On 2016-01-21 4:47 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:15:48 +0000, E. Robinson wrote:

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

Actually, it can't possibly have been the bulb because, unless the light
switch is defective, I had turned *off* all the light switches.

So, the dead short was most likely somewhere else.

I would suggest the problem still exists, if you didn't find a fault, it
will happen again, or your house will burn down.

--
Froz...

Quando omni flunkus, moritati

On 1/21/2016 4:12 PM, TomR wrote:
I just wanted to mention that the symptoms that you originally described are
no longer present, apparently as a result of you following the above steps.
But, as you indicated, that doesn't explain why the problem occurred in the
first place.

So, at this point, we don't really know what caused the original problem and
symptoms.

I had similar situation and set of symptoms once with the electrical panel
in a tenant occupied single family home. The complaint was that one of the
breakers would trip every once in a while and that the tenant would reset
the breaker and everything would be okay. Then, the current problem became
that she sometimes had problems getting the breaker to reset and finally she
was unable to get the breaker to reset at all. She also mentioned smelling
a faint odor of something burning near the panel (which I know was not one
of your symptoms).

I went there and, like you, I wasn't able to reset the breaker. I could
switch it to "off", but on reset, it would just trip again. And, like you,
I noticed a slight spark on one of my reset attempts. When I turned the
main breaker off, I could reset the problem breaker, and when I turned the
main power back on the problem breaker stayed on and everything worked.
But, I wasn't convinced that the problem was resolved even though the
breaker did reset and didn't trip.

So, I turned off the main power and I removed the breaker. That's when I
saw that the center terminal to which the breaker attaches was melted.

Apparently, there was some type of loose contact between the breaker and the
center terminal and it must have been causing some type of arcing that
heated up the terminal to the point that it melted.

What I did then was take that breaker completely out. I bought a new
breaker for that circuit but I moved the new breaker to a different position
in the panel box where it would connect to a perfectly good center terminal.
I put a snap-in cover plate in the space on the panel cover where the
original breaker had been located (I forget what they are called) to cover
the hole that was created by removing the original breaker.

That completely solved the problem and there has been no problem since then.

So, even though the symptoms that you experienced are now gone, you may want
to try unsnapping that breaker and one or two nearby and look to see what
the terminals underneath look like. Of course, turn the power off first and
be sure to use all of the necessary precautions regarding any part of the
panel that may still be live even with the main circuit breaker off.

Maybe your problem is now fixed, or maybe you will see evidence of arcing
and burning where the breaker contacts the center terminal.

It is worth a look just in case.


Good catch. and thanks for reminding us that some times the
contact between the breaker and the bar corrodes.

I saw some thing similar in a house, where the double 100
breaker brings the power in was corroded.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/21/2016 4:57 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-01-21 4:47 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
Actually, it can't possibly have been the bulb because, unless the light
switch is defective, I had turned *off* all the light switches.

So, the dead short was most likely somewhere else.

I would suggest the problem still exists, if you didn't find a fault, it
will happen again, or your house will burn down.


If it trips breakers for more than four hours,
consult your electrician immediately.

You may have ED, Electrical Dysfunction.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"TomR" wrote in message
...
In ,
What I did then was take that breaker completely out. I bought a new
breaker for that circuit but I moved the new breaker to a different
position in the panel box where it would connect to a perfectly good
center terminal. I put a snap-in cover plate in the space on the panel
cover where the original breaker had been located (I forget what they are
called) to cover the hole that was created by removing the original
breaker.

That completely solved the problem and there has been no problem since
then.

So, even though the symptoms that you experienced are now gone, you may
want to try unsnapping that breaker and one or two nearby and look to see
what the terminals underneath look like. Of course, turn the power off
first and be sure to use all of the necessary precautions regarding any
part of the panel that may still be live even with the main circuit
breaker off.

Maybe your problem is now fixed, or maybe you will see evidence of arcing
and burning where the breaker contacts the center terminal.

