Insurers keep a secret history of your home
A huge database not only tracks claims, it also looks for risks --
which could cause dropped coverage and other nightmares for
homeowners.

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IndexDiscuss in a Message BoardDigg This By Liz Pulliam Weston
You probably know that it's not a good idea to make too many claims on
your homeowners insurance policy, because your insurer could drop you.

What you might not know is that a claim could make selling your home
more difficult down the road. What's more, you could find your home's
value damaged or a sale jeopardized even if a previous owner, and not
you, made a claim.

Insurers increasingly are using a huge industry database, called the
Comprehensive Loss Underwriting Exchange, or CLUE, to drop or deny
coverage based on a home's history of claims or damage reports.

Insurance companies are terrified of rising losses from water and mold
damage. So a single report of water-related problems may be enough for
insurers to shun your home.

Jan and Kevin Garder of Bremerton, Wash., discovered this the hard
way. The Garders thought they were doing the right thing when they
told their insurance company, State Farm, about some minor water
damage caused by a rainstorm last year.

Consumers held hostage
The couple, who say they had been with their insurer for 30 years
without filing a claim, ultimately decided not to file one this time,
either.

That didn't stop State Farm from dropping them as customers, they say.
Not only that, but they say State Farm also shared the damage
information with the CLUE database. When the Garders applied for
coverage elsewhere, the other insurers cited State Farm's damage
report as the reason they wouldn't write a policy, Jan Garder said.

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:
Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:
On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:





Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones.........

http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyHtYTDwGYY

Heres a you tube video about K&T hazards...... perhaps thats more buds
speed

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:
On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:





Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit
breaker plant in beaver pa.

a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I
was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from
high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.

heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know
you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want
to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2
years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years
was let go

breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more
sensitive over time.....

if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the
circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.

wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:20:19 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

IF it is Kosher to run the panel on it's side (half the breakers
upside-down) - which it APPEARS to be in Ontario, the only wires that
are going to be an issue are the incoming neutral, and the ground.
Both will be abouit 6 inches short. The double set-screw tubular
splice or the split-bolt "BUG" are both solutions to those two.

I prefer the tubular splices for neatness in a panel since they don't
make a huge inline lump. Bugs are good if it's just in a big junction
box. If the panel is installed sideways, the door isn't going to work
very well.

Ever see a door on an FPE panel??

Only the one on the POS Stab-Loc I threw out here and replaced with a
proper QO panel.




If the busses are AL, it's a crummy panel. The SquareD QO panels are
solid copper busses (tin plated) and are mostly covered vs. exposed
competition.

ALL of the power busses on the FPE are covered - and the QO are
tinned copper, but the Homeline and most other brands are AL.

QO is all I use for my personal projects. The cost difference is pretty
small really.

On 11/8/2011 12:00 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:06 pm, wrote:

He is also CORRECT that FULLY insulating a house with K&T wiring is a
serious problem.

Cite.

The head electrical inspector here has said no record of hazard was
found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added
around them.

Hallerb's source, a state agency, in his state, insulates over K&T.

Where is your evidence?

--
bud--

well my best friend had a 100 year old soldered K&T connection fry. he
happened to go in the basement and smell the odor. if that connection
had been buried in insulation it would of been a fire for certain.

Anecdotal evidence proves astrology works.


bud if insulating K&T is fine why did all the insulating contractors
at the pittsburgh homeshow flat out refuse to do it for safety
reasons?

I wasn't there and didn't talk to them.

Why does a state agency in your state insulate over K&T?


you also ignore the posts here from insurance workers statements about
K&T being uninsurable

What posts?

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

On 11/8/2011 12:24 PM, bob haller wrote:


He is also CORRECT that FULLY insulating a house with K&T wiring is a
serious problem.

Cite.

The head electrical inspector here has said no record of hazard was
found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added
around them.

Hallerb's source, a state agency, in his state, insulates over K&T.

Where is your evidence?


https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...ebhp&source=hp
&q=knob+and+tube+wiring+safety+hazards&pbx=1&oq=kn ob+and+tube+wiring+safety&aq=1v
&aqi=g1g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=0l0l1l8120l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l l0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb
&fp=957e6826046888e5&biw=1134&bih=601

Looking at the first 10:
K&T "is not inherently dangerous".

