I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

On Oct 29, 9:32*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

It is clear that this project is beyond your skill level...

First you are looking for a panel with an identical layout to the
one you have installed now... -1...

Second you had not thought at all about removing your present
fuse box guts and using it as a junction box, extending all of
the existing wires through conduits to a new circuit breaker
panel installed next to the existing one, then obtaining a piece
of sheet metal of the proper thickness to correctly cover
the old fuse box...

Then there is no fusing around with any of the old wiring
removing them from the old panel and installing them into
the new one, old wires sometimes lose their flexibility and
it would really suck to have to trace circuits back and
install new home runs or have to work with many junction boxes
out and away from the panel...

Call an electrician to do this for you...

~~ Evan

On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:45:27 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Oct 29, 9:32Â*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Â*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
Â*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

It is clear that this project is beyond your skill level...

Au contraire my friend

First you are looking for a panel with an identical layout to the
one you have installed now... -1...

Second you had not thought at all about removing your present
fuse box guts and using it as a junction box, extending all of
the existing wires through conduits to a new circuit breaker
panel installed next to the existing one, then obtaining a piece
of sheet metal of the proper thickness to correctly cover
the old fuse box...

Not an option Not enough space, and besides that it would look like
heck as well. Would sure turn off any future buyer.

Then there is no fusing around with any of the old wiring
removing them from the old panel and installing them into
the new one, old wires sometimes lose their flexibility and
it would really suck to have to trace circuits back and
install new home runs or have to work with many junction boxes
out and away from the panel...

Not a chance. The wire is in VERY good condition. And I've done a LOT
of this work in the past. Used to work wit my dad, who was an
electrician, and actually wired this house back in the early
seventies.
Call an electrician to do this for you...

~~ Evan
Even if I decided to get an electrician to do the job I am the one
choosing what goes in and what it is going to look like when it is
done. I know there are lots of ways this can be done that would be FAR
less than optimal. Anything less tha RIGHT, it will stay the way it is
- because there is nothing WRONG with it the way it is. In 30 years
the only fuses I've had to replace have been from jamming the table
saw or starting the compressor when it was too cold and stiff.

ANd it DOES still have 2 spare circuits available.

I do know, however, that any half-assed home inspector hired by a
future buyer would flag the fused panel. And I've never met a home
inspector that was anything better than half-assed - period. They pick
on small unimportant stuff and miss the big expensive important stuff.

"you don't want this house, there's no dish washer, and the switch
plate in the bathroom is cracked" and they don't catch the bad grading
that causes water to flood into window wells in heavy rain, or the
blistered cast iron drain stack, or even the extention cords, or even
telephone wire, used to wire the rec room. Went through that before we
bought this place 30 years ago without an inspection. I checked this
place myself and no problems I wasn't aware of. I knew the windows
were cheap contractor windows that would eventually need replacing,
along with the roof - I replaced the roof 7 years later, and the
windows starting after 15 years, finishing this year.

On Oct 29, 9:32*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear
fine 40 years is a long time

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the
main amp rating the more the number of circuits.

your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if
needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for
metal recycling.

do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and
proper permitting.

or have endless hassles at home sale time

wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.


The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I've never seen a panel installed sideways in the US. Main up or main
down are both very common though.

I recommend using a SquareD QO series panel (not Homeline), they are
about the best available and are all I use for my personal jobs.

wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

The best answers to your questions will come from the local inspector that will
have to approve the work. My experience is that they are happy to talk to you
about your proposal, and will suggest things that will help you pass inspection.
If you do it the way they say, your likelyhood of avoiding problems goes up
significantly.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:13:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Oct 29, 9:32Â*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Â*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
Â*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard
It is 100 and will likely stay that way.

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear
fine 40 years is a long time
The meter can is totally separate from the service panel, and the
panel is in a dry semi-finished area - like new inside and out.

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the
main amp rating the more the number of circuits.
The current main panel supports 2 cartrige blocks for stove and range,
as well as 20 standard "plug" fuses. currently there are 2 spare
circuits in the panel. This is equivalent to a 24 circuoit breaker
panel.

the StabLok 100 amp load centers are available with 16 to 40 circuits

your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if
needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

It's an underground service

FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for
metal recycling.



do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and
proper permitting.


