"American Mechanical" wrote in message
. ..

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...

"bill allemann" wrote in message
m...
Poor installation makes them vibrate, noisy, and rust like crazy.
I'll
be
darned.

Actually..it can indeed.
Particularly the vibration and noise issue. There is ONE little thing
that
no installer seems to remember....and it can indeed cause them to
vibrate
like hell..

It's Curly's secret isn't it! :-o

- Robert

LOL...

Nah...is those pesky compressor mounting bolts that everyone seems to think
need to be tight as hell....wrong...
Turn them out 1.4 turn or more...be amazed at how nice and quiet and how
little vibration is transmitted..wonder if THATS why they are on rubber
feet??






"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"American Mechanical" wrote in message
m...

"bill allemann" wrote in
message
...
I very much agree on the Carrier observation. I had quite a
number
of
them in my rental units (a friend is a dealer), and they've been
a
big
maintenance problem, well, not any more,
most of them are gone by now. Short life span, cheap
materials,
corrosion,
vibration, noisy, etc, etc .. Never again.
Bill

Most likely due to poor installation and/or poor maintenance.
There
is
no
perfect brand but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if your problem
stretched
over several units that it was not a quality problem with the
unit.
A
quality installation can make even a cheapo Goodman last quite a
while
with
only minor problems. (i.e. Fan relays, contactors, capacitors, and
the
many
other low grade parts that Goodman uses.)


Ditto....

~kjpro~


- Robert



"Dave HVACowner" wrote: My personal
suggestion is that, you keep away from Carrier and Trane due
to
their
inflated prices to cover national advertising . Select a high
efficiency
Goodman . Its ranked number 2 in national residential hvac
sales
and
thier warranties are long. This is my opinion as an hvac owner
..
Dave

"bill allemann" wrote in message
m...
Poor installation makes them vibrate, noisy, and rust like crazy. I'll be
darned.

You would be surprised what a proper installation can do!

~kjpro~

"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"American Mechanical" wrote in message
m...

"bill allemann" wrote in message
...
I very much agree on the Carrier observation. I had quite a number
of
them in my rental units (a friend is a dealer), and they've been a
big
maintenance problem, well, not any more,
most of them are gone by now. Short life span, cheap materials,
corrosion,
vibration, noisy, etc, etc .. Never again.
Bill

Most likely due to poor installation and/or poor maintenance. There
is
no
perfect brand but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if your problem
stretched
over several units that it was not a quality problem with the unit. A
quality installation can make even a cheapo Goodman last quite a while
with
only minor problems. (i.e. Fan relays, contactors, capacitors, and the
many
other low grade parts that Goodman uses.)


Ditto....

~kjpro~


- Robert



"Dave HVACowner" wrote: My personal
suggestion is that, you keep away from Carrier and Trane due to
their
inflated prices to cover national advertising . Select a high
efficiency
Goodman . Its ranked number 2 in national residential hvac sales
and
thier warranties are long. This is my opinion as an hvac owner .
Dave

"bill allemann" wrote in message
m...
Poor installation makes them vibrate, noisy, and rust like crazy. I'll be
darned.

You would be surprised what a proper installation can do!

~kjpro~

"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"American Mechanical" wrote in message
m...

"bill allemann" wrote in message
...
I very much agree on the Carrier observation. I had quite a number
of
them in my rental units (a friend is a dealer), and they've been a
big
maintenance problem, well, not any more,
most of them are gone by now. Short life span, cheap materials,
corrosion,
vibration, noisy, etc, etc .. Never again.
Bill

Most likely due to poor installation and/or poor maintenance. There
is
no
perfect brand but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if your problem
stretched
over several units that it was not a quality problem with the unit. A
quality installation can make even a cheapo Goodman last quite a while
with
only minor problems. (i.e. Fan relays, contactors, capacitors, and the
many
other low grade parts that Goodman uses.)


Ditto....

~kjpro~


- Robert



"Dave HVACowner" wrote: My personal
suggestion is that, you keep away from Carrier and Trane due to
their
inflated prices to cover national advertising . Select a high
efficiency
Goodman . Its ranked number 2 in national residential hvac sales
and
thier warranties are long. This is my opinion as an hvac owner .
Dave

"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"bill allemann" wrote in message
m...
Poor installation makes them vibrate, noisy, and rust like crazy. I'll
be
darned.

You would be surprised what a proper installation can do!

~kjpro~

Yup...and damn..I almost forgot to address the rust issue..

Altho...SOME are more prone to rust than others...Goodman for
example....ThermoPrides...Lennox..
Trane, York, and Carrier seem to have pretty good cabinets, and of
course...York passes the salt tests down here at the coast with flying
colors and surpasses them all....but its all in the initial out of the box
quality of the unit...


"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"American Mechanical" wrote in message
m...

