On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:58:51 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 10, 11:48Â*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:44Â*am, bob haller wrote:





On Nov 10, 11:36Â*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 9:25Â*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31Â*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48Â*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owners insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... Â*Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones.........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)

Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... Â*That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? Â*Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12
gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.

The whole point Bob, is that homeowners doing a project on
their own don't pull permits and the installation never gets
inspected again by someone who knows what they are doing
until an electricians pulls a permit to do a job that would be
inspected -- most small and minor jobs where a permit is
allowed to be pulled after the fact never get inspected at all...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

but at home resale time home inspectors and insurance inspectors check
things out to one degree or another.

In my experience most home inspectors are half blind and ignorant.

lots of issues are caught some totally bogus

They miss the big stuff and catch things like cracked wallplates

replacing a breaker if the wire is undersized is cheap fix.


now try to sell home thats not today elegible for homeowners
insurance....

the buyer either walks away, and the defect must be added to the homes
disclosure form. that kills future sales

or the buyer requires a licensed pro fix whatever, with receipts

before home is put on market owner is free to do what they
want .........

as long as it passes inspection by home inspector / insurance inspector

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 10, 11:44Â*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 9, 7:32Â*am, bob haller wrote:





On Nov 8, 7:31Â*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48Â*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owners insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... Â*Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit
breaker plant in beaver pa.

a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I
was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from
high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.

heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know
you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want
to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2
years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years
was let go

breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more
sensitive over time.....

if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the
circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.

LOL...

Bob, a breaker which is exposed to continuous (tiny) overcurrent
situations is a lot more likely to simply deform inside and fail in
the circuit CLOSED position...

Especially the older the breaker gets and even more likely in
adverse environmental conditions... Â*(High Humidity, High Heat)

I take it you have never seen the results of failed circuit breakers
in the form of melty/welded/destroyed bus bars inside a breaker
panel... Â*Those sort of situations are just as likely to cause a
fire as an improperly sized fuse... Â*That is why thermographic
surveys of circuit breaker panels under load are done in larger
buildings to assess the heat conditions present in the panels
and determine when they should be replaced or upgraded...

Fuses blow out and won't allow an unskilled/incompetent person
to keep resetting them even when an overload condition is still
present in the circuit until the problem has been resolved...
People stop trying to replace fuses and call an electrician after
the 2nd blows out immediately after screwing it in...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as i statred before breakers are designed to fail, by tripping at
lower currents.......

if many truly never tripped the lawsuits would put the company out of
business ,,,,,, oh wait that already happened to FPE
And Square D QO breakers have been known to fail the same way - trip
the 100 amp main before the 15A QO trips.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:58:11 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 9:25 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 9, 2:30 pm, wrote:
On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

Electrical distribution fuse panels, as shown in Figure 2 have become
obsolete and in many jurisdictions a homeowner cannot get home
insurance if they have an old style fuse panel installed.

No source.

No context.

My State Farm insurance agent said there would probably not be a problem
with a 100A fused service.

That blows your FUD.

Clare said the agency he is associated with does not have a particular
problem with fuses.

That blows your FUD.

Driving around I see a lot of 60A services - which will in all
probability be fused. Inconceivable that the houses are not insured.

That blows your FUD.

If the house is SOLD, the 60 amp circuit gets replaced or no
insurance and no mortgage.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated
"posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"

Fetishes can be disabling. Maybe you could get counseling.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

The NEC is applicable only as it is adopted by a local jurisdiction.

From wikipedia - one of hallerb's links
"California and Washington, as well as possibly other states, have
actually reversed the ruling on insulation around K&T. They did not find
a single fire that was attributed to K&T"

Last I read there were at least 5 entire states that allow insulating
over K&T. PA was not listed, but a state agency (hallerb's link)
insulates over K&T. Some states don't have a code at the state level.


