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#1
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
Hi,
I'm planning a wet bar in finishing my basement. It will have a counter with a sink. No provision for a stove, nor automatic dishwasher. It will need a greywater pump under the sink because I'm below the main drain. Not clear on what NEC directs for circuits and wiring. I believe this qualifies as a "similar area" to a kitchen (as specified in the NEC), so I know GFCI's required every 2ft. on the counter. 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more? 2. Does it depend on the length of the countertop? 3. Do I need a dedicated circuit just for that pump under the sink? (the models I see at HomeDepot draw 8amps, if that makes any difference). 4. Anything else I should watch out for? Thanks for your input. Theodore. |
#2
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#3
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#5
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:18:39 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
Will this *be* greywater? No garbage disposal unit planned. And I'm not preparing food, but possible some dope might rinse their plate in this sink on Thanksgiving instead of bringing it upstairs. More conservative answer is yes, it's greywater. Does that change approach? Hmmm... I'm not sure of that. Are you using it for food preparation? Well, probably not. I will have no stove or cooktop in the basement. I would use it just to wash something instead of hauling it upstairs to the kitchen. Imagine having a sink near your washing machine (we had one growing up). Imagine a counter there to fold clothes. It's not really similar to a kitchen -- except that it has a counter and a sink (but so does a bathroom!). True. It'll have a counter with cabinets beneath and maybe above too. 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more? See above. I don't think it owuld be treated as a kitchen/food prep area. As such, you might be able to share the circuit in ways that are not allowed in a kitchen. First question you should ask is what do you *envision* your needs there to be? Will you have an electric frying pan roasting up cocktail weenies to serve to your buddies congregating there? Will you be using a portable electric grinder to trim ceramic bowls that you're throwing on a wheel and firing? etc. No... I've no exhaust fan either. I, personally, would not be preparing food in the basement. One way of looking at this is to consider the consequences of something *else* on that circuit tripping the breaker. I.e., now your pump is inoperative. What are the consequences? Would you want a battery backed pump? My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? Thanks for all other comments! |
#6
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:18:39 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
Will this *be* greywater? No garbage disposal unit planned. And I'm not preparing food, but possible some dope might rinse their plate in this sink on Thanksgiving instead of bringing it upstairs. More conservative answer is yes, it's greywater. Does that change approach? Hmmm... I'm not sure of that. Are you using it for food preparation? Well, probably not. I will have no stove or cooktop in the basement. I would use it just to wash something instead of hauling it upstairs to the kitchen. Imagine having a sink near your washing machine (we had one growing up). Imagine a counter there to fold clothes. It's not really similar to a kitchen -- except that it has a counter and a sink (but so does a bathroom!). True. It'll have a counter with cabinets beneath and maybe above too. 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more? See above. I don't think it owuld be treated as a kitchen/food prep area.. As such, you might be able to share the circuit in ways that are not allowed in a kitchen. First question you should ask is what do you *envision* your needs there to be? Will you have an electric frying pan roasting up cocktail weenies to serve to your buddies congregating there? Will you be using a portable electric grinder to trim ceramic bowls that you're throwing on a wheel and firing? etc. No... I've no exhaust fan either. I, personally, would not be preparing food in the basement. One way of looking at this is to consider the consequences of something *else* on that circuit tripping the breaker. I.e., now your pump is inoperative. What are the consequences? Would you want a battery backed pump? I thought the NEC mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. Is that correct? If so, to me, a sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. If so, does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Thanks for all other comments! |
#7
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#8
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#9
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:11:39 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Hi, I'm planning a wet bar in finishing my basement. It will have a counter with a sink. No provision for a stove, nor automatic dishwasher. It will need a greywater pump under the sink because I'm below the main drain. Not clear on what NEC directs for circuits and wiring. I believe this qualifies as a "similar area" to a kitchen (as specified in the NEC), so I know GFCI's required every 2ft. on the counter. 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more? 2. Does it depend on the length of the countertop? 3. Do I need a dedicated circuit just for that pump under the sink? (the models I see at HomeDepot draw 8amps, if that makes any difference). 4. Anything else I should watch out for? Thanks for your input. Theodore. Don't know about code in your area, but here each countertop receptacle has to be either a 20amp dedicated or a split15. Split15 gets expensive because you need a 2 pole GFCI breaker for each outlet, where you only need a 20 amp GFCI outlet for each using 20 amp circuits. I would put the pump on a separate 15 amp circuit. Even in Canada, that only applies to kitchens and since there is no permanently installed cooking equipment, it isn't a kitchen. |