Some said insulation over K&T was a fire hazard - with no basis for the
statement.
Based on reality - California and Washington did not find a single fire
that was attributed to insulation over K&T. Both allow insulation over
K&T. (They are not the only ones.)

A PA state agency insulates over K&T.


And there is the head electrical inspector for Minneapolis who said no
record of hazard was found in the large number of K&T installations that
had insulation added around them.

Still missing - any reason to believe insulating over K&T is a problem
based on the record of the huge number of houses that have been insulated.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

On 11/8/2011 8:25 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 8, 7:31 pm, wrote:
On Nov 8, 2:48 pm, bob wrote:





Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan-

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.


Cite.

Your FUD is that K&T is old.
Do OLD breakers still work mechanically? Corrosion?
What can happen to a fuse?
I agree with Evan. So does clare.

But that is irrelevant.

As already stated, my State Farm agent said 100A fused service are not
likely a problem. (Insurance companies are likely to want at least a
100A service - fused or CB.)

From clare
"Well, I work every morning at a general insurance brokerage office. A
REAL one, not a state-farm office. No problem with fuse panel (with
inspection certificate )"

Your FUD about fuses is just your fetish. There is no evidence it is
shared by any insurance companies.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:
bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

On 11/8/2011 5:45 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 08 Nov 2011 11:06:29 -0600,
wrote:

He is also CORRECT that FULLY insulating a house with K&T wiring is a
serious problem.

Cite.

The head electrical inspector here has said no record of hazard was
found in the large number of K&T installations that had insulation added
around them.

Hallerb's source, a state agency, in his state, insulates over K&T.

Where is your evidence?
How about 3 1/2 hours a day in a general insurance brokerage??? If
you have cast iron waste pipes, galvanized water pipes, OR K&T wiring
up here you WILL have serious problems getting insurance. Same with a
60 amp service (which was a BIG service for most houses wit K&T
wiring.)

Completely irrelevant.


If you have aluminum wiring you need an electrical inspection and
certificate before they will insure the house. Select electricians are
authourized to provide the inspections.

Completely irrelevant.


Just because no "record of hazard" was found by a local electrical
inspector does not mean an insurance company, or even MANY insurance
companies, will not have a problem with insulation around K&T wiring -
or even that many insulation installers' insurance companies may not
have a problem with the insulation contractors installing insulation
around them.

No "record of hazard" was found by the HEAD ELECTRICAL INSPECTOR FOR
MINNEAPOLIS. A lot of insulation has been installed over K&T in
Minneapolis. It was installed in my mothers old house over 40 years ago.
If there was a fire hazard the chief electrical inspector would know
about it.

From hallerb we get California and Washington did not find a single
fire that was attributed to insulation over K&T.

But maybe fires just happen in Canada.

I am interested in the US.

--
bud--

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

On 11/9/2011 6:00 AM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyHtYTDwGYY

Heres a you tube video about K&T hazards...... perhaps thats more buds
speed

Another anecdote?

I don't watch youtube.

--
bud--

On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.


Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the power cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.

On Nov 9, 8:09*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600, bud--
wrote:





On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

*Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.


no insurance company will want to insure a home that violates the
NEC.........

On Nov 9, 8:09*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600, bud--
wrote:





On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

*Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a unmolestted K&T home likely has just ONE OUTLET PER ROOM, this
forces the resident to use extension cords, which are a major fire
hazard of their own.

The NEC requires one outlet for every 6 feet of wall, to minimize the
number of extension cords in use.

On Nov 9, 10:08*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

*Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the *power *cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion

a unmolestted K&T home likely has just ONE OUTLET PER ROOM, this
forces the resident to use extension cords, which are a major fire
hazard of their own.

The NEC requires one outlet for every 6 feet of wall, to minimize the
number of extension cords in use.-


and extension cords are a trip hazard too. a visitor could easily trip
on a extension cord.......

all ecause someone refused to replace their aged 100 year old K&T
wiring. The hazards are more than just fire ones.

On Nov 9, 2:30*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

from MSN money.....

Knob and tube? Time to rewire
Knob-and-tube wiring was the main method of electrical wiring from the
1880s through the 1930s, lasting even into the 1950s. Back then, a
single outlet per room was common, and the average household's few
appliances didn't collectively suck much power.