"bill allemann" wrote in
message
...
I very much agree on the Carrier observation. I had quite a
number
of
them in my rental units (a friend is a dealer), and they've been a
big
maintenance problem, well, not any more,
most of them are gone by now. Short life span, cheap materials,
corrosion,
vibration, noisy, etc, etc .. Never again.
Bill

Most likely due to poor installation and/or poor maintenance. There
is
no
perfect brand but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if your problem
stretched
over several units that it was not a quality problem with the unit.
A
quality installation can make even a cheapo Goodman last quite a
while
with
only minor problems. (i.e. Fan relays, contactors, capacitors, and
the
many
other low grade parts that Goodman uses.)


Ditto....

~kjpro~


- Robert



"Dave HVACowner" wrote: My personal
suggestion is that, you keep away from Carrier and Trane due to
their
inflated prices to cover national advertising . Select a high
efficiency
Goodman . Its ranked number 2 in national residential hvac sales
and
thier warranties are long. This is my opinion as an hvac owner .
Dave

"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"bill allemann" wrote in message
m...
Poor installation makes them vibrate, noisy, and rust like crazy. I'll
be
darned.

You would be surprised what a proper installation can do!

~kjpro~

Yup...and damn..I almost forgot to address the rust issue..

Altho...SOME are more prone to rust than others...Goodman for
example....ThermoPrides...Lennox..
Trane, York, and Carrier seem to have pretty good cabinets, and of
course...York passes the salt tests down here at the coast with flying
colors and surpasses them all....but its all in the initial out of the box
quality of the unit...


"~KJPRO~" wrote in message
...
"American Mechanical" wrote in message
m...

"bill allemann" wrote in
message
...
I very much agree on the Carrier observation. I had quite a
number
of
them in my rental units (a friend is a dealer), and they've been a
big
maintenance problem, well, not any more,
most of them are gone by now. Short life span, cheap materials,
corrosion,
vibration, noisy, etc, etc .. Never again.
Bill

Most likely due to poor installation and/or poor maintenance. There
is
no
perfect brand but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if your problem
stretched
over several units that it was not a quality problem with the unit.
A
quality installation can make even a cheapo Goodman last quite a
while
with
only minor problems. (i.e. Fan relays, contactors, capacitors, and
the
many
other low grade parts that Goodman uses.)


Ditto....

~kjpro~


- Robert



"Dave HVACowner" wrote: My personal
suggestion is that, you keep away from Carrier and Trane due to
their
inflated prices to cover national advertising . Select a high
efficiency
Goodman . Its ranked number 2 in national residential hvac sales
and
thier warranties are long. This is my opinion as an hvac owner .
Dave

"~KJPRO~" wrote:

"Ace AC and Heating" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:45:51 -0600, "Howie" wrote:

I am shopping around for a central air conditioner that will be installed
in
our 850 sq. ft home... any advice?

Howie


The rule of thumb is you use a 2 ton system for your size home.

Ace

Hey, John.........just looky here.......a HACK showed up already!!

This is the type of contractor you should run from, FAST!!

~kjpro~

BTW Manuel J & D................PERIOD!!

I'm taking the "rule of thumb" to be "Install what the manual J&D says".

"~KJPRO~" wrote:

"Ace AC and Heating" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:45:51 -0600, "Howie" wrote:

I am shopping around for a central air conditioner that will be installed
in
our 850 sq. ft home... any advice?

Howie


The rule of thumb is you use a 2 ton system for your size home.

Ace

Hey, John.........just looky here.......a HACK showed up already!!

This is the type of contractor you should run from, FAST!!

~kjpro~

BTW Manuel J & D................PERIOD!!

I'm taking the "rule of thumb" to be "Install what the manual J&D says".

'Yea Be like Dave, Dont look into Inflated prices on Carrier Variable
speed DC motors on the air handler that will increase seer by 1 seer or
can use a humidistat- thermostat that can run on humidistat and remove
twice the amount of water a regular unit will. Or will save on your
electric bill even in winter. Or that can have fan speed programed at
the thermostat.
=A0=A0=A0=A0Thats what im getting in a week , Carrier. Because no other
can do all that as cheaply. It comes down to comfort.'

ME: Yep...they got you duped. Have you calculated your payback period
for all the additional monies youre spending on that technology ???
Most people wouldnt stay in a house that long !! Plus...when you do
need 'a genuine Carrier replacement part' thats out of warranty....be
sure and obtain a second job to pay for it., cause, they zing the
contractor which means the HO will get zinged even greater.

_____________________________________________

Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?