#10
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-) I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't run. Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated circuit? Just curious. |
#11
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-) I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't run. Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated circuit? Just curious. It is a totally different function. The sump pump runs whenever water starts building up in the sump, from rain or ground water. You may not be there to be sure it is running. The sink pump only runs when you are there running water and it would be pretty apparent that it was not leaving the sink. Actually I am curious where the requirement that a sump pump be on an individual circuit is. I have never seen it. I just scanned the 2014 and I didn't see it and I know it wasn't in the 08 and I don't see it in the 11 analysis of changes. We won't be on the 14 here for 3 years or so. We just adopted the 11. |
#12
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#13
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster |
#14
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:51:04 -0700, Don Y
wrote: Having just 12" on either side of the sink will pretty much screw you wrt outlets (which need to be 12" from water). Where is that in the code? |
#15
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster The only way a sump pump does not to need to be on a GFCI is if it is in finished space or hard wired. I suppose you could use a 240v sump pump. Unfinished basements, utility rooms etc require GFCI everywhere (on 15 and 20a 120v receptacles). The exception for sump pumps went away a long time ago. |
#16
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
why the fixation on doing the absoute least?
log term your better off doing more, and having a much better and more flexible intstall/ i have run extra romex to dead end work boxes to be used in the future. done while the cielings and walls are open it just so much easier. plus when you decide to add someting like a fridge to keep pop cool your not already maxed out |
#17
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote: why the fixation on doing the absoute least? log term your better off doing more, and having a much better and more flexible intstall/ i have run extra romex to dead end work boxes to be used in the future. done while the cielings and walls are open it just so much easier. plus when you decide to add someting like a fridge to keep pop cool your not already maxed out If you really want to keep your options open, use smurf tube. Then you can pull in different wire and if you run extra smurf you have the opportunity to install all sorts of stuff. I ran it in my new addition http://gfretwell.com/electrical/addition/smurf_job.jpg All of the boxes terminate in a central location so I can change what any switch controls, among other things. I have already changed 2. I can also add wires if I need them since it is all 3/4" tube. http://gfretwell.com/electrical/addition/J%20box.jpg The wire cost is probably twice what Romex would be but that is pretty insignificant in the total cost of the project. |
#18
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On 10/05/2015 04:04 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster I've heard that also and I would argue that there is no such thing as a nuisance trip. A properly functioning GFCI trips because there is current leaking. Current leaking in a sump full of water is a fairly dangerous situation. Seems to me the proper thing to do is repair/replace the sump pump. Not to mention that current flowing to ground in your sump pit is metered electricity. |
#19
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 13:53:49 -0400, wrote:
On Mon, 05 Oct 2015 12:11:39 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 4 Oct 2015 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Hi, I'm planning a wet bar in finishing my basement. It will have a counter with a sink. No provision for a stove, nor automatic dishwasher. It will need a greywater pump under the sink because I'm below the main drain. Not clear on what NEC directs for circuits and wiring. I believe this qualifies as a "similar area" to a kitchen (as specified in the NEC), so I know GFCI's required every 2ft. on the counter. 1. Will one 20amp circuit for these countertop outlets suffice? or do I need more? 2. Does it depend on the length of the countertop? 3. Do I need a dedicated circuit just for that pump under the sink? (the models I see at HomeDepot draw 8amps, if that makes any difference). 4. Anything else I should watch out for? Thanks for your input. Theodore. Don't know about code in your area, but here each countertop receptacle has to be either a 20amp dedicated or a split15. Split15 gets expensive because you need a 2 pole GFCI breaker for each outlet, where you only need a 20 amp GFCI outlet for each using 20 amp circuits. I would put the pump on a separate 15 amp circuit. Even in Canada, that only applies to kitchens and since there is no permanently installed cooking equipment, it isn't a kitchen. No. it's not a kitchen, and there is no "permanently installed" cooking equipment. But get a party goi g with 2 coffee-makers, a hot plate, a crock pot, and an electric frying pan and you will want a few 20 amp circuits, or even more 15s. Not a code requirement - but if I were putting in a "wet bar" in a rec room or party room, I'd make sure I had enough juice available!! |
