On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 10:45:44 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 8:46:55 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 4:15:03 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:27:00 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 2/25/2016 11:00 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/25/2016 1:44 PM, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was
going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if
that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

I already got my electrical inspection passed, so I'm not super
concerned about being code compliant. But I do want this to be safe
for me and everyone else in my building.

I guess a different way of asking my question would be, How can I
safely wire this LED panel to that 20A outlet on the left, without
having to attach a plug from the outside? And is there more
information that is lacking in my description?

Thanks


I'd be tempted to run some 14 AWG wire from the
existing box, to a new box. And then wire nut
it within the new work box.

You can call black "hot", white is "neutral"
and green is "ground". Unless you want to call
them Cedrick, Susan, and Martian.

If it's a 20 amp breaker, don't you need #12?

This is true. It also convinces me that the existing cord cannot be used
to hard wire the fixture into a junction box. If he wants it hard wired,
he is going to have to upsize that cord to match the requirements of the
circuit.

What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?

Hey, let me start by saying that I am not a code expert. I've been saying
all along that I'm not sure about the fixture code itself. That said...

I think it's different when the fixture is attached directly to the
fixture box and the wires within the fixture are wire-nutted to the source
wires in the box. Once we start talking about cords from the fixture I don't
think that they can be brought into a junction box but I could be wrong.

I think this section of the code covers what I'm talking about:

NEC 400.8 Uses Not Permitted

(ref. Extension Cord) Flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the
following:

- As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
- Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended
ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
- Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above
suspended or dropped ceilings

I *think* that the fixture cord qualifies as a "flexible cord" and
would therefore not be permitted, especially not permitted inside the
wall. Whether it would be permitted to run from the fixture to a junction
box under the counter or even inside the cabinet is something I'm not
sure of.

I think you have valid points especially about running it inside
the wall. On the other hand, some manufacturer
made this thing, presumably it's listed, which is why I asked what the
install instructions and pics show. It has a flexible cord that's
supposed to be wired to something. How in the hell are you supposed
to be able to use it?

He could put a plug on the end of it and plug it in, like Micky suggested.

One key to avoiding this is to try to match what you're buying with
what you have to work with.

On 02/25/2016 06:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?

And what happens when some numbnutz loads a light fixture up with
a couple of these cuz they're too cheap to install proper outlets?

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-O.../dp/B001F71O70

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:10:39 AM UTC-5, WTF wrote:
On 02/25/2016 06:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?

And what happens when some numbnutz loads a light fixture up with
a couple of these cuz they're too cheap to install proper outlets?

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-O.../dp/B001F71O70

The same thing that happens when people put in bulbs that exceed the
fixture rating, use an extension cord that too small for the loads, etc.
None of those are prevented by whether a breaker is 15A or 20A either.

On 02/26/2016 05:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:10:39 AM UTC-5, WTF wrote:
On 02/25/2016 06:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?
And what happens when some numbnutz loads a light fixture up with
a couple of these cuz they're too cheap to install proper outlets?

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-O.../dp/B001F71O70
The same thing that happens when people put in bulbs that exceed the
fixture rating, use an extension cord that too small for the loads, etc.
None of those are prevented by whether a breaker is 15A or 20A either.
How come the government doesn't protect me from that?

On 2/25/2016 2:41 PM, wrote:
What if I do this?
1) Connect the supplied cable to a 12-gauge cable (Romex?) outside of the wall and tuck both cables under the cabinet and behind the LED panel. So the entire cable from the LED panel and some length of the 12-gauge cable would be outside the wall.
2) Route the 12-gauge cable in the wall through the junction box.
3) Secure the 12-gauge cable to the junction box.

Alternatively, what would be the right way to do it?

Hire an electrician.

Rex writes:
On 2/25/2016 6:03 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Feb 2016 11:18:26 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 1:44:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hey everyone,

I confirm that the LED panel has 3 wires. White, Black, Green. I was going to call them "plus, minus, and ground", but I wasn't sure if that's correct and I didn't want to confuse everyone more.

As you may have gleaned from this thread, the correct terminology is:

Black - Hot
White - Neutral
Green - Ground

If you want to be pedantic it is

Black - ungrounded conductor
White - grounded conductor
Green - grounding conductor but there is a push to call that the
bonding conductor.


