On Apr 17, 5:18*pm, Harry Johnson wrote:
On 4/17/2012 4:09 PM, Paul Drahn wrote:

While discussing the problem with the electrician, he told me a secret:

The old mechanical meter only read the power usage from one leg of the
240 volt line. Power usage at 120 volts on the other leg got by free. In
addition, he said electricians would sometimes swap the metered legs so
the excess usage of 120 volt appliances would not be read by the meter.
This is why some people are able to use the 120 volt space heaters in
certain rooms of their house with no increase in electrical usage/bill.

Pssssssst! Hey Paul! I got a bridge I'll sell ya. Interested?

Yeah, that part didn't sound right to me either. Not sure if he's
saying
it was that way for the one particular meter that might be broken?
But by saying electricians would swap the legs, it seems to imply that
all the similar meters were only capable of recording power on one
leg,
which doesn't make sense. There are plenty of folks out there who
would quickly take advantage of that and the utility would be giving
away energy. Seems very odd.

On 4/17/2012 5:48 AM, wrote:




And further, that a 2 (or more) tier rate structure can be imposed based
on the quantity of KWH that an individual customer uses per month -
without the utility needing to know the TOU of that electricity.

Yes, they can and some are. But personally, I'd much rather
have the meter that bills me for what I actually use and how it
interacts with their system instead of some socialist share
the pain scheme.

My utility has a tiered rate structure that costs me more if I use more.
They also offer time-of-day with a monthly service fee and a rate structure
that won't pay back the service fee.

There's a simple fix, if they'd just do it.

Switch EVERYBODY to TOD metering. Maybe off-peak costs less per
kwh...maybe not.
But ALL juice consumed off peak would be charged at the first tier
rate. That would be subtracted from the total to figure the tiers
on the peak load.

Nobody would pay more under this plan. It should get zero opposition.

After the appropriate honeymoon period, the utility could get back
to
the original plan of raising rates as fast as the utility commission
will permit. And they can skew the TOD rates at will to incentivise
the shifting of load to maximize their profit.

Everybody wins...

HeyBub wrote:
Duesenberg wrote:
However I was thinking more in line with the wide availability of
large SUVS, luxury V8 automobiles with 400 HP, and households that
buy a flat panel tv every 3 years, disposing of the old one.

Was also thinking of pollution and water cleanup costs, air quality,
people's health etc.

There is a price for cheap energy that can't be measured on a monthly
bill.

Interestingly, those countries that have an abundance of large SUVs, V8
automobiles, 3-year replacements on their flat-panel tvs, and eat a lot of
TV dinners, are immeasurably "cleaner," with healthier people, than those
countries that have no large SUVs, V8 automobiles, or flat-panel TVs.



It's the vitamins in the TV dinners. I haven't had scurvy in years.

Paul Drahn wrote:
On 4/15/2012 8:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most importantly,
health ramifications. Thank You.
First, let me say my electronic assembly service company built several
thousand printed circuit boards a few years ago that were used in a
smart meter demonstration in Tacoma, WA. I can assure everyone there is
no capability in any so-called smart meter to remotely shut off your
electricity. In Oregon, that would in fact be illegal. To disconnect a
customer's power, a service person must first determine there is no
medical reason for service to be uninterrupted at that location. then
they can pull the meter.

Second, I own an old farm house, started in 1924, that I had converted
to heat pump with electric furnace back up. This entailed replacing the
pole transformer and all to wiring to and including the first breaker box.

The old mechanical meter had been mounted decades ago and had to have
the stainless locking ring ripped off to remove the meter. A new
smart-meter was installed as part of the new wiring.

Due to not understanding the new programmable thermostat, the renter
experienced enormous power bills. The power company insisted the meter
was reading correctly and read the meter remotely from Salt Lake City
during tests with the tenant. They even sent a service person to remove
and physically test the meter.

