wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 03:05:48 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:12:06 -0800, Tony944 wrote:
osition to help,
HOW ABOUT CALL ELECTRICIAN???

Why does this newsgroup exist if that's the answer?

Because some of us know what we're doing. I'm always willing to assist
others on this NG, but electricity can KILL. I read between the lines,
and I can "read" their skill level, and I am not going to assist someone
with killing themselves. This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

I agree, CALL AN ELECTRICIAN !

If he was trying to replace a door, but showed the same lack of basic
carpentry skills, I'd still be willing to assist, because doors dont
kill people if they make a slight mistake.

Also some of you who are in a position to help, start out with a step by
step questions to narrow down the cause of issue(s). Rather than asking
to do this and that right off the bat.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:30:52 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

The OP dont know ANYTHING about electrical,

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:42:40 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

Heh heh ... I'm a (retired) EE.

So that's funny.

BTW, if you know anything about electrical engineers, they
typically don't learn anything practical (in school) about
home wiring.

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Nothing whatsoever about typical mains wiring.

On 1/21/2016 1:30 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:42:40 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

Heh heh ... I'm a (retired) EE.

So that's funny.

BTW, if you know anything about electrical engineers, they
typically don't learn anything practical (in school) about
home wiring.

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Perhaps, but then paintedcow knows a great deal about nothing and even
when someone attempts to cure his ignorance, he doubles down and says
something even more stupid.

Do let us know the final outcome on this. With the additional details
you've provided, it seems almost certain to be a circuit breaker that's
simply given up the ghost. That said, I think there's usually a reason
other than "its time has come"g for breakers to give up. Wondering if
you've normally got enough of a load on that 15A circuit to heat it up
and that that may have caused the failure.

On 1/21/2016 2:30 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:42:40 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

Heh heh ... I'm a (retired) EE.

So that's funny.

BTW, if you know anything about electrical engineers, they
typically don't learn anything practical (in school) about
home wiring.

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Nothing whatsoever about typical mains wiring.


I did meet a person like that. The electric light
in his cellar wasn't working right. I got to show
him how to shut the breaker, and replace a light
switch.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/20/2016 10:05 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:12:06 -0800, Tony944 wrote:

HOW ABOUT CALL ELECTRICIAN???

Why does this newsgroup exist if that's the answer?


Truly profound. I mean, like, I can totally relate.

As a couple other folks have mentioned, it's good to
have some basic understanding, and then come here for
the details. For example, when I asked about adding
hot or cold water to my floor model residential
humidifier, I got told a lot of things, none of which
answered my question. Sigh. Guess I can't win on that
one.

You did get some really good answers, including to just
pull the breaker out and replace it, they often aren't
that expensive. Also swap two black wires, and see if the
problem follows the wire or the breaker.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 2:30:31 AM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:42:40 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

Heh heh ... I'm a (retired) EE.

So that's funny.

BTW, if you know anything about electrical engineers, they
typically don't learn anything practical (in school) about
home wiring.

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Nothing whatsoever about typical mains wiring.

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 7:21:29 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 2:30:31 AM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:42:40 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

Heh heh ... I'm a (retired) EE.

So that's funny.

BTW, if you know anything about electrical engineers, they
typically don't learn anything practical (in school) about
home wiring.

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Nothing whatsoever about typical mains wiring.

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

Isn't *that* what he's saying, and why he is asking questions? Jezus!

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 3:37:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.


Ingenious. Simple and workable.

If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too. Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Nothing whatsoever about typical mains wiring.

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

I can understand that. Just because one knows the theory about things does
not mean he will have trouble shooting abilities even on something simple.
I doubt the EE degree even mentions home wireing or simple breakers for the
house. I went to a 2 year technical college for electronics engineering and
did not get into the simple things. Lots of time on theory and none on how
to repair things that did not work.

I went to work in a large plant and delt with things as large as 480 volt 3
phaase at 500 amps. Almost nothing in the plant ran on 120 volts except in
some offices, so did not get much about the simple things you would find
around the house.

