I need to replace a programmable light switch that was fried when a
contractor plugged a compresser into the outlet it controls. I am trying
to decide between these two Honeywell (Aube) programmable sunset/sunrise
switches.

The 540A:

http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...imer-white.htm

and the 740B:

http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...imer-white.htm

The 540A is similar to the one I've had for 10 years that was fried:

http://www.aubetech.com/products/pro...=75&noLangue=2

It is designed to replace a standard toggle switch. The problem is that
it can only handle 500 watts, which is why it was fried by the
compressor motor.

It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it
be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED
candelabras?

The newer model above (540A) has a little safety switch on the front to
cut power to the switch while changing light bulbs to prevent a short.

The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?

On 12/09/2013 10:51 AM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
I need to replace a programmable light switch that was fried when a
contractor plugged a compresser into the outlet it controls. I am trying
to decide between these two Honeywell (Aube) programmable sunset/sunrise
switches.

The 540A:

http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...imer-white.htm

and the 740B:

http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...imer-white.htm

The 540A is similar to the one I've had for 10 years that was fried:

http://www.aubetech.com/products/pro...=75&noLangue=2

It is designed to replace a standard toggle switch. The problem is that
it can only handle 500 watts, which is why it was fried by the
compressor motor.

It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it
be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED
candelabras?

If the load is under 40 watts, the unit will not get damaged, it simply
may not work.


The newer model above (540A) has a little safety switch on the front to
cut power to the switch while changing light bulbs to prevent a short.

The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.

"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message
...
compressor motor.

It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it
be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED
candelabras?



It needs a minimal load. It will not be dammaged, but may not work. It is
using the load on the end to get a sort of 'fake neutral'. The switch is
getting the incomming power from the hot wire. As there is no neutral in
the box, there must be a return path so a small ammount of return power goes
through the load. Not enough power will go through it to light a 40 watt
light bulb, but some power is. Probably enough to give you a shock if you
touch the load side of the switch even if the light is 'off '.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:15:40 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 12/09/2013 10:51 AM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
I need to replace a programmable light switch that was fried when a
contractor plugged a compresser into the outlet it controls. I am trying
to decide between these two Honeywell (Aube) programmable sunset/sunrise
switches.

The 540A:

http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...imer-white.htm

and the 740B:

http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...imer-white.htm

The 540A is similar to the one I've had for 10 years that was fried:

http://www.aubetech.com/products/pro...=75&noLangue=2

It is designed to replace a standard toggle switch. The problem is that
it can only handle 500 watts, which is why it was fried by the
compressor motor.

It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it
be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED
candelabras?

If the load is under 40 watts, the unit will not get damaged, it simply
may not work.


The newer model above (540A) has a little safety switch on the front to
cut power to the switch while changing light bulbs to prevent a short.

The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.

Well, maybe not *special* wiring, but it does require a neutral, which I
do not have in this old house. So my question is whether there is any
way to use the 740A, which says it requires a neutral, in a receptacle
that does not have a neutral. I assume the answer is "no", but I thought
I'd ask.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:34:40 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message
.. .
compressor motor.

It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it
be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED
candelabras?



It needs a minimal load. It will not be dammaged, but may not work. It is
using the load on the end to get a sort of 'fake neutral'. The switch is
getting the incomming power from the hot wire. As there is no neutral in
the box, there must be a return path so a small ammount of return power goes
through the load. Not enough power will go through it to light a 40 watt
light bulb, but some power is. Probably enough to give you a shock if you
touch the load side of the switch even if the light is 'off '.

OK. Thanks.

The other switch (the 740B) requires a neutral line, which I don't have
in the wiring in this old house. I guess there is no way to use that
switch in my situation, right?

"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message
The other switch (the 740B) requires a neutral line, which I don't have
in the wiring in this old house. I guess there is no way to use that
switch in my situation, right?

Not unless you can run a neutral wire to the switch.

snip



The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.



Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".

Philo, the 740B replaces a standard light switch. It needs a neutral.

So if the Switch box onlys has 3 wires as Jennifer described ( the
white is a switched "black", not a neutral), then a real neutral would
need to be pulled in.

On Monday, December 9, 2013 2:13:51 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:34:40 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:





"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message

.. .

compressor motor.



It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it

be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED

candelabras?