It is worth a look just in case.


Things like that are not in most books. It is a good idea to tighten all
the screws while the panel is off also. I remember stories of the aluminum
house wiring that would hapen to and could cause a fire.

On 1/21/2016 3:15 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.



A year or two, at my church we had a light circuit
that instantly tripped the breaker. I worked on it
for awhile. The paid guys stopped by. They took
out the two incandescant filament bulbs, and put in
curly cue CFL. Problem solved. Wish I'd tried that.
Rainy weather, I figured it was wet wires in the
attic. I'd be mistaken.

Yes, a blown bulb can trip breakers.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 1/21/2016 4:35 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
I will let you know, but most importantly, to those who did *not*
say "call an electrician you stupid twerp", I do very much appreciate
your help.


In the case of the lights at church, this
here stupid twerp (named below) was bested
by a paid guy. Sigh.


-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"E. Robinson" wrote in :

To those who said I should have known all about home wiring, because
I have a degree in EE, I ask which of these books do you think
I would have found this information in?

Would I have learned the information in this class on Assembly Language?
https://i.imgur.com/OQjYooU.jpg

Or, maybe this class on the Design of Microcomputer Based Medical Instruments?
https://i.imgur.com/F56aGrJ.jpg

Maybe this class on VLSI chip design?
https://i.imgur.com/lWXyMly.jpg

From the textbooks you list, it would appear that your EE degree is in Electronics
Engineering, which would lead me to immediately conclude that you know absolutely
nothing about residential electrical wiring -- whereas I would have the opposite conclusion
about an Electrical Engineer.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 3:47:13 PM UTC-6, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:15:48 +0000, E. Robinson wrote:

Actually, it can't possibly have been the bulb because, unless the light
switch is defective, I had turned *off* all the light switches.

So, the dead short was most likely somewhere else.

Are you sure you don't have a pot rack? ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

"bob_villain" wrote in message
...
Actually, it can't possibly have been the bulb because, unless the light
switch is defective, I had turned *off* all the light switches.

So, the dead short was most likely somewhere else.

Are you sure you don't have a pot rack? ( ?~ ?? ?°)

I am sure most would not learn about the pot rack and screw in an
engineering school. Just one of the things learned by doing or hearing from
another.

"E. Robinson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:38:43 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

It's a trick for an EE to figure out that you could quickly debug
it by switching the wire from an adjacent breaker? I can understand
an EE not having knowledge of NEC requirements, etc, but come on, this
is very basic stuff.

This is the kind of stuff we learn in EE ...

Pic 1: the books https://i.imgur.com/ucDK1ea.jpg
Pic 2: the circuits https://i.imgur.com/q9bz2yZ.jpg
Pic 3: the formulas https://i.imgur.com/v9GHcnT.jpg

Some things are not really in the books.
At work two electricians replaced the brushes in a 100 hp motor. There are 4
sets of 3 brushes each. The motor was driven by an electronic speed
control. When the motor was started it ran backwards from the direction it
was running. It just so hapened that the plant Professional Engineer was
called about it and there was 2 other men from outside venders erer that
day. They had been looking at it for about 30 minuits and talking it over.

I walked up and asked what was going on. Was told just the brushes were
replaced. Thinking it over, the brushes are on a ring that goes around the
armature. It is often loosened and rotated to get to the back brushes. I
asked if that ring had been turned and was told it had but they put it back.
However looking at it , it was put back in the wrong place. Putting it back
to the correct place solved the problem.

Doubt that is in very many engineering books.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:55:06 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

From the textbooks you list, it would appear that your EE degree is in Electronics
Engineering, which would lead me to immediately conclude that you know absolutely
nothing about residential electrical wiring -- whereas I would have the opposite conclusion
about an Electrical Engineer.

I am an Electrical Engineer, however, *most* of my graduate work is
in microprocessor and chip design.