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????
Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

I haven't seen particular K&T horror stories.
I have seen some other wiring with horror stories.
I ran a service truck for years and was in a huge number of houses.

Perhaps you and hallerb could stop generalizing your opinions to the
whole USA

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:18:35 -0800 (PST), Evan
wrote:

On Nov 10, 12:05Â*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:44Â*am, Evan wrote:



On Nov 9, 7:32Â*am, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31Â*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48Â*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owners insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... Â*Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit
breaker plant in beaver pa.

a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I
was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from
high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.

heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know
you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want
to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2
years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years
was let go

breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more
sensitive over time.....

if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the
circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.

LOL...

Bob, a breaker which is exposed to continuous (tiny) overcurrent
situations is a lot more likely to simply deform inside and fail in
the circuit CLOSED position...

Especially the older the breaker gets and even more likely in
adverse environmental conditions... Â*(High Humidity, High Heat)

I take it you have never seen the results of failed circuit breakers
in the form of melty/welded/destroyed bus bars inside a breaker
panel... Â*Those sort of situations are just as likely to cause a
fire as an improperly sized fuse... Â*That is why thermographic
surveys of circuit breaker panels under load are done in larger
buildings to assess the heat conditions present in the panels
and determine when they should be replaced or upgraded...

Fuses blow out and won't allow an unskilled/incompetent person
to keep resetting them even when an overload condition is still
present in the circuit until the problem has been resolved...
People stop trying to replace fuses and call an electrician after
the 2nd blows out immediately after screwing it in...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as i statred before breakers are designed to fail, by tripping at
lower currents.......

if many truly never tripped the lawsuits would put the company out of
business ,,,,,, oh wait that already happened to FPE

@Bob:

Really ?

Most any product I have ever purchased must be used PROPERLY
for any sort of liability to attach to the manufacturer...

A circuit breaker being used under a tiny amount of overload
constantly
is not being used properly

Correct. A branch circuit can not be DESIGNED to run at more than 80%
of the protection device rating, by code.
(think improperly tightened electrical
connections or a high resistance short to ground) because the wiring
does not conform to "best practices" within the trade and has
not been maintained properly...

You can't blame the manufacturer for something being used outside
of its tested limits or that was inaccurately selected or installed by
the homeowner... All of the liability rests with the homeowner in
that situation...

~~ Evan

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t... cf.osb&cad=b

bud ignores the over 18,000 google hits on this subject......

He lives in a delusional world, where everything is fine

On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the power cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

The NEC is applicable only as it is adopted by a local jurisdiction.

From wikipedia - one of hallerb's links
"California and Washington, as well as possibly other states, have
actually reversed the ruling on insulation around K&T. They did not find
a single fire that was attributed to K&T"

Last I read there were at least 5 entire states that allow insulating
over K&T. PA was not listed, but a state agency (hallerb's link)
insulates over K&T. Some states don't have a code at the state level.


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

My point through this whole thread is that generalizing between
different states (and countries) is not always valid.


I haven't seen particular K&T horror stories.
I have seen some other wiring with horror stories.
I ran a service truck for years and was in a huge number of houses.

Perhaps you and hallerb could stop generalizing your opinions to the
whole USA

On Nov 11, 11:10*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:





On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

* Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the *power *cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
* I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:49:36 -0800 (PST), bob haller wrote:

On Nov 11, 11:10*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:





On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

* Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the *power *cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
* I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..

Then he can spend the $75. Compared to the kiln or shop, the $75 is trivial.

On Nov 11, 2:08*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:49:36 -0800 (PST), bob haller wrote:
On Nov 11, 11:10*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

* Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the *power *cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
* I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..

Then he can spend the $75. *Compared to the kiln or shop, the $75 is trivial.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

no you missed my point, the new main panel 200 amp may only cost 75
bucks than a 100 amp panel. when i last priced panels the difference
was amazingly small......... when done as part of a main panel
replacement.....

