What's so special about GL4 manual transmission gear oil that it's 70 bucks
a gallon?
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46&pcid=7

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 03:53:04 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

What's so special about GL4 manual transmission gear oil that it's 70 bucks
a gallon?
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46&pcid=7
You are looking at a high end synthetic oil. GL4 is getting a bit
harder to find, but lots of GL5 for uder $25 a gallon in the USA - a
bit more in Canada. Walmart USA carries LubKing GL4 90 weight for $32
a gallon.

Given ,
wrote:

You are looking at a high end synthetic oil. GL4 is getting a bit
harder to find, but lots of GL5 for uder $25 a gallon in the USA - a
bit more in Canada. Walmart USA carries LubKing GL4 90 weight for $32
a gallon.

I'm told to get either Amsoil or Redline GL4 because it's for a Toyota W59
transmission with yellow metal that can be stripped off by GL5 additives
(plus there are no hypoid gears in the manual transmission).

So it's going to be GL-4 but which one?

Even the Amsoil is $70 per gallon.
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...r-lube-75w-90/

What's so special about these two fluids that makes them "worth" 70 dollars
a gallon?

On 8/18/17 10:53 PM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
What's so special about GL4 manual transmission gear oil that it's 70 bucks
a gallon?
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46&pcid=7

Have you checked Amazon, NAPA, or farm supply stores like Tractor
Supply,
Rural King, or Orscheln? The first one that pops up at Amazon is $35.

On 8/19/2017 1:42 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
Given ,
wrote:

You are looking at a high end synthetic oil. GL4 is getting a bit
harder to find, but lots of GL5 for uder $25 a gallon in the USA - a
bit more in Canada. Walmart USA carries LubKing GL4 90 weight for $32
a gallon.

I'm told to get either Amsoil or Redline GL4 because it's for a Toyota W59
transmission with yellow metal that can be stripped off by GL5 additives
(plus there are no hypoid gears in the manual transmission).

So it's going to be GL-4 but which one?

Even the Amsoil is $70 per gallon.
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...r-lube-75w-90/

What's so special about these two fluids that makes them "worth" 70 dollars
a gallon?


Synthetics last longer and lubricate (reduce friction) better. Most of
us don't need it but if you are planning yo keep the vehicle for a long
time, use it under harsh conditions, it is worth the extra money.

Corvettes come from the factory with synthetic engine oil. The Cruze
does not.

Given news wrote:

Have you checked Amazon, NAPA, or farm supply stores like Tractor
Supply,
Rural King, or Orscheln? The first one that pops up at Amazon is $35.

I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.

Even the Royal Purple 75W90 gear oil is $60 per gallon.
https://skspeed.com/royal-purple-013...-gl-5-1-quart/

All I want to know is what's so special about these gear oils that they
cost $60 to $70 a gallon (where I need about a gallon)?

Looking up the gear oils, I find technical information but nothing answers
my question which is why I asked here.

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

Given , Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Synthetics last longer and lubricate (reduce friction) better. Most of
us don't need it but if you are planning yo keep the vehicle for a long
time, use it under harsh conditions, it is worth the extra money.

Corvettes come from the factory with synthetic engine oil. The Cruze
does not.

I didn't realize these are "synthetics" as compared to whatever "normal"
gear oil is. Is that what's so special about what everyone seems to
recommend on the Toyota forum?

They all recommend mostly Redline, but sometimes Amsoil and less often
Royal Purple, all of which are over $60 and closer to $70 per gallon.

Looking up what I'm supposed to use, I found this paper which said not to
use GL5 and yet the Royal Purple is GL4/GL5 which this paper says is GL5.
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

All I'm looking for is information to make a decision as to what to put in
a very old (decades) W59 Toyota 5-speed which has synchronizers and yellow
metal.

Given , Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
than their non-synthetic counterparts.

I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
around $35/gallon.

But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
$35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.

Is it all due to synthetics?
Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?

The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.

On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.


Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 05:42:37 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

Given ,
wrote:

You are looking at a high end synthetic oil. GL4 is getting a bit
harder to find, but lots of GL5 for uder $25 a gallon in the USA - a
bit more in Canada. Walmart USA carries LubKing GL4 90 weight for $32
a gallon.

I'm told to get either Amsoil or Redline GL4 because it's for a Toyota W59
transmission with yellow metal that can be stripped off by GL5 additives
(plus there are no hypoid gears in the manual transmission).

So it's going to be GL-4 but which one?

Even the Amsoil is $70 per gallon.
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...r-lube-75w-90/

What's so special about these two fluids that makes them "worth" 70 dollars
a gallon?
Rerally nothing of you don't need synthetic. All you NEED is a simple
GL4 gear oil like the Walmart LubKing GL4. Synthetic doesn't thicken
as much in the cold, or thin as much in the heat, and MAY last a
little longer, but not enoughlonger to make it worth 4 times as much
(there isGL4 oil available for as little as about US$16 a gallon)

On 8/19/2017 10:04 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
Given , Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
than their non-synthetic counterparts.

I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
around $35/gallon.

But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
$35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.

One factor is volume. Regular motor oil is made in much larger
quantities. I don't know about the differences in distilling and
processing to comment about other factors.



Is it all due to synthetics?
Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?

The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.


It may help, but it may not do a damned thing. You have to find the
real cause of the shifting problem. IMO, better lube will have minimal
effect. It does not put metal back on worn parts, it does not
straighten bent linkage.

You would get better results if you describe the actual problem. Hard
to move the shift lever? Gears grinding? Synchronizer slow? Clutch
adjustment? After 20 years a lot of things can be worn. Could be as
simple as a worn pin in the linkage or as compex as main gears worn out.

Given ,
wrote:

Rerally nothing of you don't need synthetic. All you NEED is a simple
GL4 gear oil like the Walmart LubKing GL4. Synthetic doesn't thicken
as much in the cold, or thin as much in the heat, and MAY last a
little longer, but not enoughlonger to make it worth 4 times as much
(there isGL4 oil available for as little as about US$16 a gallon)

I was hoping to get good information like that so I thank you because all
the guys on the Toyota forum are saying to only use Amsoil or Redline but
they don't really know why.

I'm looking at GL4 and SAE 75W90 as those are the specs from Toyota.

My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
much, how does it keep the 90 rating?

Isn't that what the rating is all about?
So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?

Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
Given news wrote:

Have you checked Amazon, NAPA, or farm supply stores like Tractor
Supply,
Rural King, or Orscheln? The first one that pops up at Amazon is $35.

I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.

Well, then buy that.

There are plenty of cheaper GL4 oils out there. Most of the cheaper ones
are not synthetics. They will not have sulfur additives that will damage
nonferrous metals the way GL5 does. But, they also will not last as long
and be as slick as the synthetics.

The synthetics are much more expensive. If they are formulated well, it
is possible to make synthetics that cling to surfaces better, don't degrade
as much with time, and keep junk in solution better. The Red Line will
definitely do these things. Do you need any of these characteristics?
I don't know, but it sounds like "all the Toyota guys" think you do.

Even the Royal Purple 75W90 gear oil is $60 per gallon.
https://skspeed.com/royal-purple-013...-gl-5-1-quart/

That's not particularly expensive for a synthetic oil.

All I want to know is what's so special about these gear oils that they
cost $60 to $70 a gallon (where I need about a gallon)?

They are synthetic oils, actually genuine synthetics where the base oil
materal has been made from a pure short-chain stock. Whereas natural
petroleum oils are always going to be a mixture of paraffins, napthas,
and napthalines no matter how well they are purified, these are pretty damn
pure. But, it's more expensive to make an oil from ethylene gas than it is
to take an existing oil and purify it.

If you think $70/gal is expensive, you should see what the high purity
instrument oils for rebuilding speedometers costs.

Looking up the gear oils, I find technical information but nothing answers
my question which is why I asked here.