It needs a minimal load. It will not be dammaged, but may not work. It is

using the load on the end to get a sort of 'fake neutral'. The switch is

getting the incomming power from the hot wire. As there is no neutral in

the box, there must be a return path so a small ammount of return power goes

through the load. Not enough power will go through it to light a 40 watt

light bulb, but some power is. Probably enough to give you a shock if you

touch the load side of the switch even if the light is 'off '.



OK. Thanks.



The other switch (the 740B) requires a neutral line, which I don't have

in the wiring in this old house. I guess there is no way to use that

switch in my situation, right?

Nope. This is why some of the newer code requires neutrals at switch boxes.

How far is the outlet from the switch. If you can get a piece of 14/3 between the two you can add a neutral.

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:35:56 -0500, Retired wrote:

snip



The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.



Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".

Or "junction box"? Or is that a closed box?

What's a receptacle? Or did I make that word up?

Philo, the 740B replaces a standard light switch. It needs a neutral.

So if the Switch box onlys has 3 wires as Jennifer described ( the
white is a switched "black", not a neutral), then a real neutral would
need to be pulled in.

Thanks

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:21:34 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message
The other switch (the 740B) requires a neutral line, which I don't have
in the wiring in this old house. I guess there is no way to use that
switch in my situation, right?

Not unless you can run a neutral wire to the switch.

OK, thanks.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:36:37 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2013 2:13:51 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:34:40 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:





"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message

.. .

compressor motor.



It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it

be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED

candelabras?







It needs a minimal load. It will not be dammaged, but may not work. It is

using the load on the end to get a sort of 'fake neutral'. The switch is

getting the incomming power from the hot wire. As there is no neutral in

the box, there must be a return path so a small ammount of return power goes

through the load. Not enough power will go through it to light a 40 watt

light bulb, but some power is. Probably enough to give you a shock if you

touch the load side of the switch even if the light is 'off '.



OK. Thanks.



The other switch (the 740B) requires a neutral line, which I don't have

in the wiring in this old house. I guess there is no way to use that

switch in my situation, right?

Nope. This is why some of the newer code requires neutrals at switch boxes.

How far is the outlet from the switch. If you can get a piece of 14/3 between the two you can add a neutral.

The outlet is only about 10 feet from the switch box as the crow flies,
but it goes under the porch or over the front door. The existing wiring
is from the 1940s, at least some of it. One of the lines coming into
that switch box is fabric covered. I think fishing a line would be
impossible, at least for me.

But doesn't the neutral have to go back to the circuit breaker? That's
clear at the back of the house.

On 12/09/2013 02:04 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:35:56 -0500, Retired wrote:

snip



The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.



Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".

Or "junction box"? Or is that a closed box?

What's a receptacle? Or did I make that word up?

Philo, the 740B replaces a standard light switch. It needs a neutral.

So if the Switch box onlys has 3 wires as Jennifer described ( the
white is a switched "black", not a neutral), then a real neutral would
need to be pulled in.

Thanks




OK sorry, I did not take a close look...I thought it was a plug-in device.


I guess I'd Google for a programmable switch with neutral not required

On Monday, December 9, 2013 3:08:40 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:36:37 -0800 (PST), jamesgang

wrote:



On Monday, December 9, 2013 2:13:51 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:34:40 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"



wrote:











"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message



.. .



compressor motor.







It also requires a minimum load of 40 watts. Why is that? Why would it



be damaged if the load were just a 25 watt bulb or a few 5 watt LED



candelabras?















It needs a minimal load. It will not be dammaged, but may not work. It is



using the load on the end to get a sort of 'fake neutral'. The switch is



getting the incomming power from the hot wire. As there is no neutral in



the box, there must be a return path so a small ammount of return power goes



through the load. Not enough power will go through it to light a 40 watt



light bulb, but some power is. Probably enough to give you a shock if you



touch the load side of the switch even if the light is 'off '.







OK. Thanks.







The other switch (the 740B) requires a neutral line, which I don't have



in the wiring in this old house. I guess there is no way to use that



switch in my situation, right?



Nope. This is why some of the newer code requires neutrals at switch boxes.



How far is the outlet from the switch. If you can get a piece of 14/3 between the two you can add a neutral.



The outlet is only about 10 feet from the switch box as the crow flies,

but it goes under the porch or over the front door. The existing wiring

is from the 1940s, at least some of it. One of the lines coming into

that switch box is fabric covered. I think fishing a line would be

impossible, at least for me.



