On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 01:00:58 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 00:25:45 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The code does not define up or down with snap switches but it does say
up is on for circuit breakers and unit disconnects that operate up and
down. There is no preference on side to side operation.
This probably came from the code rule about knife switches where it
says gravity shall not tend to move a switch to the on position.

Circuit breakers are operated with a spring. The code specifying up or down for off is ****ing beyond a joke. Do these red tape ****wits have nothing better to do with their lives?


Since most panels have breakers going side to side, it is really not
that big a deal. The knife switch is really an archaic thing. I doubt
most people here have ever even seen one except in the movies.
They do want disconnects to be installed in a uniform way, just to
avoid confusion when someone may need to operate it in a hurry

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
NEWSFLASH!!! Bouncing elephantiasis woman destroys central Portsmouth

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:09:46 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/23/2016 04:34 PM, wrote:

[snip]

The limeys "open" a switch to turn something on, too, while the rest
of the world "close" it.


That might have come from gas lights, where you OPEN the valve when you
want light.

Except it isn't like that. I've never heard anyone in any country say open to make a switch go on.

--
Peter is in the top three most intelligent people -- Ron Tompkins, circa 2013.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:18:22 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/23/2016 02:08 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:52:37 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

That's the normal way. Down for on, off for up.

Not here.


It's possible it was a replacement switch and the wires were too short
to turn it the right way. I've had one like that.

Every lightswitch I've had has one wire going in each end. So you can turn it round without needing longer wires.

--
I would defend the liberty of consenting adult creationists to practice whatever intellectual perversions they like in the privacy of their own homes; but it is also necessary to protect the young and innocent. -- Arthur C. Clarke

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:21:10 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/23/2016 03:26 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:28:16 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Not that I've had a lightswitch in my house for a decade. They're all automated. The cats can turn them on too.


My "walking around" lights, inside and out are PIR but the light in
the bedrooms and "task lights" are on switches.
It is still fairly unusual here tho.
I started with the motion light in the kitchen after I found the wife
and daughter using the fridge light as a night light. Sometimes it
would stay open until morning. I have rope under the toe kicks and
over the train track so you can see enough to get a drink or a quick
snack.


I have a string of red LED holiday lights in the hall. These are called
"Lilly's Lights", after a small cat I used to have. She often slept in
the hall are the lights were to avoid stepping on her.

My cats like to walk in front of me then wonder why I trip over them. They seem to be clever enough not to try the same with cars.

--
An ostrichs eye is bigger than its brain.

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:34:27 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 14:28:57 -0500, Dave C wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:51:57 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:57:23 -0500, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

If you have to ask, my advice would be to call an electrician. You don't want to start a fire.

I asked because I did not know how to do a specific home wiring task.
I knew the solution was simple, well within my capabilities -your
snide comment ignored.

Just to set the record straight my advice was not snide. Not knowing your capabilities it was appropriate.

BTW: I am a degreed electrical engineer - though my area of
knowledge/ experience is in designing Electronic Warfare microwave
systems. You can ask me how to design/build a 70 dB DR DLVA 15 MHz
video BW device and I will assist you - as used in ESM RWR receivers

Snide mode activated. If you're a EE you must have been at the bottom of your class.

Snide mode deactivated.

I was remiss, with my prior reply. Might Mr Shumway cite his Esteemed
background !! Yoiur Arrogance might lead one to believe that you were
Magma Cum Laude, MIT engineering grad?

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:09:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

They do want disconnects to be installed in a uniform way, just to
avoid confusion when someone may need to operate it in a hurry

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
If your developed muscle memory is "off is down" you don't have to
think in an emergency

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:12:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


My cats like to walk in front of me then wonder why I trip over them. They seem to be clever enough not to try the same with cars.

Tripping over a 115 pound Labrador is a little more significant
because when he jumps up he will knock you over if you haven't already
fallen

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 3:01:10 PM UTC-5, Dave C wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:34:27 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 14:28:57 -0500, Dave C wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:51:57 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:57:23 -0500, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

If you have to ask, my advice would be to call an electrician. You don't want to start a fire.

I asked because I did not know how to do a specific home wiring task.
I knew the solution was simple, well within my capabilities -your
snide comment ignored.

Just to set the record straight my advice was not snide. Not knowing your capabilities it was appropriate.