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

The answer is mostly that a dollar isn't worth a dollar anymore. Back when
gas was a quarter a gallon, gear oil cost about 25 times what gas did. Today
gas is $2/gal. and gear oil costs about 25 times what gas does.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Given , Stormin' Norman
wrote:

Is the shifting problem your real issue? You are asking questions
about why item A is more expensive than item B and that takes us off
on tangents about refining, manufacturing, etc.

Good point where the answer is that I'm going to change the 20-year-old oil
anyway, just in case that solves the shifting problem and even if it
doesn't solve the shifting problem, it's well past its due date, don't you
think?

So, I have two separate (but combined) issues which are that I have a
shifting problem getting into gear when the clutch seems to be engaging OK
(a bit late in the pedal arc, but still ok) and where it's time to change
the gear oil.

I'll probably do the differential at the same time but that's a different
question because I think that takes GL5.


If you are having a shifting issue on your 20 year old transmission, I
would start by thoroughly inspecting the clutch assembly including the
actuator. There are a number of other reasons why the manual
transmission might be hard to shift. You can start replacing things
willy-nilly, but that gets expensive. It is far more logical to
diagnose the actual cause of the problems.

I agree with you so that's why I would like this thread to just be how to
intelligently choose the transmission gear oil for a twenty-year-old
transmission.

Bill wrote:
On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.

Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.

The problem with older cars is that what the manufacturer recommended has
likely been unavailable for decades.

We have this issue with motor oils that don't have the ZDDP levels that
older lifter designs expected.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 14:04:58 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

Given , Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
than their non-synthetic counterparts.

I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
around $35/gallon.

But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
$35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.

Is it all due to synthetics?
Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?

The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.
When I put synthetic in my ranger it GOT hard to shift

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 10:08:48 -0400, Bill wrote:

On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.


Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.
I was a Toyota service manager for a long time. Synthetic NOT
REQUIRED

On 8/19/2017 10:48 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:


My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
much, how does it keep the 90 rating?

Isn't that what the rating is all about?
So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?


Better living through chemistry!

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 10:48:06 AM UTC-4, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
Given ,
wrote:

Rerally nothing of you don't need synthetic. All you NEED is a simple
GL4 gear oil like the Walmart LubKing GL4. Synthetic doesn't thicken
as much in the cold, or thin as much in the heat, and MAY last a
little longer, but not enoughlonger to make it worth 4 times as much
(there isGL4 oil available for as little as about US$16 a gallon)

I was hoping to get good information like that so I thank you because all
the guys on the Toyota forum are saying to only use Amsoil or Redline but
they don't really know why.

You see this on lots of those gear head forums. Where they will
spend $$$$ for super premium products that make no sense without
even understanding why. I've been at the BMW dealer parts counter
and seen people come in to buy oil at $8 a qt, they believe you
have to use only BMW antifreeze, etc. As long as it meets the
spec recommended by the auto manufacturer, it will be fine.





I'm looking at GL4 and SAE 75W90 as those are the specs from Toyota.

My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
much, how does it keep the 90 rating?


Isn't that what the rating is all about?
So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?

The 75 and the 90 spec the viscosity at the cold and hot ends of
the working temp range and both types have to meet it. Synthetic may
exceed it, hold that viscosity profile over a wider range, but it's not
going to be an issue for your application.

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 9:10:47 AM UTC-4, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 12:54:46 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

Given news wrote:

Have you checked Amazon, NAPA, or farm supply stores like Tractor
Supply,
Rural King, or Orscheln? The first one that pops up at Amazon is $35.

I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.

Even the Royal Purple 75W90 gear oil is $60 per gallon.
https://skspeed.com/royal-purple-013...-gl-5-1-quart/

All I want to know is what's so special about these gear oils that they
cost $60 to $70 a gallon (where I need about a gallon)?

Looking up the gear oils, I find technical information but nothing answers
my question which is why I asked here.

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
than their non-synthetic counterparts.


--

The problem is Donald Trump. The solution is impeachment or, the otherwise legal
removal, from office, of the greatest threat to peace the world has ever known.

