Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

"car13" wrote in message
...
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if
what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The
only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V,
max 14.7W"


It should be as safe as any lights. Hopefully the built in transformer will
have a fuse internal to it rated for the lights.

On 2/22/2016 11:53 AM, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what
I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only
input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max
14.7W"

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... : )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 2:03:59 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2016 11:53 AM, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what
I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only
input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max
14.7W"

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... : )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

IDK exactly what "behind an existing 20A outlet really means", but as
far as the code goes, I think you probably have a point regarding code
and connecting it to one of the 20A appliance circuits, which are supposed
to be only for plug-in appliances. However, it
is perfectly safe and for just 14W worth of LED lights, I know what I'd do.....
Unless some other circuit is easily available, of course.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:53:48 PM UTC-5, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

What do you mean by "behind an outlet"?

On 02/22/2016 12:32 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:53:48 PM UTC-5, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure
if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare
leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote
switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?
The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs
are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp
outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

What do you mean by "behind an outlet"?

He means wiring them into the wire nuts behind a regular outlet, ie not
wiring them to a plug that is plugged into the outlet.

Jon

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

In that case...

Safe? Probably. Code? Probably not.

See trader_4's response for the reason.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

On 2/22/2016 7:33 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:47:54 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 2:03:59 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2016 11:53 AM, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what
I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only
input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max
14.7W"

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... : )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

IDK exactly what "behind an existing 20A outlet really means", but as
far as the code goes, I think you probably have a point regarding code
and connecting it to one of the 20A appliance circuits, which are supposed
to be only for plug-in appliances. However, it
is perfectly safe and for just 14W worth of LED lights, I know what I'd do.....
Unless some other circuit is easily available, of course.

Trader is right about the code. I don't see a huge problem but it is
not really legal. If you have a general lighting circuit in there that
would be the one to use and you can even make a case that it is legal
on with the dish washer or disposal. Not the fridge

We ran a separate drop off the lighting circuit feeding a pair of
wall switches. The wall switches, in turn, feed two halves of a split
duplex receptacle located above the sink (behind the sconce -- if
that's what it's called?). There, installed a pair of power supplies
the outputs of which then are routed down through the walls to connect
to the under-cabinet light strips.

In this way, we can service the power supplies, adjust intensity, replace
them, etc. without having to worry about "will it physically fit" at
some future date. And, puts the switches controlling them in a comparable
place as the other light switches for the room.

[considered "remoting" the intensity control but figured we could
probably live with one setting. currently set for "workspace lighting",
i.e. bright. If we later decided we wanted to use them as a dim sort
of nightlight, we'd tweek that setting]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer. The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues, perhaps
because of aesthetics.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:53:42 -0800 (PST), car13
wrote:

Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads

I missed this part. Bare leads or not, buy a plug and connect it to
the leads. You probably need a plug with screw connectors. Do they
still sell the small 2-prong ones?

Yeah, but nowhere near as many styles as befo
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-0DE/202077705
and maybe these two
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-0WP/100356964
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-00W/202077684
but the video in all 3 cases is unrelated to the plug, so I can't tell
if either of these have screws inside. Probably not. Forget I
mentioned them. And if it says Quick in the name, probably won't work
either.

It's good to save the cords from things one throws away, so you can
solder a plug and a few inches of cord onto bare wires or when a plug
fails. I have a box of 20 of these already, in various colors.

intended to be hardwired inside the wall,

Maybe. But maybe meant to be sold in Europe too so they dont' know
what plug to put on the end.

and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V".

This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling
something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through
the wall plate. I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom
speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for
when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is
ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.

The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.

**Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better
than that.

Thanks!

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:27:55 -0500, Micky
wrote:

Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be?

I partly take this back. The big rubber plugs that go on industrial
extensions cords would look bad almost anywhere -- I agree --
and those are still easy to get. I guess if that is all there were,
that's what I'd use. But HD still sells one model that's small.

And I've been planning ahead so I have extra plugs, that I bought to
be sure of having one when I need it; I have two really thin plugs
meant to go behind a dresser, so they're less than 1/2" thick, with
the wire coming out of the side**; I have the cords with plugs
permanently attached: and before I throw anything in the trash, I take
the cord, or the plug if it unscrews. I'm hoping to go to Guatemala
within a couple years, and I think I'll see what they sell. I like
shopping for hardware when I'm out of the country, if there's
something I need.

**I'm saving these for where space is a problem, but if needed I could
use them elsewhere and just remember where I'm using them in case I
actually do need thin ones. They dont use screws, just metal prongs,
but they work with standard lamp cord (which is also becoming less
common.)