But doesn't the neutral have to go back to the circuit breaker? That's

clear at the back of the house.

Nope, the neutral can come from the outlet since it's the same circuit.

You could also run power from a closer source if you have an outlet closer to the switch. Run a new piece of 14/2 power from a nearby outlet to the switch box. Then use the existing 14/2 line that is already going to the switched outlet as new switched power to it. Disconnect and cut back the original power line in the switched outlet but leave the end in the box.

On 12/9/13, 3:04 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:35:56 -0500, Retired wrote:

snip



The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.



Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".

Generically it is a "switch box", like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-517-2-.../dp/B000OQDGLU

but can contain a "receptacle", which is otherwise called an "outlet"


Or "junction box"? Or is that a closed box?


Yes, Junction boxes" are just that, where just cables are spliced
together. Like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Allied-Moulded.../dp/B00CR90ONK

What's a receptacle? Or did I make that word up?


Here is a receptacle:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-M12-05.../dp/B00004YUK9

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:49:49 -0500, Retired wrote:

On 12/9/13, 3:04 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:35:56 -0500, Retired wrote:

snip



The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a
neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three
wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the
ground (bare wire).

Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?


It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.



Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".

Generically it is a "switch box", like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-517-2-.../dp/B000OQDGLU

but can contain a "receptacle", which is otherwise called an "outlet"


Or "junction box"? Or is that a closed box?


Yes, Junction boxes" are just that, where just cables are spliced
together. Like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Allied-Moulded.../dp/B00CR90ONK

What's a receptacle? Or did I make that word up?


Here is a receptacle:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-M12-05.../dp/B00004YUK9

Thanks for the tutorial. Amateurs are notoriously lax with terminology.
:-) I be more careful in the future. I got "short" and "open" mixed up a
few weeks ago and I actually know the difference there.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:59:32 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2013 3:08:40 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:36:37 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
How far is the outlet from the switch. If you can get a piece of 14/3 between the two you can add a neutral.

The outlet is only about 10 feet from the switch box as the crow flies,
but it goes under the porch or over the front door. The existing wiring
is from the 1940s, at least some of it. One of the lines coming into
that switch box is fabric covered. I think fishing a line would be
impossible, at least for me.

But doesn't the neutral have to go back to the circuit breaker? That's
clear at the back of the house.

Nope, the neutral can come from the outlet since it's the same circuit.

You could also run power from a closer source if you have an outlet closer to the switch. Run a new piece of 14/2 power from a nearby outlet to the switch box. Then use the existing 14/2 line that is already going to the switched outlet as new switched power to it. Disconnect and cut back the original power line in the switched outlet but leave the end in the box.

There is an outlet about 3 feet away on the other side of the wall, but
it's on a different circuit breaker. In any case, me trying to follow
those instructions would be a surefire recipe for setting either my hair
of the house on fire. I'll stick with the 550 switch that doesn't
require a neutral and remember to keep anyone from plugging in a
compressor. If I need the other switch, I'll hire an electrician.

Thanks for the help.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 22:04:44 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Jennifer Murphy wrote:
I need to replace a programmable light switch that was fried when a
contractor plugged a compresser into the outlet it controls.

Intermatic makes a few in-wall timers that don't need a neutral and can
switch up to 15 amps tungsten. I think these also have no minimum load.
Looking at their Web site, the EI600 or ST01 may do what you want.
http://intermatic.com/en/Products/Ti...ic_Timers.aspx

These tend to have batteries in them, which is why they can work without
a netural - they don't need to draw power through the load. I had an
older model Intermatic (circa 2000) that needed one AAA battery; a fresh
alkaline would last about a year. The newer ones may have rechargeables.

Thanks for that link. There are 4 that support sunset/sunrise
programmability. They all have batteries, I think, and one has a
rechargeable.

These look similar to the old Aube Ti034, which is the one I had that
got cooked. I think the new Honeywell 550A has a much nicer UI. There's
no flip up cover. Just a display and three buttons: left, right, and
select. The left/right buttons display the sunset/sunrise times for
today when not in menu mode.

Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:59:32 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2013 3:08:40 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:36:37 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
How far is the outlet from the switch. If you can get a piece of 14/3 between the two you can add a neutral.
The outlet is only about 10 feet from the switch box as the crow flies,
but it goes under the porch or over the front door. The existing wiring
is from the 1940s, at least some of it. One of the lines coming into
that switch box is fabric covered. I think fishing a line would be
impossible, at least for me.

