American Mechanical wrote:

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in the end.

(A "ton per day" would be 12,000 Btu per hour _per hour_ :-)

Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Tons are power?

Right 12K Btu PER HOUR is equivalent to 3.5 kW.

Power being measured in watts, I don't believe this holds water. :-)

Saying "Btu PER HOUR" instead of the "Btu" HVAC jargon would remind us
that a Btu is a quantity of heat energy and a Btu per hour is a measure
of power, ie a rate of energy flow. It would also avoid rational but
confusing questions like "You say this is a 6000 Btu air conditioner.
What do I do when the 6000 Btus run out? Buy another?" :-)

A ton of refrigerating effect is equal to the amount of heat that is added
to one ton of 32 deg F ice in order to convert it to 32 deg F water in a 24
hour time period. The latent heat of fusion for water(ice) is 144 BTU per
pound and there are 2000 pounds in a ton therefore you must add 288,000 BTU
within a 24 hour period to melt the ice. 288,000 BTU divided by 24 hours is
12,000 BTU that must be added per hour in order to melt the ton of ice.

Righto.

So, 12,000 BTUH is considered one ton of refrigerating effect.

Nice that you added an H this time. Writing Btu/H is even clearer, or p,
if you like, as in mph or mpg. Watt-hours (Wh) or kilowatt-hours (kWh)
have meaning as units of energy, but a BTUH is meaningless in the context
of physics.

Nick

wrote in message
...
American Mechanical wrote:

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in the end.

(A "ton per day" would be 12,000 Btu per hour _per hour_ :-)

Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Tons are power?

Right 12K Btu PER HOUR is equivalent to 3.5 kW.

Then of course there's the COP to factor in. ;-)


Power being measured in watts, I don't believe this holds water. :-)

Saying "Btu PER HOUR" instead of the "Btu" HVAC jargon would remind us
that a Btu is a quantity of heat energy and a Btu per hour is a measure
of power, ie a rate of energy flow. It would also avoid rational but
confusing questions like "You say this is a 6000 Btu air conditioner.
What do I do when the 6000 Btus run out? Buy another?" :-)

If I had stock in the window air conditioner industry the answer would be
YES!


A ton of refrigerating effect is equal to the amount of heat that is
added
to one ton of 32 deg F ice in order to convert it to 32 deg F water in a
24
hour time period. The latent heat of fusion for water(ice) is 144 BTU
per
pound and there are 2000 pounds in a ton therefore you must add 288,000
BTU
within a 24 hour period to melt the ice. 288,000 BTU divided by 24 hours
is
12,000 BTU that must be added per hour in order to melt the ton of ice.

Righto.

So, 12,000 BTUH is considered one ton of refrigerating effect.

Nice that you added an H this time. Writing Btu/H is even clearer, or p,
if you like, as in mph or mpg. Watt-hours (Wh) or kilowatt-hours (kWh)
have meaning as units of energy, but a BTUH is meaningless in the context
of physics.

Nick

I added the H everywhere in the post that it applied. Maybe we could change
the ton to be more commonly referred to as the 288,000 BTU per day unit. :-D
Of course then one might have the question as to the day being 8 hours, 12
hours, or all 24........ :-)

- Robert

"hvacrmedic" wrote in message
...


American Mechanical wrote:
wrote in message
...

Stormin Mormon wrote:


BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in
the end.

Indeed it does, in typical HVAC fuzzy thinking, but
Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Nick


???

Tons are power? Power being measured in watts, I don't believe this
holds
water. :-)

A ton of refrigerating effect is equal to the amount of heat that is
added
to one ton of 32 deg F ice in order to convert it to 32 deg F water in a
24
hour time period. The latent heat of fusion for water(ice) is 144 BTU
per
pound and there are 2000 pounds in a ton therefore you must add 288,000
BTU
within a 24 hour period to melt the ice. 288,000 BTU divided by 24
hours is
12,000 BTU that must be added per hour in order to melt the ton of ice.

So, 12,000 BTUH is considered one ton of refrigerating effect.

See, nothing fuzzy about that is there?