The good ones do. Most of them up here are half blind and stupid.
And if properly installed, they would not be able t tell it had been
replaced in the last 10 years. However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.
or have endless hassles at home sale time

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

IF it is Kosher to run the panel on it's side (half the breakers
upside-down) - which it APPEARS to be in Ontario, the only wires that
are going to be an issue are the incoming neutral, and the ground.
Both will be abouit 6 inches short. The double set-screw tubular
splice or the split-bolt "BUG" are both solutions to those two.
The old banel has a 3 connection "ground" buss to which both the
ground and neutral are connected, as well as the neutral from the main
switch to the fuse panel. ( the main switch and the fuse panel are
like 2 totally separate boxes in one physical enclosure - with cables
in between - so I have lots of salvageable cable to extend the
neutrals)

The existing panel is WAY to big to leave as a junction box as another
respondent recommended. It's about 23X26 inches and between a window
and a wall, where mounting the new panel beside it would be
ugly/difficult/nigh unto impossible and probably illegal.

Using a chunk of wiring trough above the panel WOULD be an option but
would also involve transitioning virtually every wire from AL to CU.
Sinse all the busses etc in the new panel are AL I'd prefer to keep
the original AL wire intact all the way. No dis-similar metal
connections instead of 2.
I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.


The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

Horizontal ia apparently no problem, but if vertical operating (either
main or branch) I've been told they must be up-on in the USA.

The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I've never seen a panel installed sideways in the US. Main up or main
down are both very common though.
Most older panels in Canada were "side main" with the switch mounted
"up-on"

I recommend using a SquareD QO series panel (not Homeline), they are
about the best available and are all I use for my personal jobs.
I'll check out the QO to see if it is as adaptable as the StabLok. I
KNOW it is significantly more expensive - but the price is not really
part of the decision process at this point.

Thanks for your good input.

On Oct 30, 9:36*am, wrote:
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:13:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Oct 29, 9:32*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard

It is 100 and will likely stay that way.

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear
fine 40 years is a long time

*The meter can is totally separate from the service panel, and the
panel is in *a dry semi-finished area - like new inside and out.

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the
main amp rating the more the number of circuits.

The current main panel supports 2 cartrige blocks for stove and range,
as well as 20 standard "plug" fuses. currently there are 2 spare
circuits in the panel. This is equivalent to a 24 circuoit breaker
panel.

*the StabLok 100 amp load centers are available with 16 to 40 circuits



your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if
needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

*It's an underground service



FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for
metal recycling.

do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and
proper permitting.

*The good ones do. Most of them up here are half blind and stupid.
And if properly installed, they would not be able t tell it had been
replaced in the last 10 years. However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.



or have endless hassles at home sale time- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

obviously you have ruled out a upgrade to 200 amps.

What your missing is a perspective buyer may anticipate a lifestyle
requiring more than 100 amps.

So the buyer and home inspector have this conversation.

The main panel is new and looks perfect, but the main entrance cable
is a underground line probably dating back to the time the home was
built. that cable may be in poor condition, its underground. and in
any case its limited to 100 amps, just half of the typical new service
today...

the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have
just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet.......

However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

thanks you point out something I have been posting here for years.

homeowners insurance companies frequentky REQUIRE a inspection before
writing a new policy.....

some posters here claimed this wasnt occuring.

check your home for obvious defencies, things like age and condition
of roof, presence of K&T wiring, your current issue a fuse box, bad
sidewalks, things like trip hazards, overall condition of home, do all
stairs have handrails? any debris under a porch or piled up in yard,
you go away on extended vacations? or snowbird to a winter home?

all of these and more can either raise or homeowners cost or make
getting insurance impossible

On Oct 30, 10:25*am, bob haller wrote:
On Oct 30, 9:36*am, wrote:





On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:13:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Oct 29, 9:32*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard

It is 100 and will likely stay that way.

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear
fine 40 years is a long time

*The meter can is totally separate from the service panel, and the
panel is in *a dry semi-finished area - like new inside and out.

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the
main amp rating the more the number of circuits.