But doesn't the neutral have to go back to the circuit breaker? That's
clear at the back of the house.
Nope, the neutral can come from the outlet since it's the same circuit.

You could also run power from a closer source if you have an outlet closer to the switch. Run a new piece of 14/2 power from a nearby outlet to the switch box. Then use the existing 14/2 line that is already going to the switched outlet as new switched power to it. Disconnect and cut back the original power line in the switched outlet but leave the end in the box.


There is an outlet about 3 feet away on the other side of the wall, but
it's on a different circuit breaker. In any case, me trying to follow
those instructions would be a surefire recipe for setting either my hair
of the house on fire. I'll stick with the 550 switch that doesn't
require a neutral and remember to keep anyone from plugging in a
compressor. If I need the other switch, I'll hire an electrician.

Thanks for the help.

How about a - programmable plug in light switch - ?
Place the above between the dashes into Google search.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On 12/9/2013 2:11 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

Well, maybe not *special* wiring, but it does require a neutral, which I
do not have in this old house. So my question is whether there is any
way to use the 740A, which says it requires a neutral, in a receptacle
that does not have a neutral. I assume the answer is "no", but I thought
I'd ask.


So you have hot and ground, but no neutral?
Man, that's some kind of messed up house.
Every house I've seen had hot and neutral,
but maybe not a ground.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/9/2013 3:04 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle
and does not require any special wiring.



Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".

Or "junction box"? Or is that a closed box?

What's a receptacle? Or did I make that word up?

Picture of receptacle:
http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH..._OUTLET_02.JPG




--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/9/2013 3:08 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

The outlet is only about 10 feet from the switch box as the crow flies,
but it goes under the porch or over the front door. The existing wiring
is from the 1940s, at least some of it. One of the lines coming into
that switch box is fabric covered. I think fishing a line would be
impossible, at least for me.

But doesn't the neutral have to go back to the circuit breaker? That's
clear at the back of the house.


I'm also not great at pulling wires. However, I
think you'll find one of the cloth wraps is hot,
the other is neutral. Least, that's what I've
always found.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/9/2013 4:56 PM, philo wrote:
On 12/09/2013 02:04 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
Philo, the 740B replaces a standard light switch. It needs a neutral.

So if the Switch box onlys has 3 wires as Jennifer described ( the
white is a switched "black", not a neutral), then a real neutral would
need to be pulled in.

Thanks

OK sorry, I did not take a close look...I thought it was a plug-in device.


I guess I'd Google for a programmable switch with neutral not required

How would run any 110VAC or 120 VAC device,
and not have a neutral? Don't think that's
ever been done.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/9/2013 1:34 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:


It needs a minimal load. It will not be dammaged, but may not work. It is
using the load on the end to get a sort of 'fake neutral'. The switch is
getting the incomming power from the hot wire. As there is no neutral in
the box, there must be a return path so a small ammount of return power goes
through the load. Not enough power will go through it to light a 40 watt
light bulb, but some power is. Probably enough to give you a shock if you
touch the load side of the switch even if the light is 'off '.

So the programmable switch uses the load
as a neutral for the timer circuit?
That's interesting.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/9/13, 6:58 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/9/2013 2:11 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

Well, maybe not *special* wiring, but it does require a neutral,
which I
do not have in this old house. So my question is whether there is any
way to use the 740A, which says it requires a neutral, in a receptacle
that does not have a neutral. I assume the answer is "no", but I
thought
I'd ask.


So you have hot and ground, but no neutral?
Man, that's some kind of messed up house.
Every house I've seen had hot and neutral,
but maybe not a ground.

Chris, Chris,

The switch box has no neutral available. Not the house.
See this diagram
http://www.photocar.org/wiring-diagr...t-switch-34038

On 12/9/2013 7:12 PM, Retired wrote:
So you have hot and ground, but no neutral?
Man, that's some kind of messed up house.
Every house I've seen had hot and neutral,
but maybe not a ground.

Chris, Chris,

The switch box has no neutral available. Not the house.
See this diagram
http://www.photocar.org/wiring-diagr...t-switch-34038

Thanks, that sure makes things a LOT more
clear. The diagram is a big, big help.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

So the programmable switch uses the load
as a neutral for the timer circuit?
That's interesting.


