On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 18:02:05 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:47:25 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:15:31 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
If your developed muscle memory is "off is down" you don't have to
think in an emergency

Muscles don't remember off and on.

They do remember actions tho.

No they don't. Your brain might if it's something you do every day. But how often do you switch a breaker?

If you are a service tech, several times a day and that is mostly who
unit disconnects are for.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 14:52:40 -0000, FromTheRafters wrote:

Uncle Monster explained on 12/25/2016 :
On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power
systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics
are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz
transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher frequencies
because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a license
as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm
guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require
shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators would
also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit that
spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at 12,600rpm
or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a
lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high rpm
so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up
and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight. I
suppose I have some research to do. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

My first thought was skin effect, but that is a very small factor under
1000 Hz. I don't think propagation would be much of a factor either if
the systems were designed properly.

I'll go with 'tradition' as the major factor. Most 'end user' devices
here are engineered with filters to reject harmonics of the 60 cycle
system, or rely on the 60 cycle broadcast standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB

Hearing a 50Hz mains hum isn't that bad, but imagine hearing a higher frequency.

--
It is impossible to hold a sandwich between your elbows and eat it.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 17:46:21 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/24/2016 09:40 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:12:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


In the UK we figured out how to put lights on the ceiling.

We have decorators here who think things like that are so "dated". No
matter what people have, they want something different.


I recently saw a TV show where people were "redecorating". Apparently,
its something rich people do where they give up control of everything
inside their house.

I'm not rich, and I have all the lights automated. They come on when I walk in the room, even if both my hands are full.

--
If a cow laughs, does milk come out of its nose?

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:40:55 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:12:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


In the UK we figured out how to put lights on the ceiling.

We have decorators here who think things like that are so "dated". No
matter what people have, they want something different.

I prefer things to be out of my way and work automatically.

--
Up until 1948 there was a gold medal for town planning in the Olympics.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:48:37 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:16:29 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:28:18 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:12:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


My cats like to walk in front of me then wonder why I trip over them. They seem to be clever enough not to try the same with cars.

Tripping over a 115 pound Labrador is a little more significant
because when he jumps up he will knock you over if you haven't already
fallen

I wasn't aware dogs were stupid enough to walk in front of you.

He doesn't walk in front of you, he just takes up a lot of room laying
down and in the dark he is hard to miss.

I thought only cats were stupid enough to use pathways (as in the middle of the hall) to sleep.

--
People who wonder whether the glass is half empty or half full miss the point. The glass is refillable.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 17:59:18 -0000, Tony944 wrote:



"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ...

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 1:14:48 AM UTC-5, Tony944 wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 5:37:53 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:57:23 -0000, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

What century are you living in? All my sockets have switches on them.
--


You do know that North American wiring standards, voltages and frequency of
normal AC power for homes. business and industry are quite different from
those of Europe? Your inductive hum is lower and more masculine. I suppose
that's a point of pride for you. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Humming Monster

****Simple answers ****
€œCan I change€� duplex outlet that one half works of the switch and other being
directly on the line:: €œNO€� unless you can run additional line, you need
four wires 2 Hot one Neutral and one for Ground, Only then you can split
the duplex, one output hook to hot line and one hook on the line coming from
the switch. This is for 120 Voltage source USA standard Receptacle.

That's wrong. If the source hot is already in the receptacle box then the conversion
is fairly simple. You only need to run another wire if the source hot is in the switch
box.

***No you are wrong "Look what man is asking for"

Comments has being made that is not convenient, if you enter in room need to
go behind sofa to put lamp €œon€�. Yes it defiantly sound pretty stupid. But
why one would need to do that Most of Lamps in USA comes with the switch at
the bulb socket, some come in the base of Table lamps, or you can get sound
activated switch or intrusion switch, any one comes in room the lights goes
on, they are made with time delays built in to them for on or off, that are
some remote ones that you not need do anything but plug it in.

If you are going to use the lamp's switch then the location of the switch for the switched
receptacle is a moot point since it will never be switched off.

Since all lamps have switches, I see no problem in having the switch on the socket. That's half as many things stuck to the wall, and it's clear what operates what.

--
A bloke walks into a Glasgow library and says to the prim librarian,
"Excuse me Miss, dey ye hae ony books on suicide?"
To which she stops doing her tasks, looks at him over the top of her glasses and says,
"Buggeroff, ye'll no bring it back!"