_____________________________________________

'Yea Be like Dave, Dont look into Inflated prices on Carrier Variable
speed DC motors on the air handler that will increase seer by 1 seer or
can use a humidistat- thermostat that can run on humidistat and remove
twice the amount of water a regular unit will. Or will save on your
electric bill even in winter. Or that can have fan speed programed at
the thermostat.
=A0=A0=A0=A0Thats what im getting in a week , Carrier. Because no other
can do all that as cheaply. It comes down to comfort.'

ME: Yep...they got you duped. Have you calculated your payback period
for all the additional monies youre spending on that technology ???
Most people wouldnt stay in a house that long !! Plus...when you do
need 'a genuine Carrier replacement part' thats out of warranty....be
sure and obtain a second job to pay for it., cause, they zing the
contractor which means the HO will get zinged even greater.

_____________________________________________

Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?

_____________________________________________

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Yea Be like Dave, Dont look into Inflated prices on Carrier Variable
speed DC motors on the air handler that will increase seer by 1 seer or
can use a humidistat- thermostat that can run on humidistat and remove
twice the amount of water a regular unit will. Or will save on your
electric bill even in winter. Or that can have fan speed programed at
the thermostat.
Thats what im getting in a week , Carrier. Because no other
can do all that as cheaply. It comes down to comfort.'

ME: Yep...they got you duped. Have you calculated your payback period
for all the additional monies youre spending on that technology ???
Most people wouldnt stay in a house that long !! Plus...when you do
need 'a genuine Carrier replacement part' thats out of warranty....be
sure and obtain a second job to pay for it., cause, they zing the
contractor which means the HO will get zinged even greater.

_____________________________________________

Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?

_____________________________________________


Hey....Dave....

I worked out a deal today....brand name units, at Goodman prices...

Guess you are really get **** on at the supply house EH????

Oh..and Davey....your supply of 10SEER Goodmans is about to run out...enjoy
it while you can...since part of the idea with the 13SEER min, is not only
to get energy standards on up there, but to make you either learn it, or get
out.
I stopped installing 10SEER a while back.....you?

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Yea Be like Dave, Dont look into Inflated prices on Carrier Variable
speed DC motors on the air handler that will increase seer by 1 seer or
can use a humidistat- thermostat that can run on humidistat and remove
twice the amount of water a regular unit will. Or will save on your
electric bill even in winter. Or that can have fan speed programed at
the thermostat.
Thats what im getting in a week , Carrier. Because no other
can do all that as cheaply. It comes down to comfort.'

ME: Yep...they got you duped. Have you calculated your payback period
for all the additional monies youre spending on that technology ???
Most people wouldnt stay in a house that long !! Plus...when you do
need 'a genuine Carrier replacement part' thats out of warranty....be
sure and obtain a second job to pay for it., cause, they zing the
contractor which means the HO will get zinged even greater.

_____________________________________________

Have you hugged your A/C Tech today ?

_____________________________________________


Hey....Dave....

I worked out a deal today....brand name units, at Goodman prices...

Guess you are really get **** on at the supply house EH????

Oh..and Davey....your supply of 10SEER Goodmans is about to run out...enjoy
it while you can...since part of the idea with the 13SEER min, is not only
to get energy standards on up there, but to make you either learn it, or get
out.
I stopped installing 10SEER a while back.....you?

Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for 30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want this done
right!!

Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the most
important things in terms of proper installation.

Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of this.

Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J, and D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly, as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

Hi Ace, hope you are having a nice day

On 15-Jun-04 At About 14:19:16, Ace AC and Heating wrote to All
Subject: buying/installing new central air conditioning...CBHVAC et. all

AAaH From: Ace AC and Heating

AAaH Are there any homes in your area that are similar to yours?

AAaH Built by the same builder?

AAaH What I'm getting at is that after 30 years of installing/repairing
AAaH hvac in an area with thousands of identical homes, it is a waste
AAaH of time and the customers money to do a manual J/D. That 30 year
AAaH guy has done hundreds of installs and knows dead on what you need.

Another HACK!! heard from.


-= HvacTech2 =-


... "I used to be a bartender... at the Betty Ford clinic." - s.w.

___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail

Are there any homes in your area that are similar to yours?

Built by the same builder?

What I'm getting at is that after 30 years of installing/repairing
hvac in an area with thousands of identical homes, it is a waste of
time and the customers money to do a manual J/D. That 30 year guy
has done hundreds of installs and knows dead on what you need.

However, if you are a fool who wants to part with your money, then go
ahead. It is your money.

And don't believe that crap about crediting the cost of the manual J
to the install. All that means is the crook that suggests it, is
overpriced and lying thru his teeth to get your business. Find an
honest installer instead.

Ace



On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:42:08 -0400, "KJ1" wrote:


Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for 30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want this done
right!!

Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the most
important things in terms of proper installation.

Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of this.

Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J, and D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly, as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

"KJ1" wrote in message
...

Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for 30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

30 years..BAH.
So?
He obviously has seen the new manual J, and hasnt a clue.


Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want this
done
right!!

Then you need to demand a manual J, and D.
Thats not slang, thats what its called.


Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't
whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the most
important things in terms of proper installation.

This is very simple.
No J, No D, no job.

Let me ask you something. Do you own a car? Ok..sure you do. Would you buy a
car that did not fit your needs? IF you own horses, would you buy a Hyundai
for pulling your 5th wheel horse trailer? Of course not....dont let some
pushy cheap ass ******* come in and tell you that you are GOING to buy this,
without knowing the homes needs first.


Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of
this.

You have discovered what so many have....they want the easy way to get your
money.
Make the *******s work for it.


Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J, and
D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly, as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

"Ace AC and Heating" wrote in message
...

Are there any homes in your area that are similar to yours?

Built by the same builder?

What I'm getting at is that after 30 years of installing/repairing
hvac in an area with thousands of identical homes, it is a waste of
time and the customers money to do a manual J/D. That 30 year guy
has done hundreds of installs and knows dead on what you need.

However, if you are a fool who wants to part with your money, then go
ahead. It is your money.

And don't believe that crap about crediting the cost of the manual J
to the install. All that means is the crook that suggests it, is
overpriced and lying thru his teeth to get your business. Find an
honest installer instead.


Bull**** asshole. Another hack trying to get excited..



Ace



On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:42:08 -0400, "KJ1" wrote:


Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for 30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want this
done
right!!

Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't
whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the
most
important things in terms of proper installation.

Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of
this.

Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J,
and D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly, as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

For Ace THE Hack, and Kj1 I live in zone 5 chgo area -20 to 100, I
superinsulated the house, under siding r 14.4 foamboard r 100
attic, basement walls, new windows and am in total shade 1250sq upper
and 625 sq ft basement with returns and supplies , My installer did
NO calc put in a 2 ton and I cant get the humidity below 60 - 65 .
Yea thats B.S. , It s clammy So I have purchased a 65 pt and a 50
pt sears dehumidifier to make up for my Oversized AC " We Don need no
Stinkin Lisence" From that Bogart movie High Sierra ? Well i can
hear it now
Yu don neen no stinken kal- q- la- shun.

Do what you want, but if you have upgraded or will upgrade insulation
or windows or doors or trees have grown big or have 10 kids your
load is unique and only a hack will say otherwise.

Years ago at a different location we had spacepack installed , several
installers wanted 2 units up to 7 ton. We went with the guy with the
most neighboorhood experiance and a 4 ton. He gve a written warranty
of a 30 degree drop. well when it reached 114 we were 73 , And he
did a load calc and is employing maybe 50 people. The other hacks I
never see around.

That spacepack was so well installed and sized I measered by
filling and timimg the fills of 5 gallon buckets that my Lennox-
Spacepack pulled 225 Gallons a day for 2 days verified out of the
house. And humidity can be from 46 - 52 % normally.. Thats what A
load calc and quality Company get you . Comfort. And no It doesnt
break after 12 yrs

Hi Ace,

There are 3 other houses built at the same time as mine, one of them has the
same design. But NONE of us have A/C, I will probably be be the first who
gets it.

God bless,
KJ


"Ace AC and Heating" wrote in message
...

Are there any homes in your area that are similar to yours?

Built by the same builder?

What I'm getting at is that after 30 years of installing/repairing
hvac in an area with thousands of identical homes, it is a waste of
time and the customers money to do a manual J/D. That 30 year guy
has done hundreds of installs and knows dead on what you need.

However, if you are a fool who wants to part with your money, then go
ahead. It is your money.

And don't believe that crap about crediting the cost of the manual J
to the install. All that means is the crook that suggests it, is
overpriced and lying thru his teeth to get your business. Find an
honest installer instead.

Ace



On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:42:08 -0400, "KJ1" wrote:


Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for 30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want this
done
right!!

Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't
whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the
most
important things in terms of proper installation.

Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of
this.

Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J,
and D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly, as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

Hi CBHVAC,

Thanks for the reply.

I wasn't referring to the J and D manual as slang. In gerneral some of the
replies I was reading to others, some of them were worded in such a way, a
non-installer/HVAC person wouldn't understand. But J and D manual, I do
understand that this is what must be used to calc what is proper for any
particular home.

I will demand a manual J and D. Thanks for the inf. I just needed to know
my demand was reasonable, so if one of these guys tries to blow me off
(like the second one did) I can be confident that he has the problem and not
me, thanks.

I can be quite demanding and thorough without blinking, as long as I know I
am right. Now that I do, I am going to make certain this is done, if not,
like you said "no J, no D, no job".

Thank you again so much, now I can approach these guys with much more
confidence and knowledget and be happy with my choice, knowing that it is
done correctly.