I put a quote mark around the 'fake neutral' to try and indicate it is not a
true neutral. The hot wire with 120 volts on it goes to the switch. The
wire leaving the switch goes through the load and back to the neutral. That
is the reason for the minimum load. With no load , there is no return for
the power and the switch will not work.

When the load is powered up there are a couple of volts dropped across the
switch to keep it powered up.

On 12/09/2013 06:07 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 12/9/2013 4:56 PM, philo wrote:
On 12/09/2013 02:04 PM, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
Philo, the 740B replaces a standard light switch. It needs a neutral.

So if the Switch box onlys has 3 wires as Jennifer described ( the
white is a switched "black", not a neutral), then a real neutral would
need to be pulled in.

Thanks

OK sorry, I did not take a close look...I thought it was a plug-in
device.


I guess I'd Google for a programmable switch with neutral not required

How would run any 110VAC or 120 VAC device,
and not have a neutral? Don't think that's
ever been done.



In a switch box there would not normally be a neutral wire...
there would be a (black) "hot" and the other wire is the one going to
the bulb.

It would be against electrical code to use the ground wire (green) as a
return.

On 12/9/2013 8:58 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

So the programmable switch uses the load
as a neutral for the timer circuit?
That's interesting.


I put a quote mark around the 'fake neutral' to try and indicate it is not a
true neutral. The hot wire with 120 volts on it goes to the switch. The
wire leaving the switch goes through the load and back to the neutral. That
is the reason for the minimum load. With no load , there is no return for
the power and the switch will not work.

When the load is powered up there are a couple of volts dropped across the
switch to keep it powered up.


Volt dropping: "Hey, did you know that I'm distantly
related to DC? You look great in that insulation.
Black is really your color. You're hot. Love the way
you keep your split ends under a wire nut like that.
Millie Amp says hi. She's got great potential. You
do know that Edison and I were best friends?"

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Monday, December 9, 2013 3:04:19 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:35:56 -0500, Retired wrote:



snip







The 740B has a limit of 1800 watts and no minimum, but it requires a

neutral line. The receptacle where I want to put it has just three

wires, which I think are the line (hot), the load (lights), and the

ground (bare wire).



Is there any way to use the 740B in that receptacle?





It looks like it just connects to a standard three prong receptacle

and does not require any special wiring.







Jennifer, you say "receptacle", but you mean "switch box".



Or "junction box"? Or is that a closed box?



What's a receptacle? Or did I make that word up?



It's an outlet that you plug things into.





Philo, the 740B replaces a standard light switch. It needs a neutral.



So if the Switch box onlys has 3 wires as Jennifer described ( the

white is a switched "black", not a neutral), then a real neutral would

need to be pulled in.



Thanks

If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant
way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is
that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That
could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by
using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch
has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load
for a small current to flow through and power the switch even
when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows
through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but
so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant
way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is
that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That
could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by
using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch
has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load
for a small current to flow through and power the switch even
when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows
through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but
so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.

The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.

Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use? That seems like a lot
for a small electronic circuit. It does have an LED screen that could be
on Hi all the time depending on user settings. I have mine set to dim
after 8 seconds.

With a regular toggle switch, off is an open circuit (no current
flowing), right?

"Jennifer Murphy" wrote in message The minimum it
said it needed was actually 40W.

Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use? That seems like a lot
for a small electronic circuit. It does have an LED screen that could be
on Hi all the time depending on user settings. I have mine set to dim
after 8 seconds.

With a regular toggle switch, off is an open circuit (no current
flowing), right?

With a regular on/off switch, no current will flow when off if it is
operating properly.

The programmable switch has to have a connection through the load back to
the neutral of the AC power. It will take a certain ammount of a load to
provide that. Some loads like the new CFL or LED bulbs may not work as
loades either.

The programmable switch doen not draw 40 watts , but much less maybe a watt
or two or even less.
If it drew much power at all and you put an old filiment light bulb as the
load, it would glow maybe a dull red. I doubt you would see anykind of glow
at all with the switch in the off position even though a small ammount of
current will be flowing.

A 60 watt bulbs takes about 1/2 of an amp or 500 ma. On dry skin you can
feel about 1 or 2 ma. Get up to around 50 ma and it can be painful. Much
more and maybe death.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant

way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is

that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That

could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by

using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch

has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load

for a small current to flow through and power the switch even

when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows

through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but

so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.



The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.



Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?


No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew
40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no
neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in
series with whatever the load is. With too small of a
load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current
that it needs.