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:39:27 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 12/23/2016 10:28 PM, wrote:

[snip]

"Smart" TVs will draw more because there is a processor running all
the time and even loafing along,

What would the processor be DOING when the TV is off.

Depends who wrote the program. I've seen programs on my PC using a lot of CPU while idling.

it is still going to draw something.
Cranked up it can stream and process 1080 HD content so that makes it
a pretty powerful PC.

Cable boxes and DVRs do ned to be active when "off". I have measured the
power consumption of a cable box and found no measurable difference
between "on" and "off".

Our Sky TV boxes use a lot when "off" - very bad design.

BTW, these digital adapters I got recently don't have "off".

--
Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 12:46:24 -0000, wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 21:39:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/23/2016 10:28 PM, wrote:

[snip]

"Smart" TVs will draw more because there is a processor running all
the time and even loafing along,

What would the processor be DOING when the TV is off.

Smart TVs are not "off" unless you pull the plug.
Monitoring for software updates for one. It is still in there chugging
along, about like your PC when it is setting on the desk top and no
applications active.

My PC can use 400 watts more when thinking hard than when on and idling.

it is still going to draw something.
Cranked up it can stream and process 1080 HD content so that makes it
a pretty powerful PC.

Cable boxes and DVRs do ned to be active when "off". I have measured the
power consumption of a cable box and found no measurable difference
between "on" and "off".

BTW, these digital adapters I got recently don't have "off".

The TV uses less power because the display and audio amp is off, That
is about it.

--
A scientist from Texas A&M University has invented a bra that keeps women's breasts from jiggling and prevents the nipples from pushing through the fabric when cold weather sets in.
At a news conference announcing the invention, the scientist was taken outside by a group of cowboys, who then proceeded to kick the **** out of him.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 18:00:52 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Snip

If an EE knows how to wire a split switched receptacle, it is something (s)he
learned from a source unrelated to the degree they earned - unless perhaps it
was an elective. It sure wasn't an elective at RIT back when I attended.
Kinda like a mechanical engineer knowing how to change a tire. I've
known some who couldn't figure out how to change a refill in a
retractable ball-point pen - but they could design pretty intricate
stuff.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 19:01:05 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 18:02:05 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:47:25 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:15:31 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

You push it the way is isn't to turn it off, you don't have options. And I doubt most people would remember which way in a panic.

--
If your developed muscle memory is "off is down" you don't have to
think in an emergency

Muscles don't remember off and on.

They do remember actions tho.

No they don't. Your brain might if it's something you do every day. But how often do you switch a breaker?

If you are a service tech, several times a day and that is mostly who
unit disconnects are for.

The conversation was about someone turning something off in an emergency, which would be the house owner. In which case they'd se 10 breakers pointing one way, and move the offending one the other way.

--
How to interpret a Pregnancy Test kit:
Blue means not pregnant.
Pink means pregnant.
Brown means you had it in the wrong hole.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:46:06 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.
There was a big enough problem when they switched central Ontario
over from 25 to 60hz back around 1954???

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 21:53:11 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/24/2016 04:11 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Every lightswitch I've had has one wire going in each end. So you can
turn it round without needing longer wires.


Most (all IIRC) switches I know have the wires on one SIDE, so turning
the switch moves those terminals. Do you have a picture of a switch with
wires going in the ends?
Some British electrical devices are pretty strange looking to North
Americans - - -

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 00:02:50 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher frequencies because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a license as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators would also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit that spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at 12,600rpm or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high rpm so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight. I suppose I have some research to do. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster
It depends how many poles the AC generator has. Low cost 60Hz gensets
run at 3600RPM, while the better units generally run at 1800 - with
twice as many poles in the generator.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 18:00:52 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 3:01:10 PM UTC-5, Dave C wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 17:34:27 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 14:28:57 -0500, Dave C wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:51:57 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:57:23 -0500, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks

If you have to ask, my advice would be to call an electrician. You don't want to start a fire.

I asked because I did not know how to do a specific home wiring task.
I knew the solution was simple, well within my capabilities -your
snide comment ignored.

Just to set the record straight my advice was not snide. Not knowing your capabilities it was appropriate.