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:32:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

They will light the space inside the wall, between the 2 studs on each
side of that outlet. Maybe he could then put a glass block or two into
that wall so the light can be seen.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics.

I know you took this back later (partly), but even to have made this comment
in the first place was almost enough to make me realize that this conversation
probably isn't worth having with you. However, I'll use it as teaching
moment.

Kitchens are often the most important room in the house and some people
put more money into the blending of aesthetics and functionality in a
kitchen than they do in any other room.

How bad can a plug be?

Going back to the aesthetics issue, you have no idea what the wires on the
transformer look like. What if they look like this?

http://cdn.instructables.com/FQT/ORX...55S5.LARGE.jpg

Are you just going to put a plug on these wires? I hope not, but since
kitchen aesthetics don't matter to you, maybe you would.

As far as extending the bare lead wires with a spare cord, where would
store the connections? The wires nuts would have to go in a junction box.
After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
junction box so you can plug it in?

Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may
be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for
appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
so I could live with it.

I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for
receptacles is relatively new. If he has an older house, not subject
to that at the time, IDK if it really is a code violation, ie what says
that he can't tap into an existing circuit? He's adding an LED, not adding
counter receptacles.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:24:31 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:


This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling
something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through
the wall plate.

I can pretty much guarantee that the install instructions don't say
to do it that way. The correct way would be to wire it into a
junction box and I would hope that's what the instructions would say.



I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom
speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for
when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is
ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.

The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.


Wrong concept here. What you look at is *power* on both sides.
The secondary is 15W, that means ideally, the primary is 15W,
giving a current of 125ma at 120V. It will be a bit more than
that because of losses, but that's the conversion concept.

Using your method, a battery charger that supplies 25A, would be
pulling less than 50A? It sure would be less than 50A, because it's
on the order of 2.5A @ 120V



**Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better
than that.


See above. You're using equal currents on both sides, when it's
actually equal power.

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle.

I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical
perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the
connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.

I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar
to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then
the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the
receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required
to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course)
and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the
receptacle box.

Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle
circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from
the transformer back to the fixture itself.

It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more
code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new
circuit if need be (and possible).

Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?

That may
be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for
appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
so I could live with it.

I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for
receptacles is relatively new. If he has an older house, not subject
to that at the time, IDK if it really is a code violation, ie what says
that he can't tap into an existing circuit? He's adding an LED, not adding
counter receptacles.

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle.

I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical
perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the
connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.

I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar
to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then
the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the
receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required
to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course)
and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the
receptacle box.

Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle
circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from
the transformer back to the fixture itself.

It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more
code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new
circuit if need be (and possible).

Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?


I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle.

I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical
perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the
connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.

I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar
to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then
the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the
receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required
to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course)
and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the
receptacle box.

Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle
circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from
the transformer back to the fixture itself.

It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more
code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new
circuit if need be (and possible).

Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?


I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.

OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
not leave much capacity for other devices
which might be plugged in.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:49:30 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first
post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle.

I'm still trying to picture how that would be done from a physical
perspective. Assuming the GFCI is in a standard receptacle box, the
connections would need to made inside the wall and inside the box.

I guess I'd like to see his "bare lead" transformer, but if it's similar
to the one that I linked to, it has to be mounted someplace and then
the wires have to somehow have to pass through the wall and into the
receptacle box. It sounds like flush mount junction box would be required
to accept the wires from the transformer (with a proper fitting of course)
and then Romex would need to be run from that junction box to the
receptacle box.

Perhaps there is an existing (remote) junction box for the receptacle
circuit that could be used, but then the wires need to be run from
the transformer back to the fixture itself.

It seems like we are adding more complexity, and therefore possibly more
code issues, than just using an existing lighting circuit or even new
circuit if need be (and possible).

Am I missing something simple on the "physical installation" front?


I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.


Well, in the previous post did include the wire in type too,
but it wasn't one where the transformer is part of a panel.
I missed that part. One would think that such a product
would either have a junction box that's part of it or else
be made to mount on a box like a light fixture would.
Neither would seem suited to using it for cabinet
lighting. Which is probably why the ones I've seen have
been like the ones I described.




OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

We really need a pic of the actual unit to see what it actually is.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 05:27:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:24:31 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...
The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.


Wrong concept here.

Not wrong concept but a calculation that didn't match my concept.
Thanks for the correction,

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
not leave much capacity for other devices
which might be plugged in.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.


What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 05:18:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first

For the record, FWIW, I was really just asking Derby because he got my
goat.

post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may
be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for

If it's against code, I'm not counting it as an alternative.