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:34:24 -0800 (PST), bob haller wrote:

On Nov 11, 2:08*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:49:36 -0800 (PST), bob haller wrote:
On Nov 11, 11:10*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

* Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the *power *cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
* I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..

Then he can spend the $75. *Compared to the kiln or shop, the $75 is trivial.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

no you missed my point, the new main panel 200 amp may only cost 75
bucks than a 100 amp panel. when i last priced panels the difference
was amazingly small......... when done as part of a main panel
replacement.....

....let the next guy do it.

BTW, an ellipsis has only three dots (some allow four if it's a complete
sentence).

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

The NEC is applicable only as it is adopted by a local jurisdiction.

From wikipedia - one of hallerb's links
"California and Washington, as well as possibly other states, have
actually reversed the ruling on insulation around K&T. They did not find
a single fire that was attributed to K&T"

Last I read there were at least 5 entire states that allow insulating
over K&T. PA was not listed, but a state agency (hallerb's link)
insulates over K&T. Some states don't have a code at the state level.


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.
My point through this whole thread is that generalizing between
different states (and countries) is not always valid.


I haven't seen particular K&T horror stories.
I have seen some other wiring with horror stories.
I ran a service truck for years and was in a huge number of houses.

Perhaps you and hallerb could stop generalizing your opinions to the
whole USA

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:49:36 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 11, 11:10Â*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:





On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

Â* Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the Â*power Â*cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
Â* I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..
If the upgrade was $75 it would be a no-brainer - but it's not - so
it's not. There is NO downside to having a bigger service than
required.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:34:24 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 11, 2:08Â*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:49:36 -0800 (PST), bob haller wrote:
On Nov 11, 11:10Â*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

Â* Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the Â*power Â*cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
Â* I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..

Then he can spend the $75. Â*Compared to the kiln or shop, the $75 is trivial.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

no you missed my point, the new main panel 200 amp may only cost 75
bucks than a 100 amp panel. when i last priced panels the difference
was amazingly small......... when done as part of a main panel
replacement.....
And the upgrade to the service - before the panel - is $1700 plus
trenching costs (including lifting and relaying the brick driveway)

wrote:

As for the knockouts - yes, you can create new holes, but not where
existing knockouts already exist but do not line up. That's what
"greenley" punches are for.The problem is there is only about 4 square
inches of available "real estate" left to add holes.

You can probably special order the version of the panel with the
enclosure that does not include knockouts. I haven't had to do that for
a panel, but I routinely do that for pull boxes and troughs and use step
drills and hydraulic punches to put the exact hole config I want in.

no you missed my point, the new main panel 200 amp may *only cost 75
bucks than a 100 amp panel. when i last priced panels the difference
was amazingly small......... when done as part of a main panel
replacement.....

*And the upgrade to the service - before the panel - is $1700 plus
trenching costs (including lifting and relaying the brick driveway)-

my idea was to replace meter can, install 200 amp capable main panel
with 100 amp breaker and 200 amp lead from meter can to main panel..
all of these upgrades would be cheap

if someone wants in the future to up to 200 amps none of this new work
would need to be changed other than swapping out the main breaker.....

the new expense stuff would be on their dime

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:24:48 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

As for the knockouts - yes, you can create new holes, but not where
existing knockouts already exist but do not line up. That's what
"greenley" punches are for.The problem is there is only about 4 square
inches of available "real estate" left to add holes.

You can probably special order the version of the panel with the
enclosure that does not include knockouts. I haven't had to do that for
a panel, but I routinely do that for pull boxes and troughs and use step
drills and hydraulic punches to put the exact hole config I want in.
Residential panels, at least here in Canada are not available
unpunched. Special oder means BIG BUCKS and LONG WAIT TIMES.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:29:51 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:



no you missed my point, the new main panel 200 amp may Â*only cost 75
bucks than a 100 amp panel. when i last priced panels the difference
was amazingly small......... when done as part of a main panel
replacement.....