Two more things:

(1) Should I be asking for a copy of this document (J and D manual
calc) just to make sure? Not that I would know all of what it is saying,
but in general, to look it over, that they did their job with the measuring
and all? In other words, is it reasonable for a costomer to ask for this
documentation? I am concerned that if I do, they will be like "we don't
want others to see or use it or whatever"?

(2) Is there a fee? I thought I saw one one of these posts that the
calc should not be additional in charge. Please clear that on one up for
me.

Thanks again in advance.

God bless,
KJ

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...

"KJ1" wrote in message
...

Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in
any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for
30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

30 years..BAH.
So?
He obviously has seen the new manual J, and hasnt a clue.


Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want this
done
right!!

Then you need to demand a manual J, and D.
Thats not slang, thats what its called.


Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and
see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't
whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to
approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the
most
important things in terms of proper installation.

This is very simple.
No J, No D, no job.

Let me ask you something. Do you own a car? Ok..sure you do. Would you buy
a
car that did not fit your needs? IF you own horses, would you buy a
Hyundai
for pulling your 5th wheel horse trailer? Of course not....dont let some
pushy cheap ass ******* come in and tell you that you are GOING to buy
this,
without knowing the homes needs first.


Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in
any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of
this.

You have discovered what so many have....they want the easy way to get
your
money.
Make the *******s work for it.


Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J,
and
D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly, as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

Hi m Ransley,

Thanks for the relply.

Your experience is telling me I am right in taking my time on this one.

God bless,
KJ


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
For Ace THE Hack, and Kj1 I live in zone 5 chgo area -20 to 100, I
superinsulated the house, under siding r 14.4 foamboard r 100
attic, basement walls, new windows and am in total shade 1250sq upper
and 625 sq ft basement with returns and supplies , My installer did
NO calc put in a 2 ton and I cant get the humidity below 60 - 65 .
Yea thats B.S. , It s clammy So I have purchased a 65 pt and a 50
pt sears dehumidifier to make up for my Oversized AC " We Don need no
Stinkin Lisence" From that Bogart movie High Sierra ? Well i can
hear it now
Yu don neen no stinken kal- q- la- shun.

Do what you want, but if you have upgraded or will upgrade insulation
or windows or doors or trees have grown big or have 10 kids your
load is unique and only a hack will say otherwise.

Years ago at a different location we had spacepack installed , several
installers wanted 2 units up to 7 ton. We went with the guy with the
most neighboorhood experiance and a 4 ton. He gve a written warranty
of a 30 degree drop. well when it reached 114 we were 73 , And he
did a load calc and is employing maybe 50 people. The other hacks I
never see around.

That spacepack was so well installed and sized I measered by
filling and timimg the fills of 5 gallon buckets that my Lennox-
Spacepack pulled 225 Gallons a day for 2 days verified out of the
house. And humidity can be from 46 - 52 % normally.. Thats what A
load calc and quality Company get you . Comfort. And no It doesnt
break after 12 yrs

m Ransley wrote:

...I superinsulated the house, under siding r 14.4 foamboard
r 100 attic, basement walls, new windows and am in total shade
1250sq upper and 625 sq ft basement with returns and supplies...

Ever had a blower-door test?

...put in a 2 ton and I cant get the humidity below 60 - 65 .
So I have purchased a 65 pt and a 50 pt sears dehumidifier to make
up for my Oversized AC

Dehumidifiers add heat to houses. You might better turn them off
and stop cleaning the AC filters, so they can dehumidify better.

Nick

"KJ1" wrote:

Two more things:

(1) Should I be asking for a copy of this document (J and D manual
calc) just to make sure? Not that I would know all of what it is saying,
but in general, to look it over, that they did their job with the measuring
and all? In other words, is it reasonable for a costomer to ask for this
documentation? I am concerned that if I do, they will be like "we don't
want others to see or use it or whatever"?

I'd say yes. Along with a copy of the warranty, owners manual, etc.

(2) Is there a fee? I thought I saw one one of these posts that the
calc should not be additional in charge. Please clear that on one up for
me.

The best idea I've heard is a modest, few hundred dollar fee paid up
front, which is applied to the eventual purchase. The calculations take
at least a few hours work, it is unrealistic to expect it for "free",
but should be small part of the larger overall package.

I'm just a homeowner, in the same boat as you, so this is just IMHO.

Gee nickspam should i throw dirt on my AC filter , Great idea , Bozo

Yes I had a blower door test , All my equipment is several years old
and no my filter aint dirty, I need the dehumidifier heat, if you read
my post thoroughy you would understand im oversized, superinsulated and
in shade. Ex my monthly gas to heat cook , laundry and shower is now
not more than 60 $ Thats for 1875 It used to be 170$ Plus I just
dug out a 600 sq ft basement and heat it. My New installer for an
Infinity gave me a load calc of 50000 Btu. My old [ 2 yr ] 2 stage
47000 - 77000 btu never ran more than 8 hrs at -12f on low fire. I
need the VS with humidisat. And an Air exchanger.

m Ransley wrote:

Yes I had a blower door test...

