I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

On 1/31/2012 11:03 PM, Ook wrote:


Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.


Most people buy the cheapest product on the shelf. To deliver the lowest
price possible, US manufacturing has forced to move to China.

Consequently, the remaining 5% of us that are willing to pay extra for a
high-quality product are screwed.

About all you can do is buy the cheapest machine, use it till it craps
and then toss it on the heap at your local landfill.

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 20:03:31 -0800 (PST), Ook
wrote:

None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China?

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

Don't always blame China. Blame the (often US) designers that
specified the material. It was probably designed and engineered here
and them made for cheap in China, to the specifications they were
given.

Get a Made in the USA Kitchen Aid mixer for the dough and use the oven
for baking. Your hands make good dough kneading implements barring a
lot of arthritis.

On 2/1/2012 5:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
..

Don't always blame China. Blame the (often US) designers that
specified the material. It was probably designed and engineered here
and them made for cheap in China, to the specifications they were
given.

Get a Made in the USA Kitchen Aid mixer for the dough and use the oven
for baking. Your hands make good dough kneading implements barring a
lot of arthritis.



Or consider trying a couple no-knead recipes? Just a thought...

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 05:35:43 -0500, Harry Johnson wrote:

On 1/31/2012 11:03 PM, Ook wrote:


Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.


Most people buy the cheapest product on the shelf. To deliver the lowest
price possible, US manufacturing has forced to move to China.

Consequently, the remaining 5% of us that are willing to pay extra for a
high-quality product are screwed.

Yes, all too common unfortunately :-(

I'm not sure when home-use bread machines really started appearing; my
usual solution to these kinds of problems is to find something that was
built years ago, but was designed well, then do any necessary restoration
work on it.

cheers

Jules

"Ook" wrote in message
...
I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

I have migrated away from the bread machines (Panasonic) that did a good job
for me
Bought them used at the Goodwill for peanuts. ( House & Cabin)
I have since bought a Cuisinart Stand Mixer
The big one can do dough for 2# loaves at a time.
A bit more time involved in making the bread, but far more options of the
results

"Duesenberg" wrote in message
...
On 2/1/2012 5:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
.

Don't always blame China. Blame the (often US) designers that
specified the material. It was probably designed and engineered here
and them made for cheap in China, to the specifications they were
given.

Get a Made in the USA Kitchen Aid mixer for the dough and use the oven
for baking. Your hands make good dough kneading implements barring a
lot of arthritis.



Or consider trying a couple no-knead recipes? Just a thought...


A good mixer will do most of the kneading for you .

On 1/31/2012 11:03 PM, Ook wrote:
I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.
I don't think you are going to find a home use bread machine that has
sealed, permanently lubricated, ball bearing type bearings. They all
seem to use some variant of rubber/plastic friction fit seals where the
shaft of the beater blade penetrates the bread pan. I've had 2 cheap
bread machines each last more than 8 years by (1) minimizing the amount
of water soak time I use (generally about 5 minutes) to soften the
residual crust around the shaft and seal after each bake job, (2)
manually rotating the shaft by inserting the blade and rotating it for
about 1 minute after drying and before storing, and (3) repeating step
#2 immediately prior to adding ingredients for another loaf. I
generally make 5-6 loafs/month. Although the shaft sometimes starts
with considerable friction, a minute or so of manual rotation always
seems to free it up. If the shaft is really seized, put a small puddle
of cooking oil in the bottom of the pan and let it soak for about 20
minutes, pour out the oil, put on the blade and try to force the shaft
to rotate.

If all else fails, I found that even after I badly damaged a seal by
using WD-40 on the underside of the pan, to the point where the shaft
was vertically loose, there was no leakage when preparing a loaf if I
added most of the dry ingredients before adding the water to the pan.
Even early in the kneading process, the dough is too viscous to creep
through the damaged seal.

My main gripe is that after using each new machine for only a few
months, the finished loaf tears from the beater blade when you dump the
finished loaf out of the pan. Well lubricating surface of the blade
with cooking oil doesn't seem to help. Very mysterious given that I
don't see any surface defects in the "no-stick" coating on the blade.

Don't always blame China. Blame the (often US) designers that
specified the material.


Baloney! It is CHINA which substitutes inferior materials for what is
specified. They will switch to cheaper components in the middle of a
production run without telling the U.S. manufacturer! U.S.
manufacturers have to watch them like a hawk.

I have stopped buying anything made in China. Too much crap. Too many
returns.

can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine?


KitchenAid stand mixers with the dough hook will do the job!