BTW: I am a degreed electrical engineer - though my area of
knowledge/ experience is in designing Electronic Warfare microwave
systems. You can ask me how to design/build a 70 dB DR DLVA 15 MHz
video BW device and I will assist you - as used in ESM RWR receivers

Snide mode activated. If you're a EE you must have been at the bottom of your class.

Snide mode deactivated.

Actually I graduated in the top 20% of an Ivy league University class,
as a EE. I was Director of Engineering at age 37, for a large defense
company. I retired at age 45, 23 years ago because I could !!

I merely asked for advise! Clearly I was not soliciting your USELESS
/Snide commentary !! I was fortunte, that other responders WERE
Helpful, with sage advise that I implimented successfully.

Oddly, as I have followed this site for many years, I may have found
your prior posts helpful. Too bad you find the need to .....

BTW: If you think it is Obvious, to cut the side connection, on the AC
outlet - I also know that you are are a LIAR.

Aside from being a-hole, Gordo is apparently also under the mistaken assumption
that the term "Electrical Engineering" somehow equates to Electrician. That
assumption is something that I have experienced quite often over the years.

I have a BSEE so I can state with 100% certainty that "residential house
wiring" was not part of the EE curriculum, at least not back in the mid-80's.

If an EE knows how to wire a split switched receptacle, it is something (s)he
learned from a source unrelated to the degree they earned - unless perhaps it
was an elective. It sure wasn't an elective at RIT back when I attended.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 04:31:57 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 12:52:46 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:12:58 -0000, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article ,
says...
--
I could always add a switch next to an outlet which would be fine for a kitchen counter or workbench. I actually had switches for the outlets on my workbench. The problem here in the States is that most of our electrical outlets are around foot off the floor so bending down to turn something on and off could be difficult especially if the outlet is behind a couch. Back at my home, I have two switches on the
wall inside next to the front door. One is for the porch light and the other controls the outlet under the front window for a lamp so one can turn it on when entering a dark house. The rest of the electrical outlets including those above the kitchen counters are not switched. ?(?)?

One of the outlets in my house is switched on with the wall switch where
you come into the room. The house was built around 1985.

For some reason one of the lights in a room comes on when the switch is
down and off when up. Not sure if it is a 3 way switch that I can't
find another switch for , of if someone just installed it upside down.
Thought about looking and changing it, but just too lazey. That light is
seldom used anyway.

That's the normal way. Down for on, off for up.
--


Here a light switch is toggled into the up position for "ON". you Limeys do things backwards. Heck, you even drive on the wrong side of the road. Strange for a seafaring nation where ships traditionally pass to the right when approaching each other. I thought that would have happened on roadways there too. My British cousins do seem to be contrarians. I believe that's why we divorced. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Related Monster

We read from left to right, we also drive on the left. Left first. Simple? Only Muslims read right to left.

--
This space was empty.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:15:38 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/23/2016 01:49 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Floor lamps have foot-activated switches. Table lamps have a switch on
the cord or next to the bulb, or the fancy ones you touch the base and
it detects you by capacitance.

I've never seen a lamp with a foot switch. Most lamps (floor or table,
doesn't matter) I see have a switch built into the socket. I do have a
couple of touch lamps, including one that "touches" itself.

[snip]

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225...5-F_CSe7Fg.jpg


--
Beating your wife is like keying your own car.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 03:38:29 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:15:38 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/23/2016 01:49 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Floor lamps have foot-activated switches. Table lamps have a switch on
the cord or next to the bulb, or the fancy ones you touch the base and
it detects you by capacitance.

I've never seen a lamp with a foot switch. Most lamps (floor or table,
doesn't matter) I see have a switch built into the socket. I do have a
couple of touch lamps, including one that "touches" itself.

[snip]
It's another British thing. Push-on push-off switches on the base of
floor lamps were somewhat common in the British colonies as well (I
ran across a few in Zambia) - If you tripped over the light in the
dark it would turn on - or if you tripped over something in the dark
and banged your head on the lamp. I always found the darn things to be
a royal pain in the tush.

I prefer lights to be out of the way on the ceiling.

--
Beating your wife is like keying your own car.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 06:49:13 -0000, Bod wrote:


What country is a better question.
The part you are missing is "wall switch". This is a switch near the
door that controls a receptacle somewhere in the room. (for a lamp)
It is not a switch right on the receptacle.

