On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 2:31:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

I'd wire it in as you suggested. As long as the connections are
inside the box the receptacle is in and the max number of wires,
ie fill of the box isn't exceeded, I don't see a problem with it.

More clarification:

The LED panel is definitely rated for a 15amp circuit. Basically, I am not sure if it is ok to run it on a 20amp circuit, and with the wiring method I drew in the diagram.

My questions we
1) Is it to code?
2) Is it safe?
3) If I wire it to the 20A circuit, does that mean I'm supplying 120V 20A to it?
4) What happens if I supply 20A, when it's only rated to receive up to 15A?

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 05:24:04 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 6:32:00 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/23/2016 12:19 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
15 amps of lights, on a 20 amp circuit. Does
not leave much capacity for other devices
which might be plugged in.
.
Christopher A. Young

What 15 amps? It's a an LED, 15 watts.

The subject of this thread is a 15 amp cabinet lights.

THAT 15 amps.

Yes, you're right. Funny no one else commented on that. IDK what
that's all about.

I don't read subject lines. Don't know about everyone else.

On 2/24/2016 11:31 AM, wrote:
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

There's nothing technically wrong with what you are trying to do.
But, there are LEGAL issues.
I use the term "LEGAL" not because I can point to a statute.
You may end up in court if someone is hurt or your house burns down.

Depending on where you live, there are codes and standards with which you
must comply.
I'm not an electrician and what I'm about to say may not use the correct
terms or be precisely correct, but you'll get the gist...

If your fuse/breaker is 20A, EVERYTHING in the walls has to be able to
handle that current. In the USA, that typically means 12 gauge wire
of a type approved for that purpose.

You can't just "splice" wires in the wall. You have to put the splices
in an approved electrical box using approved splicing methods.

Normally, you'd add a new electrical box at the light and run a wire
all the way to the existing outlet box and put splices inside each box.
You'd have to get an electrical permit and have the work inspected when
done.

Depending on where you live, your transgression may never
be discovered and enforcement may be non-existent.
May not be a problem until you try to sell the house and are
required to bring the electrical up to code.
But, if anybody ever gets hurt, even after you sell the house,
the ambulance-chasers might
have a field day assigning guilt.

I have several projects I'd like to do where the cost of doing
it
right exceeds the perceived benefit. I resist those temptations
to do it easy.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 4:43:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
More clarification:

The LED panel is definitely rated for a 15amp circuit. Basically, I am not sure if it is ok to run it on a 20amp circuit, and with the wiring method I drew in the diagram.


It is OK. The only possible code issue was what Don brought up, ie that
kitchens are supposed to have 20A circuits reserved for receptacles for
appliances and it's probably a code violation to hook up a dedicated
light circuit. But this is a 15W LED and it really doesn't have a
material effect on the availability of 20A at the receptacles. And that
is a new requirement, I don't think it would apply to circuits installed
prior to when the new 20A requirement went into effect.

As long as you wire it in at the box with the receptacle, you're OK.
Only other possible issue would be not exceeding the wire fill capacity
of the box.




My questions we
1) Is it to code?
2) Is it safe?

Yes

3) If I wire it to the 20A circuit, does that mean I'm supplying 120V 20A to it?

No, the circuit is rated at 20A max, you're supplying it ~ 125ma, assuming
it's really 15W. Whatever it is, it's an LED and insignificant.



4) What happens if I supply 20A, when it's only rated to receive up to 15A?

One more (hopefully last) clarification:

The diagram I drew is actually incorrect. I was planning on placing the orange splice connections INSIDE the green box, not outside.

Is that code-compliant and/or safe?

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.

[time goes by]

But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).
And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
the wall!!
Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.

His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!

I have my own home-made under-the-counter light, installed at least 25
years ago. Two sockets using those 110V hotdog-shaped light bulbs
(like are used for bed-lamps) and a separate switch (none of which is
visible, just behind the cabinet skirt), and a two-conductor wire
(lamp cord). I put a plug on the cord and plugged it in. I used
insulated staples or 2-sided tape or something to keep the wire up
under the cabinet.

I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.

OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.

[time goes by]

But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).
And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
the wall!!
Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex.

Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
or typically any cover at all.


is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.