Still made in USA...
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/appliances.html

Main page...
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com

My philosophy, unfortunately, has been to buy the $80 machine and throw it out when it breaks. I think I'm on my fifth or sixth machine by now but I use it a lot and I got the first one when they first came out in the mid eighties.

6 x 80 = 480

What kind of good bread machine can you buy for $480?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
news:103577.3077.1328109552137.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbiq27...
My philosophy, unfortunately, has been to buy the $80 machine and throw it
out when it breaks. I think I'm on my fifth or sixth machine by now but I
use it a lot and I got the first one when they first came out in the mid
eighties.

On Feb 1, 9:50*am, "Bill" wrote:
Don't always blame China. *Blame the (often US) designers that
specified the material.

Baloney! It is CHINA which substitutes inferior materials for what is
specified. They will switch to cheaper components in the middle of a
production run without telling the U.S. manufacturer! U.S.
manufacturers have to watch them like a hawk.

That may happen in 5% of the cases. In the other 95%,
the US company knows damn well what they're getting.
And if any of it makes it to the consumer, it's mostly
the US company's fault anyway. They are supposed to
have the appropriate quality control processes in place
to prevent crap from getting through. And a responsible
US company would stop
doing business with any vendors that try to pull such
stunts.




I have stopped buying anything made in China. Too much crap. Too many
returns.

Some how I don't believe that.

On 1/31/2012 10:03 PM, Ook wrote:
I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

http://bit.ly/zo8L19



--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Jan 31, 11:03*pm, Ook wrote:
I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

I understand that this Zojirushi unit is supposed to be the Top Choice
in bread machines for home use.

Pricey, but supposed well worth it.

I was going to buy one, but my daughter bought me a Panasonic unit for
my birthday and by the time I returned to the on-line vendor and paid
the shipping and re-stocking fees, the overall out of pocket expense
to end up with the Zojirushi unit would have been too much.

The feature I like the best is the fact that it makes "regular shaped"
loaves, not the tall ones like most bread machines.

http://www.bestbreadmachinereviews.c...admaker-review

A $480 bread machine that will last 30 years? I don't think any of them. Certainly no non-stick coating will last that long.

Can also probably find used ones really cheap; a lot of people buy them and don't like the result so they sell them almost brand-new.

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

On Feb 1, 12:11*pm, Edge wrote:
I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of *the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate. We've all had situations where we knew more
about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

On Feb 1, 12:46*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:11*pm, Edge wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of *the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. This isn't anything new. This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out



I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more
about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.

On Feb 1, 1:28*pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:46*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Feb 1, 12:11*pm, Edge wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of *the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. *There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. *A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. *You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. *This isn't anything new. *This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out







I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more

about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

I'm not sure who you are "bogusing" here.

I was responding to Edge's comment that these Customer Service
organizations tally consumer complaint data and use it to trace
problems all the way back to the shift that built the unit.

Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.

On 2/1/2012 12:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:28 pm,
wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:46 pm, wrote:





On Feb 1, 12:11 pm, wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. This isn't anything new. This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out







I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more

about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

I'm not sure who you are "bogusing" here.

I was responding to Edge's comment that these Customer Service
organizations tally consumer complaint data and use it to trace
problems all the way back to the shift that built the unit.

Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.

it depends upon the company. i'm a csr for a computer company, and yes,
we can track hardware problems down that far.

On 2/1/2012 12:06 PM, chaniarts wrote:
On 2/1/2012 12:02 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:28 pm,
wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:46 pm, wrote:





On Feb 1, 12:11 pm, wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. This isn't anything new. This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out







I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more

about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

I'm not sure who you are "bogusing" here.

I was responding to Edge's comment that these Customer Service
organizations tally consumer complaint data and use it to trace
problems all the way back to the shift that built the unit.

Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.


it depends upon the company. i'm a csr for a computer company, and yes,
we can track hardware problems down that far.

not only that, but we know which other customers have it, and can (and
have) proactively contacted them to arrange for a replacement part to be
installed.

Ook wrote in news:0f05cc4a-7b03-4f3a-a740-4c31dfc31146
@n8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com:

I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

I bought my wife one of the Zojirushi machines two years ago. This is her
third one and is by far the best one she has ever had. I seems absolutely
bulletproof in the two years that she has been using it. Look at Amazon
and they get great reviews.

They are supposed to
have the appropriate quality control processes in place
to prevent crap from getting through. And a responsible
US company would stop
doing business with any vendors that try to pull such stunts.

