car sources that say FWD gives better traction
than RWD and it's not limited to conditions of 5 inches of snow.
But I'm sure it wouldn't matter. You must be taking some unusual
steps to avoid having a FWD car, what's left that isn't at this point,
besides some select sports cars, eg Corvette or Ferrari? Maybe some
BMW or MB? Even those have gone to AWD mostly.




That's the ONLY time FWD handles better though.
Seems like a huge tradeoff for the ability to handle five inches of snow.

What huge tradeoff? For typical everyday driving there is no noticeable
difference.

On 12/06/2017 07:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:55:08 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:12:49 -0500:

I bought an AWD a couple of years ago. I had a couple of hills on the
way to work and passed cars sliding all over. When you put it into snow
mode you get 50-50. The traction control though will vary it as needed
from 90-10 to 10-90. In Eco or regular mode it is 40-60.

I've since retired and have no plans to drive on a snowy day again.
Nothing that can't wait for the roads to be cleared.

If you live in snow country, then these traction schemes make sense.
If you don't live in snow country, chains are a lot cheaper in every way.
And better.

They're just not as convenient.
I'll NEVER drive with chains on a front wheel drive vehicle. I've had
enough chains break on RWD vehicles - and they do a lot of damage.
They are OK for getting out of a tough spot, but you HAVE to remove
them before hitting the highway.; Since I've goneback to dedicated
snows, I've not had a situation where having chains would have been
any advantager (and I'm in "snow country")


I had my fill of chains driving an 18-wheeler. I put the studs on
Thanksgiving weekend and take them off sometime in the spring. We seldom
get deep snow but the roads tend to get snow packed and icy and stay
that way.

He who is trader_4 said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:56:40 -0800 (PST):

That's your opinion. I'd note though that in another post you said
you'd never own a FWD vehicle, so obviously your experience is limited.
I've owned both, even at the same time, and have actual experience.

My only experience with FWD is with numerous rental cars, for maybe a week
at a time, sometimes only a few days at a time.

Hundreds of them over the years.

But I don't think I ever drove one in snow - but - I lived in snow country
for 40 years and I go to Tahoe frequently in the winter - so I'm getting
used to chains on RWD which works just fine.

Remember, we're talking deep snow (and Tahoe snow is deep). The plows
handle 20 inches of snow routinely. It's not even a big deal to them.

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:32:54 -0500:

With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?

Nobody is driving fast in six inches of snow.
At least they shouldn't be driving fast in six inches of snow.


- but
you need to know how to drive FWD. And it's not just snow. Gravel
roads too. I rallyed an old R12 againt Datsun 510s with double the
horsepower and consistently beat them. Summer and winter.

Hmmmm.... I don't drive on gravel roads. I guess it's the same thing, if
you're in deep gravel. Six inches of gravel is pretty deep though.

I learned to drive on a Mini.
The 204 Peugeot handled the nasty roads of Zambia in the rainy season
VERY well - at least as well as the VW. Never had a problem
maintaining control and staying on the road. Point the front wheels
where you want to go and accellerate (but don't chicken out and lift
your foot in a turn!!)

We all know that FWD and RWD handle differently under all conditions, good
or bad. They're not even close.

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:25:49 -0500:

I'll NEVER drive with chains on a front wheel drive vehicle. I've had
enough chains break on RWD vehicles - and they do a lot of damage.
They are OK for getting out of a tough spot, but you HAVE to remove
them before hitting the highway.;

In California, where I live, when you go to Tahoe, you use the HIGHWAY.
It's on the HIGHWAY that the cops force 2WD vehicles to put on chains.

The whole point of using chains is that you're going SLOWLY in deep snow.
Same as the ONLY TIME that FWD handles better than RWD.

Deep snow isn't 1 inch. It's more than that. It's a few inches.
Maybe five. Maybe six. I don't know. But it's not one inch.
One inch is nothing.

In Tahoe, it snows 18 inches in a night routinely.

How fast are you going when you're driving in six inches of snow?

You FWD guys don't think logically.
It doesn't matter if it's a highway or not when the snow is 6 inches deep.

That's the ONLY time FWD handles better than RWD.

Since I've goneback to dedicated
snows, I've not had a situation where having chains would have been
any advantager (and I'm in "snow country")

I lived for 40 years in snow country and we did just fine without chains,
but that's how they do things out here in California.

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC), harry newton wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:32:54 -0500:

With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?