And Amsoil and Royal Purple are recognized brand names, that the
gear heads go gaga over, so you pay
more for them because they can get it, just like with other products.
You can find typically find synthetics from other manufacturers that
meet the same specs, but cost less.

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 10:08:58 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.


Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.

I just said that in another post. You see that in those gear head
forums a lot. I just saw a thread where people in a BMW forum where
someone was asking where to source replacement vacuum hose because
they needed some and the BMW product was too expensive. To replace
even a modest amount of it, if you ordered it by the BMW part #,
it would be $75+. Even aftermarket sources, if you order it by the
BMW part numbers, it's probably still half that. Yet some gear head
chimes in that "if you can't afford to buy some vacuum hose at BMW,
you shouldn't own the car". You can get silicone hose of the right
diameter for less than $1 a foot.

And when it comes to fluids, some of these gear heads must think that
every manufacturer has their own refinery or chemical factory.

On 8/19/2017 10:48 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
much, how does it keep the 90 rating?

Isn't that what the rating is all about?
So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?

That's a function of the VI additives, not the base oil. A higher end oil
is apt to have better and more stable VI additives. This means that after
five years in the transmission, it's apt to remain a 75W90 oil, whereas the
less expensive oil probably won't be.

Now, in extreme cold, the synthetic might well be thinner. Remember that
it's a 75W90 oil meaning that two viscosity measurements are made at two
different temperatures. Once you get outside those temperatures, the
behaviour of the different oils will not be the same. This isn't an issue
here in Virginia but it might be a very significant one in Maine.

These days there are a lot of conventional oils that come very close to the
stability and quality of the synthetics, and in the US most of them can be
sold legally as "synthetic" even though they are not really. This makes
the labelling very problematic unless you look very carefully. The Castrol
Syntec 10W-30 can't be sold legally in Europe as a synthetic oil, but the
Syntec 10W-40 can be. If you look carefully at the type approvals on the
label you can see this.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 8/19/2017 10:52 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Bill wrote:
On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.
Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.
The problem with older cars is that what the manufacturer recommended has
likely been unavailable for decades.

We have this issue with motor oils that don't have the ZDDP levels that
older lifter designs expected.
--scott


Oh, if you are trying to make this vehicle last forever, quit being such a tightwad and buy the Amsoil.

Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...



On 8/19/2017 10:48 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:


My one question to you is if the synthetic doesn't thicken as much in the
cold, how does it keep the 75W and if it doesn't thin out in the heat as
much, how does it keep the 90 rating?

Isn't that what the rating is all about?
So doesn't one 75W90 act the same at cold/hot as another 75W90?


Better living through chemistry!

Isn't that Franks motto?

--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...



On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 14:04:58 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

Given , Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
than their non-synthetic counterparts.

I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
around $35/gallon.

But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
$35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.

Is it all due to synthetics?
Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?

The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.
When I put synthetic in my ranger it GOT hard to shift

Clare, I saw a Ranger on a car lot. I called a couple days later to see if I
could take a look at it. SOLD...

--
Tekkie

trader_4 posted for all of us...



On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 10:08:58 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
On 08/19/2017 08:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
I admit I'm running off of fear since all the Toyota guys say that you must
use either Amsoil or Royal Purple or Redline GL4 75W90 in the manual
transmission.


Forum "blowhard know-it-alls" are a dime a dozen. I use whatever the mfg recommends.

I just said that in another post. You see that in those gear head
forums a lot. I just saw a thread where people in a BMW forum where
someone was asking where to source replacement vacuum hose because
they needed some and the BMW product was too expensive. To replace
even a modest amount of it, if you ordered it by the BMW part #,
it would be $75+. Even aftermarket sources, if you order it by the
BMW part numbers, it's probably still half that. Yet some gear head
chimes in that "if you can't afford to buy some vacuum hose at BMW,
you shouldn't own the car". You can get silicone hose of the right
diameter for less than $1 a foot.