Companies don't find out a China manufacturer switched something until
the products have already been imported and sold. They will NOT allow
inspection. Or they set up phony assembly lines for quality
inspectors. Out and out deception and fraud! See for yourself...

Read the book: Poorly Made in China: An Insider's Account of the
Tactics Behind China's Production Game...
http://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-Ch.../dp/0470405589

Lethal tampering with food or drug ingredients (to say nothing of lead
paint in toys and poisonous toothpaste) from China seems to be
business as usual....
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/...roducts-china/

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:40:07 -0500, Duesenberg wrote Re
Bread Machine recommendation. Want one NOT made in China.:

Or consider trying a couple no-knead recipes? Just a thought...

How about buying Wonder Bread?
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:28:16 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:



That is just totally bogus. There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. This isn't anything new. This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out

One of our customers provides us with a fabricated metal part
consisting of some steel wire welded in a grid and a couple of thin
steel strips and it is bent to a "U" shape. We use it in a product we
mold for them.

They have two suppliers, one in Ohio, the other in China. One arrives
perfectly stacked in crates on pallets and every part is identical and
usable. The other arrives tacked on pallets falling over, bottom
parts are bent and scrap and sometimes have to be slightly bent to fit
right. Would you prefer to buy the cheaper and better?

We also buy some tooling from China. Quality is as good, delivery is
half the time and half the price. I'd rather buy US products, but our
customers will not pay the price.

Yes, some junk comes from China, but it is often the crappy designs
the US management is sending over in search of bigger profits. Thinner
metal, smaller bearings, you've seen it. Appliances have been
downgraded for years , both here and abroad.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:02:35 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.

I'm sure that varies by company. Some will care, others less so. On
many of our products we have no traceability one it is removed from
the package it is shipped in. Others, as required, can be traced to
the shift, operator, raw material. Individual parts are marked.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:08:22 -0600, Caesar Romano
wrote:

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:40:07 -0500, Duesenberg wrote Re
Bread Machine recommendation. Want one NOT made in China.:

Or consider trying a couple no-knead recipes? Just a thought...

How about buying Wonder Bread?


I'm betting you've never tried any of the no-knead recipes. I've
done a couple and they are surprisingly good. [though I still
usually use my Kitchen Aid to do required kneading-- made in USA & a
lot more versatile than a bread machine]

No-knead is not a quick bread-- it usually lets time take the place of
sweat.

This one doesn't even do that-- and it isn't bad.
http://www.thekitchn.com/noknead-bread-i-35556

Jim

On Feb 1, 2:02*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:28*pm, "
wrote:





On Feb 1, 12:46*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Feb 1, 12:11*pm, Edge wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of *the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. *There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. *A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. *You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. *This isn't anything new. *This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out

I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more

about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

I'm not sure who you are "bogusing" here.

I was responding to Edge's comment that these Customer Service
organizations tally consumer complaint data and use it to trace
problems all the way back to the shift that built the unit.

Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought you were referring to product, not CSRs.
Quality control goes well beyond what CSRs enter.
Have you heard of ISO 9000? If it were impossible
to control quality from foreign sources like China,
companies like Boeing would have planes falling out
of the air. IMO, US companies that are shipping crap
Chinese product are doing it because they don't
care and know perfectly well what they are getting
and shipping.

On Feb 1, 10:25*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:28:16 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
That is just totally bogus. *There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. *A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. *You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. *This isn't anything new. *This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out

One of our customers provides us with a fabricated metal part
consisting of some steel wire welded in a grid and a couple of thin
steel strips and it is bent to a "U" shape. *We use it in a product we
mold for them.

They have two suppliers, one in Ohio, the other in China. *One arrives
perfectly stacked in crates on pallets and every part is identical and
usable. *The other arrives tacked on pallets falling over, bottom
parts are bent and scrap and sometimes have to be slightly bent to fit
right. *Would you prefer to buy the cheaper and better?

We also buy some tooling from China. *Quality is as good, delivery is
half the time and half the price. *I'd rather buy US products, but our
customers will not pay the price.

Yes, some junk comes from China, but it is often the crappy designs
the US management is sending over in search of bigger profits. Thinner
metal, smaller bearings, you've seen it. *Appliances have been
downgraded for years , both here and abroad.

Yes, I agree. You can't just blame it on the foreign
vendor, as if the US company has no control. The
US company comes up with the spec for the product
and should be able to measure the incoming product
against it using standard quality control practices.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 06:50:58 -0800, Bill wrote:

I have stopped buying anything made in China. Too much crap. Too many
returns.

