Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

"car13" wrote in message
...
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if
what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The
only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V,
max 14.7W"


It should be as safe as any lights. Hopefully the built in transformer will
have a fuse internal to it rated for the lights.

On 2/22/2016 11:53 AM, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what
I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only
input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max
14.7W"

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... : )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 2:03:59 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2016 11:53 AM, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what
I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only
input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max
14.7W"

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... : )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

IDK exactly what "behind an existing 20A outlet really means", but as
far as the code goes, I think you probably have a point regarding code
and connecting it to one of the 20A appliance circuits, which are supposed
to be only for plug-in appliances. However, it
is perfectly safe and for just 14W worth of LED lights, I know what I'd do.....
Unless some other circuit is easily available, of course.

On 2/22/2016 7:33 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:47:54 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 2:03:59 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 2/22/2016 11:53 AM, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what
I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads
intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only
input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max
14.7W"

Two different issues, here.

First, neither the lights nor the circuit will care. The circuit can
more than adequately supply the load. And, the lights don't care
where their ~15W of power come from (as long as there are no
YELLOW electrons involved! Damn pesky things... : )

But, your reference to "behind an existing 20A outlet" suggests you want
to hard-wire them to one of the two GFCI counter-top branch circuits
intended for use in a kitchen. There, you run afoul of code as you
are now installing a fixed load (albeit small) that defeats the
purpose of having "two 20A GFCI circuits for SMALL APPLIANCES"

[I.e., why not connect the refrigerator there, as well? Ans: don't!]

IDK exactly what "behind an existing 20A outlet really means", but as
far as the code goes, I think you probably have a point regarding code
and connecting it to one of the 20A appliance circuits, which are supposed
to be only for plug-in appliances. However, it
is perfectly safe and for just 14W worth of LED lights, I know what I'd do.....
Unless some other circuit is easily available, of course.

Trader is right about the code. I don't see a huge problem but it is
not really legal. If you have a general lighting circuit in there that
would be the one to use and you can even make a case that it is legal
on with the dish washer or disposal. Not the fridge

We ran a separate drop off the lighting circuit feeding a pair of
wall switches. The wall switches, in turn, feed two halves of a split
duplex receptacle located above the sink (behind the sconce -- if
that's what it's called?). There, installed a pair of power supplies
the outputs of which then are routed down through the walls to connect
to the under-cabinet light strips.

In this way, we can service the power supplies, adjust intensity, replace
them, etc. without having to worry about "will it physically fit" at
some future date. And, puts the switches controlling them in a comparable
place as the other light switches for the room.

[considered "remoting" the intensity control but figured we could
probably live with one setting. currently set for "workspace lighting",
i.e. bright. If we later decided we wanted to use them as a dim sort
of nightlight, we'd tweek that setting]

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:53:48 PM UTC-5, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

What do you mean by "behind an outlet"?

On 02/22/2016 12:32 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 1:53:48 PM UTC-5, car13 wrote:
Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure
if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare
leads intended to be hardwired inside the wall, and a remote
switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?
The only input specs on the package are "120V". The output specs
are "24V, max 14.7W"

Thanks!

"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp
outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

What do you mean by "behind an outlet"?

He means wiring them into the wire nuts behind a regular outlet, ie not
wiring them to a plug that is plugged into the outlet.

Jon

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 6:44:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

In that case...

Safe? Probably. Code? Probably not.

See trader_4's response for the reason.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:04:29 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Yep, what Jon said. Sorry, I'm not super familiar with electrical terminology (I'm a mechanical guy).

No you may not do that.

Why not just get one of those 6 in 1 outlets, that plug into to a
duplex outlet (like you have) and have a center screw so they don't
pull out when you pull out a plug. They come with 3 prong sockets.

These days, even a properly wired house is likely to have many more
appliances and little black boxes than the number of receptacles, even
if you don't use more than one or two of the big ones at once.