I spent the last 15 years designing chips, but went into management
of chip designers for the next 15 years.

We didn't have "electronics" engineers way back then.
At least not at my school.

To paraphrase someone here, every EE knows Ohms law.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 16:57:56 -0500, FrozenNorth wrote:

I would suggest the problem still exists, if you didn't find a fault, it
will happen again, or your house will burn down.

The house won't burn down, unless the breaker is actually bad.
The breaker seems to have done its job.
My gut feeling is that there was a dead short.

The question is where.

However, it's cheap enough to replace the breaker, so, I'll
buy a new breaker and replace it, as a cautionary measure.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:17:17 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Are you sure you don't have a pot rack? ( ?~ ?? ?°)

I am sure most would not learn about the pot rack and screw in an
engineering school. Just one of the things learned by doing or hearing from
another.

I know what a potentiometer is, but not a pot rack.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:28:39 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, a blown bulb can trip breakers.

But the wall switch was off and the breaker was still tripping.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:00:40 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Good catch. and thanks for reminding us that some times the
contact between the breaker and the bar corrodes.

I saw some thing similar in a house, where the double 100
breaker brings the power in was corroded.

I'm gonna replace the 15 amp breaker, no matter what.
Not worth worrying about it *not* tripping when it needs to trip.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:28:15 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Things like that are not in most books. It is a good idea to tighten all
the screws while the panel is off also. I remember stories of the aluminum
house wiring that would hapen to and could cause a fire.

The wires are copper but the huge feeds are aluminum.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:17:40 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Some things are not really in the books.

Trust me, home electrical wiring is not covered in the standard
EE curriculum.

"E. Robinson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:17:17 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Are you sure you don't have a pot rack? ( ?~ ?? ?°)

I am sure most would not learn about the pot rack and screw in an
engineering school. Just one of the things learned by doing or hearing
from
another.

I know what a potentiometer is, but not a pot rack.


That is from someone elses post in this group.

Someone asked about why they would get shocked when they touched their stove
and a rack that holds the cooking pots that is on the wall. That rack was
fastened to the wall with somelag bolts and no electricity or ground to the
rack.

Seems that one of the screws holding it to the wall had gone into a wire
that was behind the wall. When touching that rack that was then connected
to a hot wire and the stove that was acting as a gound the current would
flow. Touching the stove or just the rack would not give a shock.

Something that many will not think about.

"E. Robinson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:28:15 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Things like that are not in most books. It is a good idea to tighten all
the screws while the panel is off also. I remember stories of the
aluminum
house wiring that would hapen to and could cause a fire.

The wires are copper but the huge feeds are aluminum.


Most homes are fed with large aluminum wire and that does not seem to be a
problem. The problems seem to be the smaller # 12 and # 14 wire to the
lights and recepticals.

Sometimes the range will be wired with aluminum wire. The reason is that
aluminum wire is less expensive than copper, or was at the time. To use
aluminum instead of copper you have to go up a couple of sizes larger as it
is less conductive.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 21:47:08 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:15:48 +0000, E. Robinson wrote:

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

Actually, it can't possibly have been the bulb because, unless the light
switch is defective, I had turned *off* all the light switches.

So, the dead short was most likely somewhere else.

At least you got this far without getting electrocuted.

Was anything plugged into outlets on that circuit?
Could be one of them.

Could be the breaker has a small piece of plastic or other thing stuck
inside.

NOW is the time to determine what outlets and lights are on that
circuit. If it blows again, unplug everything and shut off all those
lights. If it still blows, buy a new breaker for $5. *Shut off your
outside MAIN*, replace the breaker with new one.

If that fixes it, you know the breaker was failing. If it trips the new
one, you probably should call an electrician, or you may have a fire.

But if you keep the main power off, I suppose you could remove and
carefully look at each light fixture all wirenuts, all wires, check for
any bad or frayed wires, loose screws, etc. Same for all outlets on that
breaker.