FWD has better traction. Period. It's simple physics.
How much snow? However much it takes to affect traction with the road.
How about 1/16"? How about 1/32" of ice?
I would often lose traction with my RWD vehicles when the road got slick.
That's why I had to put sandbags in the trunk or truck bed in the winter.
I've driven to work in 6" of snow. RWD with 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.
The limit with deep snow is when it's high enough to hit the undercarriage.
You'll lift the tires enough so they can't get traction.
With FWD I don't need to put 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.

On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 07:15:02 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC), harry newton wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:32:54 -0500:

With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?


FWD has better traction. Period. It's simple physics.
How much snow? However much it takes to affect traction with the road.
How about 1/16"? How about 1/32" of ice?
I would often lose traction with my RWD vehicles when the road got slick.
That's why I had to put sandbags in the trunk or truck bed in the winter.
I've driven to work in 6" of snow. RWD with 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.
The limit with deep snow is when it's high enough to hit the undercarriage.
You'll lift the tires enough so they can't get traction.
With FWD I don't need to put 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.

The problem is, when you lose traction you lose both propulsion and
steering.

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:02:00 -0700, rbowman wrote:

On 12/06/2017 07:25 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:55:08 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Ed Pawlowski said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:12:49 -0500:

I bought an AWD a couple of years ago. I had a couple of hills on the
way to work and passed cars sliding all over. When you put it into snow
mode you get 50-50. The traction control though will vary it as needed
from 90-10 to 10-90. In Eco or regular mode it is 40-60.

I've since retired and have no plans to drive on a snowy day again.
Nothing that can't wait for the roads to be cleared.

If you live in snow country, then these traction schemes make sense.
If you don't live in snow country, chains are a lot cheaper in every way.
And better.

They're just not as convenient.
I'll NEVER drive with chains on a front wheel drive vehicle. I've had
enough chains break on RWD vehicles - and they do a lot of damage.
They are OK for getting out of a tough spot, but you HAVE to remove
them before hitting the highway.; Since I've goneback to dedicated
snows, I've not had a situation where having chains would have been
any advantager (and I'm in "snow country")


I had my fill of chains driving an 18-wheeler. I put the studs on
Thanksgiving weekend and take them off sometime in the spring. We seldom
get deep snow but the roads tend to get snow packed and icy and stay
that way.
They outlawed studs here way back in about '72

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:32:54 -0500:

With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?

Nobody is driving fast in six inches of snow.
At least they shouldn't be driving fast in six inches of snow.

You haven't driven on the 400 series highways in Ontario, obviously.
It takes a foot of snow to slow down some of these clowns


- but
you need to know how to drive FWD. And it's not just snow. Gravel
roads too. I rallyed an old R12 againt Datsun 510s with double the
horsepower and consistently beat them. Summer and winter.

Hmmmm.... I don't drive on gravel roads. I guess it's the same thing, if
you're in deep gravel. Six inches of gravel is pretty deep though.

Not deep gravel at all - just a loose layer of "ball bearings" on the
top - or a wet silty sandy slick


I learned to drive on a Mini.
The 204 Peugeot handled the nasty roads of Zambia in the rainy season
VERY well - at least as well as the VW. Never had a problem
maintaining control and staying on the road. Point the front wheels
where you want to go and accellerate (but don't chicken out and lift
your foot in a turn!!)

We all know that FWD and RWD handle differently under all conditions, good
or bad. They're not even close.
And that does NOT make front wheel drive handling inferior as you
seem to believe - only different. And when you know how totake
advantage of that "difference" it CAN become an "advasntage".
No, you can't "power slide" the rear end around on turns to tighten
the radius - but that's about the only "handling deficiency" I've
found - and if you know how, you CAN "hang the tail loose" on a FWD
car too - particularly if you have a hand operated parking brake. (but
it's not essential to the maeuver if you have enough power)

On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 07:15:02 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC), harry newton wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:32:54 -0500:

With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?


FWD has better traction. Period. It's simple physics.
How much snow? However much it takes to affect traction with the road.
How about 1/16"? How about 1/32" of ice?
I would often lose traction with my RWD vehicles when the road got slick.
That's why I had to put sandbags in the trunk or truck bed in the winter.
I've driven to work in 6" of snow. RWD with 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.
The limit with deep snow is when it's high enough to hit the undercarriage.
You'll lift the tires enough so they can't get traction.
With FWD I don't need to put 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.


Rear rngine rear drive has the same traction advantage, but with that
nasty rear polar momrnt of inertia - and the tendancy of the floor pan
to toboggan untill the rear wheels leavethe ground. With FWD you can
basically back out of anything you can drive into.