The current main panel supports 2 cartrige blocks for stove and range,
as well as 20 standard "plug" fuses. currently there are 2 spare
circuits in the panel. This is equivalent to a 24 circuoit breaker
panel.

*the StabLok 100 amp load centers are available with 16 to 40 circuits

your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if
needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

*It's an underground service

FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for
metal recycling.

do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and
proper permitting.

*The good ones do. Most of them up here are half blind and stupid.
And if properly installed, they would not be able t tell it had been
replaced in the last 10 years. However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

or have endless hassles at home sale time- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

obviously you have ruled out a upgrade to 200 amps.

What your missing is a perspective buyer may anticipate a lifestyle
requiring more than 100 amps.

So the buyer and home inspector have this conversation.

The main panel is new and looks perfect, but the main entrance cable
is a underground line probably dating back to the time the home was
built. that cable may be in poor condition, its underground. and in
any case its limited to 100 amps, just half of the typical new service
today...

the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have
just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess the key issue would be who pays for the new
200amp underground service and if it's CL, then how
much will it cost? The rest, from meter to panel is
usually not much.

A reasonable alternative could be to put in a panel that
supports 200 amps now when upgrading. Then later,
if he needs 200 or a future buyer bitches, etc, he could address the
service drop part then.

wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

IF it is Kosher to run the panel on it's side (half the breakers
upside-down) - which it APPEARS to be in Ontario, the only wires that
are going to be an issue are the incoming neutral, and the ground.
Both will be abouit 6 inches short. The double set-screw tubular
splice or the split-bolt "BUG" are both solutions to those two.

I prefer the tubular splices for neatness in a panel since they don't
make a huge inline lump. Bugs are good if it's just in a big junction
box. If the panel is installed sideways, the door isn't going to work
very well.

The old banel has a 3 connection "ground" buss to which both the
ground and neutral are connected, as well as the neutral from the main
switch to the fuse panel. ( the main switch and the fuse panel are
like 2 totally separate boxes in one physical enclosure - with cables
in between - so I have lots of salvageable cable to extend the
neutrals)

The existing panel is WAY to big to leave as a junction box as another
respondent recommended. It's about 23X26 inches and between a window
and a wall, where mounting the new panel beside it would be
ugly/difficult/nigh unto impossible and probably illegal.

Using a chunk of wiring trough above the panel WOULD be an option but
would also involve transitioning virtually every wire from AL to CU.

Something best done in a separate space like a trough, using approved
connectors.

Sinse all the busses etc in the new panel are AL I'd prefer to keep
the original AL wire intact all the way. No dis-similar metal
connections instead of 2.

If the busses are AL, it's a crummy panel. The SquareD QO panels are
solid copper busses (tin plated) and are mostly covered vs. exposed
competition.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.


The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

Horizontal ia apparently no problem, but if vertical operating (either
main or branch) I've been told they must be up-on in the USA.

I've never run across such a requirement in the US, but I don't recall
if I've seen an upside down vertical operating main.


The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I've never seen a panel installed sideways in the US. Main up or main
down are both very common though.
Most older panels in Canada were "side main" with the switch mounted
"up-on"

I recommend using a SquareD QO series panel (not Homeline), they are
about the best available and are all I use for my personal jobs.

I'll check out the QO to see if it is as adaptable as the StabLok. I
KNOW it is significantly more expensive - but the price is not really
part of the decision process at this point.

Perhaps 50% more expensive, which for a residential panel and breakers
means about $100 more for the project.


Thanks for your good input.

Good luck.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 06:26:04 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

The best answers to your questions will come from the local inspector that will
have to approve the work. My experience is that they are happy to talk to you
about your proposal, and will suggest things that will help you pass inspection.
If you do it the way they say, your likelyhood of avoiding problems goes up
significantly.


Just checked with my dad (retired electrician, and in failing health)
and he said no problem in Ontario with side mounted panels, and if
people think StabLok breakers are the only ones that fail, he could
tell me about more Square "D" QO horror stories than Stab-Lok - and he
used Stab-Loc (FPE) almost exclusively, with virtually no problems.
He could remember several Square "D" QO breakers that popped the 100
amp main without tripping the 15 - and a few where wires were badly
overheated before the 100 tripped. He never had a Stab-Lok fail that
badly.