That sucks g

And when it comes to fluids, some of these gear heads must think that
every manufacturer has their own refinery or chemical factory.

I want gen u ine stuff.

--
Tekkie

Given ,
trader_4 wrote:

Yet some gear head
chimes in that "if you can't afford to buy some vacuum hose at BMW,
you shouldn't own the car". You can get silicone hose of the right
diameter for less than $1 a foot.

And when it comes to fluids, some of these gear heads must think that
every manufacturer has their own refinery or chemical factory.

I'm going to agree with you that they say a LOT on those forums that "if
you can't afford to pay X for Y, then you shouldn't own the car".

But what they fail to understand is that a question ASKING what's different
about Redline MT-90 75W90 GL-4 gear oil that makes it worth twice the price
of some other 75W90 GL-4 gear oil is NOT a question about price.

It's a question about what's different besides price.

All they see is "price" because everyone understands numbers.
What they don't see is the question about what is different that warrants
that price.

Sometimes the answer to price performance questions is that the performance
merits the price while other times there's a lot less performance than
there is price.

It's a ratio - but without knowing what's different - nobody can make an
intelligent decision on the price-to-performance ratio.

I'm not sure I understand yet what's different in the
Redline/Amsoil/RPurpal 75W90 GL4 because I live in a warm state where the
75W isn't my issue but the 90 is.

90 weight is 90 weight.
If it's 90 weight for more years, then that's OK.
If it's 90 weight at tremendously hotter than normal, then that's OK.

But that was the question, which I now can hone because I didn't know that
the expensive oils were synthetic.

If a synthetic oil "lasts longer" at 75W90, well, that's worth something.
I'm only asking what's the difference.

On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 8:21:54 PM UTC-4, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:
Given ,
trader_4 wrote:

Yet some gear head
chimes in that "if you can't afford to buy some vacuum hose at BMW,
you shouldn't own the car". You can get silicone hose of the right
diameter for less than $1 a foot.

And when it comes to fluids, some of these gear heads must think that
every manufacturer has their own refinery or chemical factory.

I'm going to agree with you that they say a LOT on those forums that "if
you can't afford to pay X for Y, then you shouldn't own the car".

But what they fail to understand is that a question ASKING what's different
about Redline MT-90 75W90 GL-4 gear oil that makes it worth twice the price
of some other 75W90 GL-4 gear oil is NOT a question about price.

It's a question about what's different besides price.

All they see is "price" because everyone understands numbers.
What they don't see is the question about what is different that warrants
that price.

Sometimes the answer to price performance questions is that the performance
merits the price while other times there's a lot less performance than
there is price.

It's a ratio - but without knowing what's different - nobody can make an
intelligent decision on the price-to-performance ratio.

I'm not sure I understand yet what's different in the
Redline/Amsoil/RPurpal 75W90 GL4 because I live in a warm state where the
75W isn't my issue but the 90 is.

90 weight is 90 weight.
If it's 90 weight for more years, then that's OK.
If it's 90 weight at tremendously hotter than normal, then that's OK.

But that was the question, which I now can hone because I didn't know that
the expensive oils were synthetic.

If a synthetic oil "lasts longer" at 75W90, well, that's worth something.
I'm only asking what's the difference.

That's the biggest difference, that synthetic last longer and you can
go longer between oil changes. BMW uses synthetic and was at 15K for
oil change interval for years. More recently they backed down to 10K,
presumably because they decided they were pushing it too far.

Given ,
wrote:

I was a Toyota service manager for a long time. Synthetic NOT
REQUIRED

Clare, can I ask a question about "temperature"?

Today I took a drive to San Francisco, where I took some friends on a tour,
so the car was fully loaded and I could smell the asbestos (or whatever
that smell is) on some of the very steep hills where I had to stop and then
slip the clutch when starting (as cars were behind me).

While the clutch worked for two hundred miles getting there and getting
back, at some point during the high-stress hills, the clutch pedal sort of
just stuck at the low position a couple of times. What would cause that?

