How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?

On 01/20/2016 02:04 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?


I'd start by disconnecting the load at the breaker and then see if the breaker still trips.

If the breaker is OK, then I'd start removing and disconnecting outlets and switches on the affected circuit until I found the problem.

You didn't recently nail/screw/install something on a wall, did you?

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 04:24:55 -0500, Dick Phallic wrote:

I'd start by disconnecting the load at the breaker and then see if the breaker still trips.

If the breaker is OK, then I'd start removing and disconnecting outlets and switches on the affected circuit until I found the problem.

You didn't recently nail/screw/install something on a wall, did you?

To "disconnect the load at the breaker", do you mean that I should just
physically *remove* the breaker, and see if it trips on its own, in
my hands?

To "disconnect outlets and switches", do you mean to pull them out of the
wall, one by one, disconnecting the hot wire only? (Would that be enough?)

No, I didn't recently install anything (that I know of).

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:45:55 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

To "disconnect the load at the breaker", do you mean that I should just
physically *remove* the breaker, and see if it trips on its own, in
my hands?

UMM... AHHH, UMMMM, AHHHHH ..... WOW ............ AHHHHH OK....
I think they meant you should remove the LOAD from your telephone book,
(such as a stack of other books on top of it), then look up electricians
and call one.
The only only thing that might trip in your hands, is your index finger,
if it trips while your fingers do the walking thru the yellow pages.

Yep, that's what they meant!

To "disconnect outlets and switches", do you mean to pull them out of the
wall, one by one, disconnecting the hot wire only? (Would that be enough?)

They just meant you should disconnect (unplug) everything until the
electrician arrives.

No, I didn't recently install anything (that I know of).

That's good!

On 1/20/2016 4:45 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 04:24:55 -0500, Dick Phallic wrote:

I'd start by disconnecting the load at the breaker and then see if the breaker still trips.

If the breaker is OK, then I'd start removing and disconnecting outlets and switches on the affected circuit until I found the problem.

You didn't recently nail/screw/install something on a wall, did you?

To "disconnect the load at the breaker", do you mean that I should just
physically *remove* the breaker, and see if it trips on its own, in
my hands?

To "disconnect outlets and switches", do you mean to pull them out of the
wall, one by one, disconnecting the hot wire only? (Would that be enough?)

No, I didn't recently install anything (that I know of).


In the situation you describe, I suspect that the easiest way to debug
is to replace the breaker. I'm told that sometimes they just crap out
on their own after years of use. Your time is worth something and the
breaker isn't that expensive. Buy a replacement and swap it out and see
what happens.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 1:04:57 AM UTC-6, E. Robinson wrote:
How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?

Does it actually *reset* and then trip? When they go bad they don't reset or *catch*...showing you its needs replacing. Have any of the outlets been worked-on to be suspect?

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 4:24:51 AM UTC-5, Dick Phallic wrote:
On 01/20/2016 02:04 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?


I'd start by disconnecting the load at the breaker and then see if the breaker still trips.


Or switch wires at the breaker between that breaker and an adjacent
one as a test.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:35:36 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 1/20/2016 4:45 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 04:24:55 -0500, Dick Phallic wrote:

I'd start by disconnecting the load at the breaker and then see if the breaker still trips.

If the breaker is OK, then I'd start removing and disconnecting outlets and switches on the affected circuit until I found the problem.

You didn't recently nail/screw/install something on a wall, did you?

To "disconnect the load at the breaker", do you mean that I should just
physically *remove* the breaker, and see if it trips on its own, in
my hands?

To "disconnect outlets and switches", do you mean to pull them out of the
wall, one by one, disconnecting the hot wire only? (Would that be enough?)

No, I didn't recently install anything (that I know of).


In the situation you describe, I suspect that the easiest way to debug
is to replace the breaker. I'm told that sometimes they just crap out

I had a GFCI breaker fail when it was only about 5 years old. The
replacement is 31 years old and doing fine. Regular breakers are a
quite a bit cheaper than GFCI

on their own after years of use. Your time is worth something and the
breaker isn't that expensive. Buy a replacement and swap it out and see
what happens.

If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw
dropping into the box, and you don't want to be reflexively showing
your hand in the box when you see the screw about to fall. If it
does fall, just let it.

Grab the wire on that screw by its insulation and push, pull etc. it
off the screw.

Then lift the end of the breaker away from the center of the box up
and pull/rock the breaker out of the clip it's in at the center. It
should come out quickly.