Â*And the upgrade to the service - before the panel - is $1700 plus
trenching costs (including lifting and relaying the brick driveway)-

my idea was to replace meter can, install 200 amp capable main panel
with 100 amp breaker and 200 amp lead from meter can to main panel..
all of these upgrades would be cheap

There is really no other way to do the job,here in Waterloo. The
service layout REQUIRES replacement of the meter base, and installing
anything less than the 200 amp rated cable for 2 feet would not make
any sense at all.(if it would even be allowed)

if someone wants in the future to up to 200 amps none of this new work
would need to be changed other than swapping out the main breaker.....

the new expense stuff would be on their dime

On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

--
bud--

On Nov 12, 9:11*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:





On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

* * Bud,

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? *Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

* *Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

--
bud---provided every single change was proper and to code it may not have been molested, but it still doesnt make it efficent, as safe as current code, modern or convenient.

do tell does your moms home still have a fuse box? a outlet for every
6 feet of wall? multiple 20 amp outlets in kitchen? GFCIs for kitchen
bath and outdoor outlets? are major appliances all on their own
circuit? are all cieling light circuits isolated from all receptables?
so a tripped breaker or blown fuse doesnt create a lights out and trip
hazard? was all the K&T removed? I ask because the K&T insulation
fails and falls off over time.

bud protests a lot, its possible he is attempting to convince himself
all is well at moms house while it might not be.....

does moms house have working smoke detectors and carbon monoxide
detectors? have you had the chimney cap inspected?

is moms house truly safe?

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:11:15 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?
That depends an awfull lot on the "electrician", doesn't it????

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:46:07 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 12, 9:11Â*am, bud-- wrote:
On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:





On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

Â* Â* Bud,

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Â*Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Â* Â*Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

--
bud---provided every single change was proper and to code it may not have been molested, but it still doesnt make it efficent, as safe as current code, modern or convenient.

do tell does your moms home still have a fuse box? a outlet for every
6 feet of wall? multiple 20 amp outlets in kitchen? GFCIs for kitchen
bath and outdoor outlets? are major appliances all on their own
circuit? are all cieling light circuits isolated from all receptables?
so a tripped breaker or blown fuse doesnt create a lights out and trip
hazard? was all the K&T removed? I ask because the K&T insulation
fails and falls off over time.

bud protests a lot, its possible he is attempting to convince himself
all is well at moms house while it might not be.....

does moms house have working smoke detectors and carbon monoxide
detectors? have you had the chimney cap inspected?

is moms house truly safe?
Is the ground around the outhouse well stabilized by turf, or is it
muddy.(slip and fall hazard) Is the coal chute wall solid enough to
keep the pile from collapsing into the rest of the celar? Or does it
still have a woodshed instead? Is the ash bin still solid, or is it
rusted through in the corner? Does she keep the ask bin in the
woodshed or on the front porch?? (bad idea - many fires caused by hot
ashes in the ashbin on the porch) Or is she using plug-in electric
heaters on the K&T circuits?

On 11/12/2011 8:46 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 12, 9:11 am, wrote:
On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:





On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

Bud,

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

--
bud---

provided every single change was proper and to code it may not have been molested,
but it still doesnt[sic] make it efficent[sic], as safe as current code, modern or convenient.

A huge percentage of houses do not meet the current code. There is no
requirement that they do.

Most people at a.h..r probably don't have a house that meets the current
NEC.

My house, originally wired with rigid pipe and upgraded multiple times,
does not meet all current NEC requirements for new construction.
Contrary to your FUD is safe and efficient.


do tell does your moms home still have a fuse box? a outlet for every
6 feet of wall? multiple 20 amp outlets in kitchen? GFCIs for kitchen
bath and outdoor outlets? are major appliances all on their own
circuit? are all cieling[sic] light circuits isolated from all receptables[sic]?
so a tripped breaker or blown fuse doesnt[sic] create a lights out and trip
hazard?