Will likely go with the Stab-Lok unless I can find a QO that will fit
as well.
Do need to investigate the LB connection to the panel from the feed
conduit yet too.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 07:25:24 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Oct 30, 9:36Â*am, wrote:
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:13:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:





On Oct 29, 9:32Â*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Â*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
Â*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard

It is 100 and will likely stay that way.

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear
fine 40 years is a long time

Â*The meter can is totally separate from the service panel, and the
panel is in Â*a dry semi-finished area - like new inside and out.

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the
main amp rating the more the number of circuits.

The current main panel supports 2 cartrige blocks for stove and range,
as well as 20 standard "plug" fuses. currently there are 2 spare
circuits in the panel. This is equivalent to a 24 circuoit breaker
panel.

Â*the StabLok 100 amp load centers are available with 16 to 40 circuits



your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if
needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

Â*It's an underground service



FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for
metal recycling.

do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and
proper permitting.

Â*The good ones do. Most of them up here are half blind and stupid.
And if properly installed, they would not be able t tell it had been
replaced in the last 10 years. However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.



or have endless hassles at home sale time- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

obviously you have ruled out a upgrade to 200 amps.

What your missing is a perspective buyer may anticipate a lifestyle
requiring more than 100 amps.

So the buyer and home inspector have this conversation.

The main panel is new and looks perfect, but the main entrance cable
is a underground line probably dating back to the time the home was
built. that cable may be in poor condition, its underground. and in
any case its limited to 100 amps, just half of the typical new service
today...

Actually, Waterloo North Hydro apparently provisioned all of the
houses in this neighbourhood the same - 200 amp feeders.

The house is small enough(1300 square feet) that 200 amps would be
overkill without electric heat. or a heavy duty shop or pottery kiln.

the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have
just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet.......

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 07:49:14 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Oct 30, 10:25Â*am, bob haller wrote:
On Oct 30, 9:36Â*am, wrote:





On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:13:47 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Oct 29, 9:32Â*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Â*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
Â*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard

It is 100 and will likely stay that way.

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear
fine 40 years is a long time

Â*The meter can is totally separate from the service panel, and the
panel is in Â*a dry semi-finished area - like new inside and out.

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the
main amp rating the more the number of circuits.

The current main panel supports 2 cartrige blocks for stove and range,
as well as 20 standard "plug" fuses. currently there are 2 spare
circuits in the panel. This is equivalent to a 24 circuoit breaker
panel.

Â*the StabLok 100 amp load centers are available with 16 to 40 circuits

your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if
needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

Â*It's an underground service

FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for
metal recycling.

do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and
proper permitting.

Â*The good ones do. Most of them up here are half blind and stupid.
And if properly installed, they would not be able t tell it had been
replaced in the last 10 years. However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

or have endless hassles at home sale time- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

obviously you have ruled out a upgrade to 200 amps.

What your missing is a perspective buyer may anticipate a lifestyle
requiring more than 100 amps.

So the buyer and home inspector have this conversation.

The main panel is new and looks perfect, but the main entrance cable
is a underground line probably dating back to the time the home was
built. that cable may be in poor condition, its underground. and in
any case its limited to 100 amps, just half of the typical new service
today...

the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have
just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet.......- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I guess the key issue would be who pays for the new
200amp underground service and if it's CL, then how
much will it cost? The rest, from meter to panel is
usually not much.

About 3 feet of cable in this case.

A reasonable alternative could be to put in a panel that
supports 200 amps now when upgrading. Then later,
if he needs 200 or a future buyer bitches, etc, he could address the
service drop part then.

The difference between a 100A FPE and a 200A FPE is the main breaker.
A 32 circuit panel is more than adequate for 100A, and adequate for
200A in a house this size.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:20:19 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

IF it is Kosher to run the panel on it's side (half the breakers
upside-down) - which it APPEARS to be in Ontario, the only wires that
are going to be an issue are the incoming neutral, and the ground.
Both will be abouit 6 inches short. The double set-screw tubular
splice or the split-bolt "BUG" are both solutions to those two.