He does not have a plug on the end of the leads from the transformer. The wires
might not be suitable for adding a plug, perhaps because of physical issues, perhaps
because of aesthetics.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:32:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


"Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet?"

If you install them behind an outlet, they are not going to cast much
light. ;-)

They will light the space inside the wall, between the 2 studs on each
side of that outlet. Maybe he could then put a glass block or two into
that wall so the light can be seen.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:53:42 -0800 (PST), car13
wrote:

Hi, I want to install cabinet lights in my kitchen and I'm not sure if what I want to do is safe (or code compliant).

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads

I missed this part. Bare leads or not, buy a plug and connect it to
the leads. You probably need a plug with screw connectors. Do they
still sell the small 2-prong ones?

Yeah, but nowhere near as many styles as befo
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-0DE/202077705
and maybe these two
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-0WP/100356964
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-1...-00W/202077684
but the video in all 3 cases is unrelated to the plug, so I can't tell
if either of these have screws inside. Probably not. Forget I
mentioned them. And if it says Quick in the name, probably won't work
either.

It's good to save the cords from things one throws away, so you can
solder a plug and a few inches of cord onto bare wires or when a plug
fails. I have a box of 20 of these already, in various colors.

intended to be hardwired inside the wall,

Maybe. But maybe meant to be sold in Europe too so they dont' know
what plug to put on the end.

and a remote switch.

Is it ok to install these lights behind an existing 20 amp outlet? The only input specs on the package are "120V".

This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling
something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through
the wall plate. I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom
speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for
when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is
ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.

The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.

**Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better
than that.

Thanks!

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:24:31 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:


This sort of contradicts that idea, but I still can't imagine selling
something that requires wires coming out of the wall beside or through
the wall plate.

I can pretty much guarantee that the install instructions don't say
to do it that way. The correct way would be to wire it into a
junction box and I would hope that's what the instructions would say.



I've done that with my TV co-ax, with my bathroom
speaker wires, and with an telephone extension flashing light (for
when the bell is off but I'm awake, so I'll know the phone is
ringing.) I certainly wouldn't do it with 110V.

The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.


Wrong concept here. What you look at is *power* on both sides.
The secondary is 15W, that means ideally, the primary is 15W,
giving a current of 125ma at 120V. It will be a bit more than
that because of losses, but that's the conversion concept.

Using your method, a battery charger that supplies 25A, would be
pulling less than 50A? It sure would be less than 50A, because it's
on the order of 2.5A @ 120V



**Twice would mean only 50% efficiency, and transformers are better
than that.


See above. You're using equal currents on both sides, when it's
actually equal power.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2016 05:27:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 11:24:31 PM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
...
The output specs are "24V, max 14.7W"

IOW max 0.6 amps output.

FWIW, if it outputs 14.7w, the input actually used is less than
twice** that, less than 1.2 amps. But if the wires short to each
other or ground, you'll see a spark far bigger than that.


Wrong concept here.

Not wrong concept but a calculation that didn't match my concept.
Thanks for the correction,

On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:53:42 -0800 (PST), car13
wrote:

The lights are an LED panel with a built in transformer, with bare leads

I really hope those "Bare Leads" are really insulated wire!!!
Otherwise there could be a serious fire hazzard as code violation!

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

posted for all of us...



Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")

You have to run those 129v leads into some kind of jbox. The jbox must be
fed. The jbox cannot be inside the wall but it can be mounted creatively.

J ad a detailed reply written but the power went out so others can look at
your pix and help guide you. I would just use a plug to an existing outlet.

--
Tekkie

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 2:31:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

I'd wire it in as you suggested. As long as the connections are
inside the box the receptacle is in and the max number of wires,
ie fill of the box isn't exceeded, I don't see a problem with it.

More clarification:

The LED panel is definitely rated for a 15amp circuit. Basically, I am not sure if it is ok to run it on a 20amp circuit, and with the wiring method I drew in the diagram.

My questions we
1) Is it to code?
2) Is it safe?
3) If I wire it to the 20A circuit, does that mean I'm supplying 120V 20A to it?
4) What happens if I supply 20A, when it's only rated to receive up to 15A?