Not all of that is even code.

Everyone at a.h.r needs to upgrade their house to meet the current NEC.
hallerb says so.

was all the K&T removed? I ask because the K&T insulation
fails and falls off over time.

You are dumb as a rock


bud protests a lot, its possible he is attempting to convince himself
all is well at moms house while it might not be.....

I have actually worked wit h K&T and don't have a fetish.


does moms house have working smoke detectors and carbon monoxide
detectors? have you had the chimney cap inspected?

is moms house truly safe?

It was last time I was there before it was sold.


In this thread you have got wrong:
- Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
- you can't get insurance for fuses
- you can never get insurance for K&T
- you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
- there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
- there are no boxes with K&T
- if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
- homes with K&T can't be insulated
- "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"
- everyone's house should comply with current NEC requirements for new
construction

--
bud--

On 11/12/2011 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:11:15 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

That depends an awfull lot on the "electrician", doesn't it????

There you have it - electricians in Canada molest houses.

Here they do quality work that is inspected.

--
bud--

On 11/11/2011 10:49 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 11, 11:10 am, wrote:
On 11/10/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:





On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the power cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

You said previously it is a small house and 100A is plenty.
It is another hallerb fetish.

--
bud--

if a upgrade of panel capacity was 75 bucks would it be worth it? a
future buyer might want a electric kiln in the basement or other power
hungry thing like a shop and buy just on the basis of ease of
upgrading for their special use..


Your ignorance on electrical issues is appalling.
And it is made worse by your fetishes.

Clare said the house had an electric range, AC, and electric drier.

Running a NEC calculation for a house the size of clare's with electric
range, dryer and water heater gives a service size of 80A. More
electrical could be added.

RBM told you something like that months ago. It is like talking to a rock.


In this thread you have got wrong:
- Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
- you can't get insurance for fuses
- you can never get insurance for K&T
- you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
- there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
- there are no boxes with K&T
- if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
- homes with K&T can't be insulated
- "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"
- everyone's house should comply with current NEC requirements for new
construction
- you can't add major appliances to a 100A service

--
bud--

On 11/13/2011 8:16 AM, bud-- wrote:


Clare said the house had an electric range, AC, and electric drier.

Running a NEC calculation for a house the size of clare's with electric
range, dryer and water heater gives a service size of 80A. More
electrical could be added.

RBM told you something like that months ago. It is like talking to a rock.


In this thread you have got wrong:
- Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
- you can't get insurance for fuses
- you can never get insurance for K&T
- you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
- there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
- there are no boxes with K&T
- if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
- homes with K&T can't be insulated
- "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being
uninsurable"
- everyone's house should comply with current NEC requirements for new
construction
- you can't add major appliances to a 100A service



Power requirement are never what people want to think they are. I have
one rental i completely rewired with a 100A panel and 20 new circuits.
In this house are the following:
2 adults
3 kids
1 electric stove
1 central a/c unit
1 electric dryer
2 refrigerators (one in the detached garage being fed with 12-2 underground)
2 larger flat panel tv's
2 computers
2 aquariums

the rest of the normal array of things the average family of 5 would
have. Here's the kicker.... When i put the new panel in, i didn't care
to have the "evaluation of need" and all that bull**** the power company
wanted to come pull the meter and feed my new panel. So what I did is
just turned the old "main/range plus four" into a disconnect. So what i
have feeding this entire house is two 60 fuses still in the original
box. In 4 years neither of these has blown or caused any problems.
There is no dimming of lights when the a/c or range is used. It's just
a fallacy as to what people *think* they need power wise.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:12:44 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/12/2011 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:11:15 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/11/2011 7:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:20:03 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/10/2011 5:50 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:01:39 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

Are you an electrician????

I have been a licensed master electrician for over 35 years.