Finally I was at my wits end and got the electrician to meet me at the
house. He used his clamp-on meter to check his wiring and all was ok. We
discovered the problem was the thermostat would kick in the backup
heating anytime there was a 2 degree difference in temperature. The
thermostat was set to 65 at night and 72 during the day. When set to
constant 72, no backup ever came on. Problem solved!

While discussing the problem with the electrician, he told me a secret:

The old mechanical meter only read the power usage from one leg of the
240 volt line. Power usage at 120 volts on the other leg got by free. In
addition, he said electricians would sometimes swap the metered legs so
the excess usage of 120 volt appliances would not be read by the meter.
This is why some people are able to use the 120 volt space heaters in
certain rooms of their house with no increase in electrical usage/bill.

The new smart meter actually measures the power usage in both legs and
determines the actual total power being used. This is why some customers
see a big increase in their electric bill when the old mechanical meter
is replaced with a smart-meter.

The meter reader uses a hand held transceiver to interrogate the smart
meter. That is the only time the meter will ever transmit on it's
VHF/UHF frequency.

When the meter is remotely read, as mine was, a very low frequency is
used, somewhere in the 300-400 KHz area. The power levels and
frequencies are so low they could never cause medical problems. If they
did, your standard broadcast stations would not be useable.

I hope this story helps you understand a little more about electric
meters. It will probably stir up more criticism, as well.

Paul in Central Oregon

My old water meter was kinda like that, it only measured cold water
not hot. The new meter measures them both and my water bill went up.

Paul Drahn wrote:
On 4/15/2012 8:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most
importantly, health ramifications. Thank You.
First, let me say my electronic assembly service company built several
thousand printed circuit boards a few years ago that were used in a
smart meter demonstration in Tacoma, WA. I can assure everyone there
is no capability in any so-called smart meter to remotely shut off
your electricity. In Oregon, that would in fact be illegal. To
disconnect a customer's power, a service person must first determine
there is no medical reason for service to be uninterrupted at that
location. then they can pull the meter.


Heh!

As I type this, I'm waiting for CenterPoint to flip a switch at Electricity
Central HQ to turn off the power to the other half of my duplex.

It will be done without a visit from any of their employees. I've had it
done before and they promise the action within six hours of my request.

Of course I'm not in Washington state. Things in Washington are done
differently, such as not using salt on the city street ice to avoid
posioning the nearby Pacific Ocean.

On 4/17/2012 18:23, HeyBub wrote:

As I type this, I'm waiting for CenterPoint to flip a switch at Electricity
Central HQ to turn off the power to the other half of my duplex.

It will be done without a visit from any of their employees. I've had it
done before and they promise the action within six hours of my request.

I suspect that power utilities have different procedures for
disconnecting service for customer requests or non-payment. People who
involuntarily lost electrical service tend to do things like lighting
lots of candles or bringing barbecues indoors, resulting in property
damage, injury, or death. It doesn't look good for the utility.
--

On Apr 17, 9:23*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Paul Drahn wrote:
On 4/15/2012 8:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most
importantly, health ramifications. *Thank You.
First, let me say my electronic assembly service company built several
thousand printed circuit boards a few years ago that were used in a
smart meter demonstration in Tacoma, WA. I can assure everyone there
is no capability in any so-called smart meter to remotely shut off
your electricity. In Oregon, that would in fact be illegal. To
disconnect a customer's power, a service person must first determine
there is no medical reason for service to be uninterrupted at that
location. then they can pull the meter.

Heh!

As I type this, I'm waiting for CenterPoint to flip a switch at Electricity
Central HQ to turn off the power to the other half of my duplex.

It will be done without a visit from any of their employees. I've had it
done before and they promise the action within six hours of my request.

Of course I'm not in Washington state. Things in Washington are done
differently, such as not using salt on the city street ice to avoid
posioning the nearby Pacific Ocean.

I was driving from the airport in Seattle a few years back.
They had just gotten some light snow, maybe an inch.
Boy, what a disaster. Accidents everywhere, cars in
ditches. Being from
the NYC area, I thought it was because they probably
don't get much snow and don't know how to drive. But
maybe there were other factors.....

