On 12/30/2013 07:53 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/30/2013 8:30 AM, philo wrote:
Silver solder might be a lot better, but for the 350amp contacts we
used, the cost would be prohibitive. (Even lead/tin solder in the
quantities we would have needed would have been expensive.)

What job or project was that? How many quantities?



Since I was in the industrial battery business I'd replace or install
close to 1000 connectors a year. Since Enersys itself is a world wide
company they used hundreds of thousands of connectors a year...more than
likely , over a million.

Working on that scale, I can imagine the solder,
torch, power for the soldering iron and so on.
That would add up after a while. I do a couple
dozen crimps a year, and max of 15 amp rating
or so. For me to get out a torch and some silver
solder is no big expense.

Thanks for sharing a bit more about the, uh,
"big picture" of what you were doing.





Sure thing...plus for low current I don't think solder vs crimp is going
to make much difference.

On 12/30/2013 6:35 PM, philo wrote:
Thanks for sharing a bit more about the, uh,
"big picture" of what you were doing.





Sure thing...plus for low current I don't think solder vs crimp is going
to make much difference.

When I was a toddler, I lived in a wooden crib with
plastic covers on the rails. Makes me wonder if
some kind of plastic cover can be made for high
potential bus bars? Could be either cut to length,
or some thing. Would make the setup less likely to
attract metal tools.

Since the bars are a predictable size, a plastic cover
could be snapped on.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/30/2013 06:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:


When I was a toddler, I lived in a wooden crib with
plastic covers on the rails. Makes me wonder if
some kind of plastic cover can be made for high
potential bus bars? Could be either cut to length,
or some thing. Would make the setup less likely to
attract metal tools.

Since the bars are a predictable size, a plastic cover
could be snapped on.




Insulated "shrouds" are now used on all industrial batteries
(forklift)...but they weren't many years ago.

OTOH: Stationary batteries AFAIK do not have them...and now that you
mention it, would be a darn good idea.




Of course no one but trained personnel would normally be allowed near a
stationary battery setup and with a motive power (forklift)
battery...access would not be restricted.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:08:04 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:08:06 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution.

Solder will actually cause more problems than it solves (for properly
crimped connectors). Solder will wick up into multi-strand wire and
cause the wire to break at that point, under flex (work hardening).

That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility.

They don't need to be machines. Hand crimpers work fine for smaller
connectors. The ratcheting type are best.

The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Sure but adding solder doesn't solve anything if the crimp is good.

Putting aside vibration issues, I've always viewed the solder as
insurance against corrosion.

It won't help if the crimp was right to begin with.

have found crimps that were bad due to
corrosion when used in exposed to weather areas. Never found a
problem when they were soldered in such use.

The wire breaks, instead.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:40:37 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:09:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:06:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/28/2013 6:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
This article says soldering is less desirable than crimps for
Anderson Power Pole terminals.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html
I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp. What's your
thoughts?

I have a ratcheting type crimp tool and have used low temperature silver
on crimped connectors if I'm worried about moisture wicking into the
stranded wire plus heat shrink that has the hot melt sticky stuff on the
inside. Regular heat shrink tubing makes a good strain relief on the
wire crimped into a connector because it prevents a sharp 90° bend in
the wire crimped into the connector when it's put under stress. The most
important thing, don't nick the wire when you strip the insulation off
of it. ^_^

The crimp forms an air (moisture) tight seal. Solder doesn't add
anything and will cause wires to break.


Really, that must be why when they bury wires they just crimp them and
call it good......

If the connector is designed to be crimped and buried, solder isn't
going to help. It often will cause problems, though. Use connectors
the way they were designed to be used and you will have fewer
problems. ...but I'm sure you think you know better than the
manufacturer.

for high current crip connections life depends on the type of terminal used...

copper ring terminals using screw to the whatever like a switch , is much better than steel or alunimum spade slide on connectors.....

the poorer the connection causes resistance which heats the connection, which increase the resistance and before you know it the wole mess overheats and the connection opens. a little smoke gets lots of attention.

this occurs all the time on the machines i service for a living. I carry a roll of 14 gauge wire for splicing, and keep some 12 gauge for selected locations

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 17:08:06 -0700, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


I've addressed this over and over...Crimp is better than solder:

Years ago when I was involved in the security industry, I worked with
alarm installers who pulled wire, made connections, and HAD the years of
experience of PRACTICAL installs. They made the comment to me that crimp
is the BEST connection, and solder will tend to fail, and definitely NEVER
solder a crimp connection because it loses its 'goodness'.