#20
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster IF it is on a "dedicated line" the GFCI is not required (or desired) |
#21
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
Ok, so sounds like you all are saying:
1. all outlets on counter of wet bar and within 6ft of sink need to be GFCI protected. 2. This circuit for these outlets can be shared, no requirement for dedicated 20amp line just to counter outlets (as would be the case if it were a kitchen). But if I do decide to share, it's WISE to include sufficient capacity for a nearby fridge and/or blender or toaster oven or microwave at this location. 3. Dedicated circuit for under-sink pump, with GFCI outlet. Any other input or comments? |
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#23
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-) I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't run. Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated circuit? Just curious. Well, hopefully you're smart enough to a) turn the water off before you leave the sink, b) turn the water off when you see the sink about to overflow, because the breaker for the pump tripped and nothing is draining. No one is watching when the sump fills, and if the breaker is tripped by another device, the pump will just sit t here while t he basement flods. |
#24
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 14:20:10 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote: why the fixation on doing the absoute least? log term your better off doing more, and having a much better and more flexible intstall/ i have run extra romex to dead end work boxes to be used in the future. done while the cielings and walls are open it just so much easier. So you're into doing the least also. You just calculate the least with more foresight!! ;-) plus when you decide to add someting like a fridge to keep pop cool your not already maxed out See above. |
#25
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:10:34 PM UTC-5, Ted wrote:
On 10/05/2015 04:04 PM, Uncle Monster wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster I've heard that also and I would argue that there is no such thing as a nuisance trip. A properly functioning GFCI trips because there is current leaking. Current leaking in a sump full of water is a fairly dangerous situation. Seems to me the proper thing to do is repair/replace the sump pump. Not to mention that current flowing to ground in your sump pit is metered electricity. I was working in the electrical business when ground fault breakers first arrived on the scene for consumers. CB radios were tripping the breakers and voltage surges or nearby lighting strikes would often trip them. I imagine a modern ground fault interrupter has some smarts and is much more reliable than the first generation. Everything has a microprocessor in it these days and I imagine a modern ground fault breaker or receptacle could have one too. Here's a 10 year old article on the subject of microprocessors used in circuit breakers. ^_^ http://www.lntebg.com/news/upload/cu...995Jan-Mar.pdf [8~{} Uncle Fault Monster |
#26
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 00:02:36 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:10:34 PM UTC-5, Ted wrote: On 10/05/2015 04:04 PM, Uncle Monster wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster I've heard that also and I would argue that there is no such thing as a nuisance trip. A properly functioning GFCI trips because there is current leaking. Current leaking in a sump full of water is a fairly dangerous situation. Seems to me the proper thing to do is repair/replace the sump pump. Not to mention that current flowing to ground in your sump pit is metered electricity. I was working in the electrical business when ground fault breakers first arrived on the scene for consumers. CB radios were tripping the breakers and voltage surges or nearby lighting strikes would often trip them. I imagine a modern ground fault interrupter has some smarts and is much more reliable than the first generation. Everything has a microprocessor in it these days and I imagine a modern ground fault breaker or receptacle could have one too. Here's a 10 year old article on the subject of microprocessors used in circuit breakers. ^_^ http://www.lntebg.com/news/upload/cu...995Jan-Mar.pdf [8~{} Uncle Fault Monster A lot of electronics will actually have a low current line to ground fault through RF filters. I have an old TV that will trip a GFCI every time if the RF connector is hooked to a "TV out" card in a PC. |
#27
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 9:59:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster IF it is on a "dedicated line" the GFCI is not required (or desired) You have a code cite for that? AFAIK, there is no such exception for a sump pump in a basement. EVERY receptacle has to be on a GFCI. Are you just making stuff up again? |
#28
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#29