Reverse to install. Except that it might be easier to hook the wire
on the screw BEFORE putting the breaker in at all. Maybe you can use
two hands for this part only.

You definitely DON"T want to remove the screw, if it even comes
out, because it will be hard to get it back in, but it probably comes
out enough that it's easy to hook the wire back on it.

Use the same size breaker, 15A, 20A, whatever was there. You can't
safely increase the size.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or the wires. There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed, carefully.

And remember, with the main breaker turned off, there is no power to the buss bars, BUT there still is lethal current available up top.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 10:28:30 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or the wires. There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed, carefully.


Removing that steel cover is what makes me the most nervous because
as you say, there is still the incoming live feeds at the top. Watching
that Holmes show from Canada, I noticed that their panels had a separate
cover for that area, so that if you turned off the main and remove the
other cover for the breakers, no chance of hitting anything live. I
wonder, is that just a Canadian thing or do some or all new panels here
have that too? Required by Canadian code thing?



And remember, with the main breaker turned off, there is no power to the buss bars, BUT there still is lethal current available up top.

"E. Robinson" wrote in message
...
How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?


Take the wire off the breaker.
See if it will reset. If not, get a new breaker. If it resets, take a
meter and see how many ohms it shows to the neutral wire for that breaker.
Then see how many ohms to ground. If any ohms to ground you have a major
problem to look at, should not be any, or way up in the mega ohms atleast.
If any below several thousand (really should be up in the megaohms same as
to ground) on the neutral to the wire you took off the breaker then
something is still connected or there is a short in the wiring.

If very high ohms to neutral and ground, then swap that wire with another
breaker wire of the same rating and see if the other breaker trips. If not,
replace the breaker that is tripping.

This is assuming you do not have a ground fault breaker. If so it could be
water on an outside outlet that may not show up on the ohm meter.

If you had a meter that has a clamp on ampmeter, you could look at it and
see if it goes way up when you turn the breaker on, but many do not have a
meter like that.

If you don't have a multimeter, get one as they are less than $ 20 for one
that is good enough to use around the house.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:28:24 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
=========

his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or the wires.

That's what the flashlight is for. :-)

There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed, carefully.

And remember, with the main breaker turned off, there is no power to the buss bars, BUT there still is lethal current available up top.

Hmmm. I haven't seen it for years, but in mine I didn't think the
power was very available. I'd have to stick my fingers more than 2"
down between the main breaker and the top of the box and even then,
the cable that was showing was insulated. Maybe if I bent my finger I
could get to part where the insulation was off. Anyhow, OP, don't do
that.

On 1/20/2016 12:04 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.

"It /was/ tripped" suggests you discovered it tripped; as
opposed to it tripping while you were DOING SOMETHING.

3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.

Does "immediately" mean "within a few seconds"? Or, does
it mean "it never actually SETS"? You are REsetting it
before attempting to SET it (i.e., turn it fully OFF, then ON)?

4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

Are you positive that there are no other hidden loads?
Doorbell? AC powered smoke detector? Wall clock? etc.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

How many lights does it control? How many outlets? Are there
other outlets or lights in those rooms that are NOT on the same
circuit?

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?

I asume you want to know how *you* should debug this, not I?

What level of experience with electricity do you have?
And, your personal "Comfort Factor"? How deep is your wallet?
I.e., are you asking out of curiosity? Or, out of *need*
(ABSOLUTELY can't afford to hire someone)?

On 2016-01-20 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 10:28:30 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or the wires. There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed, carefully.


Removing that steel cover is what makes me the most nervous because
as you say, there is still the incoming live feeds at the top. Watching
that Holmes show from Canada, I noticed that their panels had a separate
cover for that area, so that if you turned off the main and remove the
other cover for the breakers, no chance of hitting anything live. I
wonder, is that just a Canadian thing or do some or all new panels here
have that too? Required by Canadian code thing?

I am in Canada, my breaker panel was new just after we bought this house
in 97, installed by an electrician, and passed inspection, it does not
have a separate cover for where the live wires enter it. So I can say
that was note code then, though it may be now.

--
Froz...

Quando omni flunkus, moritati

"E. Robinson" wrote in message
...
How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?


One other thing that should not need to be said. When you flip it back on,
did you turn it all the way to OFF before turning it back on ?

This needs to be done to reset most breakers.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:28:24 -0800, TimR wrote:

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've
left out an important step that will confuse him.

I've removed panels, but rarely. Big aluminum wires.
Really big. Bare wire.

Thicker than a garden hose (110Amp service).
Makes your breathing go up a notch just looking at them.