And what was the result? How many air changes per hour at 50 PA?

All my equipment is several years old and no my filter aint dirty...

Perhaps it should be.

I need the dehumidifier heat...

Probably not, in Chicago, in summertime. Does your house have any
water leaks? Are you getting lots of water vapor via the basement?

Nick

On 16 Jun 2004 14:18:29 -0400, wrote:

m Ransley wrote:

Yes I had a blower door test...

And what was the result? How many air changes per hour at 50 PA?

All my equipment is several years old and no my filter aint dirty...

Perhaps it should be.

I need the dehumidifier heat...

Probably not, in Chicago, in summertime. Does your house have any
water leaks? Are you getting lots of water vapor via the basement?

Nick

I agree. His unit was poorly designed. He should have done a manual
J.

Ace

To the best of my knowledge, this stuff has been incorporated into computer
programs by the manufacturers and subsequently supplied to the dealers.


"John Hines" wrote in message
...
"KJ1" wrote:

Two more things:

(1) Should I be asking for a copy of this document (J and D manual
calc) just to make sure? Not that I would know all of what it is saying,
but in general, to look it over, that they did their job with the
measuring
and all? In other words, is it reasonable for a costomer to ask for this
documentation? I am concerned that if I do, they will be like "we don't
want others to see or use it or whatever"?

I'd say yes. Along with a copy of the warranty, owners manual, etc.

(2) Is there a fee? I thought I saw one one of these posts that the
calc should not be additional in charge. Please clear that on one up
for
me.

The best idea I've heard is a modest, few hundred dollar fee paid up
front, which is applied to the eventual purchase. The calculations take
at least a few hours work, it is unrealistic to expect it for "free",
but should be small part of the larger overall package.

I'm just a homeowner, in the same boat as you, so this is just IMHO.

Look who has a under 70$ gas bill for 1875 sq ft at -10 f , I cook
gas and have gas dryer and water heater. the year before it was maybe
40 for a high. I designed a super insulated house that only needs a ton
, so it runs longer. No leaks , it just cools real fast and holds it.
A VS motor with humidistat and blower on low will help alot. Since my
compressor is relativly new and is a 14 seer Lennox Im not replacing it
But the extra dehumidifier has done 90% of what I want. With new
construction or certain rehabs people can really build for
efficiency,

Gov standards for R values are truely minimums so you dont go broke
paying the utility co before the bank.

"Lurker" wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, this stuff has been incorporated into computer
programs by the manufacturers and subsequently supplied to the dealers.

I'd certainly rather have dated and signed hardcopy, in the event it
ever makes it to court.

Makes it easier to hand over to the next owner, giving him a file folder
with all the info in it.

m Ransley wrote:

...I designed a super insulated house that only needs a ton
, so it runs longer. No leaks...

How many ach or cfm at 50 Pa did you measure with your blower door test?

...the extra dehumidifier has done 90% of what I want...

Heating the house in summertime? :-)

Something is wrong here. Do your basement floor and walls have vapor barriers?

Nick

Whats wrong Nicksanspam.
Foam underconcrete basement floor , Drain tile system , new , never
need it . The walls even basement are R14.4 Foamboard. Its actualy
better insulated then 4" sips and attic is equal to 10 - 11 inch sips.
Read up on sips construction and you will see why a air exchanger is
mandatory. Air exchanges I dont know where my sheet is. , But I used
to use a humidifier in winter, now I dont need one. I think i made it
a bit too tight.

m Ransley wrote:

Whats wrong Nicksanspam.

Too many air leaks?

How many cfm did you measure at 50 Pa during the blower door test?

If you can only maintain 60% RH at say 75 F with a 1 ton AC in Chicago
in July, with an average daily max temp of 83.7 F and an average humidity
ratio wo = 0.0123 pounds of water per pound of dry air, you might be
removing 12K Btu/h of latent heat, ie 12 pounds per hour of water (with
your heat-producing dehumidifiers turned off) with indoor vapor pressure
Pi = 0.6 e^(17.863-9621/(460+75) = 0.532 "Hg and wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1)
= 0.01126, so 60C0.075(wo-wi) = 12 and C = 2565 cfm, like 2 A ft^2 open
windows with an 8' height difference, where A = 12 ft^2, eg a couple of
3'x4' open windows. Seems to me have serious air infiltration problems.

Nick

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...

Oh..and Davey....your supply of 10SEER Goodmans is about to run
out...enjoy
it while you can...since part of the idea with the 13SEER min, is not
only
to get energy standards on up there, but to make you either learn it, or
get
out.
I stopped installing 10SEER a while back.....you?