Take your time and look at EVERYTHING CLOSELY.

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 5:38:28 PM UTC-6, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:17:17 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Are you sure you don't have a pot rack? ( ?~ ?? ?°)

I am sure most would not learn about the pot rack and screw in an
engineering school. Just one of the things learned by doing or hearing from
another.

I know what a potentiometer is, but not a pot rack.

I was referring to another thread https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ir/ZzfWlXSiE7w

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 14:26:20 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 01/21/2016 2:15 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
...

16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

Not at all unusual for a bulb catastrophic failure to pop a circuit on
the instantaneous failure if it fails as in 'pop!'.

But his tripped over and over again, not just when the bulb failed (if
it even tripped then).

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

I hadn't seen the thread but sounds to me like perhaps you didn't
actually reset it before trying to turn it back on...most (all?) require
a manual "push _fully_ off" to reset after a trip; if you don't they're
not reset.

He didn't say he pushed it to Off as part of resetting it, but he did
say he pushed it to Off several times and later to On, so
functionally, that's the same thing.

I'm guessing this time your movement did include enough in the "off"
direction to do the reset.

Easy enough to test...

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 5:57:56 PM UTC-5, Doug Miller wrote:
"E. Robinson" wrote in :

To those who said I should have known all about home wiring, because
I have a degree in EE, I ask which of these books do you think
I would have found this information in?

Would I have learned the information in this class on Assembly Language?
https://i.imgur.com/OQjYooU.jpg

Or, maybe this class on the Design of Microcomputer Based Medical Instruments?
https://i.imgur.com/F56aGrJ.jpg

Maybe this class on VLSI chip design?
https://i.imgur.com/lWXyMly.jpg

From the textbooks you list, it would appear that your EE degree is in Electronics
Engineering, which would lead me to immediately conclude that you know absolutely
nothing about residential electrical wiring -- whereas I would have the opposite conclusion
about an Electrical Engineer.

There seems to be a US vs global difference between
Electrical Engineering and Electronics Engineering.

For example, RIT (and MIT) offer an a Electrical Engineering
degree which appears to encompass both disciplines.

https://www.rit.edu/kgcoe/electrical...ogram-overview

However, this description of the 2 degrees discusses who gets
what type of degree through which program in India:

http://www.engineering.careers360.co...al-engineering

I have an EE of the Electrical version but most of my classes
dealt with semi-conductors, even 30+ years ago. None of the
courses I took covered residential wiring.

I looked at (quickly) at MIT's and RIT's current curriculum for
their Electrical Engineering degrees and I don't see anything
related to residential wiring.

There is no reason to conclude that anyone with an Electrical
Engineering degree learned about residential wiring via the
curriculum that led to that degree.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:11:32 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:23:52 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I can understand that. Just because one knows the theory about things does
not mean he will have trouble shooting abilities even on something simple.
I doubt the EE degree even mentions home wireing or simple breakers for the
house.

I'm sure every school is different, but you are correct.

I don't know about that. My brother-in-law majored in electrical
engineering and he had a minor in home wiring. (He's been in Asia on
vacation or I would have called him for advice on your problem.) At
MIT, no less.

Not once do they mention the wiring of the home.
So, if you didn't already know that it's 110VAC 60Hz, you're not gonna
learn that at school with an EE degree.

Neither do they really cover power transmission.

The Morristown Institute of Technology is one of the 10 best technical
institutes in northwestern New Jersey.

The sort of hint at it when they cover transformers and when they cover
the skin effect and AC impedance, but, not once in the entire college
education of a typical EE does he see a circuit breaker.

My sister called to say they just got back and I learned that he did
his thesis on circuit breakers.

Micky

I went to a 2 year technical college for electronics engineering and
did not get into the simple things. Lots of time on theory and none on how
to repair things that did not work.