On 4/17/2012 2:09 PM, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 4/15/2012 8:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most importantly,
health ramifications. Thank You.
First, let me say my electronic assembly service company built several
thousand printed circuit boards a few years ago that were used in a
smart meter demonstration in Tacoma, WA. I can assure everyone there is
no capability in any so-called smart meter to remotely shut off your
electricity. In Oregon, that would in fact be illegal. To disconnect a
customer's power, a service person must first determine there is no
medical reason for service to be uninterrupted at that location. then
they can pull the meter.

The meter would have to have contacts or electronics that could switch
100 or more amps to remotely turn off the service. I have real doubts
that feature is built into any smart meter.


While discussing the problem with the electrician, he told me a secret:

The old mechanical meter only read the power usage from one leg of the
240 volt line. Power usage at 120 volts on the other leg got by free. In
addition, he said electricians would sometimes swap the metered legs so
the excess usage of 120 volt appliances would not be read by the meter.
This is why some people are able to use the 120 volt space heaters in
certain rooms of their house with no increase in electrical usage/bill.

The absolutely standard way of making a single phase 120/240V meter is
to have a current coil in series with each of the legs and a voltage
coil across 240V. It accurately meters the total power being used. The
technology has been around for a real long time. It is highly improbable
the utility used a meter that was any different. IMHO it is much more
likely the electrician is wrong.

--
bud--

The meter would have to have contacts or electronics that could switch
100 or more amps to remotely turn off the service. I have real doubts
that feature is built into any smart meter.


in phoenix some fiancially challenged realtives have pay as you go
meters. after habitually having power cut off.......

buy a preaid power card at a store, insert in meter get so many
dollars of electric.

it must have a way to authenicate the card is valid. so 2 way
communication has to be involved

family reports a loud click when the meter turns off or on.........

presumably theres a high capacity contactor in the meters base to turn
the power off or on

bob haller wrote in news:2a9a0a27-6a3e-4bef-8c9b-
:


The meter would have to have contacts or electronics that could switch
100 or more amps to remotely turn off the service. I have real doubts
that feature is built into any smart meter.


in phoenix some fiancially challenged realtives have pay as you go
meters. after habitually having power cut off.......

buy a preaid power card at a store, insert in meter get so many
dollars of electric.

it must have a way to authenicate the card is valid. so 2 way
communication has to be involved

family reports a loud click when the meter turns off or on.........

presumably theres a high capacity contactor in the meters base to turn
the power off or on

PSE&G (north Jersey) is advertising big savings if you let them install a
new thermostat (sdsupposedly fancy), and let them control your A/C
somehow remotely, 15 min off and on. Since I have trouble believing what
ths particular utility does, I'm no game (yet).

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 4/18/2012 2:05 PM, bud-- wrote:


The meter would have to have contacts or electronics that could switch
100 or more amps to remotely turn off the service. I have real doubts
that feature is built into any smart meter.


Well zap those doubts away:

http://www.trilliantinc.com/solution...ect-disconnect

Like they say:
Google, over one gazillion arguments settled.

bud-- wrote:
On 4/17/2012 2:09 PM, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 4/15/2012 8:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most
importantly, health ramifications. Thank You.
First, let me say my electronic assembly service company built
several thousand printed circuit boards a few years ago that were
used in a smart meter demonstration in Tacoma, WA. I can assure
everyone there is no capability in any so-called smart meter to
remotely shut off your electricity. In Oregon, that would in fact be
illegal. To disconnect a customer's power, a service person must
first determine there is no medical reason for service to be
uninterrupted at that location. then they can pull the meter.

The meter would have to have contacts or electronics that could switch
100 or more amps to remotely turn off the service. I have real doubts
that feature is built into any smart meter.


Here's a 200Amp Thyristor on Ebay for $22.00.

It's trivial to switch that much current.