I just picked up a new luxaire 3-1/2 ton package unit heat pump for the
shop, 10 seer for $750 off ebay--we might not even still be in that
building
a year from now.....but dangit man--I did need *something* to keep my beer
cold !!!


You did ok...you got a York, with a grey case and a new badge..
Price aint bad, but I would be worried personally where it came from...
Seriously.
If you want, I can run the numbers for you on UPGnet and mail them to you if
you email the serial and model numbers.


Spank me while you got the chance....G

Disposable units basically....still, I cant help but wonder how much Davey
would have charged to procure and "install" a similar unit for me.......

If its a NEW one, its not...its a rebadged Champion..Real nice stuff.


--

SVL

"KJ1" wrote in message
...
Hi CBHVAC,

Thanks for the reply.

NP..


I wasn't referring to the J and D manual as slang. In gerneral some of
the
replies I was reading to others, some of them were worded in such a way, a
non-installer/HVAC person wouldn't understand. But J and D manual, I do
understand that this is what must be used to calc what is proper for any
particular home.

And if its a heat pump, manual T, instead of J.
D still applies.


I will demand a manual J and D. Thanks for the inf. I just needed to
know
my demand was reasonable, so if one of these guys tries to blow me off
(like the second one did) I can be confident that he has the problem and
not
me, thanks.


Bingo.

I can be quite demanding and thorough without blinking, as long as I know
I
am right. Now that I do, I am going to make certain this is done, if not,
like you said "no J, no D, no job".

You forgot one thing...

Get out.

LOL



Thank you again so much, now I can approach these guys with much more
confidence and knowledget and be happy with my choice, knowing that it is
done correctly.

Two more things:

(1) Should I be asking for a copy of this document (J and D manual
calc) just to make sure? Not that I would know all of what it is saying,
but in general, to look it over, that they did their job with the
measuring
and all? In other words, is it reasonable for a costomer to ask for this
documentation? I am concerned that if I do, they will be like "we don't
want others to see or use it or whatever"?


IF, and thats IF they used a computer program, it will be clear as to what
it says, if its the long form, hand, its gonna be clear too...read the last
few lines on either and it will tell you total BTUs in heating, and cooling
needed. The colling side will be the actual load, and the heating side will
be the BTUs needed to properly heat the home under the condtions they
applied for your particular situation.
Remember, 12,000 BTUs, equals one ton, so a 3 ton unit will be 36,000....and
there are NO 4.5 ton or 5.5 tone res units.
Getting a copy? Yes...and no. Depends on the contractor, and if hes the only
one doing them. See below on #2.


(2) Is there a fee? I thought I saw one one of these posts that the
calc should not be additional in charge. Please clear that on one up for
me.

I charge a fee..its not high. ITs about $120 for total time and such. IF,
and thats IF I get the job, you get a copy. If I dont think I stand a chance
after meeting with you with the quotes, I dont do the homework for the other
guy.
You still pay. IF, I get the job, the 120 is credited towards the new unit.
No sense in you paying twice.


Thanks again in advance.

God bless,
KJ

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...

"KJ1" wrote in message
...

Hi there,

Both my contractors took measurements around the furnace, but none in
any
rooms. One "mentioned" manual J, but said he had been 'doing this for
30
years, so he knew what he was doing.

30 years..BAH.
So?
He obviously has seen the new manual J, and hasnt a clue.


Well, now please people, no shop-slang here!!!! I am new and want
this
done
right!!

Then you need to demand a manual J, and D.
Thats not slang, thats what its called.


Should I be ASKING/TELLING/DEMANDING they perform a J manual calc and
see
them measuring each room, et. or should I just drop them if they don't
whip
out measuring tape and start calculating? I need to know how to
approach
this J manual and D or T calc. so I am not missing something very
important. From what you all are saying, this seems to be one of the
most
important things in terms of proper installation.

This is very simple.
No J, No D, no job.

Let me ask you something. Do you own a car? Ok..sure you do. Would you
buy
a
car that did not fit your needs? IF you own horses, would you buy a
Hyundai
for pulling your 5th wheel horse trailer? Of course not....dont let some
pushy cheap ass ******* come in and tell you that you are GOING to buy
this,
without knowing the homes needs first.


Me being a female, alone when doing this and totally inexperienced in
any
form of HVAC, I would like to know what should be expected in terms of
this.

You have discovered what so many have....they want the easy way to get
your
money.
Make the *******s work for it.


Thank you for all advice.

God bless,
KJ

Verify licence, and insurance.
"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...



Google. This gets asked 200 times a month it seems.

Bottom line, make it easy for you:

The installer, not the brand, makes the difference.