Yup. I mean, they cover transformers, in all their configurations, and
phase shift, and they cover single phase, two phase, three phase power, etc.,
but not once do they show you a typical power transformer that is on your
telephone pole, although they do theoretically cover load balancing.

I went to work in a large plant and delt with things as large as 480 volt 3
phaase at 500 amps. Almost nothing in the plant ran on 120 volts except in
some offices, so did not get much about the simple things you would find
around the house.

That's another thing they NEVER cover in electrical engineering!
They never tell you that it's roughly 400 volts on the distribution lines
and tens of thousands of volts on the transmission lines and they never
cover how the ground differs from the neutral in a typical home system.

In fact, as I said, not once in 4 years did they cover anything related
to a typical home system. Of course, as someone noted, Ohms law still
holds sway, but that simply tells me I have a short.

But FINDING the short was where I needed your help.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:50:19 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Seems that one of the screws holding it to the wall had gone into a wire
that was behind the wall. When touching that rack that was then connected
to a hot wire and the stove that was acting as a gound the current would
flow. Touching the stove or just the rack would not give a shock.

Yikes. A screw holding a metal rack touching a hot wire.
Not good.

Most of the time I hear of people getting shocked by stoves is when
some homeowner wires the stove backward (if its 110VAC).

Apparently they seem to think that a neutral is the "same" as the hot wire,
since the stove still works either way.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:24:22 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

NOW is the time to determine what outlets and lights are on that
circuit. If it blows again, unplug everything and shut off all those
lights. If it still blows, buy a new breaker for $5. *Shut off your
outside MAIN*, replace the breaker with new one.

I'm gonna replace the breaker as a matter of course.
However, I do need to map the circuit to see what is affected by it.

I will keep an eye out, especially at the next rainstorm.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:18:33 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:14:52 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ah, so you had a loose neutral, then? Or was it
some other problem?

Here's the somewhat hard to fathom explanation I gave in another post.


On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:40:15 -0800, TimR wrote:

You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.


Ingenious. Simple and workable.

If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too. Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

That is the kind of a.h.r advice I was looking for!

It worked perfectly!

In fact, your approach worked so perfectly, that it, um, uh, er.... it SOLVED the problem!

Well, not exactly (it couldn't have solved the problem), but this is what happened!

1. The "bad" breaker was in the off position.
2. Unfortunately, I didn't think to test it today (last tested 2 days ago).
3. I went outside and turned the mains off.
4. I went to the breaker panel, and turned the "bad" breaker on.
5. It stayed in the on position!
6. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
7. It stayed in the on position!
8. I left it in the on position.
9. I went outside, and flipped the mains back on.
10. I had expected the "bad" circuit to trip.
11. Huh? It was still in the on position.
12. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
13. It worked perfectly fine.
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

Not more than once, and I don't think it could do it even once.

I've had 5 or 10 things over the years for which I could find no
explanation. It was almost like God was doing these things, but they
were too trivial to take up his time. So maybe he was teaching me a
lesson, but since I didn't learn a lesson, that doesn't seem like it
either.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:14:09 -0800, DerbyDad03 wrote:

There is no reason to conclude that anyone with an Electrical
Engineering degree learned about residential wiring via the
curriculum that led to that degree.

I'd say that is a fair assessment.

We learn a lot of *other* stuff.

But not residential wiring.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:19:58 -0500, Micky wrote:

I've had 5 or 10 things over the years for which I could find no
explanation. It was almost like God was doing these things, but they
were too trivial to take up his time. So maybe he was teaching me a
lesson, but since I didn't learn a lesson, that doesn't seem like it
either.

I can blame the rain, for now...

We'll see.

It's cloudy today.

Rain will be back though.

On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 01:17:05 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:24:22 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

NOW is the time to determine what outlets and lights are on that
circuit. If it blows again, unplug everything and shut off all those
lights. If it still blows, buy a new breaker for $5. *Shut off your
outside MAIN*, replace the breaker with new one.