What concerns insurers is the strain that today's power-hungry
appliances place on older wiring. Knob-and-tube wiring typically
doesn't have a ground, and you're not supposed to use modern three-
hole outlets unless the ground is functional.


Problems getting homeowners insurance
Fuse boxes, which often accompanied older wiring, pose another
problem. As a safety feature, the fuses have thin slivers of metal
designed to "blow" when too much electricity courses through them,
shutting off power. But homeowners occasionally try to beat the system
and keep the electricity flowing by sticking pennies, which are much
thicker, into the fuse sockets. Doing so makes the wiring inside a
house's walls hot -- so hot that the house could catch fire.

Good luck convincing an insurance agent that you would never try
this.

Some regular carriers will cover you without making you tear out all
your knob-and-tube wiring. They can live with it running between a
wall switch and overhead lights, assuming you've otherwise rewired
with grounded outlets for power-hungry appliances such as microwave
ovens, TVs and hair dryers.

The bad news: Paying for those upgrades, plus a new circuit breaker,
costs thousands of dollars. So "affordable" insurance doesn't
necessarily come cheap.

Bottom line: Most carriers consider extensive knob-and-tube wiring a
fire hazard and won't insure a house that has it

On Nov 9, 2:30*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

Electrical distribution fuse panels, as shown in Figure 2 have become
obsolete and in many jurisdictions a homeowner cannot get home
insurance if they have an old style fuse panel installed.



Figure 2 - House fuse panel

Although a properly installed fuse panel is safe, insurance companies
see the convenience to over size the fuse on a circuit as a potential
hazard.

I am going to save this discussion for future reference. it has many
good links, and other than BUD few appear to disagree.

the days of K&T, fuse panels, and lots of other obsolete stuff make
getting homeowners insurance difficult to impossible, and thus add
tons of hassles at home resale time......

no doubt ultimately decreasing your homes sale price a lot.

similiar to selling a home with a 30 year old failed roof

On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:



On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones.........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)


Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan

On Nov 9, 7:32*am, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:



On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit
breaker plant in beaver pa.

a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I
was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from
high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.

heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know
you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want
to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2
years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years
was let go

breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more
sensitive over time.....

if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the
circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.

LOL...

Bob, a breaker which is exposed to continuous (tiny) overcurrent
situations is a lot more likely to simply deform inside and fail in
the circuit CLOSED position...

Especially the older the breaker gets and even more likely in
adverse environmental conditions... (High Humidity, High Heat)

I take it you have never seen the results of failed circuit breakers
in the form of melty/welded/destroyed bus bars inside a breaker
panel... Those sort of situations are just as likely to cause a
fire as an improperly sized fuse... That is why thermographic
surveys of circuit breaker panels under load are done in larger
buildings to assess the heat conditions present in the panels
and determine when they should be replaced or upgraded...

Fuses blow out and won't allow an unskilled/incompetent person
to keep resetting them even when an overload condition is still
present in the circuit until the problem has been resolved...
People stop trying to replace fuses and call an electrician after
the 2nd blows out immediately after screwing it in...

~~ Evan

On Nov 10, 11:36*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:





On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones.........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)

Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... *That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? *Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12
gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.

On Nov 10, 11:44*am, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:36*am, Evan wrote:



On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones.........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)

Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... *That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? *Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12
gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.

The whole point Bob, is that homeowners doing a project on
their own don't pull permits and the installation never gets
inspected again by someone who knows what they are doing
until an electricians pulls a permit to do a job that would be
inspected -- most small and minor jobs where a permit is
allowed to be pulled after the fact never get inspected at all...

~~ Evan

On Nov 10, 11:48*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:44*am, bob haller wrote:





On Nov 10, 11:36*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones..........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)

Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... *That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? *Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12
gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.