In you want to be clear in single phase service (not to be confused with rare two-phase service)

Black = L1 (line)

Could be brown, orange, red, blue, black, yellow, etc. Just not white or green.


Red = L2 (line)

Could be brown, orange, red, blue, black, yellow, etc. Just not white or green.


White = N (neutral)

Green or bare = G (ground)

Green, Green with yellow tracer, bare.

What if I do this?
1) Connect the supplied cable to a 12-gauge cable (Romex?) outside of
the wall and tuck both cables under the cabinet and behind the LED
panel. So the entire cable from the LED panel and some length of the
12-gauge cable would be outside the wall. 2) Route the 12-gauge cable
in the wall through the junction box. 3) Secure the 12-gauge cable to
the junction box.
Alternatively, what would be the right way to do it?

I haven't followed this conversation, but why are you using 12 gauge
wire? Your LED cabinet lights are most likely under 20 watts or so. Even
a 14 gauge wire can handle 1800 watts. That's a lot of LED lights.

It sounds like you're wanting to tap power from an existing outlet.
Correct? How many wires enter that box now? How deep is the box? If the
box is at least 2.5" deep and you only have one cable coming in, you're
probably safe to extend the circuit to your cabinet lights. If you have
multiple cables and/or the box is shallow, you could exceed the capacity
of the box.

What kind of connector/fitting is on the undercabinet light? Is it a
standard 3/4" hole with bare wires for hard wiring inside? Or does it
come with a household cord and plug?

I would use 14 gauge romex cable (rated for, and easier to fish inside
walls). If you have room in the source box, it would be better to join
the cables in the box, with short wires to feed the existing outlet. If
space is limited, you could use the terminals on the outlet to "feed
through" the outlet.

Fish the cable through the wall up to your lights. If the fixture is
designed for hard wiring, use a standard cable clamp to secure the cable
to the fixture. Then use wire nuts to make the connections inside the
fixture.

If the fixture is designed with a standard cord and plug, you could cut
off the existing plug and splice it to the Romex (OUTSIDE the wall, don't
bury the splice in the wall). I would slip heat shrink tubing over the
cable, then more heat shrink tubing over the loose wires. Use crimp
connectors to join the wires, then slip the tubing over the
connectors/wires and shrink. Then repeat with the outer heat shrink
tubing. Make sure to secure the cables with clamps (NOT STAPLES) so they
won't get pulled.

Obviously, turn off the power before doing any of this!

Done right, this is a simple and secure installation. Done wrong you can
electrocute yourself or someone you love and/or cause a fire that will
burn your house down.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
What if I do this?
1) Connect the supplied cable to a 12-gauge cable (Romex?) outside of
the wall and tuck both cables under the cabinet and behind the LED
panel. So the entire cable from the LED panel and some length of the
12-gauge cable would be outside the wall. 2) Route the 12-gauge cable
in the wall through the junction box. 3) Secure the 12-gauge cable to
the junction box.
Alternatively, what would be the right way to do it?

I haven't followed this conversation,

Obviously.

but why are you using 12 gauge
wire? Your LED cabinet lights are most likely under 20 watts or so. Even
a 14 gauge wire can handle 1800 watts. That's a lot of LED lights.

It sounds like you're wanting to tap power from an existing outlet.
Correct? How many wires enter that box now? How deep is the box? If the
box is at least 2.5" deep and you only have one cable coming in, you're
probably safe to extend the circuit to your cabinet lights. If you have
multiple cables and/or the box is shallow, you could exceed the capacity
of the box.

What kind of connector/fitting is on the undercabinet light? Is it a
standard 3/4" hole with bare wires for hard wiring inside? Or does it
come with a household cord and plug?

I would use 14 gauge romex cable (rated for, and easier to fish inside
walls). If you have room in the source box, it would be better to join
the cables in the box, with short wires to feed the existing outlet. If
space is limited, you could use the terminals on the outlet to "feed
through" the outlet.

Fish the cable through the wall up to your lights. If the fixture is
designed for hard wiring, use a standard cable clamp to secure the cable
to the fixture. Then use wire nuts to make the connections inside the
fixture.