BTW: I am a degreed electrical engineer - though my area of
knowledge/ experience is in designing Electronic Warfare microwave
systems. You can ask me how to design/build a 70 dB DR DLVA 15 MHz
video BW device and I will assist you - as used in ESM RWR receivers

Snide mode activated. If you're a EE you must have been at the bottom of your class.

Snide mode deactivated.

Actually I graduated in the top 20% of an Ivy league University class,
as a EE. I was Director of Engineering at age 37, for a large defense
company. I retired at age 45, 23 years ago because I could !!

I merely asked for advise! Clearly I was not soliciting your USELESS
/Snide commentary !! I was fortunte, that other responders WERE
Helpful, with sage advise that I implimented successfully.

Oddly, as I have followed this site for many years, I may have found
your prior posts helpful. Too bad you find the need to .....

BTW: If you think it is Obvious, to cut the side connection, on the AC
outlet - I also know that you are are a LIAR.

Aside from being a-hole, Gordo is apparently also under the mistaken assumption
that the term "Electrical Engineering" somehow equates to Electrician. That
assumption is something that I have experienced quite often over the years.

I have a BSEE so I can state with 100% certainty that "residential house
wiring" was not part of the EE curriculum, at least not back in the mid-80's.

If an EE knows how to wire a split switched receptacle, it is something (s)he
learned from a source unrelated to the degree they earned - unless perhaps it
was an elective. It sure wasn't an elective at RIT back when I attended.

I am always averse to belittling another's credentials, ala Gordo the
Wannabe electrician? I felt Gordo was far off base, when challenging
my skills/ capability. He had no clue to my capabilities!! Knowing how
to Detect missles, then successfully Jam them is far different (EE
knowledge) than knowing when one needs to cut a ~$3 AC outet plug
shunt !

Likewise my EE classes did not include any house wiring classes. As
you so much better note - a EE degree does not mean one is educated in
home electical codes/ techniques. I would enjoy Gordo providing us
with a tutorial on Schrödinger's equation!! I am guessing that we are
both a tad rusty there?? (BUT it is ' fun" to look at my Sr year
Field/ Wave text book - and what I highlighted as Then Important !!).

I REALLY appreciated your Gordo slam. I also appreciatd the many
Positive responders, to a Valid wiring question. THANKS

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:07:47 -0000, wrote:

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 18:23:43 +0000, Bod wrote:

What is the one with the 2 round holes

Screw holes for fixing the socket to a patress.

My bad.
I looked around and I was thinking about the CEE/7 that is used on the
other side of the channel. I just knew we used to get a cord like that
with equipment here now and then, in addition to the US cord set. I
thought it was UK but I guess it was continental Europe.
When I cut off the plug, I also saw it was the european color code on
the wire (Blue, brown and green/yellow).

Where I used to work, the contractors confused the old UK wiring colours with then new EU wiring colours, and connected phase 1 and phase 2 to a 240V outlet circuit. A bunch of 40 computers expecting 240V got a lot more than that. Big insurance claim, small repair bill, net profit :-)

--
In 1999 the creators of KY Jelly created a new product. It was called "Y2K Jelly." It allowed you to get four digits in your date instead of two.

James Wilkinson Sword brought next idea :
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 14:52:40 -0000, FromTheRafters
wrote:

Uncle Monster explained on 12/25/2016 :
On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power
systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the
avionics
are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz
transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher
frequencies
because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a
license
as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm
guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require
shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators
would
also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit
that
spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at
12,600rpm
or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a
lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high
rpm
so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up
and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight.
I
suppose I have some research to do. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster

My first thought was skin effect, but that is a very small factor under
1000 Hz. I don't think propagation would be much of a factor either if
the systems were designed properly.

I'll go with 'tradition' as the major factor. Most 'end user' devices
here are engineered with filters to reject harmonics of the 60 cycle
system, or rely on the 60 cycle broadcast standard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB

Hearing a 50Hz mains hum isn't that bad, but imagine hearing a higher
frequency.

The MG sets provided power for many of the things I worked on. They
were 400Hz. It is true that any frequency above zero has 'some' skin
effect.

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:46:06 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.
There was a big enough problem when they switched central Ontario
over from 25 to 60hz back around 1954???

I recall reading about DC power still being run in some big cities because the elevators in many old buildings run on DC power. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Lift Monster

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 23:03:47 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 22:46:06 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.
There was a big enough problem when they switched central Ontario
over from 25 to 60hz back around 1954???