Yes, quite fuzzy how BTU suddenly became BTUH

hvacrmedic

Awww, I thought it was at least as clear as mud!

- Robert


Unless of course I'm wrong which
has been known to happen. :-)

- Robert

"American Mechanical" wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
American Mechanical wrote:

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in the end.

(A "ton per day" would be 12,000 Btu per hour _per hour_ :-)

Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Tons are power?

Right 12K Btu PER HOUR is equivalent to 3.5 kW.

Then of course there's the COP to factor in. ;-)


Power being measured in watts, I don't believe this holds water. :-)

Saying "Btu PER HOUR" instead of the "Btu" HVAC jargon would remind us
that a Btu is a quantity of heat energy and a Btu per hour is a measure
of power, ie a rate of energy flow. It would also avoid rational but
confusing questions like "You say this is a 6000 Btu air conditioner.
What do I do when the 6000 Btus run out? Buy another?" :-)

If I had stock in the window air conditioner industry the answer would be
YES!


A ton of refrigerating effect is equal to the amount of heat that is
added
to one ton of 32 deg F ice in order to convert it to 32 deg F water in
a
24
hour time period. The latent heat of fusion for water(ice) is 144 BTU
per
pound and there are 2000 pounds in a ton therefore you must add 288,000
BTU
within a 24 hour period to melt the ice. 288,000 BTU divided by 24
hours
is
12,000 BTU that must be added per hour in order to melt the ton of ice.

Righto.

So, 12,000 BTUH is considered one ton of refrigerating effect.

Nice that you added an H this time. Writing Btu/H is even clearer, or p,
if you like, as in mph or mpg. Watt-hours (Wh) or kilowatt-hours (kWh)
have meaning as units of energy, but a BTUH is meaningless in the
context
of physics.

Nick

I added the H everywhere in the post that it applied. Maybe we could
change
the ton to be more commonly referred to as the 288,000 BTU per day unit.
:-D
Of course then one might have the question as to the day being 8 hours, 12
hours, or all 24........ :-)

- Robert



Kinda on here...
But..
I wish as a whole, the entire HVAC industry would kill the tonnage verbage.
One companys 2 ton unit, will be around 24,000 BTU, while anothers will be
closer to 22,000...

"CBHVAC" same @as.it.was.com wrote

Kinda on here...
But..
I wish as a whole, the entire HVAC industry would kill the tonnage
verbage.
One companys 2 ton unit, will be around 24,000 BTU, while anothers will be
closer to 22,000...

Without a doubt, I agree. Except in keeping with medic's correction for me,
that's BTUH. ;-)

- Robert

American Mechanical wrote:

...that's BTUH. ;-)

I'd vote for Btuph, pronounced "beetuuf" :-)

Nick

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

A BTU is the ammount of heat required to raise one pound of
water on degree farenheit.

Now, for AC we talk about BTU per hour.

A ton is the ammount of heat needed to melt one ton of ice
over a 24 hour period (which oddly enough works out to be
12,000 BTU every hour for the 24 hour period).

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU per hour compared to ton per day. It all works out in
the end.

Indeed it does, in typical HVAC fuzzy thinking, but
Btus are energy, and tons are power, and failing to
recognize the difference (eg to write and think Btu
PER HOUR) is a source of great confusion to people
who know anything at all about physics :-)

Nick

You, I like! Exactly correct!

(Use for an hour, throw it out, buy another one?)

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
...

Saying "Btu PER HOUR" instead of the "Btu" HVAC jargon would
remind us
that a Btu is a quantity of heat energy and a Btu per hour
is a measure
of power, ie a rate of energy flow. It would also avoid
rational but
confusing questions like "You say this is a 6000 Btu air
conditioner.
What do I do when the 6000 Btus run out? Buy another?" :-)

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.

Power and energy are different. Power is a rate, like miles per hour
or dollars per hour. Energy is an accumulated quantity, like miles
traveled or the amount on a paycheck.

A BTU is the ammount of heat required to raise one pound of
water on degree farenheit.

Now, for AC we talk about BTU per hour.

See? :-) The first is energy. The second is power.