I'm gonna replace the breaker as a matter of course.
However, I do need to map the circuit to see what is affected by it.

I would replace it too.

Easiest way to trace outlets is with a plug in radio. Plug it in, (LOUD)
shut off breaker. If it stops playing, that outlet is on that breaker.
Saves a lot of running around. Lights are a lot easier. Turn all of them
on. Shut off that braker and see which ones go off.

You could have an outdoor outlet on that breaker too and that is why
rain effected it. Check them too. Outdoor ones should be a seperate
breaker and have a GFI outlet, but that dont mean it was wired properly.

Dont forget range hood, exhaust fans, heat tapes, garbage disposal
furnace, basement/attic outlets and lights, sump pump, etc.

I like to trace my whole house and write it, and hang it near the box.
Those diagrams on the breaker box door are never big enough.

I will keep an eye out, especially at the next rainstorm.

You could have water leaking into your breaker box if the entrance head
is loose or cracked (if it's overhead wires). I have seen that happen!

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:03:07 -0500, Micky
wrote:

But his tripped over and over again, not just when the bulb failed (if
it even tripped then).

If it keeps tripping, it could be in drugs ! LOL

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:19:58 -0500, Micky
wrote:


I've had 5 or 10 things over the years for which I could find no
explanation. It was almost like God was doing these things, but they
were too trivial to take up his time. So maybe he was teaching me a
lesson, but since I didn't learn a lesson, that doesn't seem like it
either.

That depends on which God it is. Some have a sense of humor, the others
are nasty and like to inflict pain !

Since you did not learn a lesson, you get an "F".

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:18:33 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:14:52 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ah, so you had a loose neutral, then? Or was it
some other problem?

Here's the somewhat hard to fathom explanation I gave in another post.


On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:40:15 -0800, TimR wrote:

You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.


Ingenious. Simple and workable.

If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too. Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

That is the kind of a.h.r advice I was looking for!

It worked perfectly!

In fact, your approach worked so perfectly, that it, um, uh, er.... it SOLVED the problem!

Well, not exactly (it couldn't have solved the problem), but this is what happened!

1. The "bad" breaker was in the off position.
2. Unfortunately, I didn't think to test it today (last tested 2 days ago).
3. I went outside and turned the mains off.
4. I went to the breaker panel, and turned the "bad" breaker on.
5. It stayed in the on position!
6. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
7. It stayed in the on position!
8. I left it in the on position.
9. I went outside, and flipped the mains back on.
10. I had expected the "bad" circuit to trip.
11. Huh? It was still in the on position.
12. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
13. It worked perfectly fine.
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

I removed the one bad bulb, but, other than that, nothing (that I know of)
has changed between now and two days ago (other than the rain stopped, which
has been constant here in California the past few weeks).

I don't understand, but, somehow, that ingenious trick showed not only
that the circuit breaker was good, but, that the circuit, somehow,
is (at least now) also good.

Makes no sense, I agree.
But that's the data.
I will let you know if it trips again.

I'd be replacing that breaker - for sure. Real cheap insurance.
Turning off the power didn't "fix" it, it just allowed you to manually
operate the breaker several times, which shifted something in the
breaker, temporarily allowing it to stay on. Might not trip now with a
fault.

DON"T TAKE A CHANCE.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 13:31:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 4:22:12 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 4:11:59 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:36:10 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

I guess you missed the part where he said he's an electrical engineer.

I'm not sure which tack you're taking on the topic of what an EE knows
about typical home wiring, but, I'll just reiterate that *this* is the
kind of stuff we learn in Electrical Engineering!

Pic 1: the books https://i.imgur.com/ucDK1ea.jpg
Pic 2: the circuits https://i.imgur.com/q9bz2yZ.jpg
Pic 3: the formulas https://i.imgur.com/v9GHcnT.jpg

I'm an electrical engineer myself. I also knew how to debug that
breaker by just moving a wire from an adjacent breaker when I was
10 years old. I was building all kinds of hobby projects that
were more complicated than that. Electric eyes for example,
using photocells and transistors.