I recall reading about DC power still being run in some big cities because the elevators in many old buildings run on DC power. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Lift Monster

Sorry, but lifts make me think of:
https://youtu.be/WkkT2tII_GI?t=32s

--
If a cat joined the Red Cross, would it become a First-Aid Kit?

On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 04:48:21 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 2:03:46 PM UTC-6, Bod wrote:
On 23/12/2016 19:16, Dave C wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:57:23 -0500, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks


Thanks to the Many responder for the extensive, timely advise. With
your advise I now have a switched/ half hot outlet.

Is the word *advise*(in the context that you are using the word) instead
of *advice* the way it is spelt in the US?

Advice /ədˈvīs/, noun,"Guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative."

Advise /ədˈvīz/,verb advise 3rd person present advises past tense advised past participle advised gerund or present participle advising,"Offer suggestions about the best course of action to someone."

English is a funny, hard to learn language full of contradictions. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster

Must be harder with one of the ****ed up gender specific languages like German and French.

--
What is the difference between mechanical engineers and civil engineers?
Mechanical engineers build weapons and civil engineers build targets.

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 12:59:22 PM UTC-5, Tony944 wrote:
Â*

Â*

"DerbyDad03"Â* wrote in message
...

Â*

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 1:14:48 AM UTC-5, Tony944 wrote:

"Uncle Monster"Â* wrote in message q

...



On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 5:37:53 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson
Sword

wrote:

On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 19:57:23 -0000, Dave C
wrote:



I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall
switch. I

would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is
always

ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by
the wall

switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion
for one

socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split"
outlet

configuration was implemented.



Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks



What century are you living in?Â* All my sockets have
switches on them.

--





You do know that North American wiring standards, voltages and
frequency of

normal AC power for homes. business and industry are quite different
from

those of Europe? Your inductive hum is lower and more masculine. I
suppose

that's a point of pride for you. ヽ(ヅ)ノ



[8~{} Uncle Humming Monster



****Simple answers ****

€œCan I change€� duplex outlet that one half
works of the switch and other being

directly on the line:: €œNO€� unless you can run additional line, you
need

four wires 2 Hot one Neutral and one forÂ* Ground, Only then you
can split

the duplex, one output hook to hot line and one hook on the line
coming from

the switch. This is for 120 Voltage source USA standard
Receptacle.

Â*

That's wrong. If the source hot is already in the receptacle box then the
conversion

is fairly simple. You only need to run another wire if the source hot is in
the switch

box.

Â*

***No you are wrong "Look what man is asking
for"


I did see what he was asking for. That's why I said you were wrong.

Merry Christmas, but you are still wrong.

You do not know that he *has* to run another wire unless you know how his switched
receptacle is currently wired.

Do you know that?

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 4:06:05 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 00:02:50 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 9:46:57 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:13:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

The 50hz transformers are larger than 60hz transformers. Aircraft power systems often run on 400hz AC power and the transformers in the avionics are much smaller and lighter than the terrestrial 50 and 60 Hertz transformers. ?(?)?

http://www.engineering.com/Electroni...-and-60Hz.aspx

[8~{} Uncle Hertzian Monster

So why don't any countries use a much higher Hz?

Interesting question.
Tradition I imagine. Once you are locked into a frequency, changing is
very expensive. Motors and clocks won't work for one thing.
There might also be issues with transmission losses.

I was thinking the same thing about transmission losses at higher frequencies because I also have a background of working on RF equipment. I held a license as a broadcast engineer but did most of my work on two-way radio. I'm guessing a high frequency electrical distribution system would require shielding which would make it more expensive. I believe the generators would also have to spin faster. Every genset I ever installed was a 60hz unit that spun at 1,800rpm. I wonder if a 400hz genset would have to spin at 12,600rpm or have some sort of frequency converter system on a genset spinning at a lower rpm? The gas turbine APU's for aircraft can definately spin at high rpm so I'm wondering about the power units that the aircraft mechanics roll up and plug into the aircraft while they're working on them prior to flight. I suppose I have some research to do. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Power Monster
It depends how many poles the AC generator has. Low cost 60Hz gensets
run at 3600RPM, while the better units generally run at 1800 - with
twice as many poles in the generator.