A ton is the ammount of heat needed to melt one ton of ice
over a 24 hour period (which oddly enough works out to be
12,000 BTU every hour for the 24 hour period).

No. A ton is a rate of heatflow, vs an amount of heat energy.
Translated from HVAC jargon, a "ton" is 12K Btu PER HOUR or
"1 ton of ice PER DAY," vs "1 ton of ice."

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some old-timey HVAC guys pull up
with a horse-drawn wagon containing a ton of ice in response to
a client who calls to say he needs a ton of air conditioning... :-)

Nick

wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.

Power and energy are different. Power is a rate, like miles per hour
or dollars per hour. Energy is an accumulated quantity, like miles
traveled or the amount on a paycheck.

A BTU is the ammount of heat required to raise one pound of
water on degree farenheit.

Now, for AC we talk about BTU per hour.

See? :-) The first is energy. The second is power.

A ton is the ammount of heat needed to melt one ton of ice
over a 24 hour period (which oddly enough works out to be
12,000 BTU every hour for the 24 hour period).

No. A ton is a rate of heatflow, vs an amount of heat energy.
Translated from HVAC jargon, a "ton" is 12K Btu PER HOUR or
"1 ton of ice PER DAY," vs "1 ton of ice."

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some old-timey HVAC guys pull up
with a horse-drawn wagon containing a ton of ice in response to
a client who calls to say he needs a ton of air conditioning... :-)

Nick

I've seen some customers on Saturday evening, holiday weekend, in the middle
of summer that would've torn out a wall to shove the ice in..... :-)

- Robert

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 23 Jun 2004 06:23:34 -0400, wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.


Asa used in the HVAC industry, both are power, that is they have ebergy
tranfered over a time period.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.

Asa used in the HVAC industry, both are power, that is they have ebergy
tranfered over a time period.

Asa misused :-) We still need an ebergy unit to talk about things like
storing coolth overnight in an ice tank or the heating value of
a gallon of oil...

Would you use the same unit for an air conditioner rating?

No. That's really Btu PER HOUR.

Nick

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 23 Jun 2004 09:37:44 -0400, wrote:

gerry wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.

Asa used in the HVAC industry, both are power, that is they have ebergy
tranfered over a time period.

Asa misused :-) We still need an ebergy unit to talk about things like
storing coolth overnight in an ice tank or the heating value of
a gallon of oil...

I see, a moronic idiot with nothing better to do... If you has stopped
with the ":-)" I might feel otherwise. It's amazing how many morons never
consider that somebody might have a vision impairment and cut some slack
for a bad night.


Would you use the same unit for an air conditioner rating?

No. That's really Btu PER HOUR.

However true that all units are commonly explicitly used in engineering
and science, in common field practice, time units are commonly implied
with heating & cooling devices.

Drop by your local appliance dealer and ACs will have BTU in big bold
numbers. BTU/h may not even be on the packaging.

On a fuel fired furnaces, BTU's get even more confused. Often, the BTU
rating (per implied time unit) is input, not output. Since the rating is
often input, should it be in gallons (at what temperature - oh, that is
implied), cubic feet (what absolute pressure and temperature - oh, that is
implied), pounds (or should that be lbm for folks on other planets, or
maybe 1G is implied)???

With cooling devices, it's neither - its BTU's (per implied time unit)
*transferred* under "nominal" conditions. Also, the sensible capacity
rarely equals the latent capacity.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry wrote:

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.

Asa used in the HVAC industry, both are power, that is they have ebergy
tranfered over a time period.

Asa misused :-) We still need an ebergy unit to talk about things like
storing coolth overnight in an ice tank or the heating value of
a gallon of oil...

I see, a moronic idiot with nothing better to do... If you has stopped
with the ":-)" I might feel otherwise. It's amazing how many morons never
consider that somebody might have a vision impairment and cut some slack
for a bad night.

On the internet, nobody knows you are blind :-)

Congrats on your (spellchecker?) improved paragraph.

Would you use the same unit for an air conditioner rating?

No. That's really Btu PER HOUR.

However true that all units are commonly explicitly used in engineering
and science, in common field practice, time units are commonly implied
with heating & cooling devices.