Sadly, being an arrogant youth and being skilled at soldering, having a
degree from Stanford, and jsut generally knowing 'I' knew better; I didn't
listen. So, when I installed my security system in my home, I, of course,
soldered the connections. I wrapped wires a good one inch with at least 5
twists and flowed the solder on beautifully - classic high qaulity
workmanship. Ten years later, a false alarm, reset no problem. month later
another false alarm, reset too, and more and more often until once a week
a false alarm. I went around and resoldered all my connections and guess
what no more false alarms for you guessed it another ten years. ...From
this experience, I learned a lot of respect for people who may not have
degrees, but have to do the work everyday, and learn from THEIR
experiences.

Also, look at the phone company. they don't solder, they also use
mechanical pressure to maintain contact. After all, that is ALL soldering
does. It maintains some semblance of 'sealing' and mechanically
constraining the connection you made by simply twisting two wires together.

CONCLUSION: *IF* you want a reliable connection to last for years,
CRIMP!!! and follow the directions.

Plus, and this can get really, really bad. If your soldered connection is
passing power and starts to fail, you guessed it!, it will unsolder itself
for you! Seen that, too.

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

...snip...
The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution. That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility. The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Not good idea to solder a crimped connector. The heat usually relaxes the
pressure of the crimp nnd the advantage of the crimp is lost.

RobertMacy wrote:
On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 17:08:06 -0700, Stormin Mormon wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


I've addressed this over and over...Crimp is better than solder:

Years ago when I was involved in the security industry, I worked with
alarm installers who pulled wire, made connections, and HAD the years of
experience of PRACTICAL installs. They made the comment to me that crimp
is the BEST connection, and solder will tend to fail, and definitely
NEVER solder a crimp connection because it loses its 'goodness'.

Sadly, being an arrogant youth and being skilled at soldering, having a
degree from Stanford, and jsut generally knowing 'I' knew better; I
didn't listen. So, when I installed my security system in my home, I, of
course, soldered the connections. I wrapped wires a good one inch with
at least 5 twists and flowed the solder on beautifully - classic high
qaulity workmanship. Ten years later, a false alarm, reset no problem.
month later another false alarm, reset too, and more and more often
until once a week a false alarm. I went around and resoldered all my
connections and guess what no more false alarms for you guessed it
another ten years. ...From this experience, I learned a lot of respect
for people who may not have degrees, but have to do the work everyday,
and learn from THEIR experiences.

Also, look at the phone company. they don't solder, they also use
mechanical pressure to maintain contact. After all, that is ALL soldering
does. It maintains some semblance of 'sealing' and mechanically
constraining the connection you made by simply twisting two wires together.

CONCLUSION: *IF* you want a reliable connection to last for years,
CRIMP!!! and follow the directions.

Plus, and this can get really, really bad. If your soldered connection is
passing power and starts to fail, you guessed it!, it will unsolder
itself for you! Seen that, too.

In the mean time, I'll fix bad crimps by soldering.

Greg

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 07:42:45 -0700, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

...snip....
On my winter bike - equipped with an electric motor - I've got 4 crimped
Anderson connectors and four solder joints.

Over five years, the solder joints have failed twice but the crimped
connectors have given no problems.

OTOH, that's just failure. The efficiency of transmission has got to
be a whole other issue - which I have no clue about.

If you looked at crimp vs solder over the whole spectrum, you'd find the
soldered connection to become 'noisy' with time. ...having variable
resistance. Not too noticeable if you're powering a motor, because who
cares if the connection comes and goes once in a while?

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:49:56 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:08:04 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:08:06 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution.

Solder will actually cause more problems than it solves (for properly
crimped connectors). Solder will wick up into multi-strand wire and
cause the wire to break at that point, under flex (work hardening).