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 8:39:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 00:02:36 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 8:10:34 PM UTC-5, Ted wrote: On 10/05/2015 04:04 PM, Uncle Monster wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Does a sump pump have to be on a ground fault circuit? I seem to recall something about eschewing a ground fault circuit for a sump pump to avoid nuisance trips. o_O [8~{} Uncle Nuisance Monster I've heard that also and I would argue that there is no such thing as a nuisance trip. A properly functioning GFCI trips because there is current leaking. Current leaking in a sump full of water is a fairly dangerous situation. Seems to me the proper thing to do is repair/replace the sump pump. Not to mention that current flowing to ground in your sump pit is metered electricity. I was working in the electrical business when ground fault breakers first arrived on the scene for consumers. CB radios were tripping the breakers and voltage surges or nearby lighting strikes would often trip them. I imagine a modern ground fault interrupter has some smarts and is much more reliable than the first generation. Everything has a microprocessor in it these days and I imagine a modern ground fault breaker or receptacle could have one too. Here's a 10 year old article on the subject of microprocessors used in circuit breakers. ^_^ http://www.lntebg.com/news/upload/cu...995Jan-Mar.pdf [8~{} Uncle Fault Monster A lot of electronics will actually have a low current line to ground fault through RF filters. I have an old TV that will trip a GFCI every time if the RF connector is hooked to a "TV out" card in a PC. I had a big 19" rack mount multi output adjustable power supply of the type used in electronics service/development work and it would always trip a ground fault receptacle. I'm not sure where the voltage to ground was but I believe it had to do with the way the power supply was designed to filter electrical noise out of the DC outputs. o_O [8~{} Uncle Noisy Monster |
#30
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 9:54:08 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 10/6/2015 6:38 AM, wrote: A lot of electronics will actually have a low current line to ground fault through RF filters. I have an old TV that will trip a GFCI every time if the RF connector is hooked to a "TV out" card in a PC. I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset breakers often. IMO, there's still too much BFM involved in GFCI's. Despite being "simple" (in theory), *practice* seems to yield very different results! The "back yard" circuit, here, still needs my attention as it trips randomly and pretty regularly despite all the outlets being (environmentally) "protected". [I half suspect I'll find an insect to be the cause or something equally unexpected!] Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster |
#31
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On 10/6/2015 8:20 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset breakers often. Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^ 2014 code: 210.8(D): "GFCI protection shall be required for outlets that supply dishwashers..." Of course, the power cords for many dishwashers aren't accessible when the washer is in use. So, a GFCI *outlet* (receptacle) is out of the question (also, GFCI outlets tend to be duplex). So, this translates to a GFCI *breaker* for the dishwasher. |
#32
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 01:03:56 -0400, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-) I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't run. Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated circuit? Just curious. Well, hopefully you're smart enough to a) turn the water off before you leave the sink, b) turn the water off when you see the sink about to overflow, because the breaker for the pump tripped and nothing is draining. No one is watching when the sump fills, and if the breaker is tripped by another device, the pump will just sit t here while t he basement flods. The "sump" is below the drain level, and can overflow before the sink backs up - at least on many laundry pumps I've seen. They have a small "tank" that fills to a particular level before the ejector pump starts. If the pump doesn't start the tank fills to the top - and SOME will leak when this happens - making a mess. |
#33
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote: On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 9:54:08 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote: On 10/6/2015 6:38 AM, wrote: A lot of electronics will actually have a low current line to ground fault through RF filters. I have an old TV that will trip a GFCI every time if the RF connector is hooked to a "TV out" card in a PC. I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset breakers often. IMO, there's still too much BFM involved in GFCI's. Despite being "simple" (in theory), *practice* seems to yield very different results! The "back yard" circuit, here, still needs my attention as it trips randomly and pretty regularly despite all the outlets being (environmentally) "protected". [I half suspect I'll find an insect to be the cause or something equally unexpected!] Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^ [8~{} Uncle Faulty Monster You are going to have to set the way back machine to the Reagan administration to find all of those exceptions. Virtually every exception to the GFCI rule is gone now and if it isn't GFCI it will have to be AFCI which has 30ma level GF protection. The only exception I know of is for ice melting equipment that is not in a readily accessible location. Since the OP seems to be talking about a finished basement the GFCI would only be required within 6' from the sink but he probably needs AFCIs since this became something similar to a family room. The sink area probably needs both. |
#34