Sure... And landscapers need so many "yards" of dirt, and
"PV consultant" George Ghio measures resistors in amps...
But it's still wrong, wrong, wrong.

Nick

It's a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people
become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level,
as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after
solution will appear.
Tom Smith, 1980

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 24 Jun 2004 12:49:57 -0400, wrote:

gerry wrote:

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

A ton is a measure of heat power, ie a rate of energy flow over time.

Asa used in the HVAC industry, both are power, that is they have ebergy
tranfered over a time period.

Asa misused :-) We still need an ebergy unit to talk about things like
storing coolth overnight in an ice tank or the heating value of
a gallon of oil...

I see, a moronic idiot with nothing better to do... If you has stopped
with the ":-)" I might feel otherwise. It's amazing how many morons never
consider that somebody might have a vision impairment and cut some slack
for a bad night.

On the internet, nobody knows you are blind :-)

Congrats on your (spellchecker?) improved paragraph.

Impairment does not imply blind or consistency, moronic, narrow minded
arrogance strikes again!


Would you use the same unit for an air conditioner rating?

No. That's really Btu PER HOUR.

However true that all units are commonly explicitly used in engineering
and science, in common field practice, time units are commonly implied
with heating & cooling devices.

Sure... And landscapers need so many "yards" of dirt, and
"PV consultant" George Ghio measures resistors in amps...
But it's still wrong, wrong, wrong.

Nick

And your still wrong, wrong, wrong. In your fun, you didn't specify the
molecular makeup and temperature of your gallon of oil. Thus, in the
strict sense, it is meaningless. Of course, you clipped a whole list of
items whose parameters are customarily omitted. Try actually fitting 125
cu-ft of water into a 125 cu-ft compressed gas cylinder! Both DOT and the
compressed gas industry commonly omits gas compression in their
specifications.

Units, and sometimes material, are implied all the time. Soil is often
invoiced in yards. I have never seen a resistor's resistance specified in
amps though I have seen negative temperature coefficient resistive devices
with a maximum surge amperage specification.

Using a unit of measurement with missing parameters is not incorrect if
the context implies the absent parameters.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

I've got a 6,000 BTU air conditioner. What do I do when it's
used up all the BTU's, about an hour from now. Throw it away
and buy another one?

The fact is that as the folks who make AC are concerned, a
"BTU" is the same as what others would call BTU/hour.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat
energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with
time.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:18:01 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I've got a 6,000 BTU air conditioner. What do I do when it's
used up all the BTU's, about an hour from now. Throw it away
and buy another one?

The fact is that as the folks who make AC are concerned, a
"BTU" is the same as what others would call BTU/hour.

Chris, do you enjoy being the village idiot ?



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'

HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

On 23 Jun 2004 06:23:34 -0400, wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

Jargon is as jargon does, semantics aside.

Sadly, all too often, "BTU" is short for "BTU per hour".
When someone mentions a "24000 BTU" compressor, it is =understood= they mean
a 2-ton unit, or a pump designed for a system which moves 24000 BTU/hr of
heat.

This irritates me no less less than our poor nickname for gasoline. We call
it "gas". It's pitiful.


--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
Always listen to experts. They will explain what
can't be done and why. Then do it. - Robert Heinlein
~~~~~~~~

On 24 Jun 2004 12:49:57 -0400, wrote:

Congrats on your (spellchecker?) improved paragraph.

Two men, he Air oars pass write Threw my spell Check her.
--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
"When the world was flat as a pancake,
Mona Lisa was happy as a clam." - John Prine
~~~~~~~~

This irritates me no less less than our poor nickname for gasoline. We
call
it "gas". It's pitiful.


--
-john

no it's not it's called petrol

cheers

richard

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:55:59 -0700, ~^Johnny^~
wrote:

On 23 Jun 2004 06:23:34 -0400, wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:

BTU's and tons both refer to the rates of moving heat energy
over time. They are different units, but they both refer to
moving heat over a period of time.

No. A Btu is a unit of energy, which has nothing to do with time.

Jargon is as jargon does, semantics aside.