How did you manage to buy a computer with no components made in China??

Steve wrote in
53.49:

I bought my wife one of the Zojirushi machines two years ago. This is
her third one and is by far the best one she has ever had. I seems
absolutely bulletproof in the two years that she has been using it.
Look at Amazon and they get great reviews.

KingArthurflour.com also speaks highly of the Zojirushi and sells it. For
me, with a household of me and my wife and visits by kids and grandkids
occasionally, a $2-300 machine isn't cost-effective as long as my 30 year-
old Welbilt still works.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Jan 31, 10:03*pm, Ook wrote:
I have four bread machines, and they are all candidates for the trash
can. One has motor problems, three have bread pans that don't last
(the shaft seizes). None of them have lasted me a year. Not
surprisingly, all of them are made in China.

So, what is a good quality bread machine not made in China? I'm
willing to pay a bit extra for it, I've certainly paid enough for the
junk machines I already have. I don't need bells and whistles, I just
need something that I can run 3-4 times a week. I seldom let it bake
the bread, I just use it to nead the dough. I prefer to take the ready
dough and shape it myself - I have a couple of nice Ecko french bread
shaped pans that work nicely.

Failing to find a good bread machine not made in China, can anyone
recommend a good bread dough neading machine? I'm not sure what they
are called - I've seen them from time to time, heavy duty mixers that
can make bread dough. Again - I want one NOT made in China.

Why is everyone blaming China, Mexico, India and other offshore
manufacturers and service providers? It is American Corporate and
worker greed that is causing the problem. Stockholders demand more
return and union workers demand higher wages. Sometime ridiculously
higher wages.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 06:31:43 -0800, Kuskokwim wrote:

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 06:50:58 -0800, Bill wrote:

I have stopped buying anything made in China. Too much crap. Too many
returns.

How did you manage to buy a computer with no components made in China??

buy used computer in US, take apart, reassemble - at which point it's all
made in the US, not China?

On Feb 1, 5:31*pm, "Bill" wrote:
*They are supposed to
have the appropriate quality control processes in place
to prevent crap from getting through. *And a responsible
US company would stop
doing business with any vendors that try to pull such stunts.

Companies don't find out a China manufacturer switched something until
the products have already been imported and sold. They will NOT allow
inspection.

Oh, please, that's just pure BS. There are numerous quality control
strategies that any company with a pulse can use to prevent
that from happening.

Or they set up phony assembly lines for quality
inspectors. Out and out deception and fraud! See for yourself...

And when you do normal quality control sampling of the incoming
product that is made like crap, you find it. Or if the product
won't fit on the assembly line or breaks you know you have a
problem. Then you figure
out what they pulled and you send it back, don't pay for it,
and cut them off your vendor list.



Read the book: Poorly Made in China: An Insider's Account of the
Tactics Behind China's Production Game...http://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-Ch...tion/dp/047040...

They can have a tactics they want. Any decent US company
that is concerned about quality won't let them get away with it.
On the other hand, there are US companies that don't give a
damn, and know perfectly well what they are buying. If you're
a US company shipping crap that is made in China, it's not
because of the Chinese, it's because of YOU.

On 2/2/2012 7:41 AM, wrote:
On Feb 1, 2:02 pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:28 pm,
wrote:





On Feb 1, 12:46 pm, wrote:

On Feb 1, 12:11 pm, wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. This isn't anything new. This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out

I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more

about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

I'm not sure who you are "bogusing" here.

I was responding to Edge's comment that these Customer Service
organizations tally consumer complaint data and use it to trace
problems all the way back to the shift that built the unit.

Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought you were referring to product, not CSRs.
Quality control goes well beyond what CSRs enter.
Have you heard of ISO 9000? If it were impossible
to control quality from foreign sources like China,
companies like Boeing would have planes falling out
of the air. IMO, US companies that are shipping crap
Chinese product are doing it because they don't
care and know perfectly well what they are getting
and shipping.

The Chinese can make good stuff when they want to or are encouraged to
by the company they're manufacturing for. ^_^

TDD

On 2/2/2012 9:57 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


The Chinese can make good stuff when they want to or are encouraged to
by the company they're manufacturing for. ^_^

TDD

I suppose that's true but it still leaves us with the trade deficit problem.

US residents that buy Chinese products must really hate their children.