Also, at about the same high-stress time, it was hard to get into first and
second gear. Like really hard.

Yet, the hundred miles there and the hundred miles back and the fifty or so
miles in and around the city in lower stress situations, the clutch worked
ok.

Could that be the fluid?
Or something else?

Given the fluid I put in will definitely be GL4 and 75W90 (as per Toyota
specs), would a synthetic matter for this issue?

Or do all transmissions do that?

Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

While the clutch worked for two hundred miles getting there and getting
back, at some point during the high-stress hills, the clutch pedal sort of
just stuck at the low position a couple of times. What would cause that?

A leak in the hydraulics. Check the master cylinder first, then check
the slave. If you aren't changing your brake fluid every year or two,
now might be a good time to try doing that. My inclination would be to
pull the piston from the master and check the condition of the seals too.

Also, at about the same high-stress time, it was hard to get into first and
second gear. Like really hard.

That could be because the clutch isn't completely out, or it might be for
some other reason. Could be sticky synchronizers.

Given the fluid I put in will definitely be GL4 and 75W90 (as per Toyota
specs), would a synthetic matter for this issue?

Or do all transmissions do that?

One of the things about SOME of the synthetic oils is that they have strong
solvent properties. I know this is the case for the Royal Purple, but I
cannot speak for all the others. If your transmission is gunked up from
varnish due to years of not having changed the fluid properly, the high
solvent oil may dissolve some of that. It's possible one of the "Toyota
Guys" is thinking that your synchronizers are gunked up with sticky goo
and that a synthetic oil might help free them. And that is likely not too
bad a plan. $50 worth of oil is a lot less expensive than dropping the
transmission to look inside. However, your clutch issue would make me
suspect the clutch hydraulics rather than the synchronizers. Even so,
you should be changing fluids on a regular basis and it won't hurt to
start now.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 15:01:34 -0400, Tekkie®
wrote:

posted for all of us...



On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 14:04:58 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

Given , Stormin' Norman
wrote:

The specific products you mentioned above are all synthetic lubricants
and cost more to manufacture, hence, they are more expensive at retail
than their non-synthetic counterparts.

I think I have the answer as to "why" now, which is that the synthetics
cost about $70 per gallon while the not synthetics cost about half that, at
around $35/gallon.

But why, when motor oil is commonly half that still, is gear oil at even
$35 per gallon, but much more importantly, what would be a reason to choose
between the $35/gallon SAE 75W90 GL-4 gear oil versus the $70/gallon stuff.

Is it all due to synthetics?
Are synthetics better for a two-decade old 5-speed manual transmission?

The reason I'm looking is that the shifting is getting harder to get into
gear lately, so someone suggested putting the high end transmission fluid.
When I put synthetic in my ranger it GOT hard to shift

Clare, I saw a Ranger on a car lot. I called a couple days later to see if I
could take a look at it. SOLD...
Good ones don't last long on the lot.

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 03:01:56 +0000 (UTC), Bram van den Heuvel
wrote:

Given ,
wrote:

I was a Toyota service manager for a long time. Synthetic NOT
REQUIRED

Clare, can I ask a question about "temperature"?

Today I took a drive to San Francisco, where I took some friends on a tour,
so the car was fully loaded and I could smell the asbestos (or whatever
that smell is) on some of the very steep hills where I had to stop and then
slip the clutch when starting (as cars were behind me).

While the clutch worked for two hundred miles getting there and getting
back, at some point during the high-stress hills, the clutch pedal sort of
just stuck at the low position a couple of times. What would cause that?

Also, at about the same high-stress time, it was hard to get into first and
second gear. Like really hard.

Yet, the hundred miles there and the hundred miles back and the fifty or so
miles in and around the city in lower stress situations, the clutch worked
ok.

Could that be the fluid?
Or something else?

Given the fluid I put in will definitely be GL4 and 75W90 (as per Toyota
specs), would a synthetic matter for this issue?