That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility.

They don't need to be machines. Hand crimpers work fine for smaller
connectors. The ratcheting type are best.

The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Sure but adding solder doesn't solve anything if the crimp is good.

Putting aside vibration issues, I've always viewed the solder as
insurance against corrosion.

It won't help if the crimp was right to begin with.

No matter how perfect the crimp is it won't keep moisture out of the
joint area. The edges of the metals are exposed, the corrosion starts
there and works it's way back eating away at the metals. Just look at
all the corroded battery cables that are crimped into the battery
clamps, eventually the stuff corrodes away.


have found crimps that were bad due to
corrosion when used in exposed to weather areas. Never found a
problem when they were soldered in such use.

The wire breaks, instead.

I've had far far more failed crimps from corrosion in exposed to
weather areas then wires breaks from any cause. In fact, the only
wire breaks I've had were on crimped and NOT soldered connections.
I've never had a crimped AND soldered connection fail. YMMV.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:51:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:40:37 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:09:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:06:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/28/2013 6:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
This article says soldering is less desirable than crimps for
Anderson Power Pole terminals.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html
I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp. What's your
thoughts?

I have a ratcheting type crimp tool and have used low temperature silver
on crimped connectors if I'm worried about moisture wicking into the
stranded wire plus heat shrink that has the hot melt sticky stuff on the
inside. Regular heat shrink tubing makes a good strain relief on the
wire crimped into a connector because it prevents a sharp 90° bend in
the wire crimped into the connector when it's put under stress. The most
important thing, don't nick the wire when you strip the insulation off
of it. ^_^

The crimp forms an air (moisture) tight seal. Solder doesn't add
anything and will cause wires to break.


Really, that must be why when they bury wires they just crimp them and
call it good......

If the connector is designed to be crimped and buried, solder isn't
going to help. It often will cause problems, though. Use connectors
the way they were designed to be used and you will have fewer
problems. ...but I'm sure you think you know better than the
manufacturer.

You said crimps form a moisture tight seal. They don't. That's why
no one but an idiot would crimp a wire and rely on your claim that
it's suddenly become moisture tight.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 18:29:23 -0500, Fred McKenzie
wrote:

In article ,
Ashton Crusher wrote:

Depending on what's needed, crimping is almost always going to be
faster and cheaper for a great many applications and will be "good
enough" for the life needed.

You are suggesting that soldering, although more time consuming and
expensive, would be better for longer-life applications.

Back in the early 60s, I worked with an engineer that needed to
determine which type of connection would be best for use in a
high-reliability military system.

Half of several connector sets were soldered, half were crimped. This
included using smaller gauge wire in some pins, folding the wire for
crimping.

My job was to monitor the testing, which included vibration, shock,
temperature cycling, humidity cycling and salt spray.

As I recall, there were numerous failures of the soldered connections.
The only crimp failures were where smaller gauge wire was used.

Fred


I said "depending on what's needed". I made no claim that soldering
was always better nor that crimping was always better, only that
crimping is faster and IF conditions are such that crimping will last
the design life it's likely that manufacturers will crimp rather then
solder. Same as why production electricians will shove the wires into
the spring clip holes on home electrical outlets instead of taking the
time to wrap the wire dinner the screw and tighten it. Same reason
many things are pop-riveted instead of brazed, and on and on.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 23:19:40 -0700, gregz wrote:

...snip...
In the mean time, I'll fix bad crimps by soldering.

Greg

Didn't know we were comparing bad crimps to bad soldering. Yes, as my
example showed, soldering works very well ...for a while.

Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:49:56 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:08:04 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:08:06 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution.

Solder will actually cause more problems than it solves (for properly
crimped connectors). Solder will wick up into multi-strand wire and
cause the wire to break at that point, under flex (work hardening).

That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility.

They don't need to be machines. Hand crimpers work fine for smaller
connectors. The ratcheting type are best.

The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Sure but adding solder doesn't solve anything if the crimp is good.

Putting aside vibration issues, I've always viewed the solder as
insurance against corrosion.

It won't help if the crimp was right to begin with.