Oh hell I forgot. The air cooled gensets I installed ran at 3,600rpm but my favorite were the quiet liquid cooled units that ran at 1,800rpm. We called the air cooled generators,"Screamers" because they were so dang loud even with an extra muffler. When I opened the housing while an air cooled unit was running under load, the noise was deafening. It's been some years ago but the last Generac genset I installed was one that used the new at the time Generac in house manufactured big V-twin air cooled engine. Before that Generac was using a Briggs & Stratton Vanguard V-twin air cooled engine in its smaller gensets. The larger gensets were using a 4 cyl inline liquid cooled Turkish Fiat engine until you got to the even larger gensets where there would be something like a Ford industrial engine. My favorite genset of all time is the old Onan air cooled inline four cylinder 15kw gensets running on natural gas. Me and my brother installed and serviced a number of them that provided backup power for grocery stores. Once a year, we'd change the oil and filter in those tough old *******s that ran for decades without problems. They were simple and didn't have fancy electronic computerized controls. Those old gensets just worked when they were needed. I'll bet that some of them we installed 30 years ago are still running when needed. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Spinning Monster

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 5:20:20 PM UTC-6, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 04:48:21 -0000, Uncle Monster wrote:

On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 2:03:46 PM UTC-6, Bod wrote:
On 23/12/2016 19:16, Dave C wrote:
On Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:57:23 -0500, Dave C wrote:

I have an AC wall socket, currently controlled by a wall switch. I
would like to change that outlet, so the one of the plugs is always
ON. The other plug would remaqin as is, ergo controlled by the wall
switch. I purchased a prior house with that configuartion for one
socket. Alas I never looked to see how that "split" outlet
configuration was implemented.

Can one inform me, how to make this change? Thanks


Thanks to the Many responder for the extensive, timely advise. With
your advise I now have a switched/ half hot outlet.

Is the word *advise*(in the context that you are using the word) instead
of *advice* the way it is spelt in the US?

Advice /ədˈvīs/, noun,"Guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative."

Advise /ədˈvīz/,verb advise 3rd person present advises past tense advised past participle advised gerund or present participle advising,"Offer suggestions about the best course of action to someone."

English is a funny, hard to learn language full of contradictions. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster

Must be harder with one of the ****ed up gender specific languages like German and French.
--


I think I was about 2 years old before I learned to speak English. Before that I was fluent in Baby Babble which I spoke with my siblings who had no control of their bladders and bowels which required an absorbent cloth wrapped around their posteriors secured with sharp pointed gizmos which were kept out of reach of little hands. I had nuns for teachers which was responsible for me speaking the correct form of American English which made me an outerspace alien among my peers at the government schools where Southern American English was spoken. I have never used the term,"y'all" unless I'm hamming it up and playing the part of a Hillbilly. Of course I'm fluent in Southern American English, I just don't use it unless I wish to amuse myself y'all. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 21:41:54 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 03:40:55 -0000, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 02:12:52 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:


In the UK we figured out how to put lights on the ceiling.

We have decorators here who think things like that are so "dated". No
matter what people have, they want something different.

I prefer things to be out of my way and work automatically.

I am OK with that but I don't want a big "We have ways to make you
talk" light in the ceiling. I like my walking around light to be more
diffuse.

On 12/25/2016 12:05 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

This is typical of the positions where the wires go in a UK single
lightswitch. If it's not part of a two way system (switch at each end
of a hall),

Called 3-way in the US. I think I understand why, but 2-way sounds more
reasonable.

one wire goes into the top hole, and the other into either
bottom hole. In fact you can change which way is on by which bottom
hole you use. If you pay attention to "TOP" and "FOR SP 1 WAY USE L2",
the the switch will be down for on.


Using the same switch for one-switch and two-switch installations,
making it easier to solve the wrong-orientation problem. The switches
would be more expensive that way.

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 21:45:23 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

Monitoring for software updates for one. It is still in there chugging
along, about like your PC when it is setting on the desk top and no
applications active.

My PC can use 400 watts more when thinking hard than when on and idling.

I am sure the processor in a smart TV is the same way.

On 12/25/2016 12:59 PM, wrote:

I am
just disappointed that Samsung can't take them directly from my file
server without that WM business.


I would like to be able to play videos from my network. What "WM
business" would that be?

BTW, I currently have a WDTV unit that will play audio/video from any PC
with SAMBA (Windows file sharing).

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

On 12/25/2016 01:01 PM, wrote:

[snip]

If you are a service tech, several times a day and that is mostly who
unit disconnects are for.