"E. Robinson" writes:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:12:06 -0800, Tony944 wrote:

HOW ABOUT CALL ELECTRICIAN???

Why does this newsgroup exist if that's the answer?


For advice on the many thousands of things a homeowner
is qualified to repair without danger.

Electrical work isn't one of them.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:30:37 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

For advice on the many thousands of things a homeowner
is qualified to repair without danger.

Electrical work isn't one of them.

It's fixed.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:07:38 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

You did get some really good answers, including to just
pull the breaker out and replace it, they often aren't
that expensive. Also swap two black wires, and see if the
problem follows the wire or the breaker.

The best answer was to shut the mains off, and then test
the circuit breaker. That is a great test, and it showed
the problem.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:21:26 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

The tricks that I was asking about, most people here didn't
even know themselves.

I'm not blaming anyone for not knowing the tricks, but, just by
way of example some folks would have me pull the breaker, to test
its operation, but, a SIMPLER way to test it is to just shut
the mains first.

Then see if the breaker still trips.
That checks, for example, for mechanical problems.

That's the kind of *practical* pragmatic advice I was looking
for. Ohms law is just fine and dandy (duh, there was a short),
but the question was how best to *find* that short given
all the wires are in the walls.

Anyway, it's solved now, thanks to the combined advice here.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:27:30 -0800, bob_villain wrote:

Isn't *that* what he's saying, and why he is asking questions? Jezus!

Thank you for understanding.

To know the electrical equations that are involved in making
a motor spin doesn't mean I know jack **** in practical
terms about fixing electrical motors.

Since *all* the wiring was hidden, and since there was obviously
a dead short *somewhere*, I was asking for hints on how to find
that.

Sure, Ohms law is telling me that the current shoots up when
the short causes near-zero impedance, but, heck, that doesn't
tell me practically how to test for the short.

BTW, the trick of shutting off the mains and then testing the
circuit seems to be a great time saver for testing the breaker
itself.

They do *not* teach you that stuff in college.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:23:52 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I can understand that. Just because one knows the theory about things does
not mean he will have trouble shooting abilities even on something simple.
I doubt the EE degree even mentions home wireing or simple breakers for the
house.

I'm sure every school is different, but you are correct.
Not once do they mention the wiring of the home.
So, if you didn't already know that it's 110VAC 60Hz, you're not gonna
learn that at school with an EE degree.

Neither do they really cover power transmission.

The sort of hint at it when they cover transformers and when they cover
the skin effect and AC impedance, but, not once in the entire college
education of a typical EE does he see a circuit breaker.

I went to a 2 year technical college for electronics engineering and
did not get into the simple things. Lots of time on theory and none on how
to repair things that did not work.

Yup. I mean, they cover transformers, in all their configurations, and
phase shift, and they cover single phase, two phase, three phase power, etc.,
but not once do they show you a typical power transformer that is on your
telephone pole, although they do theoretically cover load balancing.

I went to work in a large plant and delt with things as large as 480 volt 3
phaase at 500 amps. Almost nothing in the plant ran on 120 volts except in
some offices, so did not get much about the simple things you would find
around the house.

That's another thing they NEVER cover in electrical engineering!
They never tell you that it's roughly 400 volts on the distribution lines
and tens of thousands of volts on the transmission lines and they never
cover how the ground differs from the neutral in a typical home system.

In fact, as I said, not once in 4 years did they cover anything related
to a typical home system. Of course, as someone noted, Ohms law still
holds sway, but that simply tells me I have a short.

But FINDING the short was where I needed your help.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:00:24 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:07:38 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

You did get some really good answers, including to just
pull the breaker out and replace it, they often aren't
that expensive. Also swap two black wires, and see if the
problem follows the wire or the breaker.

The best answer was to shut the mains off, and then test
the circuit breaker. That is a great test, and it showed
the problem.

Great!

And thanks for getting back to the group.

One common scenario he the OP writes in with a problem, the group discusses back and forth, the OP disappears, the thread dies, the thread is resurrected 10 years later, the argument continues.