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:46:57 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

bud-- wrote:
On 4/17/2012 2:09 PM, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 4/15/2012 8:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most
importantly, health ramifications. Thank You.
First, let me say my electronic assembly service company built
several thousand printed circuit boards a few years ago that were
used in a smart meter demonstration in Tacoma, WA. I can assure
everyone there is no capability in any so-called smart meter to
remotely shut off your electricity. In Oregon, that would in fact be
illegal. To disconnect a customer's power, a service person must
first determine there is no medical reason for service to be
uninterrupted at that location. then they can pull the meter.

The meter would have to have contacts or electronics that could switch
100 or more amps to remotely turn off the service. I have real doubts
that feature is built into any smart meter.


Here's a 200Amp Thyristor on Ebay for $22.00.

It's trivial to switch that much current.

Switching it efficiently is a little harder.

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Austerity" "PrintMo.Money "
wrote:

Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most importantly,
health ramifications. Thank You.

Do the math... some customers can get a smart thermostat that
evidently works with the smart meter and bumps the temp setting up a few
degrees. Future smart appliances coming, maybe the fridge will shut
down and the door locks during peak hours. Who knows?
http://www.ogepet.com/programs/smarthours.aspx

Me? I put duct tape around the outer 18 inches of the screen on my
big screen TV. The smaller picture size ought to save a bunch.

I just unplug the refrigerator and freezer on all odd numbered days of
the month. That way my fridge & freezer are only using half as much
electricity. I was thinking about just shutting off the main breaker
for the whole house on all odd numbered days, but I just cant live
without reading all the spam that comes in my email box on a daily
basis.

How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

In article ,
wrote:

How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

I've had a 'remote reading' electric and gas meter here in W Los Angeles
for some years now.

They drive by to read them... every 2 months for the electric, and once
a month for the gas.

The guy that installed the electric meter said they might want to
inspect it from time to time, but so far haven't. I have never cut the
seals and removed it, but have turned the power off a time or two to do
maintenance. It has a small visible antenna within it's glass enclosure.

I googled and found out that the electric meter will remember and 'blow
the whistle' next time it's read should it 'think' it's been tampered
with. There wasn't a lot of detail, but being subjected to a strong
magnetic field was disclosed to be at least one trigger parameter.

Far as the gas goes, all the installer clown knew was that it generates
it's own battery charge current somehow from the actual gas flow, and
that it's read via street drive by.

I've seen both the electric and gas reader trucks driving by.

The water meter is still read manually.

Here's mo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Meter_Reading

Erik

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:30:18 -0700, Erik wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

I've had a 'remote reading' electric and gas meter here in W Los Angeles
for some years now.

They drive by to read them... every 2 months for the electric, and once
a month for the gas.

The guy that installed the electric meter said they might want to
inspect it from time to time, but so far haven't. I have never cut the
seals and removed it, but have turned the power off a time or two to do
maintenance. It has a small visible antenna within it's glass enclosure.

I googled and found out that the electric meter will remember and 'blow
the whistle' next time it's read should it 'think' it's been tampered
with. There wasn't a lot of detail, but being subjected to a strong
magnetic field was disclosed to be at least one trigger parameter.

Far as the gas goes, all the installer clown knew was that it generates
it's own battery charge current somehow from the actual gas flow, and
that it's read via street drive by.

I've seen both the electric and gas reader trucks driving by.

The water meter is still read manually.

Here's mo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Meter_Reading

Erik

What gets me is that my electric meter pole is located at the middle of
my farm, which is 3/4 mile from the road. Yet I never see anyone from
the power company come down here, except once a year when they check the
wires and look for fallen or damaged trees near the wires. Unless there
is a storm and wire problems. I dont think the meter signal can go that
distance, but I could be wrong.

On Apr 19, 8:41*am, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:30:18 -0700, Erik wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. *Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. *The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? *Would an alarm go off
in their office? *In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. *Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason.....

I've had a 'remote reading' electric and gas meter here in W Los Angeles
for some years now.

They drive by to read them... every 2 months for the electric, and once
a month for the gas.