Most houses today are using plastic boxes that have plastic tabs
that squeeze against the cable. While it's intended for Romex,
I certainly could live with the round cable going through it.
As for tightening up so sparks can't get out, typical box isn't
made to be spark tight to begin with.



His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!


He's clearly intending to make the connection inside the existing
receptacle box. Good grief. Conductor fill might be a legitimate issue
though, depending on what's in there already.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:57:31 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.

[time goes by]

But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).
And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
the wall!!
Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex.

Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
or typically any cover at all.

The thing that covers the hole. I don't know what it's called.


is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.


Most houses today are using plastic boxes that have plastic tabs
that squeeze against the cable. While it's intended for Romex,
I certainly could live with the round cable going through it.
As for tightening up so sparks can't get out, typical box isn't
made to be spark tight to begin with.

OK


His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!


He's clearly intending to make the connection inside the existing
receptacle box. Good grief. Conductor fill might be a legitimate issue
though, depending on what's in there already.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 6:30:39 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex.

Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
or typically any cover at all.

The thing that covers the hole. I don't know what it's called.

Manhole cover?

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.

[time goes by]

But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).

Really? The receptacles are empty "probably" because the kitchen isn't in
use yet?

The 2 duplex receptacles next my sink are only used for small electrics
like hand mixers, the crock pot, the coffee grinder, etc. Things that are
plugged in, used and then put away. The vast majority of the time they are
empty. The unfinished counter tells us the kitchen is not in use yet, but
empty receptacles tell us nothing other than that they are empty.

As for your "win" related to the cord. Your *assumption* was correct, while
I chose not to make an assumption and to withhold a suggested method until
we had the details. If your correct guess makes you feel victorious, enjoy
the feeling.

And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
the wall!!

And that is acceptable to you? In what world?

That is what I have been trying to get across to you all along. If this is to
be done to code, he is going to need a junction box to accept the cord from
the LED fixture. He will then need to run wire that is rated for in wall use
to that junction box from a source. I could be wrong, but I'll wager that
the cord from the led fixture is not rated for in wall use. Even if it is, it
can't just be run through a hole in the wall.

Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box.

What 2 conductor wire?

Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground. In addition he said:

"The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?)
onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall."

Even if you have trouble reading, he included a picture.

It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.

Sparks? Do you think that the purpose of Romex connectors is to contain
sparks? Wow!

If that isn't a reason for me to slowly back away from this conversation
I don't know what it is.

Moving on...


His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!


I have my own home-made under-the-counter light, installed at least 25
years ago. Two sockets using those 110V hotdog-shaped light bulbs
(like are used for bed-lamps) and a separate switch (none of which is
visible, just behind the cabinet skirt), and a two-conductor wire
(lamp cord). I put a plug on the cord and plugged it in. I used
insulated staples or 2-sided tape or something to keep the wire up
under the cabinet.

I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.

OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 07:26:02 -0600, trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:10:40 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
... you owe me big time friend.

Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
minutes at my precinct. Shish.

When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
paying attention or what?

I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.

P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
in June, please.

Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)

If we could just ban the use of the words "amazing" and "tremendous"
we could shut up the whole Trump family. I was watching Donald give
a 2 min interview and he used one 3 times, the other twice.

Another word that gets overused is love. A man could love his
country, close relatives, and his dog. But love a movie, a burger,
a store? NO.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:36:08 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 6:30:39 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:

Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box. It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex.

Last time I checked, Romex doesn't go through the receptacle cover
or typically any cover at all.

The thing that covers the hole. I don't know what it's called.

Manhole cover?

That's it.

On 2/24/2016 8:38 PM, Micky wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:36:08 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

The thing that covers the hole. I don't know what it's called.

Manhole cover?

That's it.


Adhesive bandage.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:45:38 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 5:31:07 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:49:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 10:06:16 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 9:59:32 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 8:18:11 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I don't think so. Most of the LED things like under counter lights are
probably added in some half-assed way by the homeowner or they are made
with a transformer that has a plug. I've seen hardwired ones
done right with the transformer mounted inside a cabinet or down
in the basement. Depending on where it's going, the plug in type
could be fine, assuming it's off to the side, behind some counter
appliance, etc where the cord isn't objectionable.