That seems like a lot

for a small electronic circuit. It does have an LED screen that could be

on Hi all the time depending on user settings. I have mine set to dim

after 8 seconds.



With a regular toggle switch, off is an open circuit (no current

flowing), right?

Yes. And with one of those other prog switches that use a
neutral, the tiny current to power the switch electronics is
flowing from the hot, throught the switch, to the neutral.
So, with those the line going to the light is open too.
With the switches that don't require a neutral, with the
switch off, you still have that tiny current flowing from
hot, through switch, through load, then to neutral at the load.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant
way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is
that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That
could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by
using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch
has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load
for a small current to flow through and power the switch even
when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows
through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but
so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.

The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.

Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?

No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew
40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no
neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in
series with whatever the load is. With too small of a
load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current
that it needs.

If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it
say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough
power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a
watt.

I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant

way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is

that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That

could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by

using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch

has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load

for a small current to flow through and power the switch even

when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows

through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but

so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.



The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.



Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?



No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew

40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no

neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in

series with whatever the load is. With too small of a

load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current

that it needs.



If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it

say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough

power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a

watt.



I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.

The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.

jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant

way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is

that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That

could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by

using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch

has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load

for a small current to flow through and power the switch even

when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows

through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but

so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.



The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.



Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?



No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew

40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no

neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in

series with whatever the load is. With too small of a

load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current

that it needs.



If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it

say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough

power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a

watt.



I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.

The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.

Hi,
Sounds like it is SS type switch like SCR. Without proper load creating
enough current flow the gate can't trigger to make the
switching device close(conduct. Think in terms of electronics, not
electric/mechanical. Read up on things like SCR, TRIAC, DIAC, DIODES,
opto electric Darlington switch, etc. On the other hand some of those
kinda switches always have residual current flow even if off state.
Use that switch on CFL light, you will see it just dims when turned off.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:55:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgang wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:



On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "







wrote:















If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant



way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is



that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That



could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by



using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch



has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load



for a small current to flow through and power the switch even



when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows



through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but



so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.







The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.







Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?







No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew



40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no



neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in



series with whatever the load is. With too small of a



load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current



that it needs.







If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it



say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough



power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a



watt.







I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.



The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.



Hi,

Sounds like it is SS type switch like SCR. Without proper load creating

enough current flow the gate can't trigger to make the

switching device close(conduct. Think in terms of electronics, not

electric/mechanical. Read up on things like SCR, TRIAC, DIAC, DIODES,

opto electric Darlington switch, etc. On the other hand some of those

kinda switches always have residual current flow even if off state.

Use that switch on CFL light, you will see it just dims when turned off.

That's not the issue.

The timer uses the line through the load to operate it's clock because it has no neutral. If the load is missing or not enough the clock doesn't work properly. 5 watts is plenty of load for a scr or triac.

jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:55:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgang wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:



On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "







wrote:















If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant



way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is



that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That



could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by



using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch



has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load



for a small current to flow through and power the switch even



when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows



through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but



so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.







The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.







Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?







No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew



40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no



neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in



series with whatever the load is. With too small of a



load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current



that it needs.







If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it



say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough



power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a



watt.







I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.



The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.



Hi,

Sounds like it is SS type switch like SCR. Without proper load creating

enough current flow the gate can't trigger to make the

switching device close(conduct. Think in terms of electronics, not

electric/mechanical. Read up on things like SCR, TRIAC, DIAC, DIODES,

opto electric Darlington switch, etc. On the other hand some of those

kinda switches always have residual current flow even if off state.

Use that switch on CFL light, you will see it just dims when turned off.

That's not the issue.

The timer uses the line through the load to operate it's clock because it has no neutral. If the load is missing or not enough the clock doesn't work properly. 5 watts is plenty of load for a scr or triac.

Hmm,
So, I = P/E 5/120~~ 42 mA. Not much of a current. If there is no
neutral Is it open circuit? I don't get it.
(switch)(load) where does this line end up? No neutral?

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:38:00 PM UTC-5, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:



On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "







wrote:















If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant



way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is



that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That



could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by



using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch



has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load



for a small current to flow through and power the switch even



when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows



through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but



so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.







The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.







Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?







No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew



40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no



neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in



series with whatever the load is. With too small of a



load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current



that it needs.







If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it



say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough



power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a



watt.