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 08:34:23 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 10/6/2015 8:20 AM, Uncle Monster wrote: I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset breakers often. Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^ 2014 code: 210.8(D): "GFCI protection shall be required for outlets that supply dishwashers..." Of course, the power cords for many dishwashers aren't accessible when the washer is in use. So, a GFCI *outlet* (receptacle) is out of the question (also, GFCI outlets tend to be duplex). So, this translates to a GFCI *breaker* for the dishwasher. There is nothing to say it can't be a duplex but they also make a dead front GFCI device that fits in a regular device box like the receptacle but has no receptacles. You would put this in an accessible place up stream of an appliance with a plug in a place that was not accessible without pulling out the appliance. In exterior locations, these are handy because it can be under a water tight snap cover instead of those code mandated "bee condos" the code requires for receptacles. For the reason you mentioned (a long walk to reset it) the device style GFCI in the area it will be used is usually a better design choice. |
#35
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
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#36
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015 at 1:32:03 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/6/2015 9:51 AM, wrote: On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 08:34:23 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 10/6/2015 8:20 AM, Uncle Monster wrote: I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset breakers often. Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^ 2014 code: 210.8(D): "GFCI protection shall be required for outlets that supply dishwashers..." Of course, the power cords for many dishwashers aren't accessible when the washer is in use. So, a GFCI *outlet* (receptacle) is out of the question (also, GFCI outlets tend to be duplex). So, this translates to a GFCI *breaker* for the dishwasher. There is nothing to say it can't be a duplex but they also make a dead My undestanding of "dedicated" circuits is that it can't be possible to plug anything *else* into the circuit alongside the "dedicated" appliance. E.g., our dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, etc. all have "single outlet" receptacles. They can do that, but AFAIK, there is no NEC code requirement that the fridge and DW be on dedicated circuits or that they utilize single receptacles. Aa far as the furnace being on a cord plugged into a receptacle, that is a NEC violation, unless you have some furnace that came with a cord and plug, which I highly doubt exists and the furnace requires it for maintenance. Some inspectors in some areas are OK with it though. Even the condensate pump in the furnace ties into the furnaces "plug" instead of having it's own (which would be much more sensible given that the pump resides outside the furnace). People can wire things all kinds of strange ways, doesn't mean that code requires it or that it's right. |
#37
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 12:38:33 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 01:03:56 -0400, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-) I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't run. Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated circuit? Just curious. Well, hopefully you're smart enough to a) turn the water off before you leave the sink, b) turn the water off when you see the sink about to overflow, because the breaker for the pump tripped and nothing is draining. No one is watching when the sump fills, and if the breaker is tripped by another device, the pump will just sit t here while t he basement flods. The "sump" is below the drain level, and can overflow before the sink backs up - at least on many laundry pumps I've seen. They have a small "tank" that fills to a particular level before the ejector pump starts. If the pump doesn't start the tank fills to the top - and SOME will leak when this happens - making a mess. That is why I suggested putting it on the circuit with the light. |
#38
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 10:32:16 -0700, Don Y
wrote: On 10/6/2015 9:51 AM, wrote: On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 08:34:23 -0700, Don Y wrote: On 10/6/2015 8:20 AM, Uncle Monster wrote: I think a lot of inductive loads can also lead to problems with GFCI trips. I've been reluctant to upgrade the dishwasher circuit to GFCI (as called for in the new code) for fear that I'll be running outside to reset breakers often. Information I've come across indicates that any appliance which uses water or will normally get wet shouldn't be plugged into a ground fault receptacle. It listed dish washers, refrigerators, freezers, washing machines and disposals. It didn't specifically mention sump pumps. I'd have to find it again to post a link. ^_^ 2014 code: 210.8(D): "GFCI protection shall be required for outlets that supply dishwashers..." Of course, the power cords for many dishwashers aren't accessible when the washer is in use. So, a GFCI *outlet* (receptacle) is out of the question (also, GFCI outlets tend to be duplex). So, this translates to a GFCI *breaker* for the dishwasher. There is nothing to say it can't be a duplex but they also make a dead My undestanding of "dedicated" circuits is that it can't be possible to plug anything *else* into the circuit alongside the "dedicated" appliance. E.g., our dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, etc. all have "single outlet" receptacles. Even the