We're talking about a wire coming straight out of the wall, from an
opening in a junction box within the wall, aren't we? How could that
not be a code violation?

appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
so I could live with it.

I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for

In your other reply to me, iiuc in place of a wire coming out of the
wall, from a junction box within the wall, you were suggesting a
surface mount junction box. I think that would be less aethetically
pleasing than a plug on a wire.

receptacles is relatively new. If he has an older house, not subject
to that at the time, IDK if it really is a code violation, ie what says
that he can't tap into an existing circuit? He's adding an LED, not adding
counter receptacles.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics.

I know you took this back later (partly),

Twice. Once in the next two words and once in the follow-up post.

To be honest, "Screw aesthetics" was directed to you, not the OP. I
know he's not going to ignore aesthetics and I wouldn't either, but
you got my goat with the absurd implication that a plug on the end of
a wire could be unaesthetic, based perhaps on the absurd idea that a
wire he would find** on his transformer could be too ugly for a plug.
Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.

**An industrial strength extension cord would look bad plugged into a
kitchen outlet, but you won't find that on a 25 watt device.

but even to have made this comment
in the first place was almost enough to make me realize that this conversation
probably isn't worth having with you. However, I'll use it as teaching
moment.

Kitchens are often the most important room in the house and some people
put more money into the blending of aesthetics and functionality in a
kitchen than they do in any other room.

How bad can a plug be?

Going back to the aesthetics issue, you have no idea what the wires on the
transformer look like. What if they look like this?

http://cdn.instructables.com/FQT/ORX...55S5.LARGE.jpg

What's wrong with them? I'd put on the plug whose url I gave in the
other post (in reply to his first post). If that didn't leave a long
enough wire to mount the box somewhere decent, like under the cabinets
hidden by the cabinet skirt (where I have my extra light) I'd add some
wire too.

Are you just going to put a plug on these wires? I hope not, but since
kitchen aesthetics don't matter to you, maybe you would.

As far as extending the bare lead wires with a spare cord, where would
store the connections?

What connections?

The wires nuts

What wire nuts? If the wire is not long enough, I'd solder more wire
to it, with the connections offset from each other so there is no
chance of shorting and so the bulge would be smaller, though longer.

would have to go in a junction box.
After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
junction box so you can plug it in?

What junction box?

Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 1:11:32 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 05:18:00 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics. How bad can a plug be? Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

The alternative would be to do what he apparently suggested in his first

For the record, FWIW, I was really just asking Derby because he got my
goat.

post, wire it into an existing circuit that feeds a receptacle. That may
be a code violation, because current code requires 20A circuits for

If it's against code, I'm not counting it as an alternative.

We're talking about a wire coming straight out of the wall, from an
opening in a junction box within the wall, aren't we? How could that
not be a code violation?


The OP didn't say that was how he was going to do it. It wasn't clear
what he was going to do, unless you're a mind reader:

"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

The possible code violation I was addressing was the issue that Don
brought up. Current code requires dedicated 20A circuits for kitchen
appliances. If it's a circuit that was subject to that, then according
to Don, adding some other wired in load is not code compliant. And I
think he's probably right, but I'm not going to go look it up.


appliances to be plugged in and AFAIK, you can't put other loads on it.
But it's a 14W LED and insignificant as far as effecting the ampacity,
so I could live with it.

I'm not sure it even is a code problem. The 20A circuit reqt for

In your other reply to me, iiuc in place of a wire coming out of the
wall, from a junction box within the wall, you were suggesting a
surface mount junction box. I think that would be less aethetically
pleasing than a plug on a wire.


I never suggested a surface mount junction box.

If you want another solution, how about finding one of the many
other LED alternatives that have transformers that you can plug
in? Or at least a transformer that is separate from the led fixture?

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:53:42 -0800 (PST), car13
wrote:

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads

I really hope those "Bare Leads" are really insulated wire!!!
Otherwise there could be a serious fire hazzard as code violation!

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 1:13:06 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics.

I know you took this back later (partly),

Twice. Once in the next two words and once in the follow-up post.

To be honest, "Screw aesthetics" was directed to you, not the OP. I
know he's not going to ignore aesthetics and I wouldn't either, but
you got my goat with the absurd implication that a plug on the end of
a wire could be unaesthetic, based perhaps on the absurd idea that a
wire he would find** on his transformer could be too ugly for a plug.