Even so, I've replaced a breaker (220VAC house panel for a
built-in AC which had it's own separate breaker at the AC unit)
- but only once.

So, advice is handy.
I will read it all.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 04:58:38 -0800, trader_4 wrote:

Or switch wires at the breaker between that breaker and an adjacent
one as a test.

Nice idea!
Thanks!

That saves me the 30-mile round trip to the hardware store.
(Am in the boonies.)

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 04:44:00 -0800, bob_villain wrote:

Does it actually *reset* and then trip?
When they go bad they don't reset or *catch*...showing you its needs replacing.
Have any of the outlets been worked-on to be suspect?

Haven't anyone in the house to see if the lights go on
momentarily, and I can snap a video if you like (will
need to find a place to upload it).

When I reset it, it doesn't stay.
It's as if a spring-like force is forcing it to the trip point.

There are three positions, but it won't stay in the off position,
and it will easily stay in the trip midway position, but it won't
stay in the on position.

I tried it a dozen or more times, and all goes right to the trip
position. Once I saw a spark, not big, but blue. Stopped at that
point.

Clearly a short somewhere.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:40:53 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Take the wire off the breaker.
See if it will reset.

Another great debugging idea.
Will try.

"E. Robinson" wrote in message
...

When I reset it, it doesn't stay.
It's as if a spring-like force is forcing it to the trip point.

There are three positions, but it won't stay in the off position,
and it will easily stay in the trip midway position, but it won't
stay in the on position.

I tried it a dozen or more times, and all goes right to the trip
position. Once I saw a spark, not big, but blue. Stopped at that
point.

Clearly a short somewhere.

If it will not stay in the OFF position that indicates something is wrong
with that breaker. A spark or flash does not mean much. If there is a bad
overload, repeated resetting of the breaker could cause it to go bad.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:36:12 -0700, Don Y wrote:

"It /was/ tripped" suggests you discovered it tripped; as
opposed to it tripping while you were DOING SOMETHING.

Yep. Woke up in the morning. Some kitchen and adjacent
living room lights wouldn't go on. All I can tell at the
moment are the lights (three ceiling lights, each with switches).

I presume there are some outlets on it too, but I haven't
checked yet.

Nothing is plugged into any of the nearby outlets.

Does "immediately" mean "within a few seconds"? Or, does
it mean "it never actually SETS"? You are REsetting it
before attempting to SET it (i.e., turn it fully OFF, then ON)?

It has three positions.
1. I found it in the trip (middle, sort of) position.
2. It easily stays in the off position.
3. It won't get into the on position - immediate swings to trip.

Are you positive that there are no other hidden loads?
Doorbell? AC powered smoke detector? Wall clock? etc.

Nope. It's a section of the kitchen next to the dining room.
I will dig up my outlet tester plug, and check a few of the
nearby outlets, but all the lights are ceiling lights and all
are currently switched (and the switches are all off).


How many lights does it control? How many outlets? Are there
other outlets or lights in those rooms that are NOT on the same
circuit?

At least four built-in lights. All switched.
Dunno how many (if any) outlets yet.
Will need to test around with a spare desk lamp.
Can't find my damn Fluke DMM. WHere did I put that thing?
(Haven't used it in a couple of years.)


I asume you want to know how *you* should debug this, not I?

Yes. I want ideas to debug.
I think I have enough to start.
1. Check the outlets for power.
2. Check the breaker in my hands that it switches.
3. Switch the breaker with another breaker.
4. Pull the affected switches and outlets & disconnect black lead
(Some are 3-way so I'll be expecting a red lead maybe.)

What level of experience with electricity do you have?

Same as anyone else I would think.

I've wire-nutted replacement outlets a half dozen times.
I've replaced a circuit breaker (220V for AC) only once.
I put in a 3-way ceiling light once (put a box in the attic
and dropped the wires down from between the wall to get to
the switch).

For tools
I have the basic yellow plug 3-light outlet tester.
I have a red neon-light probe dumb tester.
I can't find my Fluke DMM (but it's overkill usually).

And, your personal "Comfort Factor"? How deep is your wallet?
I.e., are you asking out of curiosity? Or, out of *need*
(ABSOLUTELY can't afford to hire someone)?

I can "afford" to waste my money on an electrician, but,
I don't really have the money to spare. Plus, I'm only
lacking in my debugging skills. Once I know what the problem
is, I don't think the "fix" will be difficult.