The guy that installed the electric meter said they might want to
inspect it from time to time, but so far haven't. I have never cut the
seals and removed it, but have turned the power off a time or two to do
maintenance. It has a small visible antenna within it's glass enclosure.

I googled and found out that the electric meter will remember and 'blow
the whistle' next time it's read should it 'think' it's been tampered
with. There wasn't a lot of detail, but being subjected to a strong
magnetic field was disclosed to be at least one trigger parameter.

Far as the gas goes, all the installer clown knew was that it generates
it's own battery charge current somehow from the actual gas flow, and
that it's read via street drive by.

I've seen both the electric and gas reader trucks driving by.

The water meter is still read manually.

Here's mo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Meter_Reading

Erik

What gets me is that my electric meter pole is located at the middle of
my farm, which is 3/4 mile from the road. *Yet I never see anyone from
the power company come down here, except once a year when they check the
wires and look for fallen or damaged trees near the wires. *Unless there
is a storm and wire problems. *I dont think the meter signal can go that
distance, but I could be wrong.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We don't have smart meters for electric here in NJ yet.
But I've had the drive by type of water meter for 10+ years.
The water utility swapped them all out to save money on
reading them.
I've also had a radio controlled device on my AC for 20
years. The electric utility can send out a signal to turn
off the compressor on days they need to shed some load.
They used to pay a flat fee, I think $20 a year, to customers
that chose to have them installed. A few years ago they
changed to paying I think $3 each time they activate it.
The old system worked better as they only do it a few times
a year.

With the radio control gizmo, they claim it doesn't
effect your cooling because they only turn it off for
short periods. I'm not sure I understand how exactly
that benefits them much. You would think that the
AC's would all be cycling on and off randomly
anyway and the only way to reduce the energy usage
would be cycle them off more, hence the temp
would have to rise. Or alternatively, there may be
a lot of ACs on peak demand periods that run
constantly. But again, if you cycle them off, you
aren't going to get as much cooling out.

I've never had any issues or even noticed it happening.
But again, they only do it a few days a year and
you don't really notice or have any way of knowing
it's happening.

I think with smart electric meters to do some of the
things that they are capable of would require at
least one way real time communication, eg this load
shedding concept. They also obviously need to keep
the clock inside it set correctly.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:

How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

Call your power company and ask. Do you think there is one answer?

wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Austerity" "PrintMo.Money "
wrote:

Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most
importantly, health ramifications. Thank You.

Do the math... some customers can get a smart thermostat that
evidently works with the smart meter and bumps the temp setting up a
few degrees. Future smart appliances coming, maybe the fridge
will shut down and the door locks during peak hours. Who knows?
http://www.ogepet.com/programs/smarthours.aspx

Me? I put duct tape around the outer 18 inches of the screen on my
big screen TV. The smaller picture size ought to save a bunch.

I just unplug the refrigerator and freezer on all odd numbered days of
the month. That way my fridge & freezer are only using half as much
electricity. I was thinking about just shutting off the main breaker
for the whole house on all odd numbered days, but I just cant live
without reading all the spam that comes in my email box on a daily
basis.

What did you do this past February 29th? Your fridge would be off two days
in a row!

How did you plan for this situation? What problems did you encounter? Did
you have to buy ice at Walmart?

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 08:30:06 -0500, "HeyBub" wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 13:32:39 -0500, "Mr. Austerity" "PrintMo.Money "
wrote:

Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most
importantly, health ramifications. Thank You.

Do the math... some customers can get a smart thermostat that
evidently works with the smart meter and bumps the temp setting up a
few degrees. Future smart appliances coming, maybe the fridge
will shut down and the door locks during peak hours. Who knows?
http://www.ogepet.com/programs/smarthours.aspx

Me? I put duct tape around the outer 18 inches of the screen on my
big screen TV. The smaller picture size ought to save a bunch.

I just unplug the refrigerator and freezer on all odd numbered days of
the month. That way my fridge & freezer are only using half as much
electricity. I was thinking about just shutting off the main breaker
for the whole house on all odd numbered days, but I just cant live
without reading all the spam that comes in my email box on a daily
basis.