But he specifically said:

"The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch. "

I know he said that. It still sounds like regular wires to me.

[time goes by]

But he's posted picture links and counting the whole thread I've got
one loss and two wins.
He doesn't want to use a plug.
But I was right about what the wires look like. Even though he has
4 empty receptacles (probably because the kitchen isn't in use yet).

Really? The receptacles are empty "probably" because the kitchen isn't in
use yet?

We're really going to quibble about "probably". Below you're proud
that you don't make assumptions. So isn't it better to make a
qualified assumption (probably) than an unqualified one?

The 2 duplex receptacles next my sink

Sink? There's no sink in the picture.

are only used for small electrics
like hand mixers, the crock pot, the coffee grinder, etc. Things that are
plugged in, used and then put away. The vast majority of the time they are
empty.

Not everyone works that way.

The unfinished counter tells us the kitchen is not in use yet, but
empty receptacles tell us nothing other than that they are empty.

Who said that was the reason I thought it's not used yet? The
reasons are that the counter has nothing on it, the paint colors don't
match, and the edge of the paint is not straight. But that's not
total proof so I said probably. See?

As for your "win" related to the cord. Your *assumption* was correct, while
I chose not to make an assumption and to withhold a suggested method until
we had the details. If your correct guess makes you feel victorious, enjoy
the feeling.

MMMmmmMMMmmm. Oh, that's good.

And I was right that he plans for the wire to come straight out of
the wall!!

And that is acceptable to you? In what world?

Where did I say it was acceptable? Four lines down I said " Plus if
this is permitted at all (????)...."

That is what I have been trying to get across to you all along. If this is to
be done to code, he is going to need a junction box to accept the cord from
the LED fixture. He will then need to run wire that is rated for in wall use
to that junction box from a source. I could be wrong, but I'll wager that
the cord from the led fixture is not rated for in wall use. Even if it is, it
can't just be run through a hole in the wall.

That's what I said in an earlier post.

Plus I don't know how he intends to run the 2-conductor wire into
the junction box.

What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows. He might have been wrong when he said
there was a ground.

In addition he said:

"The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?)
onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall."

Even if you have trouble reading, he included a picture.

Look at it.

It's a lot smaller than Romex and the standard
cover will leave a much bigger opening than with Romex. Plus if this
is permitted at all (????) he needs some sort of grommet to go into
the box. Are there any grommets small enough for this wire that are
acceptable for 110 volts? Maybe it came with a smaller than average
wachamacallit, that goes into the hole in the box and tightens down so
that sparks can't get out.

Sparks? Do you think that the purpose of Romex connectors is to contain
sparks? Wow!

The purpose of junction boxes is to contain sparks and fire.

If that isn't a reason for me to slowly back away from this conversation
I don't know what it is.

Moving on...


His drawing either shows no junction box, or it shows the connections
made outside of the box!!!


I have my own home-made under-the-counter light, installed at least 25
years ago. Two sockets using those 110V hotdog-shaped light bulbs
(like are used for bed-lamps) and a separate switch (none of which is
visible, just behind the cabinet skirt), and a two-conductor wire
(lamp cord). I put a plug on the cord and plugged it in. I used
insulated staples or 2-sided tape or something to keep the wire up
under the cabinet.

I thought that we discussing his exact situation, not a situation where a
plug in type transformer is present.

OK, so his transformer isn't like the freestanding one that I linked to, but
it sure sounds like that style of transformer is inside the fixture. Bottom
line is that he has 2 bare wires that he has to attach to a 110VAC source.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:55:35 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 12:07:48 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:58:34 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 at 1:13:06 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 04:40:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:28:20 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:18:23 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:
...............
You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.

Well, they don't look like alligators. They look like wires.

True. They might even look like the wires that come with a bathroom fan.
3 loose wires (18g?) one black, one white, one green. Maybe it's a short
run of Romex. Do you feel that putting a plug on those types of wires

They would never put Romex on a less than 20 watt light.

"will not detract from the appearance of the kitchen?"

If you think that either of those will be an OK look, then we have nothing
further to discuss.

Red herring. I didn't suggest those wires, you did.

If you agree with me that that that would not be aesthetically pleasing, then I repeat:

You can't make that assertion without knowing what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like.