I used to work in a place where the breakers (Cutler-Hammer IIRC) were
used as switches.

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

On 12/25/2016 03:26 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Hearing a 50Hz mains hum isn't that bad, but imagine hearing a higher
frequency.


Once I had a TV where the horizontal frequency (almost 16KHz) was
audible. It was unpleasant to be around for very long. IIRC, I sold it
to someone with hearing loss who couldn't hear it.

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

On 12/25/2016 03:42 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

I thought only cats were stupid enough to use pathways (as in the middle
of the hall) to sleep.


Cats like the one I had, Lilly (the littlest cat
http://notstupid.us/include/picviewe...nything/cat.3).

When my dog wasn't sleeping next to the bed, he was often sleeping in
the hall between my room and the bathroom. Its still hard to see a black
dog in a dimly-lit hall.

--
Currently: happy holidays (Sunday December 25, 2016 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"When a clear head leads the way, a warm heart can safely follow." --
Marilyn Vos Savant

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 22:12:44 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/25/2016 12:59 PM, wrote:

I am
just disappointed that Samsung can't take them directly from my file
server without that WM business.


I would like to be able to play videos from my network. What "WM
business" would that be?

BTW, I currently have a WDTV unit that will play audio/video from any PC
with SAMBA (Windows file sharing).

WM= Windows Media Center.
I am not a fan. I imagine your SAMBA will talk to your TV if it is
part of the media center library function.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 22:14:05 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

I used to work in a place where the breakers (Cutler-Hammer IIRC) were
used as switches.


As long as they are marked SWD that is fine. Most molded case breakers
are

Mark Lloyd explained on 12/25/2016 :
On 12/25/2016 03:26 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]


Hearing a 50Hz mains hum isn't that bad, but imagine hearing a higher
frequency.


Once I had a TV where the horizontal frequency (almost 16KHz) was audible. It
was unpleasant to be around for very long. IIRC, I sold it to someone with
hearing loss who couldn't hear it.

I could hear most of them. I could also hear the detectors in stores
back when they were sonic. Not anymore though, and not because the
technology has changed, but because my hearing has changed.

On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 1:52:08 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, December 24, 2016 at 8:37:24 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 02:28:22 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

All of the switched outlets I ever wired had the feed at the outlet not the switch. The power to the outlet was daisy chained to the other outlets in the room and a piece of Romex was run to the switch to control the power to one or both sides of the duplex receptacle. Having the feed at the receptacle means you only have to break the hot tab to separate the sides and switch one of them. ?(?)?


The code now requires a neutral at every switch location so you may
see things wired differently. It is because there are so many "smart"
switches coming down the pipe that need a neutral.

Easy, run 14/3 w/ground to every single pole switch or 14/4 w/ground to all 3-way switches. Most of the wiring I did was commercial and industrial so I ran a lot of conduit. I left a pull string in all my conduit runs then this evil stuff called MC cable came along and made commercial wiring TOO easy. Man I ran a lot of that stuff before I wound up gimpy. ヽ(ヅ)ノ


Why would you need to run 14/3 to every switch, when 14/2 already provides
both a hot and neutral to switches that are connected in the most common
way, ie from the source to the switch, then to the receptacle from there?
Every single pole switch in every house I've lived in has been wired that
way. The problems start where you don't have a neutral at the switch when
it's done backwards, ie source to receptacle, then to switch or a 3-way
switch that isn't connected to the source.

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 12:59:22 PM UTC-5, Tony944 wrote:


€œCan I change€� duplex outlet that one half
works of the switch and other being

directly on the line:: €œNO€� unless you can run additional line, you
need

four wires 2 Hot one Neutral and one forÂ* Ground, Only then you
can split

the duplex, one output hook to hot line and one hook on the line
coming from

the switch. This is for 120 Voltage source USA standard
Receptacle.

Â*

That's wrong. If the source hot is already in the receptacle box then the
conversion

is fairly simple. You only need to run another wire if the source hot is in
the switch

box.

Â*

***No you are wrong "Look what man is asking
for"



DerbyDad, as usual, is 100% right. He answered the OP's question correctly
and even supplied the diagrams. If the OP has a receptacle where it's
wired with the power source going to the receptacle first, then to the
switch, then no additional wire needs to be run. The diagram showed
exactly that. It's only if the power goes to the switch first that an
additional wire is needed. Around here at least, that is the most common
configuration. We don't know how it was wired in the OP's case, he
did not say., but given that the OP says he's got it done already,
I suspect he in fact didn't have to run a new cable, so it sounds like
he probably had a hot at the receptacle.