Just a comment: the sooner you are sure what is wrong, the more you find it impossible to see contrary evidence. Troubleshooting is best with an open mind. And don't forget there can be a bad breaker AND a short.

I looked up breaker longevity some time ago and don't remember the exact numbers, but they were in this neighborhood. A breaker can be turned on and off something like 30,000 times before it wears out. It can trip on mild overload maybe 1-3000 times. But a dead short drawing full available current will kill it in 1 to 2 times.

On 1/21/2016 3:00 PM, E. Robinson wrote:

The best answer was to shut the mains off, and then test
the circuit breaker. That is a great test, and it showed
the problem.


Ah, so you had a loose neutral, then? Or was it
some other problem?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:40:15 -0800, TimR wrote:
You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......
Turn off the main breaker.
Now try to turn on the bad breaker.
If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.

Ingenious. Simple and workable.
If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too.
Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

That is the kind of a.h.r advice I was looking for!

It worked perfectly!

In fact, your approach worked so perfectly, that it, um, uh, er.... it SOLVED the problem!
Huh? What?

The problem is gone?
Just like that?

Well, not exactly (it couldn't have solved the problem), but this is what happened!

1. The "bad" breaker was in the off position.
2. Unfortunately, I didn't think to test it today (last tested 2 days ago).
3. I went outside and turned the mains off.
4. I went to the breaker panel, and turned the "bad" breaker on.
5. It stayed in the on position!
6. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
7. It stayed in the on position!
8. I left it in the on position.
9. I went outside, and flipped the mains back on.
10. I had expected the "bad" circuit to trip.
11. Huh? It was still in the on position.
12. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
13. It worked perfectly fine.
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:14:52 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ah, so you had a loose neutral, then? Or was it
some other problem?

Here's the somewhat hard to fathom explanation I gave in another post.


On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:40:15 -0800, TimR wrote:

You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.


Ingenious. Simple and workable.

If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too. Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

That is the kind of a.h.r advice I was looking for!

It worked perfectly!

In fact, your approach worked so perfectly, that it, um, uh, er.... it SOLVED the problem!

Well, not exactly (it couldn't have solved the problem), but this is what happened!

1. The "bad" breaker was in the off position.
2. Unfortunately, I didn't think to test it today (last tested 2 days ago).
3. I went outside and turned the mains off.
4. I went to the breaker panel, and turned the "bad" breaker on.
5. It stayed in the on position!
6. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
7. It stayed in the on position!
8. I left it in the on position.
9. I went outside, and flipped the mains back on.
10. I had expected the "bad" circuit to trip.
11. Huh? It was still in the on position.
12. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
13. It worked perfectly fine.
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:14:03 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:00:24 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:07:38 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

You did get some really good answers, including to just
pull the breaker out and replace it, they often aren't
that expensive. Also swap two black wires, and see if the
problem follows the wire or the breaker.

The best answer was to shut the mains off, and then test
the circuit breaker. That is a great test, and it showed
the problem.

Great!

And thanks for getting back to the group.

One common scenario he the OP writes in with a problem, the group discusses back and forth, the OP disappears, the thread dies, the thread is resurrected 10 years later, the argument continues.

Just a comment: the sooner you are sure what is wrong, the more you find it impossible to see contrary evidence. Troubleshooting is best with an open mind. And don't forget there can be a bad breaker AND a short.

I looked up breaker longevity some time ago and don't remember the
exact numbers, but they were in this neighborhood.

A breaker can be turned on and off something like 30,000 times
before it wears out.

....on average.

It can trip on mild overload maybe 1-3000 times.

....on average.

But a dead short drawing full available current will kill it in
1 to 2 times.

....on average.

You forgot: A breaker could be bad right out of the box or still work
after more than 50,000 on-off cycles.

On 01/21/2016 2:15 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
....