What did you do this past February 29th? Your fridge would be off two days
in a row!

How did you plan for this situation? What problems did you encounter? Did
you have to buy ice at Walmart?


Um, do the same thing that you do the other eight other days of *every* year
that have the same issue? ;-)

On Apr 19, 9:23*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. *Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. *The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? *Would an alarm go off
in their office? *In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. *Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

Call your power company and ask. *Do you think there is one answer?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it

wrote in message
...
On Apr 19, 9:23 am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

Call your power company and ask. Do you think there is one answer?- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it

Another one is to install a surge protector ahead of the main breaker. The
only way to do that safely is to pull the meter -- at least that was the
suggestion in the instructions for the surge protector.

Tomsic

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 19, 9:23*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. *Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. *The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? *Would an alarm go off
in their office? *In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. *Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

Call your power company and ask. *Do you think there is one answer?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it

A lot of people do it to change the panel. Sure, they like to know up front
(some insist on doing it themselves - and charging disconnect/connect fees for
it) but most don't get panty-bunch if they're notified.

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 07:41:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 04:30:18 -0700, Erik wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

I've had a 'remote reading' electric and gas meter here in W Los Angeles
for some years now.

They drive by to read them... every 2 months for the electric, and once
a month for the gas.

The guy that installed the electric meter said they might want to
inspect it from time to time, but so far haven't. I have never cut the
seals and removed it, but have turned the power off a time or two to do
maintenance. It has a small visible antenna within it's glass enclosure.

I googled and found out that the electric meter will remember and 'blow
the whistle' next time it's read should it 'think' it's been tampered
with. There wasn't a lot of detail, but being subjected to a strong
magnetic field was disclosed to be at least one trigger parameter.

Far as the gas goes, all the installer clown knew was that it generates
it's own battery charge current somehow from the actual gas flow, and
that it's read via street drive by.

I've seen both the electric and gas reader trucks driving by.

The water meter is still read manually.

Here's mo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Meter_Reading

Erik

What gets me is that my electric meter pole is located at the middle of
my farm, which is 3/4 mile from the road. Yet I never see anyone from
the power company come down here, except once a year when they check the
wires and look for fallen or damaged trees near the wires. Unless there
is a storm and wire problems. I dont think the meter signal can go that
distance, but I could be wrong.
The new smart meters are networked through the power line and read
in real time. At least the ones here in Waterloo North and Kitchener
Wilmot Hydro areas.(Region of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada - home of the
"Blackberry"

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 19, 9:23Â*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Â*Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. Â*The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Â*Would an alarm go off
in their office? Â*In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Â*Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

Call your power company and ask. Â*Do you think there is one answer?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it
Working on the premise that it is easier to get forgiveness than
permission, perhaps??

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 20:30:47 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Apr 19, 9:23*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. *Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. *The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? *Would an alarm go off
in their office? *In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. *Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason....

Call your power company and ask. *Do you think there is one answer?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it
Working on the premise that it is easier to get forgiveness than
permission, perhaps??

Well said. I know people who just cut the thing and forget it. If questioned
by the power company, "what seal?".

The new smart meters are networked through the power line and read
in real time. At least the ones here in Waterloo North and Kitchener
Wilmot Hydro areas.(Region of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada - home of the
"Blackberry"

I'm in Halton Hills. I look at my data online the next day. You can
definitely see when we clean our dishes and when we wake up and sleep

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 16:40:03 -0400, "Tomsic" wrote:

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it

Because the times I've called the power company it involved making an
appointment, waiting several days for them to come, filling out
paperwork, and then paying a fee them to come. When I worked for rental
companies that needed to get these buildings ready for tenants, they
wanted the work done today, not next week. Not to mention that they did
not want to pay me for numerous trips to the property, and honestly I
did not want to lose money by not being able to complete a simple task
like tapping into the mains for a sub-panel, and having to leave the
job, spending the rest of the day without pay, and then having to drive
a considerable distance to come back, for a half hour of work.