The whole point Bob, is that homeowners doing a project on
their own don't pull permits and the installation never gets
inspected again by someone who knows what they are doing
until an electricians pulls a permit to do a job that would be
inspected -- most small and minor jobs where a permit is
allowed to be pulled after the fact never get inspected at all...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

but at home resale time home inspectors and insurance inspectors check
things out to one degree or another.

lots of issues are caught some totally bogus

replacing a breaker if the wire is undersized is cheap fix.


now try to sell home thats not today elegible for homeowners
insurance....

the buyer either walks away, and the defect must be added to the homes
disclosure form. that kills future sales

or the buyer requires a licensed pro fix whatever, with receipts

before home is put on market owner is free to do what they
want .........

as long as it passes inspection by home inspector / insurance inspector

On Nov 10, 11:44*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 9, 7:32*am, bob haller wrote:





On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit
breaker plant in beaver pa.

a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I
was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from
high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.

heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know
you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want
to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2
years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years
was let go

breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more
sensitive over time.....

if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the
circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.

LOL...

Bob, a breaker which is exposed to continuous (tiny) overcurrent
situations is a lot more likely to simply deform inside and fail in
the circuit CLOSED position...

Especially the older the breaker gets and even more likely in
adverse environmental conditions... *(High Humidity, High Heat)

I take it you have never seen the results of failed circuit breakers
in the form of melty/welded/destroyed bus bars inside a breaker
panel... *Those sort of situations are just as likely to cause a
fire as an improperly sized fuse... *That is why thermographic
surveys of circuit breaker panels under load are done in larger
buildings to assess the heat conditions present in the panels
and determine when they should be replaced or upgraded...

Fuses blow out and won't allow an unskilled/incompetent person
to keep resetting them even when an overload condition is still
present in the circuit until the problem has been resolved...
People stop trying to replace fuses and call an electrician after
the 2nd blows out immediately after screwing it in...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as i statred before breakers are designed to fail, by tripping at
lower currents.......

if many truly never tripped the lawsuits would put the company out of
business ,,,,,, oh wait that already happened to FPE

On 11/10/2011 9:22 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 9, 2:30 pm, wrote:
On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

from MSN money.....

Still no source link

Still no context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated
"posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"

--
bud--

On 11/10/2011 9:25 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 9, 2:30 pm, wrote:
On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

--
bud--

Electrical distribution fuse panels, as shown in Figure 2 have become
obsolete and in many jurisdictions a homeowner cannot get home
insurance if they have an old style fuse panel installed.

No source.

No context.

My State Farm insurance agent said there would probably not be a problem
with a 100A fused service.

That blows your FUD.

Clare said the agency he is associated with does not have a particular
problem with fuses.

That blows your FUD.

Driving around I see a lot of 60A services - which will in all
probability be fused. Inconceivable that the houses are not insured.

That blows your FUD.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated
"posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"

Fetishes can be disabling. Maybe you could get counseling.

--
bud--

On 11/9/2011 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....


Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated


Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

The NEC is applicable only as it is adopted by a local jurisdiction.

From wikipedia - one of hallerb's links
"California and Washington, as well as possibly other states, have
actually reversed the ruling on insulation around K&T. They did not find
a single fire that was attributed to K&T"

Last I read there were at least 5 entire states that allow insulating
over K&T. PA was not listed, but a state agency (hallerb's link)
insulates over K&T. Some states don't have a code at the state level.


Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

How do you know what the practice is in the US? Or all of Canada?
Do you use a Ouija board, like hallerb?


An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

"Exceedingly rare"?
Your opinion.

I haven't seen particular K&T horror stories.
I have seen some other wiring with horror stories.
I ran a service truck for years and was in a huge number of houses.

Perhaps you and hallerb could stop generalizing your opinions to the
whole USA

--
bud--

On 11/9/2011 10:16 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 9, 8:09 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:





On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.


no insurance company will want to insure a home that violates the
NEC.........


From one of your links - California did not find "a single fire" from
insulated K&T.

California allows insulating over K&T (as do many other jurisdictions.)

It is real unlikely that California allows insurance companies to not
insure insulated K&T when the state found no problem.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated
"posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"

Maybe your Ouija board needs to be repaired.

--
bud--

On 11/10/2011 6:19 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 9, 8:09 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600,
wrote:





On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a unmolestted K&T home likely has just ONE OUTLET PER ROOM, this
forces the resident to use extension cords, which are a major fire
hazard of their own.

You are creating a straw man to support your FUD.