16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

Not at all unusual for a bulb catastrophic failure to pop a circuit on
the instantaneous failure if it fails as in 'pop!'.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

I hadn't seen the thread but sounds to me like perhaps you didn't
actually reset it before trying to turn it back on...most (all?) require
a manual "push _fully_ off" to reset after a trip; if you don't they're
not reset.

I'm guessing this time your movement did include enough in the "off"
direction to do the reset.

Easy enough to test...

--

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 8:27:37 AM UTC-5, bob_villain wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 7:21:29 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 2:30:31 AM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:42:40 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

Heh heh ... I'm a (retired) EE.

So that's funny.

BTW, if you know anything about electrical engineers, they
typically don't learn anything practical (in school) about
home wiring.

It's all about poles and zeros and Kirchoff's law and
fourier transforms and delta/Y transformers and Spice
simulations and diffusion doping and Maxwell's equations
and Coulomb's law and Faraday's Law and Ohm's law,
and c=dv/dt and phase diagrams and polar plots,
and cascade versus cascode configurations and
emitters and gates, etc.

Nothing whatsoever about typical mains wiring.

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

Isn't *that* what he's saying, and why he is asking questions? Jezus!

I guess you missed the part where he said he's an electrical engineer.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:21:26 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

The tricks that I was asking about, most people here didn't
even know themselves.


It's a trick for an EE to figure out that you could quickly debug
it by switching the wire from an adjacent breaker? I can understand
an EE not having knowledge of NEC requirements, etc, but come on, this
is very basic stuff.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 14:26:20 -0600, dpb wrote:

I hadn't seen the thread but sounds to me like perhaps you didn't
actually reset it before trying to turn it back on...most (all?) require
a manual "push _fully_ off" to reset after a trip; if you don't they're
not reset.

I'm guessing this time your movement did include enough in the "off"
direction to do the reset

It constantly wouldn't set.

I flipped that circuit breaker scores of times from fully off to fully
on (I have a lot of experience with circuit breakers, just like anyone
here would - even if I've only replaced one in my entire life).

I can only think of three scenarios that make sense because the short
was not momentary. It lasted for hours two days ago.

At the time I was actively flipping the breaker, so, it wasn't a
*momentary* short (the only thing I could find wrong was one bad
bulb in a set of five in a ceiling lamp).

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:38:53 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:21:26 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

Ohm's Law and all the rest of the basics don't apply to how to debug
what amounts to a fancy switch? Good grief.

The tricks that I was asking about, most people here didn't
even know themselves.


It's a trick for an EE to figure out that you could quickly debug
it by switching the wire from an adjacent breaker? I can understand
an EE not having knowledge of NEC requirements, etc, but come on, this
is very basic stuff.

I have a BSEE. I had it before I owned a house. I couldn't spell Romex until I
bought a house, realized that I needed more circuits and started learning
about home wiring, on my own and with help from this ng, 30+ years ago.

Just because one of the E's stands for "Electrical" it doesn't mean that
home wiring, car wiring, boat wiring, etc. is even mentioned, never mind
taught. I can't recall one course that would have led to me consider pulling the cover off of the breaker panel, loosening that little screw and pulling out the black wire to test a breaker.

Do you think a person with a Hydraulic Engineering degree automatically
knows how to sweat pipe? They learn all about water don't they?

Do you think that a person with Aerospace Engineering degree automatically
know hows to fix a jet engine? They learn all about air and space travel,
don't they?

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:36:10 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

I guess you missed the part where he said he's an electrical engineer.

I'm not sure which tack you're taking on the topic of what an EE knows
about typical home wiring, but, I'll just reiterate that *this* is the
kind of stuff we learn in Electrical Engineering!

Pic 1: the books https://i.imgur.com/ucDK1ea.jpg
Pic 2: the circuits https://i.imgur.com/q9bz2yZ.jpg
Pic 3: the formulas https://i.imgur.com/v9GHcnT.jpg

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:38:43 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

It's a trick for an EE to figure out that you could quickly debug
it by switching the wire from an adjacent breaker? I can understand
an EE not having knowledge of NEC requirements, etc, but come on, this
is very basic stuff.