It's figuring out a strategy for finding the problem that
I am asking help with - and - I think you boys gave me a
pretty good start because I wasn't sure which way to go
first since the stuff is all "hidden" in the walls.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:42:43 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

One other thing that should not need to be said. When you flip it back on,
did you turn it all the way to OFF before turning it back on ?

Good suggestion, but, yes, I instinctively did that, but, I just
checked again, and it still flips immediately to the trip position.

Here's a picture of it off.
http://i65.tinypic.com/i5692c.jpg

Here's a picture of it in the trip position.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ec2kol.jpg

It's the breaker labeled "R" on the right (4 breakers down from the top).
15 amps. Seems to be "taped?" together with another one, which is
independent.

(Why the tape?)
Maybe it's a non-ganged dual unit?

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:07:29 +0000, E. Robinson wrote:

Thicker than a garden hose (110Amp service).

Meant 100 amp service.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 13:16:39 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

If it will not stay in the OFF position that indicates something is wrong
with that breaker. A spark or flash does not mean much. If there is a bad
overload, repeated resetting of the breaker could cause it to go bad.

It stays fine in the off position.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Here it is in the off position (top right, 4th down, 15 amp).
http://i65.tinypic.com/i5692c.jpg

Here it trips the instant I try to set it to on.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ec2kol.jpg

On 1/20/2016 11:23 AM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:36:12 -0700, Don Y wrote:

"It /was/ tripped" suggests you discovered it tripped; as
opposed to it tripping while you were DOING SOMETHING.

Yep. Woke up in the morning. Some kitchen and adjacent
living room lights wouldn't go on. All I can tell at the
moment are the lights (three ceiling lights, each with switches).

Hmmm... I think modern homes tend to keep the kitchen circuits
separate from other rooms. Kitchen is the big pig when it comes
to electricity usage.

I presume there are some outlets on it too, but I haven't
checked yet.

Nothing is plugged into any of the nearby outlets.

Does "immediately" mean "within a few seconds"? Or, does
it mean "it never actually SETS"? You are REsetting it
before attempting to SET it (i.e., turn it fully OFF, then ON)?

It has three positions.
1. I found it in the trip (middle, sort of) position.
2. It easily stays in the off position.
3. It won't get into the on position - immediate swings to trip.

I'm not trying to be a stickler but want to make sure of your use of
the word "immediately". Does the switch make *any* attempt to stay
in the ON position? A short/overload on the circuit will cause the
breaker to "trip" *AS* you are trying to turn it on! I.e., it will
never really get into the ON position before you feel it going
limp under your fingers.

If, instead, it tries to catch but trips a second or two later,
that's a slightly different story.

Are you positive that there are no other hidden loads?
Doorbell? AC powered smoke detector? Wall clock? etc.

Nope. It's a section of the kitchen next to the dining room.

And, it's NOT a GFCI circuit? And, it's a 120V line?

Is the breaker a single breaker? Or, a "dual" (though NOT 220V)?

I will dig up my outlet tester plug, and check a few of the
nearby outlets, but all the lights are ceiling lights and all
are currently switched (and the switches are all off).

How many lights does it control? How many outlets? Are there
other outlets or lights in those rooms that are NOT on the same
circuit?

At least four built-in lights. All switched.
Dunno how many (if any) outlets yet.

I'm not really interested in the actual numbers. Rather, just
wanting to make sure you've not overlooked an outlet or a switch
someplace that *should* be part of the same branch circuit.
E.g., we have two switches to control the overhead lights in
the kitchen -- both in the same Jbox (one does the lights
over the sink, the other does the rest). It would be highly
unlikely that encountering a similar setup would have those
switches on different circuits.

Will need to test around with a spare desk lamp.
Can't find my damn Fluke DMM. WHere did I put that thing?
(Haven't used it in a couple of years.)

I asume you want to know how *you* should debug this, not I?

Yes. I want ideas to debug.
I think I have enough to start.
1. Check the outlets for power.
2. Check the breaker in my hands that it switches.
3. Switch the breaker with another breaker.
4. Pull the affected switches and outlets & disconnect black lead
(Some are 3-way so I'll be expecting a red lead maybe.)

With the breaker TRIPPED (i.e., OFF), verify there is NO power at
any of the outlets or light fixtures. If there is power, then
either you've picked the wrong outlet *or* there may be a short
to the other hot leg that is now feeding through (because the
breaker on the first hot leg has tripped -- before the breaker
on that other hot leg).

[This is highly unlikely. But, stresses the fact that you are
now operating in an unusual situation so your assumptions always
need to be suspect --- especially if your safety is at risk.
If the circuit IS off, then it doesn't hurt to verify! : ]

*Smell* each outlet/fixture. And look for any signs of burning
or melting (metal can melt/"pit" when a short draws an arc to
that point).