K&T around here probably all had a 30A service. I have not seen one of
them for maybe 40 years. If the service was replaced the electrical was
upgraded. My mothers old house was upgraded about 50 years ago. Circuits
and receptacles were added in the kitchen, bathroom and laundry.
Receptacles were also added in some other rooms.

In any case, my State Farm agent said houses with some K&T could be
insured here.

That simply blows your argument that you can't get insurance.

And others have said they didn't have a problem.

That blows your argument.

Of course you ignore all that - your fetish requires it.


The NEC requires one outlet for every 6 feet of wall, to minimize the
number of extension cords in use.

The NEC applies to new wiring and changes every 3 years.


In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated
"posts here from insurance workers statements about K&T being uninsurable"

--
bud--

On Nov 10, 12:05*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:44*am, Evan wrote:



On Nov 9, 7:32*am, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For many years I spent a lot of time at the westinghouse circuit
breaker plant in beaver pa.

a fascinating place, i became a kinda employee or one of the guys. I
was there for tests that rocked the building they made everything from
high voltage distribution stuff to home main breakers.

heck they offered me a job too, no interview needed. they said we know
you your hired, just drop application at reception, when do you want
to start? i declined the offer, which turned out a good decision, 2
years later they had massive layoffs, everyone with less than 20 years
was let go

breakers are all designed to fail trip early, that is they become more
sensitive over time.....

if you have a breaker that trips a lot just try replacing it, the
circuit may be fine, the breaker is likely at fault.

LOL...

Bob, a breaker which is exposed to continuous (tiny) overcurrent
situations is a lot more likely to simply deform inside and fail in
the circuit CLOSED position...

Especially the older the breaker gets and even more likely in
adverse environmental conditions... *(High Humidity, High Heat)

I take it you have never seen the results of failed circuit breakers
in the form of melty/welded/destroyed bus bars inside a breaker
panel... *Those sort of situations are just as likely to cause a
fire as an improperly sized fuse... *That is why thermographic
surveys of circuit breaker panels under load are done in larger
buildings to assess the heat conditions present in the panels
and determine when they should be replaced or upgraded...

Fuses blow out and won't allow an unskilled/incompetent person
to keep resetting them even when an overload condition is still
present in the circuit until the problem has been resolved...
People stop trying to replace fuses and call an electrician after
the 2nd blows out immediately after screwing it in...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

as i statred before breakers are designed to fail, by tripping at
lower currents.......

if many truly never tripped the lawsuits would put the company out of
business ,,,,,, oh wait that already happened to FPE

@Bob:

Really ?

Most any product I have ever purchased must be used PROPERLY
for any sort of liability to attach to the manufacturer...

A circuit breaker being used under a tiny amount of overload
constantly
is not being used properly (think improperly tightened electrical
connections or a high resistance short to ground) because the wiring
does not conform to "best practices" within the trade and has
not been maintained properly...

You can't blame the manufacturer for something being used outside
of its tested limits or that was inaccurately selected or installed by
the homeowner... All of the liability rests with the homeowner in
that situation...

~~ Evan

On Nov 10, 11:58*am, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:48*am, Evan wrote:



On Nov 10, 11:44*am, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 10, 11:36*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones..........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)

Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... *That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? *Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12
gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.

The whole point Bob, is that homeowners doing a project on
their own don't pull permits and the installation never gets
inspected again by someone who knows what they are doing
until an electricians pulls a permit to do a job that would be
inspected -- most small and minor jobs where a permit is
allowed to be pulled after the fact never get inspected at all...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

but at home resale time home inspectors and insurance inspectors check
things out to one degree or another.

lots of issues are caught some totally bogus

replacing a breaker if the wire is undersized is cheap fix.

now try to sell home thats not today elegible for homeowners
insurance....

the buyer either walks away, and the defect must be added to the homes
disclosure form. that kills future sales

or the buyer requires a licensed pro fix whatever, with receipts

before home is put on market owner is free to do what they
want .........

as long as it passes inspection by home inspector / insurance inspector

@Bob:

I have never seen a home inspector strip wires or pull apart
functioning
electrical equipment BECAUSE a home inspector is NOT a licensed
electrician... Nor have I ever seen a home inspector measure wire
size ever...