This is the kind of stuff we learn in EE ...

Pic 1: the books https://i.imgur.com/ucDK1ea.jpg
Pic 2: the circuits https://i.imgur.com/q9bz2yZ.jpg
Pic 3: the formulas https://i.imgur.com/v9GHcnT.jpg

In ,
E. Robinson typed:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:14:52 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ah, so you had a loose neutral, then? Or was it
some other problem?

Here's the somewhat hard to fathom explanation I gave in another post.


On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:40:15 -0800, TimR wrote:

You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the
panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is
definilty bad.


Ingenious. Simple and workable.

If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too.
Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

That is the kind of a.h.r advice I was looking for!

It worked perfectly!

In fact, your approach worked so perfectly, that it, um, uh, er....
it SOLVED the problem!

Well, not exactly (it couldn't have solved the problem), but this is
what happened!

1. The "bad" breaker was in the off position.
2. Unfortunately, I didn't think to test it today (last tested 2 days
ago).
3. I went outside and turned the mains off.
4. I went to the breaker panel, and turned the "bad" breaker on.
5. It stayed in the on position!
6. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
7. It stayed in the on position!
8. I left it in the on position.
9. I went outside, and flipped the mains back on.
10. I had expected the "bad" circuit to trip.
11. Huh? It was still in the on position.
12. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
13. It worked perfectly fine.
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt
out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I
know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain
stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

I just wanted to mention that the symptoms that you originally described are
no longer present, apparently as a result of you following the above steps.
But, as you indicated, that doesn't explain why the problem occurred in the
first place.

So, at this point, we don't really know what caused the original problem and
symptoms.

I had similar situation and set of symptoms once with the electrical panel
in a tenant occupied single family home. The complaint was that one of the
breakers would trip every once in a while and that the tenant would reset
the breaker and everything would be okay. Then, the current problem became
that she sometimes had problems getting the breaker to reset and finally she
was unable to get the breaker to reset at all. She also mentioned smelling
a faint odor of something burning near the panel (which I know was not one
of your symptoms).

I went there and, like you, I wasn't able to reset the breaker. I could
switch it to "off", but on reset, it would just trip again. And, like you,
I noticed a slight spark on one of my reset attempts. When I turned the
main breaker off, I could reset the problem breaker, and when I turned the
main power back on the problem breaker stayed on and everything worked.
But, I wasn't convinced that the problem was resolved even though the
breaker did reset and didn't trip.

So, I turned off the main power and I removed the breaker. That's when I
saw that the center terminal to which the breaker attaches was melted.

Apparently, there was some type of loose contact between the breaker and the
center terminal and it must have been causing some type of arcing that
heated up the terminal to the point that it melted.

What I did then was take that breaker completely out. I bought a new
breaker for that circuit but I moved the new breaker to a different position
in the panel box where it would connect to a perfectly good center terminal.
I put a snap-in cover plate in the space on the panel cover where the
original breaker had been located (I forget what they are called) to cover
the hole that was created by removing the original breaker.

That completely solved the problem and there has been no problem since then.

So, even though the symptoms that you experienced are now gone, you may want
to try unsnapping that breaker and one or two nearby and look to see what
the terminals underneath look like. Of course, turn the power off first and
be sure to use all of the necessary precautions regarding any part of the
panel that may still be live even with the main circuit breaker off.

Maybe your problem is now fixed, or maybe you will see evidence of arcing
and burning where the breaker contacts the center terminal.

It is worth a look just in case.

"TimR" wrote in message
...
I looked up breaker longevity some time ago and don't remember the exact
numbers, but they were in this neighborhood. A breaker can be turned on
and off something like 30,000 times before it wears out. It can trip on
mild overload maybe 1-3000 times. But a dead short drawing full available
current will kill it in 1 to 2 times.

Some breakers are made to be used as switches and some are not. The ones
made to be used for switching could be used in a place where the lights are
cut off and on every day. If the incorrect breaker was used, it could wear
out very fast.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 2:15:53 PM UTC-6, E. Robinson wrote:

16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

I've had bulbs cause a dead-short...the wires that hold the filament get crossed.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 4:11:59 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:36:10 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

I guess you missed the part where he said he's an electrical engineer.