Thanks for proving our point.

You knew how to debug a breaker way before you had your EE. You
learned it through some other means or from other source. It
had nothing to do with your degree.


Really, what
is education coming to in America when you can get a degree in
electrical engineering and not be able to debug a simple house
circuit.

I'm guessing we're close to same age - within reason - which means
we got our EE degrees in the same "America" time wise - within reason.
What course taught you how to open a breaker panel and swap wires?


I got all my degrees from "the school of hard knocks" Different
degrees of knowlege in different subjects

If you are going to learn one trade well that will teach you the
basics of most of the others, learn auto mechanics.
Hydraulics, electrical/electronics, machinist, plumbing - you get the
basics of all of them - and you learn how to take out screws and
remove covers too.
Sorry, just the truth, painful as it may be.

I don't feel hurt at all.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 23:39:31 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:00:40 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Good catch. and thanks for reminding us that some times the
contact between the breaker and the bar corrodes.

I saw some thing similar in a house, where the double 100
breaker brings the power in was corroded.

I'm gonna replace the 15 amp breaker, no matter what.
Not worth worrying about it *not* tripping when it needs to trip.
Excellent call!! You have a few extra "slots" available if the buss
is burned.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 23:40:02 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:28:15 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Things like that are not in most books. It is a good idea to tighten all
the screws while the panel is off also. I remember stories of the aluminum
house wiring that would hapen to and could cause a fire.

The wires are copper but the huge feeds are aluminum.
Can't remember if you said before, but what brand is the panel?

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:14:47 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:11:32 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:23:52 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

I can understand that. Just because one knows the theory about things does
not mean he will have trouble shooting abilities even on something simple.
I doubt the EE degree even mentions home wireing or simple breakers for the
house.

I'm sure every school is different, but you are correct.

I don't know about that. My brother-in-law majored in electrical
engineering and he had a minor in home wiring. (He's been in Asia on
vacation or I would have called him for advice on your problem.) At
MIT, no less.

Not once do they mention the wiring of the home.
So, if you didn't already know that it's 110VAC 60Hz, you're not gonna
learn that at school with an EE degree.

Neither do they really cover power transmission.

The Morristown Institute of Technology is one of the 10 best technical
institutes in northwestern New Jersey.

The sort of hint at it when they cover transformers and when they cover
the skin effect and AC impedance, but, not once in the entire college
education of a typical EE does he see a circuit breaker.

My sister called to say they just got back and I learned that he did
his thesis on circuit breakers.

Micky

I went to a 2 year technical college for electronics engineering and
did not get into the simple things. Lots of time on theory and none on how
to repair things that did not work.

Yup. I mean, they cover transformers, in all their configurations, and
phase shift, and they cover single phase, two phase, three phase power, etc.,
but not once do they show you a typical power transformer that is on your
telephone pole, although they do theoretically cover load balancing.

I went to work in a large plant and delt with things as large as 480 volt 3
phaase at 500 amps. Almost nothing in the plant ran on 120 volts except in
some offices, so did not get much about the simple things you would find
around the house.

That's another thing they NEVER cover in electrical engineering!
They never tell you that it's roughly 400 volts on the distribution lines
and tens of thousands of volts on the transmission lines and they never
cover how the ground differs from the neutral in a typical home system.

In fact, as I said, not once in 4 years did they cover anything related
to a typical home system. Of course, as someone noted, Ohms law still
holds sway, but that simply tells me I have a short.

But FINDING the short was where I needed your help.
There are so many different disciplines in electrical engineering.
You can major in power transmission, power generation, microwave
transmission, communications, and several hundred other "specialties.
The beauty of specialization is you learn more and more about less and
less untill eventually you know absolutely all there is to know about
nothing

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:19:58 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:18:33 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:14:52 -0500, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Ah, so you had a loose neutral, then? Or was it
some other problem?