No matter how perfect the crimp is it won't keep moisture out of the
joint area. The edges of the metals are exposed, the corrosion starts
there and works it's way back eating away at the metals. Just look at
all the corroded battery cables that are crimped into the battery
clamps, eventually the stuff corrodes away.


have found crimps that were bad due to
corrosion when used in exposed to weather areas. Never found a
problem when they were soldered in such use.

The wire breaks, instead.

I've had far far more failed crimps from corrosion in exposed to
weather areas then wires breaks from any cause. In fact, the only
wire breaks I've had were on crimped and NOT soldered connections.
I've never had a crimped AND soldered connection fail. YMMV.

My guess, a crimp would work best on a single wire. Little strands do not
get pinched together enough inside the bundle, and corrosion keeps wicking
through.
I never saw a wire wrap fail, but I never saw them used in poor
environment.
I've crimped really small contacts where soldering would take too long, and
be impossible to prevent wicking. The crimpers also sometimes cost several
hundred dollars. I'll admit, sometimes crimps are better. There is the
other case, often on home appliances. The wires and crimps, and slide on
connectors, get warm, then hotter, then literally burn off. The crimp will
fail as well as turning the slide on contacts, brittle falling apart.

Greg

On 12/30/2013 2:25 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 03:06:33 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

"Ralph Mowery" wrote:
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...

OTOH, that's just failure. The efficiency of transmission has
got to be a whole other issue - which I have no clue about. --


Again done correctly, the crimp will have almost no differance
than a single piece of wire. The solder will have a very small
ammount of resistance.

Probably did not come out the way I want it to, but the crimp
will have less resistance than a soldered joint.


That's why a proper soldered joint is first crimped. Solder holds
and seals the connection. That's the way I was taught.

I can make some pretty poor soldering at times, but I can also use
proper technique. I passed a NASA soldering school class.

Who says a solder connection does not need proper strain relief to
prevent vibration failure.

I have soldered large battery cables using hundreds of watts, as
well as 1.5 mm caps to boards.

Greg

Our "radio guy" for all the state 2-way radios installs them with
crimped connections as far as hooking them into the car electrical
system, no soldering.

I only solder them when they really need it. Otherwise, I use my
ratcheting crimp tool and crimp the insulated connection and cable grip.
The more expensive connectors have a metal sleeve under the cable grip
insulation. ^_^

TDD

On 12/31/2013 12:19 AM, gregz wrote:
RobertMacy wrote:

In the mean time, I'll fix bad crimps by soldering.

Greg


Why not good crimps? :-)

As an aside. Some terminals will have their listing voided
if soldered. The air flow in the terminal is part of the
cooling allowing for the rated ampacity. These terminals
are usually aluminum or a crappy alloy. If possible, always
get terminals rated for 90 degree C.


People who find faulty crimps usually found someone who used
the wrong tool for the job. Those crappy wire stripper/crimper
all in one tools with the crimp section toward the handle are
pure junk. I prefer, as an all in one, a dedicated multi
crimper from Klein. Long handles and you can really bear down
on the terminal. Forward section is multi-gauge for insulated,
and the rear section is for multi-gauge non-insulated.

On 12/31/2013 12:24 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:


I've had far far more failed crimps from corrosion in exposed to
weather areas then wires breaks from any cause. In fact, the only
wire breaks I've had were on crimped and NOT soldered connections.
I've never had a crimped AND soldered connection fail. YMMV.


Sounds more like operator error. 33+ is a viable option, or
sealing heatshrink. Your point is no different than complaining
about terminal blocks that corroded.

On 12/31/2013 12:48 AM, gregz wrote:
Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:49:56 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:08:04 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:08:06 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution.

Solder will actually cause more problems than it solves (for properly
crimped connectors). Solder will wick up into multi-strand wire and
cause the wire to break at that point, under flex (work hardening).

That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility.

They don't need to be machines. Hand crimpers work fine for smaller
connectors. The ratcheting type are best.

The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Sure but adding solder doesn't solve anything if the crimp is good.

Putting aside vibration issues, I've always viewed the solder as
insurance against corrosion.

It won't help if the crimp was right to begin with.