I'm not sure which tack you're taking on the topic of what an EE knows
about typical home wiring, but, I'll just reiterate that *this* is the
kind of stuff we learn in Electrical Engineering!

Pic 1: the books https://i.imgur.com/ucDK1ea.jpg
Pic 2: the circuits https://i.imgur.com/q9bz2yZ.jpg
Pic 3: the formulas https://i.imgur.com/v9GHcnT.jpg

I'm an electrical engineer myself. I also knew how to debug that
breaker by just moving a wire from an adjacent breaker when I was
10 years old. I was building all kinds of hobby projects that
were more complicated than that. Electric eyes for example,
using photocells and transistors. Really, what
is education coming to in America when you can get a degree in
electrical engineering and not be able to debug a simple house
circuit. Sorry, just the truth, painful as it may be.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:00:29 -0800, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I have a BSEE. I had it before I owned a house. I couldn't spell Romex until I
bought a house, realized that I needed more circuits and started learning
about home wiring, on my own and with help from this ng, 30+ years ago.

Exactly my point!

Here is my Spice circuit simulation book next to the home breaker panel:
https://i.imgur.com/60Qidcn.jpg

Does anyone think this transient analysis will help me debug my wiring?
https://i.imgur.com/qFgZCHe.jpg

Just because one of the E's stands for "Electrical" it doesn't mean that
home wiring, car wiring, boat wiring, etc. is even mentioned, never mind
taught. I can't recall one course that would have led to me consider
pulling the cover off of the breaker panel, loosening that little screw
and pulling out the black wire to test a breaker.

Exactly my point.

Here is my book on design of Phase Locked Loops.
https://i.imgur.com/d3sGHHM.jpg

Does anyone think this waveform information will help me debug my panel?
https://i.imgur.com/GnqfSkx.jpg

Do you think a person with a Hydraulic Engineering degree automatically
knows how to sweat pipe? They learn all about water don't they?

Do you think that a person with Aerospace Engineering degree automatically
know hows to fix a jet engine? They learn all about air and space travel,
don't they?

Exactly my point.

Here is my book on VLSI Engineering next to the panel?
https://i.imgur.com/lTGthZ7.jpg

Does anyone think these pages on doping will help me debug my home wiring?
https://i.imgur.com/PfCVxGA.jpg

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 4:22:12 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 4:11:59 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:36:10 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

I guess you missed the part where he said he's an electrical engineer.

I'm not sure which tack you're taking on the topic of what an EE knows
about typical home wiring, but, I'll just reiterate that *this* is the
kind of stuff we learn in Electrical Engineering!

Pic 1: the books https://i.imgur.com/ucDK1ea.jpg
Pic 2: the circuits https://i.imgur.com/q9bz2yZ.jpg
Pic 3: the formulas https://i.imgur.com/v9GHcnT.jpg

I'm an electrical engineer myself. I also knew how to debug that
breaker by just moving a wire from an adjacent breaker when I was
10 years old. I was building all kinds of hobby projects that
were more complicated than that. Electric eyes for example,
using photocells and transistors.

Thanks for proving our point.

You knew how to debug a breaker way before you had your EE. You
learned it through some other means or from other source. It
had nothing to do with your degree.


Really, what
is education coming to in America when you can get a degree in
electrical engineering and not be able to debug a simple house
circuit.

I'm guessing we're close to same age - within reason - which means
we got our EE degrees in the same "America" time wise - within reason.
What course taught you how to open a breaker panel and swap wires?

Sorry, just the truth, painful as it may be.

I don't feel hurt at all.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:21:45 -0800, bob_villain wrote:

I've had bulbs cause a dead-short...the wires that hold the
filament get crossed.

Certainly a light bulb dead short *can* happen.
Did it happen?
I dunno.