A home inspector is looking for things that are clearly and openly
wrong, like wiring being run improperly in basements which could
be used by idiots to hang stuff from... Or junction boxes without
cover plates... Or load panels that have no markings to indicate
which breakers serve which areas of the home...

They open up the cover on a panel and judge it visually...
If it looks like a mess, they document...
If things look loose or improperly attached, they document...

The home inspection company will send out an actual licensed
electrician in that jurisdiction who will have the final word on any
sort of "deficiencies" noted by the home inspector who isn't
licensed in that trade...

~~ Evan

On Nov 10, 11:58*am, bob haller wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:48*am, Evan wrote:



On Nov 10, 11:44*am, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 10, 11:36*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

The one situation that will really leave you with little in the way of
options is if the wiring in your home is so old as to be so dangerous
that no insurance company will touch it with a 20 foot pole. In the
earliest days of electrical wiring, bare conductor was looped around
insulating knobs hammered into beams. This configuration, known as
knob-and-tube wiring, was so unsafe it was rapidly replaced by wires
sheathed in metal and cellulose; and yet there are still homes in the
oldest parts of Washington DC and its suburbs where electricians may
find it still in use today. If in the process of buying a home, a home
inspector finds that knob-and-tube wiring, it is unlikely you will be
able to find an insurance company willing to provide coverage for the
house

Umm... *Bob, I hate to rain on your parade, but fuses are actually
much safer as overcurrent devices than circuit breakers, as fuses
can not fail in the "circuit closed" position like circuit breakers
tend
to do...

Fuses are frequently used down stream of a circuit breaker in a panel
to provide the protection to the DEVICE being used rather than to
protect the wiring like a circuit breaker...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

insurance companies dont look at it this way, far too many people
overfuse, so as to prevent blown fuses.

so based on this insurance does not like fuses.

apparently few people change breakers to higher current ones..........

That's bull**** if I have ever heard it...

Just amongst the friends and family I know personally I have
seen too small a size wire used with too big a circuit breaker
because most people don't know what they are doing with
electrical wiring...

I.E.:

A #14 wire run to power a single outlet but it has a 20-amp breaker

(The total length of the run of the wire is important in determining
wire size but so is the rating of the overcurrent protection)

Also, you might have a point about over fusing, however, used
properly you can't screw the wrong type of fuse into a socket
which has one of those reducer rings inside it to restrict it for
a higher rated fuse... *That is why the idea for tamper proof
fuses came about...

But in reality there isn't much from stopping a homeowner from
pulling the fuse block and screwing in a penny behind the fuse,
is there ?

Just like there are only 4 to 6 cover plate screws which serve
as a warning to most homeowners not to tamper with their
load centers if they don't know what they are doing...

Hey, why should they buy that other bundle of wire which
costs more but is the correct one to be used when this one
here is cheaper ? *Because they don't know any better...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thats pretty easy to catch on inspection, either replace wire with 12
gauge, or put in 15 amp breaker and 15 amp outlet.

The whole point Bob, is that homeowners doing a project on
their own don't pull permits and the installation never gets
inspected again by someone who knows what they are doing
until an electricians pulls a permit to do a job that would be
inspected -- most small and minor jobs where a permit is
allowed to be pulled after the fact never get inspected at all...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

but at home resale time home inspectors and insurance inspectors check
things out to one degree or another.

lots of issues are caught some totally bogus

replacing a breaker if the wire is undersized is cheap fix.

now try to sell home thats not today elegible for homeowners
insurance....

the buyer either walks away, and the defect must be added to the homes
disclosure form. that kills future sales

or the buyer requires a licensed pro fix whatever, with receipts

before home is put on market owner is free to do what they
want .........

as long as it passes inspection by home inspector / insurance inspector

I just have to say this here Bob...

LOL... At all of your resale issue crap...

Foreclosed homes sell for pennies on the dollar, cash sale, as is, no
warranties expressed nor implied, buyer beware... That means the
bank is not liable for any liens or back taxes or anything else they
were not aware of that were attached to the property -- buyer really
needs to do "due diligence" which is often overlooked...

What do you think you are getting when you buy a $350k home
for $90k cash...

The few "normal" home sales that would be disrupted by the issues
you raise are so small in number that statistically your concerns
become irrelevant...