I have a little fixture I made (trivial) that lets me hook my
DMM to a NEMA *plug*. So, I can just plug the thing into
outlets and check for voltage -- without having to poke probes
into the receptacle and *hope* I touch the mating blades inside.
For light fixtures, I use a screw-in adapter:
http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/500/228885907.jpg
into which I plug this other DMM adapter. Again, it makes it
easier than trying to poke around with bare probe tips and
possibly shorting out the socket and drawing an arc, etc.
(imagine being startled by same and slipping off a ladder!)

[if you want to be pedantic, you'd now remove the breaker]

In what follows, recall that neutral and ground are essentially
the same point, electrically. But, a short on neutral will
appear differently than a short on ground -- if you are just
looking at neutral and hot (instead of ground and hot).

Having identified all of the outlets and fixtures that are on
the circuit and knowing there is NO potential anywhere, you
can now flip the DMM to the ohms scale and SURVEY the resistance
between hot and neutral at each receptacle (no need to check both
receptacles in a duplex outlet) and light fixture. Move to the
most sensitive scale as you are looking for something in the
10 ohm or less range (for a short).

Keep in mind that wire has resistance. E.g., 100 ft of #12AWG
(for a 20A circuit) is ~0.16 ohms; #14AWG is ~0.25 ohms.
Any "short" (which may be a dead short -- 0 ohms -- or a
partial short (a few ohms) will appear to be LESS of a short
the farther away you measure (because you will be ADDING the
resistance of the wire between your measurement point and
the actual location of the short TO the resistance of the
actual short!)

A C B
--------------------------------------------+-----------------
X
--------------------------------------------+-----------------

Short (at C) would appear as "X" ohms. When measured at B,
it would appear as X plus twice the resistance of the wire
from B to C (cuz you have to travel DOWN one wire and then back
UP the other... twice the distance!)

OTOH, when measured at A, the same reasoning shows how the
measurement will be higher -- more wire involved!

[You need a reasonably good meter (fluke will be fine) AND
a solid connection to the conductors -- like the plug I
described]

By noting what the *exact* readings are at each point, you
have a better chance of sorting out where it MIGHT be.
(if the short is IN a Jbox, then you'll probably see damn
close to 0.000 ohms, there!)

Having verified that there is a short (low ohm connection
when none is expected), you now have to isolate it.
The above can help narrow it down to a range of "devices"
(outlets/switches/fixtures). But, you'll eventually need
to open up some Jboxes to see for sure.

Eyes can spot burnt areas and loose wires pretty easily!
Note that most devices have bare screw heads on each side.
So, if the device has shifted position, it can bump into
something that it shouldn't -- like the receptacle immediately
adjacent, or the metal Jbox, etc.

Some common sense will help you decide how the wire was
*probably* strung. I.e., if two Jboxes are close by, then the
wire probably goes from one to the other -- before heading
across the room to some other Jbox. But, there are no
guarantees :

Once you have isolated a section of wire (which might be
the entire circuit, if you are unlucky), you can save
yourself some trouble by approaching the problem of
breaking it into smaller segments logically.

I.e., instead of isolating the receptacle at outlet #1
and retesting the balance of the circuit; then moving on
to isolate outlet #2, and #3, and #4, etc. you can
go to the outlet in the "middle" (take a guess) of
the circuit and break the circuit at that point.
Now, you have half of the circuit going off to the "left"
and the other half going off to the "right".

If the left half shows a short -- but the right doesn't -- then
you now know the short is in the *left* half of the circuit.
Likewise, if the right shows a short but not the left, then
you know it's in the right half. So, you only have to check
HALF of the outlets.

Given the left/right half, you can now break *it* somewhere
near the middle to eliminate half of *those*. Etc. A bit
of thought will show that this will, on average, reduce
the number of "breaks" that you have to make to isolate the
short.

You may encounter two issues that will complicate things.

First, some folks use "back stab" devices. These are a
labor saver in that you simply strip the wire and then jam it
into a hole in the back of the device (switch/receptacle).
It magically makes connection.

But, it's a ratchet sort of action -- tugging on the wire
won't remove it! You need to operate a "catch" that
releases the "ratchet" (usually by slipping a cabinet tip
screwdriver into a little slot/hole).