No matter how perfect the crimp is it won't keep moisture out of the
joint area. The edges of the metals are exposed, the corrosion starts
there and works it's way back eating away at the metals. Just look at
all the corroded battery cables that are crimped into the battery
clamps, eventually the stuff corrodes away.


have found crimps that were bad due to
corrosion when used in exposed to weather areas. Never found a
problem when they were soldered in such use.

The wire breaks, instead.

I've had far far more failed crimps from corrosion in exposed to
weather areas then wires breaks from any cause. In fact, the only
wire breaks I've had were on crimped and NOT soldered connections.
I've never had a crimped AND soldered connection fail. YMMV.

My guess, a crimp would work best on a single wire. Little strands do not
get pinched together enough inside the bundle, and corrosion keeps wicking
through.
I never saw a wire wrap fail, but I never saw them used in poor
environment.
I've crimped really small contacts where soldering would take too long, and
be impossible to prevent wicking. The crimpers also sometimes cost several
hundred dollars. I'll admit, sometimes crimps are better. There is the
other case, often on home appliances. The wires and crimps, and slide on
connectors, get warm, then hotter, then literally burn off. The crimp will
fail as well as turning the slide on contacts, brittle falling apart.

Greg


In a home appliance that has a heating element, you don't use standard
lugs or Faston connectors, you must use the high temperature connectors
on the high temperature wire meant for heating element connections. Even
those can burn off if the connection is not clean and the Faston
connectors and lugs are not tight. The high temp connectors are made of
nickle instead of tin plated copper. ^_^

TDD

On 12/31/2013 12:27 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:51:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:40:37 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:09:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:06:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/28/2013 6:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
This article says soldering is less desirable than crimps for
Anderson Power Pole terminals.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html
I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp. What's your
thoughts?

I have a ratcheting type crimp tool and have used low temperature silver
on crimped connectors if I'm worried about moisture wicking into the
stranded wire plus heat shrink that has the hot melt sticky stuff on the
inside. Regular heat shrink tubing makes a good strain relief on the
wire crimped into a connector because it prevents a sharp 90° bend in
the wire crimped into the connector when it's put under stress. The most
important thing, don't nick the wire when you strip the insulation off
of it. ^_^

The crimp forms an air (moisture) tight seal. Solder doesn't add
anything and will cause wires to break.


Really, that must be why when they bury wires they just crimp them and
call it good......

If the connector is designed to be crimped and buried, solder isn't
going to help. It often will cause problems, though. Use connectors
the way they were designed to be used and you will have fewer
problems. ...but I'm sure you think you know better than the
manufacturer.

You said crimps form a moisture tight seal. They don't. That's why
no one but an idiot would crimp a wire and rely on your claim that
it's suddenly become moisture tight.


A proper crimp does produce what's called a gas tight seal and works
very well under normal circumstances especially if the insulation grip
is properly crimped too. The non-insulated connectors are the ones that
I will crimp and solder if it's needed but I always use a piece of heat
shrink tubing to act as a strain relief to prevent the wire being pulled
at a sharp angle which could break it off. ^_^

TDD

On 12/30/2013 7:56 PM, philo wrote:

Since the bars are a predictable size, a plastic cover
could be snapped on.

OTOH: Stationary batteries AFAIK do not have them...and now that you
mention it, would be a darn good idea.


From what you write, there continues to be
definite need. Perhaps that would be a
retirement income for you, and save the
life of some future tech? Sell thick plastic
snap on covers for battery bank bus bars.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 06:48:12 +0000 (UTC), gregz
wrote:

Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:49:56 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:08:04 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:08:06 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution.

Solder will actually cause more problems than it solves (for properly
crimped connectors). Solder will wick up into multi-strand wire and
cause the wire to break at that point, under flex (work hardening).

That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility.

They don't need to be machines. Hand crimpers work fine for smaller
connectors. The ratcheting type are best.

The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Sure but adding solder doesn't solve anything if the crimp is good.

Putting aside vibration issues, I've always viewed the solder as
insurance against corrosion.

It won't help if the crimp was right to begin with.