Makes more sense to have the switch no the socket, then it's clear
what it's for and where to find it.


Yeah, that works real great for a floor lamp. When you enter the room
in the dark, you can move the sofa, crawl behind it, to turn on the
switch
for the floor lamp. Idiot.

You have the choice to leave the socket switch in the on position.
Some people like to switch, say, a tv completely off and not to
leave it
on standby.

I remember when VCRs came out, it took years to convince my dad it was
easier to leave the VCR on all night than to reset the ****ing clock
every time you wanted to record something!

Ha! I remember my inlaws switching *every* socket off every night
before bed.

I know two people who think electricity leaks out of a socket if no plug
is in it.

Lol, are you serious?

Yes, one is about my age (an ex colleague) and one is my grandmother.

--
Interesting fact number 923:
Half the world's population has seen at least one Bond movie.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 11:46:39 -0000, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 3:27:45 PM UTC-5, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:16:28 -0000, Bod wrote:

On 23/12/2016 20:08, wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:52:37 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

That's the normal way. Down for on, off for up.

Not here.

Really?

Actually, it seems to change depending what you're doing. For example I find it odd that my Renault requires me to push the lever down to turn the wipers on. Every other car has been up.

And why is it taps for water and gas are anticlockwise for more, yet volume controls and electric cookers are clockwise for more?

Here, it's counterclockwise for hot (on the left) and clockwise for
cold (on the right). That gives a mirrored movement in each wrist.
I find it very convenient.

Cindy Hamilton

You have sink taps that operate in opposite directions? That would confuse me significantly.

--
I told my wife the truth. I told her I was seeing a psychiatrist.
Then she told me the truth: that she was seeing a psychiatrist, two plumbers, and a bartender.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:28:22 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 12:14:48 AM UTC-6, Tony944 wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 5:37:53 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:57:23 -0000, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

What century are you living in? All my sockets have switches on them.
--


You do know that North American wiring standards, voltages and frequency of
normal AC power for homes. business and industry are quite different from
those of Europe? Your inductive hum is lower and more masculine. I suppose
that's a point of pride for you. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Humming Monster

****Simple answers ****
Can I change duplex outlet that one half works of the switch and other being
directly on the line:: €œNO€� unless you can run additional line, you need
four wires 2 Hot one Neutral and one for Ground, Only then you can split
the duplex, one output hook to hot line and one hook on the line coming from
the switch. This is for 120 Voltage source USA standard Receptacle.


All of the switched outlets I ever wired had the feed at the outlet not the switch. The power to the outlet was daisy chained to the other outlets in the room and a piece of Romex was run to the switch to control the power to one or both sides of the duplex receptacle. Having the feed at the receptacle means you only have to break the hot tab to separate the sides and switch one of them. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

Yes Europe power is 50 cycle (Hrz), While USA is 60 cycle (Hrz) . Please
Note; resistive loads can run very efficiently on both powers. For inductive
loads €œIt will not€� Voltage must be reduce apx. 10 to 15%. for American made
motors to run on 50 Hrz. At 50 Hrz motors will draw more current that will
cause overheat and shout down or will burn up..

As for leakage I do not believe that makes any difference with 50 or 60
Herz. However Voltage does make differences, and when it is said leakage
into what across what ???
Remember working with USA 120 Standard and working with 1000 volt (Example)
is big difference.


The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

--
If god is so amazing, why did the dinosaurs die out?

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 14:36:34 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:28:22 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

All of the switched outlets I ever wired had the feed at the outlet not the switch. The power to the outlet was daisy chained to the other outlets in the room and a piece of Romex was run to the switch to control the power to one or both sides of the duplex receptacle. Having the feed at the receptacle means you only have to break the hot tab to separate the sides and switch one of them. ?(?)?


The code now requires a neutral at every switch location so you may
see things wired differently. It is because there are so many "smart"
switches coming down the pipe that need a neutral.

Code is for pussies. Think for yourself, design to your heart's content.

--
If god is so amazing, why did the dinosaurs die out?

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:22:25 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:09:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

They do want disconnects to be installed in a uniform way, just to
avoid confusion when someone may need to operate it in a hurry

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
If your developed muscle memory is "off is down" you don't have to
think in an emergency

Muscles don't remember off and on.