[These things should be outlawed! : ]

The other has to do with how the circuit is "daisy chained"
on to the next device (Jbox) in the circuit. Receptacles tend to
have a pair of screw terminals on each side -- two for the hot
and two for the neutral. These are bonded together electrically
with a metal bridge (it is fairly obvious).

The natural inclination is to connect the "incoming" wires
to one set of terminals (one hot and one neutral) and the
"outgoing" wires to the other set. This effectively ties
the incoming to the outgoing AT the receptacle.

Instead, you might find the incoming tied directly to the
outgoing with a wire nut. Then, a short "pigtail" connects
the wire nut to the receptacle. In this way, the receptacle
is not required for the circuit to continue on to the next
device!

As such, removing the wire from the receptacle will just isolate
the receptacle from the circuit. It will *not* "break" the
circuit at that point!

What level of experience with electricity do you have?

Same as anyone else I would think.

I've wire-nutted replacement outlets a half dozen times.
I've replaced a circuit breaker (220V for AC) only once.
I put in a 3-way ceiling light once (put a box in the attic
and dropped the wires down from between the wall to get to
the switch).

OK. So, you're probably comfortable working *in* the panel.

For tools
I have the basic yellow plug 3-light outlet tester.
I have a red neon-light probe dumb tester.
I can't find my Fluke DMM (but it's overkill usually).

See my comments measuring wire resistance...

The problem with the "simple" testers is they don't show
you anything other than "working properly" or "working
WRONGLY (in a bigtime way)".

And, your personal "Comfort Factor"? How deep is your wallet?
I.e., are you asking out of curiosity? Or, out of *need*
(ABSOLUTELY can't afford to hire someone)?

I can "afford" to waste my money on an electrician, but,
I don't really have the money to spare. Plus, I'm only
lacking in my debugging skills. Once I know what the problem
is, I don't think the "fix" will be difficult.

Understood. I just get nervous suggesting folks go poking around in
a load/meter center or Jboxes. Note that you are operating in
an "abnormal" situation; so, what you can EXPECT is no longer
something that you can safely ASSUME.

It's figuring out a strategy for finding the problem that
I am asking help with - and - I think you boys gave me a
pretty good start because I wasn't sure which way to go
first since the stuff is all "hidden" in the walls.

Think about what *could* have gone wrong. E.g., if you
are frequently abusing a particular outlet, then it has
seen more mechanical wear and tear than an outlet that
is NEVER used, etc.

What's LIKELY is best to pursue, initially.

FrozenNorth wrote:
On 2016-01-20 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 10:28:30 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an
important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or
the wires. There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed,
carefully.


Removing that steel cover is what makes me the most nervous because
as you say, there is still the incoming live feeds at the top. Watching
that Holmes show from Canada, I noticed that their panels had a separate
cover for that area, so that if you turned off the main and remove the
other cover for the breakers, no chance of hitting anything live. I
wonder, is that just a Canadian thing or do some or all new panels here
have that too? Required by Canadian code thing?

I am in Canada, my breaker panel was new just after we bought this house
in 97, installed by an electrician, and passed inspection, it does not
have a separate cover for where the live wires enter it. So I can say
that was note code then, though it may be now.

What does label on the breaker say? Bedroom 1, kitchen, kitchen counter
top, exterior front outlet, garage, etc.? They have to be specific. If
not you disconnect the hot wire from the breaker and measure to check if
there is short downstream(load side) I assume you know all the basic
safety measures while working on the electricity. It can be as simple as
bad circuit breaker....

On 1/20/16 1:38 PM, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:42:43 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:


Here's a picture of it in the trip position.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ec2kol.jpg

It's the breaker labeled "R" on the right (4 breakers down from the top).
15 amps. Seems to be "taped?" together with another one, which is
independent.

(Why the tape?)
Maybe it's a non-ganged dual unit?

Looks like it is one of the "tandem" style, where you have 2
independent breakers in one "space" in the panel. Generally not used
until the panel runs out of spaces.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_8991-296-HOM... reaker+tandem

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:21:41 -0700, Don Y wrote:

Does the switch make *any* attempt to stay
in the ON position? A short/overload on the circuit will cause the
breaker to "trip" *AS* you are trying to turn it on! I.e., it will
never really get into the ON position before you feel it going
limp under your fingers.

If, instead, it tries to catch but trips a second or two later,
that's a slightly different story.

It makes no attempt to catch.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:21:41 -0700, Don Y wrote:

And, it's NOT a GFCI circuit? And, it's a 120V line?

Is the breaker a single breaker? Or, a "dual" (though NOT 220V)?

I have no idea what the circuit is yet, but it has at least three
built in switched lights on it.