On 2/3/2012 4:36 AM, Juan Deere wrote:
On 2/2/2012 9:57 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:


The Chinese can make good stuff when they want to or are encouraged to
by the company they're manufacturing for. ^_^

TDD

I suppose that's true but it still leaves us with the trade deficit
problem.

US residents that buy Chinese products must really hate their children.


Personally I love children, they're great with barbeque sauce and the
toes are the crunchy part. As far as purchasing Chinese products, it's
very difficult to find commodities that are not made in China. It seems
to me that every time I buy screws, nuts, bolts or pipe fitting it has
China stamped on the box or item itself. I've had to replace a lot of
capacitors in air conditioning units and it's almost impossible to find
a replacement part that's not made in China. I imagine that most of the
manufacturers would rather be in the U.S. if not for over regulation by
the government and the outrageous behavior of some labor unions that
make production costs unbearable. Most of our manufacturers have been
run off to China and other countries that are not hostile toward
businesses. I remember when personal computers were manufactured in The
United States, a desktop PC would cost around $5,000.00 and was state of
the art at the time but nowhere near the value you can get today just
about anywhere. O_o

TDD

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 20:57:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/2/2012 7:41 AM, wrote:
On Feb 1, 2:02 pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:28 pm,
wrote:





On Feb 1, 12:46 pm, wrote:

On Feb 1, 12:11 pm, wrote:

I used to work for a customer service company that took the complaints
of consumers through their 800 numbers. Each complaint was classified,
grouped and analyzed by the parent company. Any deviation from normal
stats were flagged. The defective products could be tracked by
production runs to the manufacturers country, factory, date, time,
shift. All products would have records of the materials used as well
as the labor. I agree with Trader4. With the multi-national
manufacturers like Panasonic, nobody can just substitue inferior
material and get away with it for long. It is the parent company that
specifies a plastic cog or a metal one. Ryobi uses plastic parts in
their drills. DeWalt uses metal parts.

All that stuff about tracking complaints and tracing them back to the
shift sounds good on paper.

However, if you've ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out" so
then you shouldn't put much faith in the process.

That is just totally bogus. There is a whole process of
qualifying vendors. A responsible company doesn't just
find a company in China or anywhere and then take and
ship their product. You inspect their facitlities, see what
they are doing, do random quality inspection of incoming
product. This isn't anything new. This is how business has been done
for a LONG time.

You ship me garbage and you're out

I recently called Panasonic about a bread machine I received as a
gift. I gave them the model number and asked a question about the
relationship between their loaf sizes of "Medium, Large and Extra-
Large" and some recipes I had that listed the size in weights (1.5 lb
and 2 lb).

The rep repeated the model number back to me and then looked something
up and said that "Medium, Large and Extra-Large" meant 1 lb, 1.5 lb
and 2 lb loafs.

Since I still had the box right in front of me I asked her: "So why
does the box says it makes "up to 2.5 lb loaves"?

She put me on hold and came back to tell me that she had looked up the
wrong model number and should have told me 1.5, 2 and 2.5.

The point here is that unless the reps really know what they are
doing, the data they enter will not be accurate and the trcking data
will not be accurate.

We've all had situations where we knew more

about the product that we were calling about than the CSR at the 800
number, so I don't put much faith in the accuracy of their 'tracking"
systems.

Garbage In, Garbage Out, Garbage Tracking

Customer service is a whole different process than
making sure what's coming in meets the company's
quality specs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

I'm not sure who you are "bogusing" here.

I was responding to Edge's comment that these Customer Service
organizations tally consumer complaint data and use it to trace
problems all the way back to the shift that built the unit.

Based on my experience with CSR's representing countless companies,
and having worked on the management side of IT help desks, I would put
no faith in the assertion that they can pinpoint a problem that
(allegedly) occurred during C shift on March 3, 2011 at the Yung Min
Teng factory. I just don't believe that the folks wearing the headsets
are entering data accurate enough to do that. I've experienced it as a
consumer and I've seen it in practice at work.

My "Garbage In, Garbage Out" referred to the data entered by the
CSR's, not to any product.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought you were referring to product, not CSRs.
Quality control goes well beyond what CSRs enter.
Have you heard of ISO 9000? If it were impossible
to control quality from foreign sources like China,
companies like Boeing would have planes falling out
of the air. IMO, US companies that are shipping crap
Chinese product are doing it because they don't
care and know perfectly well what they are getting
and shipping.

The Chinese can make good stuff when they want to or are encouraged to
by the company they're manufacturing for. ^_^

....but will turn around and shaft you with crap if given a two second window
in which to do it.

Japanese company.... But made in chi- nah