If the fixture is designed with a standard cord and plug, you could cut
off the existing plug and splice it to the Romex (OUTSIDE the wall, don't
bury the splice in the wall). I would slip heat shrink tubing over the
cable, then more heat shrink tubing over the loose wires. Use crimp
connectors to join the wires, then slip the tubing over the
connectors/wires and shrink. Then repeat with the outer heat shrink
tubing. Make sure to secure the cables with clamps (NOT STAPLES) so they
won't get pulled.

Obviously, turn off the power before doing any of this!

Done right, this is a simple and secure installation.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

I haven't followed this conversation,
Obviously.

Yep, I only have partial information to go on.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

It is not a complicated circuit, but yes there are code issues to consider.

1. It is standard practice in remodel work to extend a circuit for a new
outlet or fixture. The biggest issue I can think of would be box fill
requirements in the source box. I did mention the number of cables and size
of the box as a factor in my initial reply.

2. Wire gauge. I DID ask the OP "why" they were using 12 gauge wire.
Obviously, if the circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker you would need
to use 12 gauge wire on that circuit (14 gauge wire could overheat before
the 20A breaker would trip). Otherwise, 14 gauge wire would be more than
adequate for an LED fixture.

3. Obviously, you can't use standard lamp cord inside a wall. You would
need to use rated cable such as Romex.

4. Connection at the lamp. Ideally the fixture would be designed for hard
wiring, with a proper cable clamp and space in the fixture to make
connections with wire nuts. Unfortunately, many undercabinet fixtures are
made to plug in. The obvious solution would be to install an outlet near
the fixture where the lamp could be plugged in. Unless the lamp
manufacturer provides a certified junction box of some type, there aren't
many low profile options that can fit under a cabinet.

My use of crimp connectors is certainly "NOT" code compliant, but done
properly it is a safe installation as long as the splice is not buried in a
wall and the cables are properly secured.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On 02/23/2016 07:10 PM, Oren wrote:

... you owe me big time friend.

Standing it line for an hour to "cockus". Three minutes to cast my
selection on a paper ballot. We need to go back to the primary before
2008 change and vote electronically. I could vote and be gone in 10
minutes at my precinct. Shish.

When I signed your tax referendum, twenty minutes to find out anybody
that could give it to me -- I was the first one to sign it. Are people
paying attention or what?

I had to stand beside Donald Trump, Jr. too, while I waited for the
petition to be found and listen to 30-50 seconds of his speech of how
great his amazing father is. Looked like he had one of those $800
hair cuts for cripes sake. Shish.

P.S. you can help vote against that stinking Bllomberg gun initiative
in June, please.

Oh, the misery I suffered tonight :-)


Hi Oren,

My first Caucus too. It was "weird". Like voting except you can
politic with those gathered. Everyone loved my "Lyin' Brian's
tax" description.

We had a table to find out precinct. Lyin' Brian's petition
was next to it. Folks would get the precinct number, then move
sideways and sign the petition. As far as I could tell, the
sign rate was 100%. I appreciate you hunting it down!

I will definitely vote to kill Bllomberg gun initiative.

Did you hear that Dear Leader floated Lyin' Brian (Nevada's
Lyin', Betrayin', RINO Governor) for the Supreme Court. Gag.

Is it just me or does Trump's hair cut resemble a golf hat?

Ya, I do owe you one. If for nothing else for having endure
Trump's kids hair cut!

:-)

-T

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 05:50:24 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I haven't followed this conversation,
Obviously.

Yep, I only have partial information to go on.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

It is not a complicated circuit, but yes there are code issues to consider.

1. It is standard practice in remodel work to extend a circuit for a new
outlet or fixture. The biggest issue I can think of would be box fill
requirements in the source box. I did mention the number of cables and size
of the box as a factor in my initial reply.

2. Wire gauge. I DID ask the OP "why" they were using 12 gauge wire.
Obviously, if the circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker you would need
to use 12 gauge wire on that circuit (14 gauge wire could overheat before
the 20A breaker would trip). Otherwise, 14 gauge wire would be more than
adequate for an LED fixture.

3. Obviously, you can't use standard lamp cord inside a wall. You would
need to use rated cable such as Romex.

4. Connection at the lamp. Ideally the fixture would be designed for hard
wiring, with a proper cable clamp and space in the fixture to make
connections with wire nuts. Unfortunately, many undercabinet fixtures are
made to plug in. The obvious solution would be to install an outlet near
the fixture where the lamp could be plugged in. Unless the lamp
manufacturer provides a certified junction box of some type, there aren't
many low profile options that can fit under a cabinet.