I prefer the tubular splices for neatness in a panel since they don't
make a huge inline lump. Bugs are good if it's just in a big junction
box. If the panel is installed sideways, the door isn't going to work
very well.

Ever see a door on an FPE panel??

The old banel has a 3 connection "ground" buss to which both the
ground and neutral are connected, as well as the neutral from the main
switch to the fuse panel. ( the main switch and the fuse panel are
like 2 totally separate boxes in one physical enclosure - with cables
in between - so I have lots of salvageable cable to extend the
neutrals)

The existing panel is WAY to big to leave as a junction box as another
respondent recommended. It's about 23X26 inches and between a window
and a wall, where mounting the new panel beside it would be
ugly/difficult/nigh unto impossible and probably illegal.

Using a chunk of wiring trough above the panel WOULD be an option but
would also involve transitioning virtually every wire from AL to CU.

Something best done in a separate space like a trough, using approved
connectors.

Sinse all the busses etc in the new panel are AL I'd prefer to keep
the original AL wire intact all the way. No dis-similar metal
connections instead of 2.

If the busses are AL, it's a crummy panel. The SquareD QO panels are
solid copper busses (tin plated) and are mostly covered vs. exposed
competition.

ALL of the power busses on the FPE are covered - and the QO are
tinned copper, but the Homeline and most other brands are AL.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.


The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

Horizontal ia apparently no problem, but if vertical operating (either
main or branch) I've been told they must be up-on in the USA.

I've never run across such a requirement in the US, but I don't recall
if I've seen an upside down vertical operating main.


The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I've never seen a panel installed sideways in the US. Main up or main
down are both very common though.
Most older panels in Canada were "side main" with the switch mounted
"up-on"

I recommend using a SquareD QO series panel (not Homeline), they are
about the best available and are all I use for my personal jobs.

I'll check out the QO to see if it is as adaptable as the StabLok. I
KNOW it is significantly more expensive - but the price is not really
part of the decision process at this point.

Perhaps 50% more expensive, which for a residential panel and breakers
means about $100 more for the project.


Thanks for your good input.

Good luck.

On 10/29/2011 8:32 PM, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.

The US-NEC has required bending distances which could be violated if not
careful. Coming in what would be the side of a vertical panel shouldn't
be a problem. Don't know if you have the same restrictions.

Highly recommended that you talk to the inspector before you start.

I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I sometimes watch "Holmes on homes"(sp?), a TV program from Canada.
Can't remember which province (and I don't always trust what he says).

One of the really odd features is that most service panels are mounted
horizontally. That means that half the branch circuit breakers are
off-up. (As you said, this is a definite no-no in the US). The
explanation seems to be that the hot service connection area has to
remain isolated when the panel cover is taken off. As part of that, the
branch circuit wires can't go though the top of the panel (if it is
mounted vertically). When the panel is mounted horizontally, the branch
wires come in the top (side) in the area of the branch circuit breakers.
If the panel is mounted vertically the branch wires have to come in the
lower sides.

I have no idea if this applies where you are, but it is something to check.


The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly).

The bad name was rightly deserved. FPE submitted fraudulent test results
to UL. The US Comsumer Protection Safety Council did some preliminary
tests that didn't look good.

FPE Canada is presumably a good panel.
One of the FPE problems was that the breakers didn't always want to stay
plugged in. Hopefully that has been improved.

I wouldn't splice the service wires. I think you can do it now in the
US, but it is tacky. One end of new service wires would come from the
meter can. To safely work there the utility should disconnect the supply
wires.

For a horizontally mounted panel Pete's idea of a gutter may work.

We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.