Over the last 50 years ( 40 from 1956 to 2006)as an electrician my dad
rewired a LOT of older homes - and he virtually NEVER found an
"unmolested" K&T

Was my mother's old house that was upgraded by licensed electricians
"molested"?

I wouldn't bet against it.

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

That depends an awfull lot on the "electrician", doesn't it????

There you have it - electricians in Canada molest houses.

Here they do quality work that is inspected.
I've seen some AWFULL electrical work in Florida - done and inspected

wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:24:48 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

As for the knockouts - yes, you can create new holes, but not where
existing knockouts already exist but do not line up. That's what
"greenley" punches are for.The problem is there is only about 4 square
inches of available "real estate" left to add holes.

You can probably special order the version of the panel with the
enclosure that does not include knockouts. I haven't had to do that for
a panel, but I routinely do that for pull boxes and troughs and use step
drills and hydraulic punches to put the exact hole config I want in.

Residential panels, at least here in Canada are not available
unpunched. Special oder means BIG BUCKS and LONG WAIT TIMES.

That's one nice thing about the Square D QO series, it's routinely used
in commercial applications as well as residential so there are more
options available.

On 11/13/2011 1:18 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:12:44 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/12/2011 2:57 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:11:15 -0600,
wrote:

Let me try again. Did the licensed electricians "molest" my mother's old
house? Does your FUD include work done by electricians?

That depends an awfull lot on the "electrician", doesn't it????

There you have it - electricians in Canada molest houses.

Here they do quality work that is inspected.
I've seen some AWFULL electrical work in Florida - done and inspected

Obviously gfretwell's fault.

--
bud--

Note Bud proclaims LOTS of stuff but when it comes down to it I stand
by the overwhelming number of links stating its hard to impossible to
get homeowners insurance with K&T and fuse boxes just to name a few.
Perhaps some do find insurance thats much more costly just like bad
drivers can buy insurance only at horendously high premiums. I linked
and pasted that the NEC prohibits insulating around K&T

Wonder how many years ago bud sold moms house? if he tried selling it
today his story may be different....

On 11/14/2011 10:09 AM, bob haller wrote:
Note Bud proclaims LOTS of stuff but when it comes down to it I stand
by the overwhelming number of links


Your post is totally unrelated to Pete's.

But yes - thank you for bringing back my all time favorite:
"the wires in knob-and-tube are aluminum" which is a problem because
copper and aluminum "carry current at slightly different speeds" and
"copper into aluminum is where things get tricky - if the water
(current) flows faster thru copper than thru aluminum, you are going to
get a backup at that junction."

(By the way, you never answered Bub's questions about electrons backing
up. I want to know too.)

And another favorite:
"no ground wire, [makes] the use of GFCI style electrical outlets
(receptacles) and GFCI and AFCI breakers useless".

They really sum up your quality arguments.

By the way - you never said - does your house meet current NEC codes for
new construction?
Are most of the breakers AFCI?
Is all your romex 90 degree rated NM-B?
Is there a neutral at all your switches?
Are most of the inside receptacles child proof?
Are the exterior receptacles weather proof?
Do you have an exterior receptacle in the front and back?
Does every 6 feet of wall have a receptacle? (I didn't even know that
was in the NEC!)
Are receptacles kept off circuits with lights? (Didn't know that was in
the code either!)
Do you have a Ufer earthing electrode?
Do boxes have light fixture or fan rating?

I am really concerned whether your house is "truly safe".

And all you a.h.r landlords - I know you won't sleep at night if your
rental units have the gross defects above.
hallerb and I want everyone to be "truly safe".


In this thread hallerb got wrong:
- Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
- you can't get insurance for fuses
- you can never get insurance for K&T
- you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
- there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
- there are no boxes with K&T
- if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
- homes with K&T can't be insulated
- "posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"
- everyone's house should comply with current NEC requirements for new
construction
- you can't add major appliances to a 100A service

But when you have a fetish who cares about a few mistakes.

--
bud--