On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 4:46:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 18:00:52 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Snip

If an EE knows how to wire a split switched receptacle, it is something (s)he
learned from a source unrelated to the degree they earned - unless perhaps it
was an elective.

I doubt you have an EE degree, but if you do, are you telling us that
where you got it, they had to instruct you on every single possible thing
you will ever see? Where I got my degree, they taught us to think like
an engineer, use electrical principles from Ohms Law to Maxwell's equations
and apply them to the real world. It takes nothing more than the most
basic understanding of electricity to be able to figure out how to wire
a split-receptacle, something I already knew before I entered high school,
let alone college. And no, no one had to specifically instruct me in how
it worked. I saw one, figured it out in maybe a minute.



It sure wasn't an elective at RIT back when I attended.

If you graduated from there, they should be embarrassed.

On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 11:29:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 20:12:44 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:


The old "Instant On" tube type TV sets used a lot of power on standby to keep the CRT and vacuum tube filaments half powered so the set would come on more or less instantly. My LED TV might draw a few milliamps when it's off to keep the IR remote control circuitry active so it would be silly to unplug or kill the power to it.
?(€¢?€¢)?

[8~{} Uncle Instant Monster

"Smart" TVs will draw more because there is a processor running all
the time and even loafing along, it is still going to draw something.
Cranked up it can stream and process 1080 HD content so that makes it
a pretty powerful PC.

I would suspect that any digital TV today, even the most basic, has multiple
CPUs doing a variety of functions. Even in a PC, the display card or
display processor on the MB was one of the highest consumers of power.
Digital TV would be similar. So, I wouldn't be surprised that there isn't
much difference in power with a smart PC. How much power does it take to
watch a movie on a smartphone? Sure, it will run the battery down faster,
but obviously it doesn't take 500W either.

Some spec sheets would perhaps have the answers.

On Friday, December 23, 2016 at 7:53:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 00:22:53 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

It sounds like the same rule there. The light on the ceiling is a
"luminaire" but you can also just have a receptacle on that switch.
(for a lamp) Ceiling lights were out of fashion here for a while so
the code was amended. Now everyone wants a fan with a light in it so
the code had to upgrade those ceiling boxes to handle a 50 pound fan.

There shouldn't be a code. Do what you want in your own house, or there is no freedom. You guys built America so you were the land of the free, then you let your government dictate to you how you operate your own ****ing lights!

--

I agree but it is what it is.
If it makes you feel better, the code really only affects builders.
Once you move in you will never see an inspector again if you never
get a permit for anything.
I seldom do and when I do I get to the place where they will sign off
the permit as fast as I can and then do what I want.
I believe in the intent of the code, safety, but I am willing to avoid
some of the BS if it is not dangerous.

Plus most people are not spec'ing out there own house and having it built.
So, you'd be stuck with whatever the builder decided to do, whatever corners
they cut to save a buck, etc. And there would be even more variation in
what you wind up with from home to home. All in all, I think code is a
good idea, including the new reqt to have a neutral at all switch locations.
How many people have been in here over the years with problems trying to
use a smart switch like X10 at a switch where there is no neutral? How
many man hours have been wasted finding out that they can't work with
an LED, CFL, etc? All that is solved with a neutral there and it's no
big deal to run when you're installing a new circuit.

trader_4 wrote on 12/26/2016 :
On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 4:46:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 18:00:52 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Snip

If an EE knows how to wire a split switched receptacle, it is something
(s)he learned from a source unrelated to the degree they earned - unless
perhaps it was an elective.

I doubt you have an EE degree, but if you do, are you telling us that
where you got it, they had to instruct you on every single possible thing
you will ever see? Where I got my degree, they taught us to think like
an engineer, use electrical principles from Ohms Law to Maxwell's equations
and apply them to the real world. It takes nothing more than the most
basic understanding of electricity to be able to figure out how to wire
a split-receptacle, something I already knew before I entered high school,
let alone college. And no, no one had to specifically instruct me in how
it worked. I saw one, figured it out in maybe a minute.



It sure wasn't an elective at RIT back when I attended.

If you graduated from there, they should be embarrassed.