Here's the somewhat hard to fathom explanation I gave in another post.


On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 05:40:15 -0800, TimR wrote:

You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.


Ingenious. Simple and workable.

If the breaker is bad, there can still be something else wrong too. Sometimes breakers wear out, sometimes they go bad for a reason.

That is the kind of a.h.r advice I was looking for!

It worked perfectly!

In fact, your approach worked so perfectly, that it, um, uh, er.... it SOLVED the problem!

Well, not exactly (it couldn't have solved the problem), but this is what happened!

1. The "bad" breaker was in the off position.
2. Unfortunately, I didn't think to test it today (last tested 2 days ago).
3. I went outside and turned the mains off.
4. I went to the breaker panel, and turned the "bad" breaker on.
5. It stayed in the on position!
6. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
7. It stayed in the on position!
8. I left it in the on position.
9. I went outside, and flipped the mains back on.
10. I had expected the "bad" circuit to trip.
11. Huh? It was still in the on position.
12. I flipped it back and forth a few times.
13. It worked perfectly fine.
14. I went upstairs, and turned each affected light on (one by one).
15. They *all* worked (one multi-bulb light had 1 of 5 bulbs burnt out).
16. Maybe that one bulb caused the circuit to blow? Naaah.

Not more than once, and I don't think it could do it even once.

Perhaps not in the 120 volt AC world, but I've seen 12 volt automotive
bulbs blow 10 or 15 fuses before the mechanic figured it out - and
changed the bulb.
I've had the experience of being the second mechanic called in to
find the problem when the first mechanic gave up

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 at 9:01:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 01:17:05 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:24:22 -0600, Paintedcow wrote:

NOW is the time to determine what outlets and lights are on that
circuit. If it blows again, unplug everything and shut off all those
lights. If it still blows, buy a new breaker for $5. *Shut off your
outside MAIN*, replace the breaker with new one.

I'm gonna replace the breaker as a matter of course.
However, I do need to map the circuit to see what is affected by it.

I would replace it too.

Easiest way to trace outlets is with a plug in radio. Plug it in, (LOUD)
shut off breaker. If it stops playing, that outlet is on that breaker.
Saves a lot of running around. Lights are a lot easier. Turn all of them
on. Shut off that braker and see which ones go off.

You could have an outdoor outlet on that breaker too and that is why
rain effected it. Check them too. Outdoor ones should be a seperate
breaker and have a GFI outlet, but that dont mean it was wired properly.

Dont forget range hood, exhaust fans, heat tapes, garbage disposal
furnace, basement/attic outlets and lights, sump pump, etc.

I like to trace my whole house and write it, and hang it near the box.
Those diagrams on the breaker box door are never big enough.

I will keep an eye out, especially at the next rainstorm.

You could have water leaking into your breaker box if the entrance head
is loose or cracked (if it's overhead wires). I have seen that happen!

I have *had* that happen. When it happens, the water will run inside the outer jacket
of the service cable, even uphill, and enter the box.

When I had my problem, it was after an ice storm that pulled the cable off of the house.
Before I had a chance to fix it at the top of the house, I was getting water in the box
during thaws. There was a dip in the cable where it ran horizontal before coming into
the house. That dip was the lowest part of the cable, so the water was running uphill
(slightly) before it came into the house. Think of a trap, but much, much shallower. Just
a dip. I cut a tiny slit in the outer jacket at the bottom of the dip and water dripped out
for a few minutes. I never got any more water in the box after that. In the spring I fixed
the cable at the top of the house then siliconed the slit.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:28:15 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Things like that are not in most books. It is a good idea to tighten
all
the screws while the panel is off also. I remember stories of the
aluminum
house wiring that would hapen to and could cause a fire.

The wires are copper but the huge feeds are aluminum.
Can't remember if you said before, but what brand is the panel?

I don't recall what the brand was.