It's a single breaker (not ganged), but it seems to be in a dual package.

Here it is in the off position (top right, 4th down, 15 amp).
http://i65.tinypic.com/i5692c.jpg

Here it trips the instant I try to set it to on.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ec2kol.jpg

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:04:53 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?

I'm not an electrician, so do not take my advice. I have a known good
breaker that was removed from my HVAC disconnect box.. Reading, I saw
you can test a breaker for continuity using a multi meter? Flipping
the breaker off and on at the test bench. (single or double breakers)

_How to Test a Circuit Breaker With a Multi meter _

http://www.ehow.com/how_4795794_test-circuit-breaker-multimeter.html

Other reads: https://tinyurl.com/z6p3z78

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 3:11:19 PM UTC-5, E. Robinson wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:21:41 -0700, Don Y wrote:

And, it's NOT a GFCI circuit? And, it's a 120V line?

Is the breaker a single breaker? Or, a "dual" (though NOT 220V)?

I have no idea what the circuit is yet, but it has at least three
built in switched lights on it.

It's a single breaker (not ganged), but it seems to be in a dual package.

Here it is in the off position (top right, 4th down, 15 amp).
http://i65.tinypic.com/i5692c.jpg

Here it trips the instant I try to set it to on.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ec2kol.jpg

If it makes no attempt to catch, it sounds like a mechanically bad breaker.

You can trythis to confirm it..... without even removing the panel.......

Turn off the main breaker.

Now try to turn on the bad breaker.

If it still does not catch even with the main off, the breaker is definilty bad.


If it does catch with the main off then turn the main back on.

If it immediatly trips, you may have a bad breaker or you may have a wiring fault.

Now you need to remove the panel to troubleshoot further.

When removing the panel, turn off the main breaker, wear rubber shoes or sneaks and stand on a carpet, and keep BOTH hands on the panel.

What you don't want to do is have one hand on the panel and one hand on the box.

This way, if you slip and the loose panel hits a live wire, you won't be shocked, but it may make a he** of a spark.

M

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:33:40 -0500, Micky
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:28:24 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
=========

his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or the wires.

That's what the flashlight is for. :-)

There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed, carefully.

And remember, with the main breaker turned off, there is no power to the buss bars, BUT there still is lethal current available up top.

Hmmm. I haven't seen it for years, but in mine I didn't think the
power was very available. I'd have to stick my fingers more than 2"
down between the main breaker and the top of the box and even then,
the cable that was showing was insulated. Maybe if I bent my finger I
could get to part where the insulation was off. Anyhow, OP, don't do
that.
I don't know about in the USA, but in Canada the main breaker has to
be protected by a sheild that does not come off when the main panel
cover is removed and NOTHING is alowed to be "live" in the main panel
area with the main disconnect (main breaker) disconnected (turned off)
With the main breaker off you would need to be VERY inventive to find
a way to electrocute yourself.

This is, of course, assuming it is a relatively current panel.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:40:12 -0500, FrozenNorth
wrote:

On 2016-01-20 10:34 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 10:28:30 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 8:12:36 AM UTC-5, Micky wrote:
If he's going to do this he should turn off all the power to the
breaker box by flipping the main breaker at the top, and use a
flashlight to see. Or at the verrry least he should keep one hand in
his pocket, literally, so he can't touch things with two hands and get
killed, literally.

First turn off the breaker in question.

Then when the breaker is off, unscrew the screw that holds the wire at
the end of the breaker that's not in the middle of the box. Probably
don't have to unscrew it all the way. You don't want the screw

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out an important step that will confuse him.

After you've turned off the main breaker, you can't see the screws or the wires. There is a safety shield in place. That must be removed, carefully.


Removing that steel cover is what makes me the most nervous because
as you say, there is still the incoming live feeds at the top. Watching
that Holmes show from Canada, I noticed that their panels had a separate
cover for that area, so that if you turned off the main and remove the
other cover for the breakers, no chance of hitting anything live. I
wonder, is that just a Canadian thing or do some or all new panels here
have that too? Required by Canadian code thing?

I am in Canada, my breaker panel was new just after we bought this house
in 97, installed by an electrician, and passed inspection, it does not
have a separate cover for where the live wires enter it. So I can say
that was note code then, though it may be now.

I've been looking for information on this - but I am almost sure it
was a requirement in ontario in '96

I know a lot of american panels were not legal for use in Ontario
because they did not have the separation - and I know FOR SURE it is
in code now, because even a non current carrying conductor cannot
transit between the "mains" and "load" side of the panel and pass.
(the ground wire for the voltage sensing device that tells when the
power comes back on when running on generator was not allowed to be
run out to the "load" side by my inspector last month)

HOW ABOUT CALL ELECTRICIAN???