I disagree. When I first learned about electricity and Ohm's Law, my
instructor used the 'plumbing analogy' and mentioned that it is not
exactly correct but 'good enough for most electrical work'. If you
wanted to go into physics or electronics it has many failures.

For one thing, current (measured in amps) does *not* flow through a
conductor even though almost all electrical people will insist that it
does. Current is the *rate* at which *charge* flows and the rate
doesn't *go* anywhere. The number of charge *carriers* (usually, but
not always electrons) past a certain point (or cross sectional area)
can be counted and multiplied by the amount of charge each carries, to
get the current.

Understanding Ohm's Law and/or Maxwell's equations may be a
prerequisite for your chosen profession, but that doesn't mean everyone
who knows them must also know how to wire household switches. There are
other endeavors within the electricity fields than construction work.
You would be completely bamboozled by ECM gear and someone who learned
about it from the ground up (basic E & E) might assume, like you do,
that the things they learned apply to all other fields, but they don't.

On Monday, December 26, 2016 at 10:41:22 AM UTC-5, FromTheRafters wrote:
trader_4 wrote on 12/26/2016 :
On Sunday, December 25, 2016 at 4:46:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2016 18:00:52 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

Snip

If an EE knows how to wire a split switched receptacle, it is something
(s)he learned from a source unrelated to the degree they earned - unless
perhaps it was an elective.

I doubt you have an EE degree, but if you do, are you telling us that
where you got it, they had to instruct you on every single possible thing
you will ever see? Where I got my degree, they taught us to think like
an engineer, use electrical principles from Ohms Law to Maxwell's equations
and apply them to the real world. It takes nothing more than the most
basic understanding of electricity to be able to figure out how to wire
a split-receptacle, something I already knew before I entered high school,
let alone college. And no, no one had to specifically instruct me in how
it worked. I saw one, figured it out in maybe a minute.



It sure wasn't an elective at RIT back when I attended.

If you graduated from there, they should be embarrassed.

I disagree. When I first learned about electricity and Ohm's Law, my
instructor used the 'plumbing analogy' and mentioned that it is not
exactly correct but 'good enough for most electrical work'. If you
wanted to go into physics or electronics it has many failures.

Where does Ohms Law fail with regard to a switched outlet? It doesn't.
Neither do Kirchoff's Laws, which are all that's needed to understand
a simple switched circuit.



For one thing, current (measured in amps) does *not* flow through a
conductor even though almost all electrical people will insist that it
does. Current is the *rate* at which *charge* flows and the rate
doesn't *go* anywhere. The number of charge *carriers* (usually, but
not always electrons) past a certain point (or cross sectional area)
can be counted and multiplied by the amount of charge each carries, to
get the current.


A silly nit which has nothing to do with anything. Again, what does that have
to do with wiring a switched outlet?



Understanding Ohm's Law and/or Maxwell's equations may be a
prerequisite for your chosen profession, but that doesn't mean everyone
who knows them must also know how to wire household switches.

If you know them and really understand them, then there has to be
something wrong with you or how you were taught that you can have
a degree in EE and not be able to apply Ohms Law and the most
elementary of circuit principles to solve the problem of how a
switched outlet works. Good grief, has all of America gone dumb?
Some of you seem to think that the purpose of college and an EE degree
is to teach you how to do specific tasks. It's not. It's to teach
science, physics and engineering that you can then apply to all the
new things you encounter. That is what engineering is, the application
of science to actual, real world problems. What you are suggesting is
that colleges are there to train essentially robots, that can only deal
with that which they've explicitly been shown.




There are
other endeavors within the electricity fields than construction work.
You would be completely bamboozled by ECM gear and someone who learned
about it from the ground up (basic E & E) might assume, like you do,
that the things they learned apply to all other fields, but they don't.

I never said electricity, Ohms Law, Maxwell;s equations, etc apply to
anything other than electricity. The switched outlet here is a very
basic circuit that anyone who has an EE should be able to figure out.
It's irrelevant that the circuit is in a house.
And if you can't, then you or your educational system have failed.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2016 22:14:05 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/25/2016 01:01 PM, wrote:

[snip]

If you are a service tech, several times a day and that is mostly who
unit disconnects are for.


I used to work in a place where the breakers (Cutler-Hammer IIRC) were
used as switches.
There are breakers that aree rated for switch use, and ones that are
not.