Again, based on his use of the
words "intended to be hardwired inside the wall" I lean away from the simple
attachment of a plug being aesthetically pleasing. In fact, it may not
even be to code.

What in the code prevents connecting two 14, 16, or 18 gauge wires to
a plug?

I don't know. That's why I said *may*. You keep making statements based on
your assumptions of what he is dealing with and I keep leaving it wide open
until we know the details. You have no clue what the "bare leads intended
to be hardwired inside the wall" look like, yet you keep saying things like
"Put a plug on them! Solder on longer wires! It'll be beautiful! It will
meet code!"

What do you mean "no clue". I've seen 100's of electric lights.

The wires look just like I expected.

And he could put a plug on them. He just doesn't want to, and I
understand that.

That make no sense.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
....snip...


What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ

He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.

He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said
was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
Tis you that are wrong.

Pop quiz:

Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
would expect those to wires to be?


....snip...

On 2/24/2016 5:51 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Another word that gets overused is love. A man could love his
country, close relatives, and his dog. But love a movie, a burger,
a store? NO.

I'm annoyed with the overuse (IMO) of the word "hero".

Someone gets assassinated in a school shooting and they're a "hero".
Really? What particular act of bravery did they accomplish? For
all we know, they may have been cowering behind a CHILD when killed.

This cheapens the term, IMO. A guy who throws himself on a grenade
to protect others is a hero.

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...snip...


What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ

He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.

He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said
was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
Tis you that are wrong.

Pop quiz:

Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
would expect those to wires to be?


...snip...

+1 to all the above. I'm still trying to figure out how a romex cable,
typically comes out from a cover plate in Micky's world.

On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...snip...


What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each
wire, so it's certainly not clear.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ

He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.

He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said

The drawing showed three wires.

was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
Tis you that are wrong.

Pop quiz:

Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
would expect those to wires to be?


...snip...

+1 to all the above. I'm still trying to figure out how a romex cable,
typically comes out from a cover plate in Micky's world.

I'm still trying to figure out how your reading comprehension can be
so low.

On Wed, 24 Feb 2016 22:32:25 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 2/24/2016 5:51 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Another word that gets overused is love. A man could love his
country, close relatives, and his dog. But love a movie, a burger,
a store? NO.

I'm annoyed with the overuse (IMO) of the word "hero".

Someone gets assassinated in a school shooting and they're a "hero".
Really? What particular act of bravery did they accomplish? For
all we know, they may have been cowering behind a CHILD when killed.

This cheapens the term, IMO. A guy who throws himself on a grenade
to protect others is a hero.

I agree. Actually there are two meanings,
1) someone who risks his life (or maybe something else important) for
someone else, and
2) someone who is admired and emulated, most likely by a young person.
A football player can be a boy's hero. Maybe this is a newer
meaning.

But I agree with you, just dying does not make one a hero.

OTOH, Trump was way off base when he implied that all McCain did was
get captured. Coming from a guy who avoided the draft, it was a
particularly obnoxious statement, like many of his. (sorry to bring
in politics, but very related to "hero".)

Something else worth noting. Take almost any TV news story, on the
evening news, and the last sentence where they try to reach a moral or
a conclusion is usually false, unsupported, unrelated, or at best
exaggerated.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:07:18 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...snip...


What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each
wire, so it's certainly not clear.

As long as you are replying to my comments in trader_4's post, I guess
I'll respond here too.

Give up. There is no "maybe" that the neutral (white) wire is visible in
the picture. You need to get a better monitor/device/eyesight. I can see
the white wire on my PC, my iPad and my smartphone.

Maybe Car13 will be nice to you and verify the presence or maybe he'll move
the wires and post another link.

Bottom line is that the neutral wire is visible in the picture, so any
discussion that related to only 2 wires being available is irrelevant.


http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ

He might have been wrong when he said there was a ground.

He never said anything about a ground being there or not. All he said

The drawing showed three wires.

....because there *are* 3 wires.


was "The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel..." and he was 100% correct.
Tis you that are wrong.

Pop quiz:

Let's say the device only had 2 wires, a hot and a neutral. What color
would expect those to wires to be?