Why do you consider that an absurd implication? He specifically said:

"with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall"

not

"with bare leads intended to have a plug attached"

Neither of us know what those "bare leads" look like, but I'm leaning
towards them *not* looking like the cord on my KitchenAid Artisan stand
mixer. Since he said the leads were "intended to be hardwired inside the
wall" we can be pretty sure that they did not use an appliance cord, because
appliance cords are not intended to be hardwired inside the wall.

Of course, his description could be wrong. Neither of us know, therefore
my "implication" is no more absurd than your idea of just soldering on
cord with a plug.

A picture would, as always, be helpful.

Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like. Again, based on his use of the
words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
even be to code.


**An industrial strength extension cord would look bad plugged into a
kitchen outlet, but you won't find that on a 25 watt device.

but even to have made this comment
in the first place was almost enough to make me realize that this conversation
probably isn't worth having with you. However, I'll use it as teaching
moment.

Kitchens are often the most important room in the house and some people
put more money into the blending of aesthetics and functionality in a
kitchen than they do in any other room.

How bad can a plug be?

Going back to the aesthetics issue, you have no idea what the wires on the
transformer look like. What if they look like this?

http://cdn.instructables.com/FQT/ORX...55S5.LARGE.jpg

What's wrong with them? I'd put on the plug whose url I gave in the
other post (in reply to his first post). If that didn't leave a long
enough wire to mount the box somewhere decent, like under the cabinets
hidden by the cabinet skirt (where I have my extra light) I'd add some
wire too.

Are you just going to put a plug on these wires? I hope not, but since
kitchen aesthetics don't matter to you, maybe you would.

As far as extending the bare lead wires with a spare cord, where would
store the connections?

What connections?

The wires nuts

What wire nuts? If the wire is not long enough, I'd solder more wire
to it, with the connections offset from each other so there is no
chance of shorting and so the bulge would be smaller, though longer.


would have to go in a junction box.
After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
junction box so you can plug it in?

What junction box?

It's obvious that you are picturing a totally different set of leads coming
out the device than I am.

Once again, a picture would be, as always, helpful.


Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

That is the only answer I can give until I know what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" actually look like. In the end, that will
still be answer, but it will probably have some more details added once I
know what he is working with.

On 2/23/2016 12:19 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
not leave much capacity for other devices
which might be plugged in.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.


What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.


The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.

THAT 15 amps.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

.... you owe me big time friend.

Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
minutes at my precinct. Shish.

When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
paying attention or what?

I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.

P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
in June, please.

Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/23/2016 12:19 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
not leave much capacity for other devices
which might be plugged in.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.


What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.


The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.

THAT 15 amps.

--


Yes, you're right. Funny no one else commented on that. IDK what
that's all about.

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
... you owe me big time friend.

Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
minutes at my precinct. Shish.

When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
paying attention or what?

I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.

P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
in June, please.

Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)

If we could just ban the use of the words "amazing" and "tremendous"
we could shut up the whole Trump family. I was watching Donald give
a 2 min interview and he used one 3 times, the other twice.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 8:26:10 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
... you owe me big time friend.

Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
minutes at my precinct. Shish.

When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
paying attention or what?

I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.

P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
in June, please.

Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)

If we could just ban the use of the words "amazing" and "tremendous"
we could shut up the whole Trump family. I was watching Donald give
a 2 min interview and he used one 3 times, the other twice.

Guys...please.

It would be "amazing" and "tremendous" if we could limit the discussion
in this thread to the installation of the LED fixture.

On 02/23/2016 05:32 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

[snip]

What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.


The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.

THAT 15 amps.


So you have a 1800 watt (15A * 120V) light. Maybe it's a warming cabinet
(to keep food warm). Put in a dedicated circuit for that.

--
"I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for His reputation
if He didn't." -- Jules Renard

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:58:34 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 1:13:06 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics.

I know you took this back later (partly),

Twice. Once in the next two words and once in the follow-up post.

To be honest, "Screw aesthetics" was directed to you, not the OP. I
know he's not going to ignore aesthetics and I wouldn't either, but
you got my goat with the absurd implication that a plug on the end of
a wire could be unaesthetic, based perhaps on the absurd idea that a
wire he would find** on his transformer could be too ugly for a plug.

Why do you consider that an absurd implication? He specifically said:

"with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall"

not

"with bare leads intended to have a plug attached"

Neither of us know what those "bare leads" look like, but I'm leaning
towards them *not* looking like the cord on my KitchenAid Artisan stand
mixer. Since he said the leads were "intended to be hardwired inside the
wall" we can be pretty sure that they did not use an appliance cord, because
appliance cords are not intended to be hardwired inside the wall.

This is all so silly since he could solve most of this by posting back
and addressing our questions, implied and explicit.