My use of crimp connectors is certainly "NOT" code compliant, but done
properly it is a safe installation as long as the splice is not buried in a
wall and the cables are properly secured.


Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.
I see the real issue with this installation is the cord to the lamp.
This is using the provisions of "fixture wires" that allow an 18 gauge
conductor to be hard wired to a branch circuit. Typically that will be
in a box that is part of the listed product or where the fixture
canopy acts as the cover for a regular device box.
If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:07:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 05:50:24 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I haven't followed this conversation,
Obviously.

Yep, I only have partial information to go on.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

It is not a complicated circuit, but yes there are code issues to consider.

1. It is standard practice in remodel work to extend a circuit for a new
outlet or fixture. The biggest issue I can think of would be box fill
requirements in the source box. I did mention the number of cables and size
of the box as a factor in my initial reply.

2. Wire gauge. I DID ask the OP "why" they were using 12 gauge wire.
Obviously, if the circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker you would need
to use 12 gauge wire on that circuit (14 gauge wire could overheat before
the 20A breaker would trip). Otherwise, 14 gauge wire would be more than
adequate for an LED fixture.

3. Obviously, you can't use standard lamp cord inside a wall. You would
need to use rated cable such as Romex.

4. Connection at the lamp. Ideally the fixture would be designed for hard
wiring, with a proper cable clamp and space in the fixture to make
connections with wire nuts. Unfortunately, many undercabinet fixtures are
made to plug in. The obvious solution would be to install an outlet near
the fixture where the lamp could be plugged in. Unless the lamp
manufacturer provides a certified junction box of some type, there aren't
many low profile options that can fit under a cabinet.

My use of crimp connectors is certainly "NOT" code compliant, but done
properly it is a safe installation as long as the splice is not buried in a
wall and the cables are properly secured.


Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.
I see the real issue with this installation is the cord to the lamp.
This is using the provisions of "fixture wires" that allow an 18 gauge
conductor to be hard wired to a branch circuit. Typically that will be
in a box that is part of the listed product or where the fixture
canopy acts as the cover for a regular device box.
If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Thank you! I was hoping you'd respond. :-)

You have essentially confirmed what I considered the main issue with this
installation: That pesky flexible cord.

Could the cord be attached to the bottom of a cabinet, go through a hole
in the cabinet bottom and into a junction box inside the cabinet? From
there a properly sized run of Romex could go into the wall and to the source.

I suggest this as means to avoid having a surface mounted box out in the open.

posted for all of us...



On Fri, 26 Feb 2016 06:02:36 -0700, WTF wrote:

On 02/26/2016 05:36 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:10:39 AM UTC-5, WTF wrote:
On 02/25/2016 06:46 PM, trader_4 wrote:
What happens when you hard wire any light fixture that has 18 gauge wires
into a 15 or 20A circuit?
And what happens when some numbnutz loads a light fixture up with
a couple of these cuz they're too cheap to install proper outlets?

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-1403-O.../dp/B001F71O70
The same thing that happens when people put in bulbs that exceed the
fixture rating, use an extension cord that too small for the loads, etc.
None of those are prevented by whether a breaker is 15A or 20A either.
How come the government doesn't protect me from that?

The fire fighter's union is creating jobs? ;-)

YEAH, except I'm only a volley and not union. Put the wet stuff on the red
stuff. Never lost a foundation yet...

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 11:28:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:07:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 05:50:24 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I haven't followed this conversation,
Obviously.

Yep, I only have partial information to go on.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

It is not a complicated circuit, but yes there are code issues to consider.

1. It is standard practice in remodel work to extend a circuit for a new
outlet or fixture. The biggest issue I can think of would be box fill
requirements in the source box. I did mention the number of cables and size
of the box as a factor in my initial reply.

2. Wire gauge. I DID ask the OP "why" they were using 12 gauge wire.
Obviously, if the circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker you would need
to use 12 gauge wire on that circuit (14 gauge wire could overheat before
the 20A breaker would trip). Otherwise, 14 gauge wire would be more than
adequate for an LED fixture.