condensate pump in the furnace ties into the furnaces "plug" instead of having it's own (which would be much more sensible given that the pump resides outside the furnace). As long as the fixed in place equipment does not draw more than 50% of the ampacity of the circuit it can have receptacles on it. front GFCI device that fits in a regular device box like the receptacle but has no receptacles. You would put this in an accessible place up stream of an appliance with a plug in a place that was not accessible without pulling out the appliance. In exterior locations, these are handy because it can be under a water tight snap cover instead of those code mandated "bee condos" the code requires for receptacles. What's the value of an outdoor receptacle that has no receptacles? : IME, most folks have very few outdoor receptacles. You have the receptacles down stream from the dead front GFCI. Then the GFCI can have a snap cover and the receptacles still have those useless "in use" covers. I prefer to have a GFCI inside feeding the outside receptacles but the dead front is another option. When we moved in, here, there was one GFCI circuit. It handled the outlets in the two bathrooms, the outlet in the garage, the outlet on the front porch and the outlet on the side porch. (i.e., nothing in the kitchen!) There are now five or six outlets along the back of the house (I think 4 on the porch, alone -- no need for cords to cross the doorway!). Bathrooms have a shared circuit. Two for counters. Another for garage, etc. They fixed that around the 1990 when it was required that the bathroom circuits have no other outlets. For the reason you mentioned (a long walk to reset it) the device style GFCI in the area it will be used is usually a better design choice. A GFCI shouldn't be tripping. The same should be true of a breaker. If you need for it to be "convenient" to reset, then you're doing something wrong. If its that easy to "undo" it's initial attempt at protection, you're more likely to blindly "reset" it -- only bothering to try to understand "why" when it trips AGAIN. You are also supposed to test them once a month according to the lawyers who signed off on them ;-) |
#39
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
On Tue, 6 Oct 2015 10:58:16 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote: My undestanding of "dedicated" circuits is that it can't be possible to plug anything *else* into the circuit alongside the "dedicated" appliance. E.g., our dishwasher, refrigerator, furnace, etc. all have "single outlet" receptacles. They can do that, but AFAIK, there is no NEC code requirement that the fridge and DW be on dedicated circuits or that they utilize single receptacles. Aa far as the furnace being on a cord plugged into a receptacle, that is a NEC violation, unless you have some furnace that came with a cord and plug, which I highly doubt exists and the furnace requires it for maintenance. Some inspectors in some areas are OK with it though. The guys I know are about 50:50 with these things being "cord and plug". The ones who are OK with it still want it done right. That means no romex jammed into a plug, use a real hard service cord and use the proper cord connectors, not romex clamps.. I do understand that if you are keeping your house from freezing with a portable generator, it is better to use cords than to be back feeding the dryer receptacle with a suicide plug. |
#40
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Basement wet bar: wiring and circuit questions
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:56:30 -0400,
wrote: On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 12:38:33 -0400, wrote: On Tue, 06 Oct 2015 01:03:56 -0400, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 5 Oct 2015 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2015 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: My concern with this is that the code mentions a "sump pump" must be on a dedicated circuit. To me, sump pump is for a whole house dewatering system in the basement. Does this (under sink pump) qualify as a sump pump by the NEC? That is not a sump pump. If it is what I have seen in other basements with septic systems, it only runs when you are running water in the sink. Well, a sump pump only runs when you are "running water" in the sump. ;-) I say that somewhat facetiously, but is there really a difference? Both pumps are automatic in that they only run when they need to move water and both the sink and the sump could cause flooding if the pump didn't run. Why wouldn't they be treated the same as far as requiring a dedicated circuit? Just curious. Well, hopefully you're smart enough to a) turn the water off before you leave the sink, b) turn the water off when you see the sink about to overflow, because the breaker for the pump tripped and nothing is draining. No one is watching when the sump fills, and if the breaker is tripped by another device, the pump will just sit t here while t he basement flods. The "sump" is below the drain level, and can overflow before the sink backs up - at least on many laundry pumps I've seen. They have a small "tank" that fills to a particular level before the ejector pump starts. If the pump doesn't start the tank fills to the top - and SOME will leak when this happens - making a mess. Still, he will likely notice that it's not making any noise, and he'll be there to see the water on the floor before it floods the whole basement. Before he leaves he'll turn off the water and only a little more will come out. That is why I suggested putting it on the circuit with the light. That too. |
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