With the fiberglass cap and box liner on my Ranger it gets around
pretty good - the Haks don't hurt either. The taurus is more
sure-footed with the snows - and didn't even do too bad the years we
only had all seasons on it as long as the snow was less than about 4
inches and not too wet.

On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 11:25:15 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 07 Dec 2017 07:15:02 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:27:04 +0000 (UTC), harry newton wrote:

He who is Clare Snyder said on Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:32:54 -0500:

With a few inches of slop the FWD starts having an advantage

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?


FWD has better traction. Period. It's simple physics.
How much snow? However much it takes to affect traction with the road.
How about 1/16"? How about 1/32" of ice?
I would often lose traction with my RWD vehicles when the road got slick.
That's why I had to put sandbags in the trunk or truck bed in the winter.
I've driven to work in 6" of snow. RWD with 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.
The limit with deep snow is when it's high enough to hit the undercarriage.
You'll lift the tires enough so they can't get traction.
With FWD I don't need to put 3-400 lbs of sand in the trunk.

The problem is, when you lose traction you lose both propulsion and
steering.
And when you lose rear traction on a rwd steering doesn't do you much
good when the tail can go wherever it wants - one problem I found with
the Ranger having Posi. When it starts to spin, there is no "rudder"
left - - -

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 05:27:03 +0000 (UTC), harry newton
wrote:

He who is trader_4 said on Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:56:40 -0800 (PST):

That's your opinion. I'd note though that in another post you said
you'd never own a FWD vehicle, so obviously your experience is limited.
I've owned both, even at the same time, and have actual experience.

My only experience with FWD is with numerous rental cars, for maybe a week
at a time, sometimes only a few days at a time.

Which doesn't count as nEXPERIENCE. You have never learned to actually
DRIVE a front wheel drive vehicle

Hundreds of them over the years.

But I don't think I ever drove one in snow

And yet you feel qualiified to state that front wheel drive has no
advantage??????




- but - I lived in snow country
for 40 years and I go to Tahoe frequently in the winter - so I'm getting
used to chains on RWD which works just fine.

I drove back and forth to work EVERY DAY in the winter through some
of the worst winters south-central ontario has experienced - and I
drove front wheel drive cars in competition - successfully, I might
add. I think I'm a LITTLE more qualified to evaluate the driving
characteristics of front wheel drive cars - - -

Remember, we're talking deep snow (and Tahoe snow is deep). The plows
handle 20 inches of snow routinely. It's not even a big deal to them.

I can remember breaking drifts over the hood of the old ex-army 1943?
Dodge power wagon on MANY occaisions - and it's what's left on the
road AFTER the plough has removed 20 inches of snow that gets
challenging. When you have 3 inches of hardpack, with either another
inch or two of "slop" oir a good accumulation of freezing rain that
things get REALLY interesting - or when you hit that invisible patch
of "black death" at speed - - - . Untill you've driven front wheel
drive in winter conditions, don't go making yourself look like a fool
- - - -

snips

and it's what's left on the
road AFTER the plough has removed 20 inches of snow that gets
challenging. When you have 3 inches of hardpack, with either another
inch or two of "slop" oir a good accumulation of freezing rain that
things get REALLY interesting - or when you hit that invisible patch
of "black death" at speed - - - . Untill you've driven front wheel
drive in winter conditions, don't go making yourself look like a fool
- - - -


.. don't mention white-outs.
I find them terrifying - way worse than the poorest road conditions.
Perhaps modern technology could address this with collision avoidance
type stuff ? I wonder how well the driver-less cars cope with
white-outs ?
John T.

On 12/7/2017 12:27 AM, harry newton wrote:

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?

Nobody is driving fast in six inches of snow.
At least they shouldn't be driving fast in six inches of snow.


Sure they are. The SUV drivers with AWD. You see them in the ditches
on the side of the road after they pass you.

On Thursday, December 7, 2017 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 12/7/2017 12:27 AM, harry newton wrote:

Yes. With a few inches of snow, the FWD has the weight where you want ti. I
agree. How deep? I don't know. Maybe four inches? Maybe six?

Nobody is driving fast in six inches of snow.
At least they shouldn't be driving fast in six inches of snow.


Sure they are. The SUV drivers with AWD. You see them in the ditches
on the side of the road after they pass you.

Lol. That's what I see here too. We slow down and use awd for extra safety. But there are plenty of drivers out there, mostly young, who think awd means that an SUV can still safely do 70 on slick roads.