I asked that question because of your assertion that there are only 2
wires. If we were to suspend reality and agree that there are only 2
wires and then apply your statement "He might have been wrong when he said
there was a ground" do you really think that the wires would be black
and green? In my experience, devices that only provide a hot and a neutral
use black and white, not black and green.



...snip...

+1 to all the above. I'm still trying to figure out how a romex cable,
typically comes out from a cover plate in Micky's world.

I'm still trying to figure out how your reading comprehension can be
so low.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 9:29:47 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:07:18 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...snip...


What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each
wire, so it's certainly not clear.

As long as you are replying to my comments in trader_4's post, I guess
I'll respond here too.

Give up. There is no "maybe" that the neutral (white) wire is visible in
the picture. You need to get a better monitor/device/eyesight. I can see
the white wire on my PC, my iPad and my smartphone.

Maybe Car13 will be nice to you and verify the presence or maybe he'll move
the wires and post another link.

Bottom line is that the neutral wire is visible in the picture, so any
discussion that related to only 2 wires being available is irrelevant.


+1

I can see it. It's partially hidden, but like you said, just knowing
that it's a light, seeing a black and a green, you immediately think
where is the white and then it's not hard to spot.

Bottom line on this whole thing is that to do this 100% absolutely
code compliant would be a real pain in the ass. I could certainly
live with running the wire into the receptacle box and connecting it
there. What would an inspector say? IDK, but they have discretion
and I don't see any real safety issue as long as it's done in a
reasonable way. For example, what happens when an electrician
runs a new cable for a wall receptacle? Do they punch holes everywhere
in the wall to meet the reqt that it be stapled along it's length,
stapled within 12" of the new box, etc? Or do they drill a hole
in the top or bottom plate, cut a hole for a box and just snake the cable?
If you had to strictly follow every last code detail, regardless of the
circumstances, it sure would make for a lot of extra work.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:03:47 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 9:29:47 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:07:18 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 04:27:34 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 11:18:09 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 9:04:17 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...snip...


What 2 conductor wire?

The white wire with the black and green wires inside it.


Good Grief! Pay attention. The picture shows 3 wires. Hot, Neutral and
Ground.

I see 2 wires and 2 shadows.

Look, I'm only responding to help you out. Maybe it's because I feel sorry
for you.

I don't know what kind of monitor you have or what kind of device you are
viewing those pictures with, but for some reason you are aren't seeing the
neutral (white) wire. It comes out of the casing, goes behind the ground
(green) wire, runs along the hot (black) wire and then goes behind the hot
wire. Notice how there are *2* stripped ends right next to each other where
the hot and neutral end.

Maybe. There are two shadows, one darker than the other, for each
wire, so it's certainly not clear.

As long as you are replying to my comments in trader_4's post, I guess
I'll respond here too.

Give up. There is no "maybe" that the neutral (white) wire is visible in
the picture. You need to get a better monitor/device/eyesight. I can see
the white wire on my PC, my iPad and my smartphone.

Maybe Car13 will be nice to you and verify the presence or maybe he'll move
the wires and post another link.

Bottom line is that the neutral wire is visible in the picture, so any
discussion that related to only 2 wires being available is irrelevant.


+1

I can see it. It's partially hidden, but like you said, just knowing
that it's a light, seeing a black and a green, you immediately think
where is the white and then it's not hard to spot.

Bottom line on this whole thing is that to do this 100% absolutely
code compliant would be a real pain in the ass.

I couldn't agree more.

This is from a "This Old House" installation. Is it code to have the
Romex come out the wall and left exposed as shown? Maybe a length of
wiremold to cover the Romex would work.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-...826161,00.html

I've removed the short cord that comes with shop lights and ran Romex
directly into the housing, secured with a Romex connector. This allowed
me to wire them into a lighting circuit without have to put a receptacle
in the ceiling near each one. Perhaps that is a viable solution for Car13.

Assuming the cord that is on the LED fixture is not code compliant to be
run inside a wall, replacing it with Romex might work. Where he sources
the power from is up to him. Properly, from a lighting circuit, or improperly,
from a counter receptacle box. I realize that I am talking from
both sides by saying he shouldn't run the existing cord inside the wall but
"accepting" a connection to the counter receptacle circuit. It's just that
running the existing cord through the wall makes me very uncomfortable.