Then too, I had to disconnect my own meter once when lightning fried a
connection to an old main cartridge fuse disconnect box. I had
flickering lights, saw sparks in the box. I was not going to wait for
the company to come, possibly causing a fire, or other damage. I pulled
the meter, took a photo of the burnt connection in the old box, and
removed that box. I had a good used breaker disconnect box. I
installed it and put the meter back, then called the company. I told
them I had a photo of the burned connection, they said not to worry
about it, they would put a new tag on the meter. I was several months
later before they did it.

I'll tell you right now that electricians pull meters all the time.
They are on a schedule, they dont have time to **** around waiting for
the power company. Actually I think in most cases they power companies
dont want to be getting calls all the time for meter removals. They
have more important things to do.

On Apr 19, 4:40*pm, "Tomsic" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Apr 19, 9:23 am, "





wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so. I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate reason.....

Call your power company and ask. Do you think there is one answer?- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... *I
saw it done once. *The house was on fire and the fire company
did it

Another one is to install a surge protector ahead of the main breaker. *The
only way to do that safely is to pull the meter -- at least that was the
suggestion in the instructions for the surge protector.

Tomsic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And does it say in the instructions to break the seal and
pull the meter WITHOUT FIRST AT LEAST CALLING THE
ELECTRIC COMPANY?

Geez....

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:40:06 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Tomsic wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Apr 19, 4:40 pm, "Tomsic" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Apr 19, 9:23 am, "





wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 05:04:14 -0500, wrote:
How do they read "Smart Meters"?

I've heard two different stories on this.

1. They can read my usage anytime, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and
do so right at the power company. Supposedly the signal is sent via the
power lines to their office.

2. They can only read these meters by driving past the residence or
business where the meter is located, the signal is sent by a radio wave
and is limited to a certain number of feet from the meter, which they
read once a month by driving past homes with their meters. The vehicles
they drive have a receiver to read them.

Which of these is true?

Both.

---

This brings up another thought.....
What would happen if I removed my "Smart meter"? Would an alarm go off
in their office? In the old days, when I had to work on the mains or
service entrance (beyond the meter) in a home, I'd just pull the meter,
do the work, and put the meter back. Then I'd notify the power company
to tell them that I cut the band on the meter, and why I had to do so.
I
never got any complains since I had legitimate reasons to do it.
I'd hesitate to do that these days.... even with a legitimate
reason....

Call your power company and ask. Do you think there is one answer?- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm trying to imagine the legitmate reasons to cut the seal
on the meter before calling the electric company..... I
saw it done once. The house was on fire and the fire company
did it

Another one is to install a surge protector ahead of the main breaker.
The
only way to do that safely is to pull the meter -- at least that was the
suggestion in the instructions for the surge protector.

Tomsic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And does it say in the instructions to break the seal and
pull the meter WITHOUT FIRST AT LEAST CALLING THE
ELECTRIC COMPANY?

Geez....

No, the instructions assume you are an electrician and know what to do in
your area when you pull the meter or want it pulled.

Tomsic

In my area there are no permits or the like required for electrical
work. I've pulled the meter a few times to do work before the main
breaker and never had a complaint from the utility. The one time (first
time) when I actually called the utility the idiot whined about permits
and whatnot (after I had already confirmed with the city that none were
required) so I just hung up on them and got on with my work. The key
thing is that *nothing* is consistent from state to state or even city
to city, so figure out the deal in *your* area.

Not that this has anything to do with my original question, but your
experience is about the same **** I got. You get some bimbo secretary
who dont know anything except how to ask your location, and is trained
to use the word "permit". Then you waste hours filling out forms and
crap, and then have to wait days or weeks to finally do the job. Screw
that!!! In the time it takes to deal with all the "red tape" I could do
20 repairs, and be making money. My time is valuable, as well as
costly. I'm not paid to fill out paperwork and deal with bimbos on the
phone. Over the years, I've pulled several hundred meters. I was
probably asked for an explanation about 5 times. The rest of the time
they just put on a new tag whenever they come to inspect the wires and
nothing was said.