No matter how perfect the crimp is it won't keep moisture out of the
joint area. The edges of the metals are exposed, the corrosion starts
there and works it's way back eating away at the metals. Just look at
all the corroded battery cables that are crimped into the battery
clamps, eventually the stuff corrodes away.


have found crimps that were bad due to
corrosion when used in exposed to weather areas. Never found a
problem when they were soldered in such use.

The wire breaks, instead.

I've had far far more failed crimps from corrosion in exposed to
weather areas then wires breaks from any cause. In fact, the only
wire breaks I've had were on crimped and NOT soldered connections.
I've never had a crimped AND soldered connection fail. YMMV.

My guess, a crimp would work best on a single wire. Little strands do not
get pinched together enough inside the bundle, and corrosion keeps wicking
through.
I never saw a wire wrap fail, but I never saw them used in poor
environment.
I've crimped really small contacts where soldering would take too long, and
be impossible to prevent wicking. The crimpers also sometimes cost several
hundred dollars. I'll admit, sometimes crimps are better. There is the
other case, often on home appliances. The wires and crimps, and slide on
connectors, get warm, then hotter, then literally burn off. The crimp will
fail as well as turning the slide on contacts, brittle falling apart.

Greg
Caused by the slide on connector heating, not the crimp.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 23:24:55 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:49:56 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:27:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:08:04 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:27:56 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:08:06 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

This article says soldering is less desirable
than crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.


http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html

I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp.
What's your thoughts?


The way I read the article he's talking about ONLY crimp versus ONLY
solder. Not crimp first then solder, which is what I do if I'm
looking for a belt and suspenders solution.

Solder will actually cause more problems than it solves (for properly
crimped connectors). Solder will wick up into multi-strand wire and
cause the wire to break at that point, under flex (work hardening).

That said, I've read in
the past that a PROPERLY crimped connection does not need to be
soldered, the kind of crimp powerful crimping machines can make in a
manufacturing facility.

They don't need to be machines. Hand crimpers work fine for smaller
connectors. The ratcheting type are best.

The crimps I do at home, even with a decent
hand crimper tool, I don't consider the same quality as a factory
crimp. But many of those home crimps have lasted years and years with
no trouble...

Sure but adding solder doesn't solve anything if the crimp is good.

Putting aside vibration issues, I've always viewed the solder as
insurance against corrosion.

It won't help if the crimp was right to begin with.

No matter how perfect the crimp is it won't keep moisture out of the
joint area. The edges of the metals are exposed, the corrosion starts
there and works it's way back eating away at the metals. Just look at
all the corroded battery cables that are crimped into the battery
clamps, eventually the stuff corrodes away.


have found crimps that were bad due to
corrosion when used in exposed to weather areas. Never found a
problem when they were soldered in such use.

The wire breaks, instead.

I've had far far more failed crimps from corrosion in exposed to
weather areas then wires breaks from any cause. In fact, the only
wire breaks I've had were on crimped and NOT soldered connections.
I've never had a crimped AND soldered connection fail. YMMV.

You're wrong, of course.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 23:27:45 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:51:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:40:37 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:09:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:06:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/28/2013 6:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
This article says soldering is less desirable than crimps for
Anderson Power Pole terminals.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html
I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp. What's your
thoughts?

I have a ratcheting type crimp tool and have used low temperature silver
on crimped connectors if I'm worried about moisture wicking into the
stranded wire plus heat shrink that has the hot melt sticky stuff on the
inside. Regular heat shrink tubing makes a good strain relief on the
wire crimped into a connector because it prevents a sharp 90° bend in
the wire crimped into the connector when it's put under stress. The most
important thing, don't nick the wire when you strip the insulation off
of it. ^_^

The crimp forms an air (moisture) tight seal. Solder doesn't add
anything and will cause wires to break.


Really, that must be why when they bury wires they just crimp them and
call it good......

If the connector is designed to be crimped and buried, solder isn't
going to help. It often will cause problems, though. Use connectors
the way they were designed to be used and you will have fewer
problems. ...but I'm sure you think you know better than the
manufacturer.

You said crimps form a moisture tight seal. They don't. That's why
no one but an idiot would crimp a wire and rely on your claim that
it's suddenly become moisture tight.