On Wednesday, February 24, 2016 at 4:43:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
More clarification:

The LED panel is definitely rated for a 15amp circuit. Basically, I am not sure if it is ok to run it on a 20amp circuit, and with the wiring method I drew in the diagram.


It is OK. The only possible code issue was what Don brought up, ie that
kitchens are supposed to have 20A circuits reserved for receptacles for
appliances and it's probably a code violation to hook up a dedicated
light circuit. But this is a 15W LED and it really doesn't have a
material effect on the availability of 20A at the receptacles. And that
is a new requirement, I don't think it would apply to circuits installed
prior to when the new 20A requirement went into effect.

As long as you wire it in at the box with the receptacle, you're OK.
Only other possible issue would be not exceeding the wire fill capacity
of the box.




My questions we
1) Is it to code?
2) Is it safe?

Yes

3) If I wire it to the 20A circuit, does that mean I'm supplying 120V 20A to it?

No, the circuit is rated at 20A max, you're supplying it ~ 125ma, assuming
it's really 15W. Whatever it is, it's an LED and insignificant.



4) What happens if I supply 20A, when it's only rated to receive up to 15A?

On 2/24/2016 11:31 AM, wrote:
Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the feedback! I realize my description might have been bad enough to cause more confusion that I expected. As I mentioned, I'm a mechanical guy so I'm not familiar with electrical terms and I only remember basic stuff from school like P=VI.

Check out these two images to see what I'm trying to do.

http://imgur.com/HXs2qpZ
This image shows the following:
- The LED panel (with what I referred to as the three "bare leads")
- The outlet on the left is the one I would like to use to power the panel
- The remote switch

http://imgur.com/37gQ508
This cross section diagram is my attempt to show what I want to do.
- The 3 wires coming out of the LED panel would get connected (spliced?) onto corresponding existing wires inside the wall. This is what I mean't by "behind an existing 20amp outlet".
- The orange circles show the connection (splice?) points

Other points of clarification
- The LED panel does not consume 15amps. I can't find the specs in any documentation, but it may or may not be "rated for 15amp circuits".
- The LED panel has output specs of 24V, max 14.7W.
- The LED panel input spec only says "120V". But, in some other documents, I found a spec that says "Power: 5.3W". Not sure what that means.
- I don't want to attach a plug to the cable and plug it into the outlet from the outside.

There's nothing technically wrong with what you are trying to do.
But, there are LEGAL issues.
I use the term "LEGAL" not because I can point to a statute.
You may end up in court if someone is hurt or your house burns down.

Depending on where you live, there are codes and standards with which you
must comply.
I'm not an electrician and what I'm about to say may not use the correct
terms or be precisely correct, but you'll get the gist...

If your fuse/breaker is 20A, EVERYTHING in the walls has to be able to
handle that current. In the USA, that typically means 12 gauge wire
of a type approved for that purpose.

You can't just "splice" wires in the wall. You have to put the splices
in an approved electrical box using approved splicing methods.

Normally, you'd add a new electrical box at the light and run a wire
all the way to the existing outlet box and put splices inside each box.
You'd have to get an electrical permit and have the work inspected when
done.

Depending on where you live, your transgression may never
be discovered and enforcement may be non-existent.
May not be a problem until you try to sell the house and are
required to bring the electrical up to code.
But, if anybody ever gets hurt, even after you sell the house,
the ambulance-chasers might
have a field day assigning guilt.

I have several projects I'd like to do where the cost of doing
it
right exceeds the perceived benefit. I resist those temptations
to do it easy.

One more (hopefully last) clarification:

The diagram I drew is actually incorrect. I was planning on placing the orange splice connections INSIDE the green box, not outside.

Is that code-compliant and/or safe?

I wish I had known someone who does such great work before I put together a few things for our house.

I really enjoy seeing such great "handwork" in this era of mass production of almost everything that touches our lives.