But I took "intended" to refer to a drawing or instructions that came
with the light and nothing to do with the wires' actual appearance. If
you consider that possibility, we might have opinions closer to each
other than they are now.

Of course, his description could be wrong. Neither of us know, therefore
my "implication" is no more absurd than your idea of just soldering on
cord with a plug.

A picture would, as always, be helpful.

True.

Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.

Well, they don't look like alligators. They look like wires.

Again, based on his use of the
words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
even be to code.

What in the code prevents connecting two 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires to
a plug?
...........

would have to go in a junction box.
After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
junction box so you can plug it in?

What junction box?

It's obvious that you are picturing a totally different set of leads coming
out the device than I am.

Once again, a picture would be, as always, helpful.


Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

So as yet, you don't have an alternative.

That is the only answer I can give until I know what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" actually look like. In the end, that will
still be answer, but it will probably have some more details added once I
know what he is working with.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 12:07:48 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:58:34 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 1:13:06 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer.

Yeah, I missed that when replying to his second post, but then I read
his first post again.

The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues,

What phyical issues could those be?

perhaps
because of aesthetics.

It's the kitchen. Screw aesthetics.

I know you took this back later (partly),

Twice. Once in the next two words and once in the follow-up post.

To be honest, "Screw aesthetics" was directed to you, not the OP. I
know he's not going to ignore aesthetics and I wouldn't either, but
you got my goat with the absurd implication that a plug on the end of
a wire could be unaesthetic, based perhaps on the absurd idea that a
wire he would find** on his transformer could be too ugly for a plug.

Why do you consider that an absurd implication? He specifically said:

"with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall"

not

"with bare leads intended to have a plug attached"

Neither of us know what those "bare leads" look like, but I'm leaning
towards them *not* looking like the cord on my KitchenAid Artisan stand
mixer. Since he said the leads were "intended to be hardwired inside the
wall" we can be pretty sure that they did not use an appliance cord, because
appliance cords are not intended to be hardwired inside the wall.

This is all so silly since he could solve most of this by posting back
and addressing our questions, implied and explicit.

But I took "intended" to refer to a drawing or instructions that came
with the light and nothing to do with the wires' actual appearance. If
you consider that possibility, we might have opinions closer to each
other than they are now.

Of course, his description could be wrong. Neither of us know, therefore
my "implication" is no more absurd than your idea of just soldering on
cord with a plug.

A picture would, as always, be helpful.

True.

Most people with kitchens have things with plugs plugged in, the
toaster, the blender, a George Foreman grill, a radio, a tv, a
microwave, a Mixmaster, one or more device chargers, and maybe other
things (an electric rotisserie?). Putting a plug on his cord will
not detract from the appearance of the kitchen.

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.

Well, they don't look like alligators. They look like wires.

True. They might even look like the wires that come with a bathroom fan.
3 loose wires (18g?) one black, one white, one green. Maybe it's a short
run of Romex. Do you feel that putting a plug on those types of wires
"will not detract from the appearance of the kitchen?"

If you think that either of those will be an OK look, then we have nothing
further to discuss. If you agree with me that that that would not be aesthetically pleasing, then I repeat:

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.


Again, based on his use of the
words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
even be to code.

What in the code prevents connecting two 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires to
a plug?

I don't know. That's why I said *may*. You keep making statements based on
your assumptions of what he is dealing with and I keep leaving it wide open
until we know the details. You have no clue what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like, yet you keep saying things like
"Put a plug on them! Solder on longer wires! It'll be beautiful! It will
meet code!"

That make no sense.

..........

would have to go in a junction box.
After you've done that, how do you plan to have the cord come out of the
junction box so you can plug it in?

What junction box?

It's obvious that you are picturing a totally different set of leads coming
out the device than I am.

Once again, a picture would be, as always, helpful.


Or a
6-in-1? What's your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

That's a total non-answer. What is your alternative?

My alternative is to wire it per code and keep aesthetics in mind as I'm
planning the project.

So as yet, you don't have an alternative.

That is the only answer I can give until I know what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" actually look like. In the end, that will
still be answer, but it will probably have some more details added once I
know what he is working with.

As I said before, I'm not going to jump to a detail explanation of an
alternative until I have all of the facts. My stated alternative covers
the general situation based on the facts known at this time. To code and
aesthetically pleasing.

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

posted for all of us...



Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")

You have to run those 129v leads into some kind of jbox. The jbox must be
fed. The jbox cannot be inside the wall but it can be mounted creatively.

J ad a detailed reply written but the power went out so others can look at
your pix and help guide you. I would just use a plug to an existing outlet.

--
Tekkie