"E. Robinson" wrote in message ...

How do I debug when a circuit breaker keeps tripping?

1. It has never tripped before (years).
2. Yesterday, it was tripped.
3. I flip it back on, and it trips immediately.
4. It controls a bunch of outlets and lights and that's about it.

I turn off the lights it controls.
I unplug all the outlets.

It still trips.

How do you debug these things?

snips


I know a lot of american panels were not legal for use in Ontario
because they did not have the separation - and I know FOR SURE it is
in code now, because even a non current carrying conductor cannot
transit between the "mains" and "load" side of the panel and pass.
(the ground wire for the voltage sensing device that tells when the
power comes back on when running on generator was not allowed to be
run out to the "load" side by my inspector last month)


... sorry for hi-jacking the thread ..
Clare :
Is your " grid power ON " alert device audible ?
- or I suspect something more sophisticated -
for generator auto-start/auto-stop ?
I've been wanting to install a simple alert device -
I presently rely on my neighbour to phone me
Ideally - something non-invasive - so I wouldn't need
a dis-connect and inspection.
I'm dreaming of a little device that I simply hang on the
incoming at my basement panel, when I'm on generator -
- remove it when I disconnect the genny -
- it alerts when sensing AC potential in the conductor.
A loud audible alert is best. Any helpful ideas are welcome.
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:41:38 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 13:16:39 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

If it will not stay in the OFF position that indicates something is wrong
with that breaker. A spark or flash does not mean much. If there is a bad
overload, repeated resetting of the breaker could cause it to go bad.

It stays fine in the off position.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Here it is in the off position (top right, 4th down, 15 amp).
http://i65.tinypic.com/i5692c.jpg

Here it trips the instant I try to set it to on.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2ec2kol.jpg

Temporarily it has this:

Tinypic Site Maintenance

Images and videos will continue to serve during this short
maintenance.

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:31:16 -0500, wrote:

snips


I know a lot of american panels were not legal for use in Ontario
because they did not have the separation - and I know FOR SURE it is
in code now, because even a non current carrying conductor cannot
transit between the "mains" and "load" side of the panel and pass.
(the ground wire for the voltage sensing device that tells when the
power comes back on when running on generator was not allowed to be
run out to the "load" side by my inspector last month)


.. sorry for hi-jacking the thread ..
Clare :
Is your " grid power ON " alert device audible ?

It is a simple audible alarm
- or I suspect something more sophisticated -
for generator auto-start/auto-stop ?
I've been wanting to install a simple alert device -
I presently rely on my neighbour to phone me
Ideally - something non-invasive - so I wouldn't need
a dis-connect and inspection.
Totally non-invasive - battery powered add-on

Reliance PowerBack
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-...P108/202216506
I'm dreaming of a little device that I simply hang on the
incoming at my basement panel, when I'm on generator -
- remove it when I disconnect the genny -
- it alerts when sensing AC potential in the conductor.
A loud audible alert is best. Any helpful ideas are welcome.
John T.


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:12:06 -0800, Tony944 wrote:

HOW ABOUT CALL ELECTRICIAN???

Why does this newsgroup exist if that's the answer?

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:28:24 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

The OP doesn't know anything about a panel and you've left out
an important step that will confuse him.


The OP dont know ANYTHING about electrical, PERIOD. He should not be
touching any of it. He's going to electrocute himself, or start a fire,
or kill someone else.

I'm an avid supporter of DIY, but a person has to have some knowledge of
stuff, (especially electrical). After reading what this OP is posting,
he should not touch anything electrical. Just call an electrician and be
done with it. It's far better to pay a couple hundred dollars to a pro,
than die or cause a fire!

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 03:05:48 -0000 (UTC), "E. Robinson"
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:12:06 -0800, Tony944 wrote:

HOW ABOUT CALL ELECTRICIAN???

Why does this newsgroup exist if that's the answer?

Because some of us know what we're doing. I'm always willing to assist
others on this NG, but electricity can KILL. I read between the lines,
and I can "read" their skill level, and I am not going to assist someone
with killing themselves. This OP is clueless about basic electricity and
should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!

I agree, CALL AN ELECTRICIAN !

If he was trying to replace a door, but showed the same lack of basic
carpentry skills, I'd still be willing to assist, because doors dont
kill people if they make a slight mistake.