Or do all transmissions do that?
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I had a nice stressless
vacation out on "Ontario's west coast"

I believe you have a hydraulic clutch. The clutch sticking to the
floor is a linkage problem, totally separeate from the treans fluid.
Have you ever flushed the hydraulics? If not might be a good idea.
Specified every 2 years - every 4 is pushing it. Many cars never have
it changed. Could have a master problem. Could have a slave problem -
could also have a release bearing collar issue (not related to the
hydraulic fluid)

When it was hard to get into first and second, did reverse work? If
the clutch is not completely disengaging or the pilot bearing is
hanging, it will be hard to shift, and it will "clash" going into
reverse.

On 8/19/2017 8:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didnt go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

€œAAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.€�


http://blog.jackcarterchev.ca/new-st...ns-car-owners/

Given news
A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didnÿt go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

´AAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.¡


http://blog.jackcarterchev.ca/new-st...ns-car-owners/

IMHO, motor oil is one thing, gear lube is another.

Worse - the GL rating (e.g., GL-4 or GL-5) isn't relevant to synchronized
transmissions.

I've come to the conclusion that all I know for sure is that Toyota
recommends 2.7 quarts of GL-4 or GL-5 75W90, and that's all that matters
since the rest seems to be marketing in that I can only find a single study
on the net that goes any deeper than that for transmissions.

In article , 83LowRider wrote:
On 8/19/2017 8:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didnt go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

€œAAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.€�

This is good but... what does "synthetic" mean? A lot of the oils sold as
"synthetic" in the US are not in fact made from synthetic base oils at all,
just very highly purified ones.

And as it is, conventional oils vary considerably in their protection, because
the additive packages vary so much.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sunday, August 27, 2017 at 11:07:52 AM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article , 83LowRider wrote:
On 8/19/2017 8:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didnt go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

€œAAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.€�

This is good but... what does "synthetic" mean? A lot of the oils sold as
"synthetic" in the US are not in fact made from synthetic base oils at all,
just very highly purified ones.

And as it is, conventional oils vary considerably in their protection, because
the additive packages vary so much.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

IDK how much they actually vary, assuming they meet the same API
standards. That sets a floor under how they perform. And typically
vehicle manufacturers use that to specify what oil can be used.
Though I think some years back some manufacturers started specifying a specific
brand. How much that's based on how they actually perform and
science versus marketing BS, IDK.

And then you have to wonder about auto manufacturers pushing the oil
change mileage and what's really behind it. BMW for example went to
15K many years back. More recently, they backed it down to 10K.
They also included free oil changes as part of their included services.
So, who was the 15K really benefitting? The engine and long term owner
or BMW not having to change the oil for free as many times?

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didn�t go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

�AAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.�


http://blog.jackcarterchev.ca/new-st...ns-car-owners/

IMHO, motor oil is one thing, gear lube is another.

I posted the link/info due to the conversation turning to
synthetics so frequently.

On 27 Aug 2017 11:07:45 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

In article , 83LowRider wrote:
On 8/19/2017 8:54 AM, Bram van den Heuvel wrote:

A study of automotive gear lubes
http://www.technilube.com/brochures/...hite_paper.pdf

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didnt go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

€œAAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.€?

This is good but... what does "synthetic" mean? A lot of the oils sold as
"synthetic" in the US are not in fact made from synthetic base oils at all,
just very highly purified ones.

And as it is, conventional oils vary considerably in their protection, because
the additive packages vary so much.
--scott
Don't know about the USA - but generally we get the same product in
Canada - and anything advertized as synthetic IS synthetic - but there
are several ways to synthesize a lubricant - including from
feed-stocks derived from petroleum - such as natural gas. If the
molecules are broken down into base components, and then blended and
reacted to produce a lubricating oil - the resulting oil IS synthetic
- whether the base feedstock is petroleum, natural gas, vegetable oil,
or any other source. There ARE specific types of "synthetics" that
some nerds and motorheads consider to be "more synthetic" than others.
- and some of them are NOT COMPATIBLE with some others, or with
petroleum based oils - which in MY books makes the "unsuitable" for
normal use - even if the "nerds" consider them superior.(Diesters vs
PolyEsters vs polyalphaolefin vs alkylated benzenes vs phosphate
esters,

Some are "group IV", some atr "group V" and some are "Group III" -
with the "Group III" being the most controvercial as they are 100%
petroleum sourced - with the feedstocks cracked from crude.