3. Obviously, you can't use standard lamp cord inside a wall. You would
need to use rated cable such as Romex.

4. Connection at the lamp. Ideally the fixture would be designed for hard
wiring, with a proper cable clamp and space in the fixture to make
connections with wire nuts. Unfortunately, many undercabinet fixtures are
made to plug in. The obvious solution would be to install an outlet near
the fixture where the lamp could be plugged in. Unless the lamp
manufacturer provides a certified junction box of some type, there aren't
many low profile options that can fit under a cabinet.

My use of crimp connectors is certainly "NOT" code compliant, but done
properly it is a safe installation as long as the splice is not buried in a
wall and the cables are properly secured.


Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.
I see the real issue with this installation is the cord to the lamp.
This is using the provisions of "fixture wires" that allow an 18 gauge
conductor to be hard wired to a branch circuit. Typically that will be
in a box that is part of the listed product or where the fixture
canopy acts as the cover for a regular device box.
If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Thank you! I was hoping you'd respond. :-)

You have essentially confirmed what I considered the main issue with this
installation: That pesky flexible cord.

Could the cord be attached to the bottom of a cabinet, go through a hole
in the cabinet bottom and into a junction box inside the cabinet? From
there a properly sized run of Romex could go into the wall and to the source.

I suggest this as means to avoid having a surface mounted box out in the open.
Absolutely but at that point, why not just put a duplex receptacle in
there and put a plug on the cord. Then you would have another outlet
for something else.
A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:08:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 11:28:15 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 12:07:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 05:50:24 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

I haven't followed this conversation,
Obviously.

Yep, I only have partial information to go on.

So far, you're the only one here who thinks it's simple, with no
major code problems.

It is not a complicated circuit, but yes there are code issues to consider.

1. It is standard practice in remodel work to extend a circuit for a new
outlet or fixture. The biggest issue I can think of would be box fill
requirements in the source box. I did mention the number of cables and size
of the box as a factor in my initial reply.

2. Wire gauge. I DID ask the OP "why" they were using 12 gauge wire.
Obviously, if the circuit is protected by a 20 amp breaker you would need
to use 12 gauge wire on that circuit (14 gauge wire could overheat before
the 20A breaker would trip). Otherwise, 14 gauge wire would be more than
adequate for an LED fixture.

3. Obviously, you can't use standard lamp cord inside a wall. You would
need to use rated cable such as Romex.

4. Connection at the lamp. Ideally the fixture would be designed for hard
wiring, with a proper cable clamp and space in the fixture to make
connections with wire nuts. Unfortunately, many undercabinet fixtures are
made to plug in. The obvious solution would be to install an outlet near
the fixture where the lamp could be plugged in. Unless the lamp
manufacturer provides a certified junction box of some type, there aren't
many low profile options that can fit under a cabinet.

My use of crimp connectors is certainly "NOT" code compliant, but done
properly it is a safe installation as long as the splice is not buried in a
wall and the cables are properly secured.


Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.
I see the real issue with this installation is the cord to the lamp.
This is using the provisions of "fixture wires" that allow an 18 gauge
conductor to be hard wired to a branch circuit. Typically that will be
in a box that is part of the listed product or where the fixture
canopy acts as the cover for a regular device box.
If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Thank you! I was hoping you'd respond. :-)

You have essentially confirmed what I considered the main issue with this
installation: That pesky flexible cord.

Could the cord be attached to the bottom of a cabinet, go through a hole
in the cabinet bottom and into a junction box inside the cabinet? From
there a properly sized run of Romex could go into the wall and to the source.

I suggest this as means to avoid having a surface mounted box out in the open.
Absolutely but at that point, why not just put a duplex receptacle in
there and put a plug on the cord. Then you would have another outlet
for something else.

I assume you mean a duplex inside the cabinet, right?

Just in case you missed it, the OP has stated he does not want to plug the fixture
into the existing counter receptacle.

Would it need to be GFCI protected? It couldn't be on the counter appliance circuit,
could it?

A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.

Just curious, if that was mounted outside the cabinet, how would it be distinguished as
not being a counter receptacle?

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 15:44:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:08:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Absolutely but at that point, why not just put a duplex receptacle in
there and put a plug on the cord. Then you would have another outlet
for something else.