I could certainly
live with running the wire into the receptacle box and connecting it
there. What would an inspector say? IDK, but they have discretion
and I don't see any real safety issue as long as it's done in a
reasonable way. For example, what happens when an electrician
runs a new cable for a wall receptacle? Do they punch holes everywhere
in the wall to meet the reqt that it be stapled along it's length,
stapled within 12" of the new box, etc? Or do they drill a hole
in the top or bottom plate, cut a hole for a box and just snake the cable?
If you had to strictly follow every last code detail, regardless of the
circumstances, it sure would make for a lot of extra work.

Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks

On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks


I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:

Black - Hot
White - Neutral
Green - Ground



I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and everyone else in my building.

OK, here's where things get a little touchy. Please don't take this the
wrong way. After all, you did say: "I do want this to be safe for me and
everyone else in my building."

You don't know what to call the wires which tells me that you haven't
spent much time working with household electrical wiring. You passed the
inspection so now you don't mind going off the reservation. Both of those
things concern me. Are you sure that you are the right person to be
attempting this installation? Do you have friends that have done house
wiring before that would be willing to help/teach you how to do this
safely?

Keep in mind that we are all pretty sure that using that receptacle box
in the first place is not code compliant, so anything else that you do
may only make matters worse.

One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall
and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the
wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely? Will you
know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now
unsafe? Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire? Do
you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from
my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to
run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.


I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in my description?

If you indeed want to tackle this job, we might be able to tell you the
generic steps to get the wiring done, but without actually seeing the
inside of that box, we can't be specific. If they used wire nuts and
pigtails, adding a wire would be done one way (assuming there is room).
If they back-clamped the wires into the receptacle, it will need to be
done in a different way. If there is some sort of shared neutral (I doubt
it) then that adds another element. All I am trying to say is that it all
depends on how that receptacle box is wired.

At the risk of sounding tedious, I really think you need to determine if
that cord should even be run inside the wall. If not, then you are going
to have figure out how to get your source wires into a junction box and
then figure out how to get that cord (safely) into the junction box. As
I mentioned in an earlier post, it might be OK to remove that cord and use
Romex as shown he

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-...826161,00.html



Thanks

Good luck!

On 2/25/2016 11:44 AM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going
to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct
and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super concerned
about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe for me and
everyone else in my building.

Then you want it to be "Code compliant"! Period.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I safely
wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without having to attach
a plug from the outside? And is there more information that is lacking in
my description?

Thanks

On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was
going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if
that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super
concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe
for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I
safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without
having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more
information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks


I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

DerbyDad03 writes:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:

Black - Hot
White - Neutral
Green - Ground


The canonical terminology (that you'll find in the NEC) is:

Black/Red/Yellow/Brown/Orange/etc. - Current Carrying Conductor
White - Grounded conductor.
Green/Green-yellow/Bare - Grounding conductor.

Thanks everyone. Continued thanks for all the feedback and comments. If the right person is someone who has all the answers then I'm not the right person I guess. But, I'm not an incapable person either.

If there's no safe way to do this, then I'm totally ok skipping the lights. But what would you guys do? Code-compliant or nothing? Or wire to the outlet?

To answer DerbyDad03's concerns:

[DD03] One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the
wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely?
[C13] Yes, I can confidently do that. I tested it it "outside" the wall to check functionality and overall lighting effect of the LED panel.

[DD03] Will you know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now unsafe?
[C13] I don't know. I'd have to look it up. Any advice here?

[DD03] Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire?
[C13] Yes, I've done that before. Wire nuts, plus add a bit extra length to the stranded wire? Or wrap some stranded wire around the solid wire before the nut?

[DD03] Do you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to
run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.
[C13] I'd have to look this up too to check. I was going to copy the securing nut/grommet I see on other boxes.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:27:00 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was
going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if
that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super
concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe
for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I
safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without
having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more
information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks


I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used
to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired,
he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the
circuit.

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 4:08:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Thanks everyone. Continued thanks for all the feedback and comments. If the right person is someone who has all the answers then I'm not the right person I guess. But, I'm not an incapable person either.

If there's no safe way to do this, then I'm totally ok skipping the lights. But what would you guys do? Code-compliant or nothing? Or wire to the outlet?