OK, Pete I've checked some more and whether I use the QO or the
StabLock, things are NOT going to line up - and I can buy the QO for
$6 more than the StabLok - so it's really no issue price-wise. The
"trough" makes good sense, because IF I put the panel onto the main
feed , the top of the panel is 4 inches lower than the old panel. If I
can have a trough 4 inches high and 3 1/3 inches deep, with knockout
holes made to match the knockouts on the panel at the bottom, and to
match the cable spacing at the top, I can enter my load cables into
the trough with the existing cable clamps, and either pass the wires
through the trough or splice them in the trough, then through to the
panel. If I match drill the trough to fit the panel and use plastic
bushings (made for the purpose - not hardware store grommets or any
such crap) in the holes to pass the wires through, I don't need any
other connectors between the trough and the panel, as long as the
trough is firmly connected to the panel??? I'd "gasket" the trough to
the panel or seal it on with Silicone, as well as bolting it. The
trough face panel would be removeable, making it a legal junction box
or pull box. Does this trough or box need to be a approved (CSA or UL)
unit or can it be a custom fabricated box?? I can have one made up in
stainless or mild steel by a friend quite easily and at reasonable
cost. (we needed a 40-some foot long 8"X18" trough made to run cabling
in a concrete floor last year and they made that one up for us)

As far as StabLock vs QO, copper buss bars ARE more durable than AL,
which tilts in favour of the QO. No stupid home inspector is going to
say (as a lot of others on this list have also (mistakenly in my mind)
said) "that panel is junk and it needs to be replaced" - so I'll
likely "blow the wad" and put in the QO.

The Stab-Lock is outselling the QO about 4:1 right now according to
the clerk, just because the panel is about $6 less, and the breakers
about $1 each less. Seimens and Eaton Cuttler Hammer are both cheaper
( significantly less - like 25% less) - with Eaton being the lowest
cost - but the Stab-Lock is outselling them because of "brand
recognition". All the German customers are buying Siemens for the same
reason- - - -.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I've never seen a panel installed sideways in the US. Main up or main
down are both very common though.

I recommend using a SquareD QO series panel (not Homeline), they are
about the best available and are all I use for my personal jobs.

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain
new homeowners insurance.......

obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a
mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Actually, Waterloo North Hydro apparently provisioned all of the
houses in this neighbourhood the same - 200 amp feeders.

*The house is small enough(1300 square feet) that 200 amps would be
overkill without electric heat. *or a heavy duty shop or pottery kiln.





the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have
just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet


buyers want 200 amps because it gives them room to grow....

add AC, a electric stove, and electric dryer. and there you go 200
amps......

while 100 amps is plenty for YOU theres no way for you to know what
the buyer may want.....

by not upgrading you will be locking out a bunch of buyers

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:22:27 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 10/29/2011 8:32 PM, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.

The US-NEC has required bending distances which could be violated if not
careful. Coming in what would be the side of a vertical panel shouldn't
be a problem. Don't know if you have the same restrictions.

Highly recommended that you talk to the inspector before you start.

I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

I sometimes watch "Holmes on homes"(sp?), a TV program from Canada.
Can't remember which province (and I don't always trust what he says).

One of the really odd features is that most service panels are mounted
horizontally. That means that half the branch circuit breakers are
off-up. (As you said, this is a definite no-no in the US). The
explanation seems to be that the hot service connection area has to
remain isolated when the panel cover is taken off. As part of that, the
branch circuit wires can't go though the top of the panel (if it is
mounted vertically). When the panel is mounted horizontally, the branch
wires come in the top (side) in the area of the branch circuit breakers.
If the panel is mounted vertically the branch wires have to come in the
lower sides.

I have no idea if this applies where you are, but it is something to check.


The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly).

The bad name was rightly deserved. FPE submitted fraudulent test results
to UL. The US Comsumer Protection Safety Council did some preliminary
tests that didn't look good.

FPE Canada is presumably a good panel.
One of the FPE problems was that the breakers didn't always want to stay
plugged in. Hopefully that has been improved.

I wouldn't splice the service wires. I think you can do it now in the
US, but it is tacky. One end of new service wires would come from the
meter can. To safely work there the utility should disconnect the supply
wires.

For a horizontally mounted panel Pete's idea of a gutter may work.

We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.
I also believe the fuse beats a breaker, hands down - but I KNOW
realtors in the area strongly prefer breaker panels, as do the idiot
home inspectors.(and insurance companies)

On Oct 29, 11:44*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:45:27 -0700 (PDT), Evan



wrote:
On Oct 29, 9:32*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

It is clear that this project is beyond your skill level...

Au contraire my friend



First you are looking for a panel with an identical layout to the
one you have installed now... *-1...