In my case, the power company is 35 miles away. That's 70 miles of
travel for at least 2 paid employees, cost of fuel, etc. Even if they
charge $25 for the call, they lose money. I know they would rather have
the electrician do the disconnect. They just need to cover their asses
from accidents. If I call after the job is done, I've proven there was
no accident. There is no way in hell that I'm going to wire mains while
the power is live. The old saying "Safety First" means that the meter
needs to be pulled for any work between the meter and the main breaker.

I've had to deal with several service entrance pipes being ripped off
buildings by fallen trees or storms. That's a different matter. The
company needs to come and come immediately. Once I had one ripped off
and a hot wire was shorting against the aluminum siding of the house.
(Due to a wind storm and fallen tree). That was a disaster waiting to
happen. The house belonged to a relative and they were not home.
(thank God or they may have been electrocuted when touching the aluminum
storm door).
I kicked in their locked garage door, grabbed a long 2x4 and put it
between the house and the wire. That way the wind snapping the wire
around, was unable to touch the house siding. The power company thanked
me for that, as well as my relatives. There was a huge burn hole in the
siding, and charred wood under it. I think the heavy rain kept it from
burning.

On 4/16/2012 11:19 AM, Duesenberg wrote:
On 4/16/2012 10:11 AM, Peter wrote:
On 4/15/2012 11:33 AM, Way Back Jack wrote:
in terms of energy savings, privacy, fire risk, and, most importantly,
health ramifications. Thank You.

No matter how hard the utilities try to convince the consumer that it is
for their advantage, the bottom line is that the power companies
wouldn't be doing it if it did not result in higher profits for them. At
this time in our history, when social and economic issues require many
families to work more hours/week out of the home, their discretionary
timing for the use of power is much lower than it was 20+ years ago. If
no one is home, no one is going to run the high wattage stuff
unattended. You need to cook, wash, etc. when you have the available
time. Also, lots of folks are willing to spend hundreds of $$/month on
cable/wireless services and/or convenience food and may not be worried
about the inconvenience they might have to endure to save $20-50/mo on
their electric bill. I'm very skeptical that anyone other than the
executives and primary shareholders of the utilities will obtain
tangible benefits after the changeover.


Do you beleive that consumers for the last 30 or 40 years have been
paying a fair price for energy costs? I tend to think it's been too low
for too long.

You sound like the so called rich people who claim they should be paying
more taxes. There has never been a law against them writing
a check to the IRS for more money to be donated to the government.
If YOU want to pay more for YOUR energy. Write a letter to the utility
providing YOU with energy and include a check for whatever amount YOU
wish and tell them to use YOUR money for whatever and tell them YOU
wish to pay a higher price. If YOU want to pay more for electricity
for instance, YOU can demand that YOU have YOUR rate changed to the
commercial rate which in my area is higher than the rate for homes.
Don't tell ME that I need to pay more, YOU can spend YOUR money any
way YOU want. ^_^

TDD

On 4/17/2012 5:11 PM, Mr. Austerity wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
Duesenberg wrote:
However I was thinking more in line with the wide availability of
large SUVS, luxury V8 automobiles with 400 HP, and households that
buy a flat panel tv every 3 years, disposing of the old one.

Was also thinking of pollution and water cleanup costs, air quality,
people's health etc.

There is a price for cheap energy that can't be measured on a monthly
bill.

Interestingly, those countries that have an abundance of large SUVs,
V8 automobiles, 3-year replacements on their flat-panel tvs, and eat a
lot of TV dinners, are immeasurably "cleaner," with healthier people,
than those countries that have no large SUVs, V8 automobiles, or
flat-panel TVs.


It's the vitamins in the TV dinners. I haven't had scurvy in years.

But people coming here from other countries have been kind enough to
bring us bedbugs and diseases. ^_^

TDD