To answer DerbyDad03's concerns:

[DD03] One of my concerns is that if we just tell you to drill a hole in the wall and fish that cord into the receptacle box and use wire nuts to match the
wires colors by color, are you going to be able to do that safely?
[C13] Yes, I can confidently do that. I tested it it "outside" the wall to check functionality and overall lighting effect of the LED panel.

[DD03] Will you know if the box is so over crowded that you are so out of code that it is now unsafe?
[C13] I don't know. I'd have to look it up. Any advice here?

[DD03] Do you know how to safely attach stranded wire to solid wire?
[C13] Yes, I've done that before. Wire nuts, plus add a bit extra length to the stranded wire? Or wrap some stranded wire around the solid wire before the nut?

[DD03] Do you know how to safely secure the wire to the box? (You might recall from my previous posts that I'm not even sure that it is code (or even safe) to
run that cord inside a wall and into a junction box.
[C13] I'd have to look this up too to check. I was going to copy the securing nut/grommet I see on other boxes.

Please see the other posts related to the fact that you have a 20A circuit.

The cord on the fixture is not 12g, so I don't believe that it can be
brought into the box, which it probably shouldn't be anyway because it is
probably not code to wire the fixture into an counter receptacle circuit.

This is what I was trying to say earlier. You are already going off the
reservation by using the receptacle box. Now you have wire size issues
and a wire type that probably shouldn't be in the wall anyway.

You want it to be safe for you and everyone else in the building, yet it
appears that you will have at least 3 code violations if you continue down
your current path. Forget the receptacle box and do it right.

What if I do this?
1) Connect the supplied cable to a 12-gauge cable (Romex?) outside of the wall and tuck both cables under the cabinet and behind the LED panel. So the entire cable from the LED panel and some length of the 12-gauge cable would be outside the wall.
2) Route the 12-gauge cable in the wall through the junction box.
3) Secure the 12-gauge cable to the junction box.

Alternatively, what would be the right way to do it?

On 2/25/2016 3:26 PM, mike wrote:
On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

It's a branch circuit, not a main line.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 2/25/2016 4:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

The canonical terminology (that you'll find in the NEC) is:

Black/Red/Yellow/Brown/Orange/etc. - Current Carrying Conductor
White - Grounded conductor.
Green/Green-yellow/Bare - Grounding conductor.


Dear Father Lurndal,
I thought the white carries
current, also?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 2/25/2016 6:03 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:18:26 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:

Black - Hot
White - Neutral
Green - Ground

If you want to be pedantic it is

Black - ungrounded conductor
White - grounded conductor
Green - grounding conductor but there is a push to call that the
bonding conductor.


In you want to be clear in single phase service (not to be confused with rare two-phase service)

Black = L1 (line)

Red = L2 (line)

White = N (neutral)

Green or bare = G (ground)

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 4:15:03 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:27:00 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was
going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if
that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super
concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe
for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I
safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without
having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more
information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks


I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used
to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired,
he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the
circuit.

What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 2:18:34 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Has anybody asked what the installation instructions say?

Another possible solution is to find a different type of light
that is easier to deal with, maybe separate transformer, that
could be plugged in somewhere, under sink outlet maybe, etc?

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:46:55 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 4:15:03 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:27:00 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was
going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if
that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super
concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe
for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I
safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without
having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more
information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks


I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used
to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired,
he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the
circuit.

What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?

Hey, let me start by saying that I am not a code expert. I've been saying
all along that I'm not sure about the fixture code itself. That said...

I think it's different when the fixture is attached directly to the
fixture box and the wires within the fixture are wire-nutted to the source
wires in the box. Once we start talking about cords from the fixture I don't
think that they can be brought into a junction box but I could be wrong.

I think this section of the code covers what I'm talking about:

NEC 400.8 Uses Not Permitted

(ref. Extension Cord) Flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the
following:

- As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
- Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended
ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
- Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above
suspended or dropped ceilings

I *think* that the fixture cord qualifies as a "flexible cord" and
would therefore not be permitted, especially not permitted inside the
wall. Whether it would be permitted to run from the fixture to a junction
box under the counter or even inside the cabinet is something I'm not
sure of.