--
A brunette, a blonde, and a redhead are all in third grade. Who has the biggest breasts?
The blonde, because she's 18.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:28:18 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:12:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


My cats like to walk in front of me then wonder why I trip over them. They seem to be clever enough not to try the same with cars.

Tripping over a 115 pound Labrador is a little more significant
because when he jumps up he will knock you over if you haven't already
fallen

I wasn't aware dogs were stupid enough to walk in front of you.

--
A pack-a-day smoker will lose approximately 2 teeth every 10 years.

On 12/23/2016 10:28 PM, wrote:

[snip]

"Smart" TVs will draw more because there is a processor running all
the time and even loafing along,

What would the processor be DOING when the TV is off.

it is still going to draw something.
Cranked up it can stream and process 1080 HD content so that makes it
a pretty powerful PC.


Cable boxes and DVRs do ned to be active when "off". I have measured the
power consumption of a cable box and found no measurable difference
between "on" and "off".

BTW, these digital adapters I got recently don't have "off".

--
1 day until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM
for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." -- Sir William
Osler

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:12:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


In the UK we figured out how to put lights on the ceiling.

We have decorators here who think things like that are so "dated". No
matter what people have, they want something different.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:15:31 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
If your developed muscle memory is "off is down" you don't have to
think in an emergency

Muscles don't remember off and on.

They do remember actions tho.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:16:29 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:28:18 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:12:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


My cats like to walk in front of me then wonder why I trip over them. They seem to be clever enough not to try the same with cars.

Tripping over a 115 pound Labrador is a little more significant
because when he jumps up he will knock you over if you haven't already
fallen

I wasn't aware dogs were stupid enough to walk in front of you.

He doesn't walk in front of you, he just takes up a lot of room laying
down and in the dark he is hard to miss.

On 12/24/2016 04:11 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Every lightswitch I've had has one wire going in each end. So you can
turn it round without needing longer wires.


Most (all IIRC) switches I know have the wires on one SIDE, so turning
the switch moves those terminals. Do you have a picture of a switch with
wires going in the ends?

--
1 day until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM
for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." -- Sir William
Osler

On 12/24/2016 08:04 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:15:38 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/23/2016 01:49 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Floor lamps have foot-activated switches. Table lamps have a switch on
the cord or next to the bulb, or the fancy ones you touch the base and
it detects you by capacitance.

I've never seen a lamp with a foot switch. Most lamps (floor or table,
doesn't matter) I see have a switch built into the socket. I do have a
couple of touch lamps, including one that "touches" itself.

[snip]

http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225...5-F_CSe7Fg.jpg

I do have a switch like that, on an extension cord for Christmas tree
lights.

--
1 day until the winter celebration (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM
for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." -- Sir William
Osler

I remember when VCRs came out, it took years to convince my dad it was
easier to leave the VCR on all night than to reset the ****ing clock
every time you wanted to record something!

Ha! I remember my inlaws switching *every* socket off every night
before bed.

I know two people who think electricity leaks out of a socket if no plug
is in it.

Lol, are you serious?

Yes, one is about my age (an ex colleague) and one is my grandmother.

Streuth! :-)

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 8:14:03 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 10:28:22 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 12:14:48 AM UTC-6, Tony944 wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 5:37:53 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:57:23 -0000, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

What century are you living in? All my sockets have switches on them.
--


You do know that North American wiring standards, voltages and frequency of
normal AC power for homes. business and industry are quite different from
those of Europe? Your inductive hum is lower and more masculine. I suppose
that's a point of pride for you. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Humming Monster

****Simple answers ****
Can I change duplex outlet that one half works of the switch and other being
directly on the line:: €œNO€� unless you can run additional line, you need
four wires 2 Hot one Neutral and one for Ground, Only then you can split
the duplex, one output hook to hot line and one hook on the line coming from
the switch. This is for 120 Voltage source USA standard Receptacle.


All of the switched outlets I ever wired had the feed at the outlet not the switch. The power to the outlet was daisy chained to the other outlets in the room and a piece of Romex was run to the switch to control the power to one or both sides of the duplex receptacle. Having the feed at the receptacle means you only have to break the hot tab to separate the sides and switch one of them. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

Yes Europe power is 50 cycle (Hrz), While USA is 60 cycle (Hrz) . Please
Note; resistive loads can run very efficiently on both powers. For inductive
loads €œIt will not€� Voltage must be reduce apx. 10 to 15%. for American made
motors to run on 50 Hrz. At 50 Hrz motors will draw more current that will
cause overheat and shout down or will burn up..