Many of the "nerds" consider only "Group IV" PAO oils to be "genuine
synthetic" - and PAO oils have long been implicated in seal shrinkage
and oil leakage.
Diester and Polyester based oils are generally unsuitable for
automotive and engine use -used in refrigeration oils, compressor
oils, some greases, and jet engine lubrication. They are also
implicated in seal incompatability.
Phosphate esrhers do not mix or get along well with petroleum oils and
are hard on most seals as well. Basically restricted to specific
hydraulic uses.
The poly-alkane Glycols also do not play well with othewrs -
particularly petroleum based lubricants,and are hard on seals and
finishes - used in hydraulics, compressors, refrigeration, and greases

"Generally" a GOOD synthetic oil for automotive use will be a
combination of several synthetics to produce the required
characteristics.

On 8/27/2017 5:30 PM, wrote:

Regarding synthetics in general --

"the AAA study didn't go light on the research and took a comprehensive
look into all the factors involved."

AAA found that synthetic oil outperformed conventional oil by an
average of nearly 50 percent in its independent evaluation, offering
vehicles significantly better engine protection for only $5 more per
month when following a factory-recommended oil change schedule.

Don't know about the USA - but generally we get the same product in
Canada - and anything advertized as synthetic IS synthetic - but there
are several ways to synthesize a lubricant - including from
feed-stocks derived from petroleum - such as natural gas. If the
molecules are broken down into base components, and then blended and
reacted to produce a lubricating oil - the resulting oil IS synthetic
- whether the base feedstock is petroleum, natural gas, vegetable oil,
or any other source. There ARE specific types of "synthetics" that
some nerds and motorheads consider to be "more synthetic" than others.
- and some of them are NOT COMPATIBLE with some others, or with
petroleum based oils - which in MY books makes the "unsuitable" for
normal use - even if the "nerds" consider them superior.(Diesters vs
PolyEsters vs polyalphaolefin vs alkylated benzenes vs phosphate
esters,

Some are "group IV", some atr "group V" and some are "Group III" -
with the "Group III" being the most controvercial as they are 100%
petroleum sourced - with the feedstocks cracked from crude.

Many of the "nerds" consider only "Group IV" PAO oils to be "genuine
synthetic" - and PAO oils have long been implicated in seal shrinkage
and oil leakage.
Diester and Polyester based oils are generally unsuitable for
automotive and engine use -used in refrigeration oils, compressor
oils, some greases, and jet engine lubrication. They are also
implicated in seal incompatability.
Phosphate esrhers do not mix or get along well with petroleum oils and
are hard on most seals as well. Basically restricted to specific
hydraulic uses.
The poly-alkane Glycols also do not play well with othewrs -
particularly petroleum based lubricants,and are hard on seals and
finishes - used in hydraulics, compressors, refrigeration, and greases

"Generally" a GOOD synthetic oil for automotive use will be a
combination of several synthetics to produce the required
characteristics.

Good info... thanks!

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 10:43:22 -0700, "fake vet Colon Edmund J. Burke"
wrote:

On 8/28/2017 10:39 AM, Miss Recktum ****ted:

So how do you like Wet Uranus, KKKoloon? 'Kay???
https://www.amazon.com/Wet-Lubes-Ura.../dp/B009GHE6AS

With your 200k Amazon shares (so jealous!) you should get a discount!



You should get a discount on rubbers, Miss Recktum. But it's not really necessary since you prefer "used condoms" anywho!
LOL

Your moulie tranny 'Pleasance' has to use three rubbers at a time on
you. Do you buy them wholesale?

LOLOK

--
Iudaei orbem terrarum infestant