As usual, you're wrong.

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 02:29:22 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/31/2013 12:27 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:51:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:40:37 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:09:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:06:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/28/2013 6:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
This article says soldering is less desirable than crimps for
Anderson Power Pole terminals.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html
I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp. What's your
thoughts?

I have a ratcheting type crimp tool and have used low temperature silver
on crimped connectors if I'm worried about moisture wicking into the
stranded wire plus heat shrink that has the hot melt sticky stuff on the
inside. Regular heat shrink tubing makes a good strain relief on the
wire crimped into a connector because it prevents a sharp 90° bend in
the wire crimped into the connector when it's put under stress. The most
important thing, don't nick the wire when you strip the insulation off
of it. ^_^

The crimp forms an air (moisture) tight seal. Solder doesn't add
anything and will cause wires to break.


Really, that must be why when they bury wires they just crimp them and
call it good......

If the connector is designed to be crimped and buried, solder isn't
going to help. It often will cause problems, though. Use connectors
the way they were designed to be used and you will have fewer
problems. ...but I'm sure you think you know better than the
manufacturer.

You said crimps form a moisture tight seal. They don't. That's why
no one but an idiot would crimp a wire and rely on your claim that
it's suddenly become moisture tight.


A proper crimp does produce what's called a gas tight seal and works
very well under normal circumstances especially if the insulation grip
is properly crimped too. The non-insulated connectors are the ones that
I will crimp and solder if it's needed but I always use a piece of heat
shrink tubing to act as a strain relief to prevent the wire being pulled
at a sharp angle which could break it off. ^_^

The only time I solder a crimp connector is if I don't have the proper
crimping tool or if I'm using the improper wire size for the connector
or crimper. If I have the proper tools and connectors, never.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 23:41:05 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 23:19:40 -0700, gregz wrote:

...snip...
In the mean time, I'll fix bad crimps by soldering.

Greg

Didn't know we were comparing bad crimps to bad soldering. Yes, as my
example showed, soldering works very well ...for a while.

+1

On 12/31/2013 1:46 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 02:29:22 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/31/2013 12:27 AM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:51:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:40:37 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:09:25 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:06:35 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 12/28/2013 6:08 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
This article says soldering is less desirable than
crimps for Anderson Power Pole terminals.

http://www.survivalblog.com/2013/12/...ectronics.html


I was taught that soldering is far better than crimp. What's your
thoughts?

I have a ratcheting type crimp tool and have used low
temperature silver on crimped connectors if I'm worried
about moisture wicking into the stranded wire plus heat
shrink that has the hot melt sticky stuff on the inside.
Regular heat shrink tubing makes a good strain relief on
the wire crimped into a connector because it prevents a
sharp 90° bend in the wire crimped into the connector
when it's put under stress. The most important thing,
don't nick the wire when you strip the insulation off of
it. ^_^

The crimp forms an air (moisture) tight seal. Solder
doesn't add anything and will cause wires to break.

Really, that must be why when they bury wires they just
crimp them and call it good......

If the connector is designed to be crimped and buried, solder
isn't going to help. It often will cause problems, though. Use
connectors the way they were designed to be used and you will
have fewer problems. ...but I'm sure you think you know better
than the manufacturer.

You said crimps form a moisture tight seal. They don't. That's
why no one but an idiot would crimp a wire and rely on your
claim that it's suddenly become moisture tight.


A proper crimp does produce what's called a gas tight seal and
works very well under normal circumstances especially if the
insulation grip is properly crimped too. The non-insulated
connectors are the ones that I will crimp and solder if it's
needed but I always use a piece of heat shrink tubing to act as a
strain relief to prevent the wire being pulled at a sharp angle
which could break it off. ^_^

The only time I solder a crimp connector is if I don't have the
proper crimping tool or if I'm using the improper wire size for the
connector or crimper. If I have the proper tools and connectors,
never.

I rarely solder a crimped connector but will use heat shrink tubing on
any of them which will be put under a lot of stress unless it's a high
temperature nickel connector used on a heating element then I will use
fiberglass tubing. A big mistake made by a lot of folks is to use a
regular connector for a high temp connection. ^_^

TDD