Do not let anyone install the unit that does not perform a manual J,
and
D
or T (heat pump calc) on your home to insure it is sized correctly,
as
there
ARE NO RULES OF THUMB in this trade.

Verify licence, and insurance.

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote in message
...

Oh..and Davey....your supply of 10SEER Goodmans is about to run
out...enjoy
it while you can...since part of the idea with the 13SEER min, is not
only
to get energy standards on up there, but to make you either learn it,
or
get
out.
I stopped installing 10SEER a while back.....you?


I just picked up a new luxaire 3-1/2 ton package unit heat pump for the
shop, 10 seer for $750 off ebay--we might not even still be in that
building
a year from now.....but dangit man--I did need *something* to keep my
beer
cold !!!


You did ok...you got a York, with a grey case and a new badge..
Price aint bad, but I would be worried personally where it came from...
Seriously.
If you want, I can run the numbers for you on UPGnet and mail them to you
if
you email the serial and model numbers.


Thanks, I might take you up on that, sposed to pick it up this weekend.


Spank me while you got the chance....G


Man your _too_ cruel, I was *really* looking forward to that
spankin..........


Disposable units basically....still, I cant help but wonder how much
Davey
would have charged to procure and "install" a similar unit for
me.......

If its a NEW one, its not...its a rebadged Champion..Real nice stuff.


I gotta look at it, its a year 2000 model--seller claims it has factory
charge and the high and low pressure safetys are pre-installed...

If there aint no heat strips in it, I will see about maybe moving about
7.5kw of em over from that dead bard unit--also, I am assuming it will have
defrost controls, pretty sure they all *should* when shipped to our area, at
least.....

And so we are back to square one here, with the compressor replacement cost
on the old Bard unit understandably being higher than you can procure a new
unit, if one is to shop carefully....and hence my comment about "disposable
units"....Hopefully the Luxaire will last longer than that Bard did.....

And thanks for getting back to me on this....much appreciated--and now that
water source unit I can play around with, heat the pool / cool the house,
like I had planned all along as option "B"....

Cheers,

--

SVL

CBHVAC same @as.it.was.com wrote:

Remember, 12,000 BTUs, equals one ton...

That would be Btu per hour.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people
become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level,
as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after
solution will appear.
Tom Smith, 1980

wrote in message
...
CBHVAC same @as.it.was.com wrote:

Remember, 12,000 BTUs, equals one ton...

That would be Btu per hour.


True, but if hes looking at the bottom figures, normally, there will be one
like 37500, or something like that...so that gives him an idea of why the
sizing is the way it is...
The more he understands on the paper he has never seen, the better he is
prepared to ask the right questions..
Just trying to keep it simple.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people
become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level,
as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after
solution will appear.
Tom Smith, 1980

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in
the end.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
...
CBHVAC same @as.it.was.com wrote:

Remember, 12,000 BTUs, equals one ton...

That would be Btu per hour.

Nick

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in
the end.

Indeed it does, in typical HVAC fuzzy thinking, but
Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Nick

wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in
the end.

Indeed it does, in typical HVAC fuzzy thinking, but
Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Nick

???

Tons are power? Power being measured in watts, I don't believe this holds
water. :-)

A ton of refrigerating effect is equal to the amount of heat that is added
to one ton of 32 deg F ice in order to convert it to 32 deg F water in a 24
hour time period. The latent heat of fusion for water(ice) is 144 BTU per
pound and there are 2000 pounds in a ton therefore you must add 288,000 BTU
within a 24 hour period to melt the ice. 288,000 BTU divided by 24 hours is
12,000 BTU that must be added per hour in order to melt the ton of ice.

So, 12,000 BTUH is considered one ton of refrigerating effect.

See, nothing fuzzy about that is there? Unless of course I'm wrong which
has been known to happen. :-)

- Robert

American Mechanical wrote:
wrote in message
...

Stormin Mormon wrote:


BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in
the end.

Indeed it does, in typical HVAC fuzzy thinking, but
Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Nick


???

Tons are power? Power being measured in watts, I don't believe this holds
water. :-)

A ton of refrigerating effect is equal to the amount of heat that is added
to one ton of 32 deg F ice in order to convert it to 32 deg F water in a 24
hour time period. The latent heat of fusion for water(ice) is 144 BTU per
pound and there are 2000 pounds in a ton therefore you must add 288,000 BTU
within a 24 hour period to melt the ice. 288,000 BTU divided by 24 hours is
12,000 BTU that must be added per hour in order to melt the ton of ice.

So, 12,000 BTUH is considered one ton of refrigerating effect.

See, nothing fuzzy about that is there?

Yes, quite fuzzy how BTU suddenly became BTUH

hvacrmedic

Unless of course I'm wrong which
has been known to happen. :-)

- Robert