Sadly, all too often, "BTU" is short for "BTU per hour".
When someone mentions a "24000 BTU" compressor, it is =understood= they mean
a 2-ton unit, or a pump designed for a system which moves 24000 BTU/hr of
heat.

In good humor at this point!!!

While at my local BJs Yesterday, they had 3 brands of window air
conditioners, all marked in BTU. No time unit on the boxes, *anyplace*. A
note, the sn sticker on the open display units did have BTU/h or BTU/hr
(both were used). But no mention of the nominal conditions at which the
labeled energy transfer rate is valid.

Just as the compressed gas industry uses cu-ft, much is implied. A 1 lb
steak should be in lbm to be accurate. Seems folks accept 1 lbf exerted on
a scale operated at 1 G as implied. After all, force was measured when
measuring the portion.

This irritates me no less less than our poor nickname for gasoline. We call
it "gas". It's pitiful.

What's worse, in general, one can't even buy gasoline. In general only
gasoline plus additives is available which is labeled "gasoline" ;-) So I
guess you meat "gasoline blend" and left out "blend" or "with additives"
VBG.

Of course, a check with yourDictionary.com yields: (#3 is of interest)

gas
n. pl. gas·es or gas·ses


1. a. The state of matter distinguished from the solid and liquid
states by relatively low density and viscosity, relatively great expansion
and contraction with changes in pressure and temperature, the ability to
diffuse readily, and the spontaneous tendency to become distributed
uniformly throughout any container. b. A substance in the gaseous state.

2. A gaseous fuel, such as natural gas.

3. Gasoline.

4. The speed control of a gasoline engine. Used with the: Step on the
gas.

5. A gaseous asphyxiant, irritant, or poison.

6. A gaseous anesthetic, such as nitrous oxide.

7. a. Flatulence. b. Flatus.

8. Slang Idle or boastful talk.

9. Slang Someone or something exceptionally exciting or entertaining:

Language and it's usage is dynamic with time. And, I believe, even the
strictest scientist finds themselves implying some unit or parameter
needed for a truly accurate statement on a daily basis.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:41:07 +0100, "r.bartlett"
wrote:

I wrote:

This irritates me no less less than our poor nickname for gasoline.
We call it "gas". It's pitiful.

no it's not it's called petrol

I stand corrected.

:-)




--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
I don't know of anybody that has a perfect life
- Marie Osmond
~~~~~~~~

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:41:07 +0100, "r.bartlett"
wrote:


This irritates me no less less than our poor nickname for gasoline. We
call
it "gas". It's pitiful.


--
-john

no it's not it's called petrol

:-O

And the heavy bottoms are called "Petrolatum".
We call it "Vaseline".

Except for the less highly refined product.
It is wheel bearing grease. Valvoline NLGI. GL-CB.
Automotive Wheel Bearing & Chassis Lubricant.
g,r,d


--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

~~~~~~~~
A little knowledge that acts is worth infinitely
more than much knowledge that is idle. -Kahlil Gibran
~~~~~~~~

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:08:57 -0400, gerry wrote:

A 1 lb
steak should be in lbm to be accurate. Seems folks accept 1 lbf exerted on
a scale operated at 1 G as implied. After all, force was measured when
measuring the portion.

Well, muscle applies force...

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:45:20 -0700, ~^Johnny^~
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:08:57 -0400, gerry wrote:

A 1 lb
steak should be in lbm to be accurate. Seems folks accept 1 lbf exerted on
a scale operated at 1 G as implied. After all, force was measured when
measuring the portion.

Well, muscle applies force...

So do we get different force for 1 lb of fatty Prime vs 1 lb of lean
Select beef? VBG

gerry


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:35:27 -0400, gerry wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:45:20 -0700, ~^Johnny^~
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 11:08:57 -0400, gerry wrote:

A 1 lb
steak should be in lbm to be accurate. Seems folks accept 1 lbf exerted on
a scale operated at 1 G as implied. After all, force was measured when
measuring the portion.

Well, muscle applies force...

So do we get different force for 1 lb of fatty Prime vs 1 lb of lean
Select beef? VBG

gerry

=ouch=!