I assume you mean a duplex inside the cabinet, right?

yes

Just in case you missed it, the OP has stated he does not want to plug the fixture
into the existing counter receptacle.

Would it need to be GFCI protected? It couldn't be on the counter appliance circuit,
could it?


No it doesn't need to be GFCI, unless it is within 6' of the sink but
it would still be on one of the small appliance circuits.
We have 2 different issues. All 120v receptacles in the kitchen,
dining room, pantry etc need to be 20a with no other outlets (except
for a 15a refrigeration outlet) but only the ones serving the
countertop need GFCI. You will also be picking up wall receptacles in
the dining or similar rooms on the SA circuits but they don't have to
be GFCI.
If you do not avail yourself of the reefer exception, you can put the
fridge on a SA circuit, before or after the GFCI.
There is nothing to say you can't have more than 2 SA circuits. It
just says they all have to be 20a and only serve the areas that
require SA circuits. (you can't go through the wall and serve the
outside deck)
After the 2014 is adopted in your area, it would need to be AFCI
(including 30ma GF protection)


A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.

Just curious, if that was mounted outside the cabinet, how would it be distinguished as
not being a counter receptacle?

210.52(C)(5) specifically says receptacles in appliance garages (a
cabinet) are not accessible as counter top receptacles.
It ia also likely to be greater than 20" above the countertop (another
qualifier).

As long as you have 2 "clean" SA circuits in a kitchen remodel they
will usually give you a break if some of the other circuits are
shared. At my house, the fridge is on with the bathroom vanity light
and the lights in the attic. I didn't see it as an issue and when the
Lee County guy inspected me he never even asked because that wall was
not opened up. I did pull in 2 clean circuits and left the old ones so
I have lots of power in the kitchen.

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 7:48:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 15:44:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, February 27, 2016 at 6:08:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Absolutely but at that point, why not just put a duplex receptacle in
there and put a plug on the cord. Then you would have another outlet
for something else.

I assume you mean a duplex inside the cabinet, right?

yes

Just in case you missed it, the OP has stated he does not want to plug the fixture
into the existing counter receptacle.

Would it need to be GFCI protected? It couldn't be on the counter appliance circuit,
could it?


No it doesn't need to be GFCI, unless it is within 6' of the sink but
it would still be on one of the small appliance circuits.
We have 2 different issues. All 120v receptacles in the kitchen,
dining room, pantry etc need to be 20a with no other outlets (except
for a 15a refrigeration outlet) but only the ones serving the
countertop need GFCI. You will also be picking up wall receptacles in
the dining or similar rooms on the SA circuits but they don't have to
be GFCI.
If you do not avail yourself of the reefer exception, you can put the
fridge on a SA circuit, before or after the GFCI.
There is nothing to say you can't have more than 2 SA circuits. It
just says they all have to be 20a and only serve the areas that
require SA circuits. (you can't go through the wall and serve the
outside deck)
After the 2014 is adopted in your area, it would need to be AFCI
(including 30ma GF protection)


A "wiremold" box is designed for surface mount and really does not
look that bad. They are also pretty shallow.

Just curious, if that was mounted outside the cabinet, how would it be distinguished as
not being a counter receptacle?

210.52(C)(5) specifically says receptacles in appliance garages (a
cabinet) are not accessible as counter top receptacles.
It ia also likely to be greater than 20" above the countertop (another
qualifier).

As long as you have 2 "clean" SA circuits in a kitchen remodel they
will usually give you a break if some of the other circuits are
shared. At my house, the fridge is on with the bathroom vanity light
and the lights in the attic. I didn't see it as an issue and when the
Lee County guy inspected me he never even asked because that wall was
not opened up. I did pull in 2 clean circuits and left the old ones so
I have lots of power in the kitchen.

As always, thank you for sharing your expertise.

On Sat, 27 Feb 2016 01:16:46 -0800, T wrote:

Ya, I do owe you one. If for nothing else for having endure
Trump's kids hair cut!

The things I do for my fellow man. His hair reminded me of the
plastic hair used by The Flying Elvises parachute team over Vegas,
only shorter :-\

Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.