As for leakage I do not believe that makes any difference with 50 or 60
Herz. However Voltage does make differences, and when it is said leakage
into what across what ???
Remember working with USA 120 Standard and working with 1000 volt (Example)
is big difference.


The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?
--


It probably has to do with the higher speed at which generators would have to spin and I believe there would be greater losses in the distribution system due to the higher frequency. Some long distance high voltage transmission lines are actually DC. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Shocking Monster

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher frequencies because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a license as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators would also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit that spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at 12,600rpm or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high rpm so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight. I suppose I have some research to do. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 21:39:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/23/2016 10:28 PM, wrote:

[snip]

"Smart" TVs will draw more because there is a processor running all
the time and even loafing along,

What would the processor be DOING when the TV is off.

Smart TVs are not "off" unless you pull the plug.
Monitoring for software updates for one. It is still in there chugging
along, about like your PC when it is setting on the desk top and no
applications active.

it is still going to draw something.
Cranked up it can stream and process 1080 HD content so that makes it
a pretty powerful PC.


Cable boxes and DVRs do ned to be active when "off". I have measured the
power consumption of a cable box and found no measurable difference
between "on" and "off".

BTW, these digital adapters I got recently don't have "off".

The TV uses less power because the display and audio amp is off, That
is about it.

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?


It probably has to do with the higher speed at which generators would have to spin
and I believe there would be greater losses in the distribution system due to the
higher frequency. Some long distance high voltage transmission lines are actually DC. ?(?)?
[8~{} Uncle Shocking Monster


One example of Direct Current transmission :

https://www.hydro.mb.ca/projects/bipoleIII/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson...mission_System

John T.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 00:02:50 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher frequencies because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a license as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators would also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit that spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at 12,600rpm or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high rpm so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight. I suppose I have some research to do. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

The generator thing is just how they are wound. We had 400 hz MG sets
in computer rooms for years. (60 hz 208v 3p to 400hz 208 3p)
Our big power supplies ran on 400 hz.

Uncle Monster explained on 12/25/2016 :
On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power
systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics
are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz
transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher frequencies
because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a license
as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm
guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require
shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators would
also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit that
spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at 12,600rpm
or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a
lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high rpm
so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up
and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight. I
suppose I have some research to do. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

My first thought was skin effect, but that is a very small factor under
1000 Hz. I don't think propagation would be much of a factor either if
the systems were designed properly.

I'll go with 'tradition' as the major factor. Most 'end user' devices
here are engineered with filters to reject harmonics of the 60 cycle
system, or rely on the 60 cycle broadcast standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 09:52:40 -0500, FromTheRafters
wrote:

My first thought was skin effect, but that is a very small factor under
1000 Hz. I don't think propagation would be much of a factor either if
the systems were designed properly.

That is not exactly true. We were starting to see it on big buses at
400 hz. They were replaced by fine strand cables similar to welding
cable. These were handling around 60-100a tho. Once we got away from
regular transistor logic and into CMOS the current requirements
dropped and 400hz went away.

On 12/24/2016 09:40 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:12:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


In the UK we figured out how to put lights on the ceiling.

We have decorators here who think things like that are so "dated". No
matter what people have, they want something different.


I recently saw a TV show where people were "redecorating". Apparently,
its something rich people do where they give up control of everything
inside their house.

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

On 12/24/2016 09:48 PM, wrote:

[snip]

He doesn't walk in front of you, he just takes up a lot of room laying
down and in the dark he is hard to miss.


I used to have a big black dog. He had a habit of sleeping on the floor
next to my bed, where it was hard not to step on him when I got up (and
black dogs can be hard to see in the dark).

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

[snip]

The TV uses less power because the display and audio amp is off, That
is about it.


Don't forget the video amp.

I forgot about the checking for updates.

BTW, I've had a smart TV (Vizio) since about November 10, and haven't
connected the internet to it. I got it to watch TV. I might sometime
(its supposed to get Netflix and YouTube among other stuff).