I will let you know, but most importantly, to those who did *not*
say "call an electrician you stupid twerp", I do very much appreciate
your help.

To those who said I should have known all about home wiring, because
I have a degree in EE, I ask which of these books do you think
I would have found this information in?

Would I have learned the information in this class on Assembly Language?
https://i.imgur.com/OQjYooU.jpg

Or, maybe this class on the Design of Microcomputer Based Medical Instruments?
https://i.imgur.com/F56aGrJ.jpg

Maybe this class on VLSI chip design?
https://i.imgur.com/lWXyMly.jpg

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 16:12:22 -0500, TomR wrote:

I went there and, like you, I wasn't able to reset the breaker. I could
switch it to "off", but on reset, it would just trip again. And, like you,
I noticed a slight spark on one of my reset attempts. When I turned the
main breaker off, I could reset the problem breaker, and when I turned the
main power back on the problem breaker stayed on and everything worked.
But, I wasn't convinced that the problem was resolved even though the
breaker did reset and didn't trip.

Wow. Just wow.

It's guys like you and a few of the rest who put to shame those guys
who told me 'go get an electrician, you idiot!'.

This is *fantastic* real-world advice!

Thank you very much. I will report back if I find something (gotta run
right now though)...

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:21:58 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

I'm an electrical engineer myself. I also knew how to debug that
breaker by just moving a wire from an adjacent breaker when I was
10 years old. I was building all kinds of hobby projects that
were more complicated than that. Electric eyes for example,
using photocells and transistors. Really, what
is education coming to in America when you can get a degree in
electrical engineering and not be able to debug a simple house
circuit. Sorry, just the truth, painful as it may be.

I can design and simulate and lay out and physically verify and
fabricate a Chebyshev filter, but what does *that* have to do
with asking about pragmatic advice on debugging a circuit breaker
panel?

https://i.imgur.com/lWXyMly.jpg

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 4:25:08 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:00:29 -0800, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I have a BSEE. I had it before I owned a house. I couldn't spell Romex until I
bought a house, realized that I needed more circuits and started learning
about home wiring, on my own and with help from this ng, 30+ years ago.

Exactly my point!

Here is my Spice circuit simulation book next to the home breaker panel:
https://i.imgur.com/60Qidcn.jpg

Does anyone think this transient analysis will help me debug my wiring?
https://i.imgur.com/qFgZCHe.jpg


Did anyone ever suggest that you needed either of those to debug
your very basic home circuit? Ohm's law, an understanding of basic
electrical principles is all you need. I was doing that when I was 10.




Just because one of the E's stands for "Electrical" it doesn't mean that
home wiring, car wiring, boat wiring, etc. is even mentioned, never mind
taught. I can't recall one course that would have led to me consider
pulling the cover off of the breaker panel, loosening that little screw
and pulling out the black wire to test a breaker.

Exactly my point.


That apperently is the sad state of education today in America.
You learned how to run spice simulations, but now how to solve
simple, real world problems using the most basic principles of
electricity. They didn't teach you Ohms's law? How a simple
circuit works? And applying science to everyday problems is what
engineering is all about. Rest of strawman analogies noted and rejected.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:40:25 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

Did anyone ever suggest that you needed either of those to debug
your very basic home circuit? Ohm's law, an understanding of basic
electrical principles is all you need. I was doing that when I was 10.

Exactly.
You learned it wholly *outside* of the college EE environment.

Clearly I know ohms law.
Clearly I had a short.

Just as clearly, that short existed even with the light switch to the
five-bulb light turned off (I had forgotten to mention that).

So, clearly I had a short *somewhere*.
(Or, as people told me, maybe the breaker went bad.)

Even so, Ohms law wasn't my problem.
I've done far more complex math (trust me on that).

The problem was merely one of pragmatics.
And experience.
And knowledge of home wiring.
And tricks of the trade.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:15:48 +0000, E. Robinson wrote:

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

Actually, it can't possibly have been the bulb because, unless the light
switch is defective, I had turned *off* all the light switches.

So, the dead short was most likely somewhere else.