I recently replaced our old fluorescent undercabinet lamps with new LED
fixtures. Unfortunately, I could not find a junction box thin enough to
mount under my cabinet. The romex cable already came out of the wall, so I
used crimp connectors and heat shrink tubing to connect the transformer
cord to the romex. I'm sure it doesn't meet code, but it's secure and
easily accessable from under the cabinet.

If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Could he install the outlet above the cabinet, then run the lamp cord
through the cabinet to plug in the outlet above (with some kind of physical
protection for the cord)?

I used that method when we remodeled my in-laws house, but I had built
dedicated chases in the cabinets for the cord to pass through. Once the
cabinets were installed, I simply slipped the lamp cord up through the
chase and plugged them into the outlets above. The outlets aren't visible
from below unless you stand on a ladder.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 1:13:46 AM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.

I recently replaced our old fluorescent undercabinet lamps with new LED
fixtures. Unfortunately, I could not find a junction box thin enough to
mount under my cabinet. The romex cable already came out of the wall, so I
used crimp connectors and heat shrink tubing to connect the transformer
cord to the romex. I'm sure it doesn't meet code, but it's secure and
easily accessable from under the cabinet.

If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Could he install the outlet above the cabinet, then run the lamp cord
through the cabinet to plug in the outlet above (with some kind of physical
protection for the cord)?

I used that method when we remodeled my in-laws house, but I had built
dedicated chases in the cabinets for the cord to pass through. Once the
cabinets were installed, I simply slipped the lamp cord up through the
chase and plugged them into the outlets above. The outlets aren't visible
from below unless you stand on a ladder.


Could you describe the "dedicated chase"? It sounds as if it's inside the wall.
It that correct?

On Sun, 28 Feb 2016 06:10:41 -0000 (UTC), HerHusband
wrote:

Crimp connections are legal splices if used in the proper enclosure.

I recently replaced our old fluorescent undercabinet lamps with new LED
fixtures. Unfortunately, I could not find a junction box thin enough to
mount under my cabinet. The romex cable already came out of the wall, so I
used crimp connectors and heat shrink tubing to connect the transformer
cord to the romex. I'm sure it doesn't meet code, but it's secure and
easily accessable from under the cabinet.

If he ran this cord to a surface mounted box and used a suitable entry
connector I doubt any inspector would have a problem with it but if
this cord goes into a wall, it is clearly a violation.

Could he install the outlet above the cabinet, then run the lamp cord
through the cabinet to plug in the outlet above (with some kind of physical
protection for the cord)?

I used that method when we remodeled my in-laws house, but I had built
dedicated chases in the cabinets for the cord to pass through. Once the
cabinets were installed, I simply slipped the lamp cord up through the
chase and plugged them into the outlets above. The outlets aren't visible
from below unless you stand on a ladder.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

They have some cord protecting stuff that just sticks to surfaces. It
is a plastic "C" shaped stuff that the cord snaps into then you peel
and stick. Legal and not bad looking.

Could he install the outlet above the cabinet, then run the lamp cord
through the cabinet to plug in the outlet above (with some kind of
physical protection for the cord)?

I used that method when we remodeled my in-laws house, but I had
built dedicated chases in the cabinets for the cord to pass through.
Once the cabinets were installed, I simply slipped the lamp cord up
through the chase and plugged them into the outlets above. The
outlets aren't visible from below unless you stand on a ladder.

Could you describe the "dedicated chase"?

The upper cabinets at my in-laws kitchen are L-shaped in the corner of the
room:

http://www.watsondiy.com/2011kitchen.htm

Because the walls were out of plumb and the cabinets referenced off the
stove area, I planned a one inch gap in the back corner where the cabinets
met. I simply passed the lamp cords up this gap and plugged them into a
switched outlet above.

On the left side of the stove I built a special cabinet with two layers of
plywood on one side. I routed a half inch groove in each layer, giving me a
full one inch slot to pass the cord up from the bottom to the top of the
cabinet. You can just barely see the slot in bottom right side of the
cabinet, in the photos where they are laying on my garage floor (a bit
easier to see in the unfinished cabinets).

In both cases the cord is on the outside of the wall, just passing through
the empty spaces in or around the cabinets. The cord is protected and
completely out of sight, but plugs into a standard outlet. As you can see
in the final photos, the outlets are not visible above the cabinets, even
when standing on the other side of the room. I did mount those outlets
horizontally to minimize how far they stuck up above the cabinets (visible
in the photo with the bare sheetrock).