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ...

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 1:14:48 AM UTC-5, Tony944 wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 5:37:53 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:57:23 -0000, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

What century are you living in? All my sockets have switches on them.
--


You do know that North American wiring standards, voltages and frequency of
normal AC power for homes. business and industry are quite different from
those of Europe? Your inductive hum is lower and more masculine. I suppose
that's a point of pride for you. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Humming Monster

****Simple answers ****
€œCan I change€� duplex outlet that one half works of the switch and other being
directly on the line:: €œNO€� unless you can run additional line, you need
four wires 2 Hot one Neutral and one for Ground, Only then you can split
the duplex, one output hook to hot line and one hook on the line coming from
the switch. This is for 120 Voltage source USA standard Receptacle.

That's wrong. If the source hot is already in the receptacle box then the conversion
is fairly simple. You only need to run another wire if the source hot is in the switch
box.

***No you are wrong "Look what man is asking for"

Comments has being made that is not convenient, if you enter in room need to
go behind sofa to put lamp €œon€�. Yes it defiantly sound pretty stupid. But
why one would need to do that Most of Lamps in USA comes with the switch at
the bulb socket, some come in the base of Table lamps, or you can get sound
activated switch or intrusion switch, any one comes in room the lights goes
on, they are made with time delays built in to them for on or off, that are
some remote ones that you not need do anything but plug it in.

If you are going to use the lamp's switch then the location of the switch for the switched
receptacle is a moot point since it will never be switched off.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:47:25 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:15:31 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
If your developed muscle memory is "off is down" you don't have to
think in an emergency

Muscles don't remember off and on.

They do remember actions tho.

No they don't. Your brain might if it's something you do every day. But how often do you switch a breaker?

--
The Artist Formerly Known As Prince has a new album out.
It's called "The Songs Formerly Known As Hits."

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:53:11 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/24/2016 04:11 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Every lightswitch I've had has one wire going in each end. So you can
turn it round without needing longer wires.


Most (all IIRC) switches I know have the wires on one SIDE, so turning
the switch moves those terminals. Do you have a picture of a switch with
wires going in the ends?

http://www.flameport.com/electric_mu...witch_back.jpg

This is typical of the positions where the wires go in a UK single lightswitch. If it's not part of a two way system (switch at each end of a hall), one wire goes into the top hole, and the other into either bottom hole. In fact you can change which way is on by which bottom hole you use. If you pay attention to "TOP" and "FOR SP 1 WAY USE L2", the the switch will be down for on.

--
I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants -- Whitney Brown

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 05:42:17 -0000, Bod wrote:


I remember when VCRs came out, it took years to convince my dad it was
easier to leave the VCR on all night than to reset the ****ing clock
every time you wanted to record something!

Ha! I remember my inlaws switching *every* socket off every night
before bed.

I know two people who think electricity leaks out of a socket if no plug
is in it.

Lol, are you serious?

Yes, one is about my age (an ex colleague) and one is my grandmother.

Streuth! :-)

Twas a teacher. I took the **** out of her once. I unplugged something and left the switch on. She immediately turned it off. I turned it back on and she got irritated, and turned it off again. So I turned it on and sniffed the socket. The whole class erupted in laughter.

--
Hey diddle diddle the cat took a piddle,
All over the bedside clock.
The little dog laughed to see such fun.
Then died of electric shock.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 11:56:15 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

[snip]

The TV uses less power because the display and audio amp is off, That
is about it.


Don't forget the video amp.

I forgot about the checking for updates.

BTW, I've had a smart TV (Vizio) since about November 10, and haven't
connected the internet to it. I got it to watch TV. I might sometime
(its supposed to get Netflix and YouTube among other stuff).

You can get just about anything that is on the internet with it if you
have the subscription and that includes most of the cable channels.
Connecting it is as simple as adding your WiFi password.
The setup wizard on the Samsung is real easy.
You can also plug in a USB drive (hard drive or stick) and play your
own movies and audio. Samsung will connect to your media library in
Media Player but I have never messed with that. I just have a 2 TB
drive that I sneaker net movies to as I get them ripped from DVD. My
goal is to eliminate media played from little bits of plastic. I am
just disappointed that Samsung can't take them directly from my file
server without that WM business. My dumb TVs with PCs attached have no
problem with that.