I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.



The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.

+1

Another simpler way of looking at it is the thermostat needs a path to
a neutral. A 1000W load is a low resistance and closer to being directly
connected to a neutral than a 5W load.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:54:21 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgang wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:55:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:

jamesgang wrote:



On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:



On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "







wrote:















On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:







On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "















wrote:































If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant







way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is







that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That







could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by







using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch







has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load







for a small current to flow through and power the switch even







when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows







through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but







so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.















The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.















Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?















No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew







40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no







neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in







series with whatever the load is. With too small of a







load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current







that it needs.















If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it







say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough







power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a







watt.















I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.







The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.







Hi,



Sounds like it is SS type switch like SCR. Without proper load creating



enough current flow the gate can't trigger to make the



switching device close(conduct. Think in terms of electronics, not



electric/mechanical. Read up on things like SCR, TRIAC, DIAC, DIODES,



opto electric Darlington switch, etc. On the other hand some of those



kinda switches always have residual current flow even if off state.



Use that switch on CFL light, you will see it just dims when turned off.



That's not the issue.



The timer uses the line through the load to operate it's clock because it has no neutral. If the load is missing or not enough the clock doesn't work properly. 5 watts is plenty of load for a scr or triac.



Hmm,

So, I = P/E 5/120~~ 42 mA. Not much of a current.

It's plenty of current to run the clock/timer/lcd electronics in the
programmable timer. How much current does it take to run
a digital watch?




If there is no

neutral Is it open circuit? I don't get it.

(switch)(load) where does this line end up? No neutral?

When the switch is off, it relies on the path through the load,
to the neutral, to complete the circuit. That's why the load has
to be at least 40W, or whatever the number was.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:54:21 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:55:12 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
jamesgang wrote:

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:24:28 PM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:54:20 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:







On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:30:17 AM UTC-5, Jennifer Murphy wrote:



On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:45:31 -0800 (PST), "







wrote:















If the box has no neutral, then there is no code compliant



way to make the switch that requires it work. The issue is



that a programmable switch needs to be powered somehow. That



could be by a battery, through the hot and neutral, or by



using the load circuit. The latter is why the other switch



has a minimum load of 25W. Without some kind of minimal load



for a small current to flow through and power the switch even



when it's off, it would have no power. That small current flows



through the bulb when off and it's enough for thw switch, but



so tiny it won't light the bulb at all.







The minimum it said it needed was actually 40W.







Does the switch really draw 40W for its own use?







No, it draws negligible amount of power. If it drew



40W the box would over heat. It's just that with no



neutral, the switch winds up getting it's power in



series with whatever the load is. With too small of a



load, the switch can't get the necessary voltage/current



that it needs.







If the switch obnly needs a fraction of a watt to operate, why does it



say that the load must be at least 40W? Why couldn't it get ebnough



power with a 5W bulb as the load. 5W is much larger than a fraction of a



watt.







I should have paid closer attention in freshman physics.



The switch is in series with the load, in this case a light bulb. So if you only have a 5 watt bulb the current flow would be too low to generate the needed voltage at the switch. Read about resistors in series if you are really interested in the physics and consider one of the resistors the switch and the other, the light bulb.



Hi,

Sounds like it is SS type switch like SCR. Without proper load creating

enough current flow the gate can't trigger to make the

switching device close(conduct. Think in terms of electronics, not

electric/mechanical. Read up on things like SCR, TRIAC, DIAC, DIODES,

opto electric Darlington switch, etc. On the other hand some of those

kinda switches always have residual current flow even if off state.

Use that switch on CFL light, you will see it just dims when turned off.

That's not the issue.

The timer uses the line through the load to operate it's clock because it has no neutral. If the load is missing or not enough the clock doesn't work properly. 5 watts is plenty of load for a scr or triac.

Hmm,
So, I = P/E 5/120~~ 42 mA. Not much of a current.

That's a lot of current for some simple electronics.

If there is no neutral Is it open circuit?

No, the return is through the light bulb.

I don't get it. (switch)(load) where does this line end up?

(hot)black wire(switch)blackwire(load)whitewire(r eturn)

No neutral?

It's on the other side of the load. There is always current through
the load. When changing light bulbs, be careful with these because
the lamp is still energized with it turned off.

X10 switches work this way because there is no guarantee that there
will be a neutral in the box. Insteon devices don't and require a
neutral to operate.