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

On Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 6:06:06 PM UTC-5, HerHusband wrote:
Could he install the outlet above the cabinet, then run the lamp cord
through the cabinet to plug in the outlet above (with some kind of
physical protection for the cord)?

I used that method when we remodeled my in-laws house, but I had
built dedicated chases in the cabinets for the cord to pass through.
Once the cabinets were installed, I simply slipped the lamp cord up
through the chase and plugged them into the outlets above. The
outlets aren't visible from below unless you stand on a ladder.

Could you describe the "dedicated chase"?

The upper cabinets at my in-laws kitchen are L-shaped in the corner of the
room:

http://www.watsondiy.com/2011kitchen.htm

Because the walls were out of plumb and the cabinets referenced off the
stove area, I planned a one inch gap in the back corner where the cabinets
met. I simply passed the lamp cords up this gap and plugged them into a
switched outlet above.

On the left side of the stove I built a special cabinet with two layers of
plywood on one side. I routed a half inch groove in each layer, giving me a
full one inch slot to pass the cord up from the bottom to the top of the
cabinet. You can just barely see the slot in bottom right side of the
cabinet, in the photos where they are laying on my garage floor (a bit
easier to see in the unfinished cabinets).

In both cases the cord is on the outside of the wall, just passing through
the empty spaces in or around the cabinets. The cord is protected and
completely out of sight, but plugs into a standard outlet. As you can see
in the final photos, the outlets are not visible above the cabinets, even
when standing on the other side of the room. I did mount those outlets
horizontally to minimize how far they stuck up above the cabinets (visible
in the photo with the bare sheetrock).

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Nice planning. Nice kitchen.

Man, the old one was pretty beat!

http://www.watsondiy.com/2011kitchen.htm
Nice planning. Nice kitchen.
Man, the old one was pretty beat!

Thanks. Yeah, the old kitchen was long overdue for a remodel. They lived
there 50+ years, but when we gutted the room we could see framing for
different windows indicating it had been remodeled at some point before
that (the house is approx 100 years old).

The old kitchen was only 8 feet wide, and actually had a dining table in it
too (under the cabinets on the right). To make matters worse, it had
doorways at each end, making it the major path to the bathroom and back
door. If anyone was working in the kitchen, you could barely get past them
to access the bathroom.

They had to replace their refrigerator a few years before we remodeled and
the new fridge was a bit deeper than the old one. So much so that they
couldn't open the door because it would hit the dining table. As a quick
fix, I built them a smaller dining table (See "dining table" on the page
below):

http://www.watsondiy.com/woodworking.htm

We moved the interior doorway to the center of the room, and expanded a
4'x8' section onto the old porch. The difference in usable space is
amazing. Several people can stand in the kitchen now and still not get in
the way.

It's still a small kitchen, but it's a huge improvement from what they had
before.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

I wish I had known someone who does such great work before I put together a few things for our house.

I really enjoy seeing such great "handwork" in this era of mass production of almost everything that touches our lives.

On 2/28/2016 11:50 PM, HerHusband wrote:
http://www.watsondiy.com/2011kitchen.htm
Nice planning. Nice kitchen.
Man, the old one was pretty beat!

Thanks. Yeah, the old kitchen was long overdue for a remodel. They lived
there 50+ years, but when we gutted the room we could see framing for
different windows indicating it had been remodeled at some point before
that (the house is approx 100 years old).

The old kitchen was only 8 feet wide, and actually had a dining table in it
too (under the cabinets on the right). To make matters worse, it had
doorways at each end, making it the major path to the bathroom and back
door. If anyone was working in the kitchen, you could barely get past them
to access the bathroom.

They had to replace their refrigerator a few years before we remodeled and
the new fridge was a bit deeper than the old one. So much so that they
couldn't open the door because it would hit the dining table. As a quick
fix, I built them a smaller dining table (See "dining table" on the page
below):

http://www.watsondiy.com/woodworking.htm

We moved the interior doorway to the center of the room, and expanded a
4'x8' section onto the old porch. The difference in usable space is
amazing. Several people can stand in the kitchen now and still not get in
the way.

It's still a small kitchen, but it's a huge improvement from what they had
before.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com


That really is a nice kitchen!

--
Maggie