More people are disqualified from the ability to buy a home because
of the stricter standards on loaning money these days than are
ever bumped out of a sale because of any sort of wiring issue in a
house...

~~ Evan

On Nov 10, 2:28*pm, Evan wrote:
On Nov 10, 11:58*am, bob haller wrote:





On Nov 10, 11:48*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 10, 11:44*am, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 10, 11:36*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 9:25*pm, bob haller wrote:

On Nov 8, 7:31*pm, Evan wrote:

On Nov 8, 2:48*pm, bob haller wrote:

Chances are replacing the fuse box with a circuit breaker could reduce
your home owner’s insurance policy markedly. Because fuses are
outdated, insurance companies look at a house with a fuse box and see
an electrical fire waiting to happen. Right there, your rates go up,
and homeowners have a big incentive to toss out the fuse box.

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 04:36:47 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 9, 10:08Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 20:09:43 -0500, wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 13:36:48 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 11/8/2011 8:36 PM, bob haller wrote:
http://www.pct.edu/wtc/docs/articles...Report_WTC.pdf

this PDF details as age of homes increase so does fire rate, and has
info on 3 home fire traced back to K&T encapsulated in insulation....

Three fires out of 149 in what the survey source says was not a valid
"probability sample".
The report says "knob and tube wiring only played a small role in the
incidents of fire in this study".

What reason is there to believe that K&T is significantly more hazardous
than other wiring methods? Still missing.

Of course you don't read and understand what you post.
This is the same report I have referred to several times already. It
says "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent
fire hazard." And this is the agency that insulates over K&T - in your
state.

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

Bud,
The national electrical and building codes IN THE USA do NOT allow
insulation over/arounf K&T.

Insurance underwriters do not allow (in most cases) houses with K&T
wiring.

An unmolested K&T wiring system, even if surrounded by insulation,
would, in all probability, not cause a fire dsnger - but UNMOLESTED
K&T systems are EXCEDINGLY rare - and any poorly made modifications,
dangerous enough when in open air, and open to be found and repaired
if a problem develops, are hidden in (often flammable) insulation,
where if a problem develops the first sign is smoke.

Â*Got my "service layout" from WNH this afternoon. Need to put in a new
meter base and I'm limitted to 125 amps with the existing underground
service. About $1700 to WNH plus trenching to get it up to 200 amps.

If I stick with 100 to 125, all it will cost me is about $73 for the
disconnect/reconnect, and the new meter base over and above the panel
replacement, and the new meter box installation will allow me to raise
the Â*power Â*cable entry to the panel by the required 4".
Panel replacement by licenced electrician, including Seimens panel
(the electrician's favourite - don't know why) is $750 so it will
likely be scheduled soon.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

check price for a 200 amp panel with smaller main breaker...... it may
not be much more and leaves room for expansion
I can buy a 100 amp panel with 42 breakers. Any reason I would
poeeibly want more than that in a house that measures 22X30
feet???????

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:25:32 -0800 (PST), bob haller
wrote:

On Nov 9, 2:30Â*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 11/8/2011 1:50 PM, bob haller wrote:

bud is this enough or would you like more pastes and links about fuse
boxes and K&T and not being able to obtain homowners insurance.....

are you convinced?

No source.

No context.

Quoted by someone with a fetish.

Nope

In this thread you have got wrong:
Clare needed to convert to breakers because of homeowners insurance.
you can't get insurance for fuses
you can never get insurance for K&T
you can never get insurance for K&T from State Farm
there is a "great chance of a loss" (K&T is intrinsically unsafe)
there are no boxes with K&T
if you open a wall with K&T it is "mandatory to upgrade"
homes with K&T can't be insulated

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bud--

Electrical distribution fuse panels, as shown in Figure 2 have become
obsolete and in many jurisdictions a homeowner cannot get home
insurance if they have an old style fuse panel installed.


Ols style meaning 6 or 8 circuit 60 amp service. A 12 circuit or
better 100 amo panel is insurable just about anywhere in North
America, unless it is in a vdery large house.


Figure 2 - House fuse panel

Although a properly installed fuse panel is safe, insurance companies
see the convenience to over size the fuse on a circuit as a potential
hazard.