Second you had not thought at all about removing your present
fuse box guts and using it as a junction box, extending all of
the existing wires through conduits to a new circuit breaker
panel installed next to the existing one, then obtaining a piece
of sheet metal of the proper thickness to correctly cover
the old fuse box...

*Not an option Not enough space, and besides that it would look like
heck as well. Would sure turn off any future buyer.

Then there is no fusing around with any of the old wiring
removing them from the old panel and installing them into
the new one, old wires sometimes lose their flexibility and
it would really suck to have to trace circuits back and
install new home runs or have to work with many junction boxes
out and away from the panel...

*Not a chance. The wire is in VERY good condition. And I've done a LOT
of this work in the past. Used to work wit my dad, who was an
electrician, and actually wired this house back in the early
seventies.Call an electrician to do this for you...

~~ Evan

*Even if I decided to get an electrician to do the job I am the one
choosing what goes in and what it is going to look like when it is
done. I know there are lots of ways this can be done that would be FAR
less than optimal. Anything less tha RIGHT, it will stay the way it is
- because there is nothing WRONG with it the way it is. In 30 years
the only fuses I've had to replace have been from jamming the table
saw or starting the compressor when it was too cold and stiff.

ANd it DOES still have 2 spare circuits available.

*I do know, however, that any half-assed home inspector hired by a
future buyer would flag the fused panel. And I've never met a home
inspector that was anything better than half-assed - period. They pick
on small unimportant stuff and miss the big expensive important stuff.

"you don't want this house, there's no dish washer, and the switch
plate in the bathroom is cracked" and they don't catch the bad grading
that causes water to flood into window wells in heavy rain, or the
blistered cast iron drain stack, or even the extention cords, or even
telephone wire, used to wire the rec room. Went through that before we
bought this place 30 years ago without an inspection. I checked this
place myself and *no problems I wasn't aware of. I knew the windows
were cheap contractor windows that would eventually need replacing,
along with the roof - I replaced the roof 7 years later, and the
windows starting after 15 years, finishing this year.

You are concerned about it "looking like heck" when you are trying
to find the one ideal panel which would be a drop in replacement, oh
and you are concerned about the name on the new panel...

WOW...

Grow up... Seriously... Either do it right or leave it alone...
Your problem was with where your feeder cable was running,
and that is one of the easier things to replace as usually the
meter can and the panel aren't all that far away from each other...

So that is one problem that seems to be driving your decision
eliminated... As to the other, the wires all coming in at the top,
another person suggested here that you install a trough and then
use sections of conduit to feed the circuits into the new panel...
You could do that if you wanted or use the old panel as the
junction box as I suggested, (oh but wait you said it was too
close to the window or some foolishness, hmmm, perhaps the
new panel could go on the other side of the window -- why not
show us a picture of the area so that more information is
available to make the recommendation) which is an acceptable
option if you replace the cover plate with one which has no
openings in it (some inspectors are good with a screw fixing
the door in place and others want a solid piece metal cover plate)

I would also upgrade to 200 amp service at this point in time,
as a different respondent told you your choices are not going to
be the same as the new buyer of your house when it sells...
Plug-in hybrid cars are becoming more popular, and while the
capability to recharge overnight (10-12 hours) using a standard
15 amp, 120 volt cord is nice and all, a lot of people who buy
plug-in hybrid cars want to be able to recharge their cars more
quickly and that requires a 240 volt outlet using as much
amperage as a 40 amp electric stove...

But it is your choice, your money and your hard luck if your
house ends up interesting yuppie/hippie types and you have
to fix a whole punch list of things really quickly (thus costing
more money for the time pressure) versus making your upgrades
on your own time table...

~~ Evan

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:20:00 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

Actually, Waterloo North Hydro apparently provisioned all of the
houses in this neighbourhood the same - 200 amp feeders.

Â*The house is small enough(1300 square feet) that 200 amps would be
overkill without electric heat. Â*or a heavy duty shop or pottery kiln.





the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have
just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet


buyers want 200 amps because it gives them room to grow....

add AC, a electric stove, and electric dryer. and there you go 200
amps......

Nope. The house has electric range, AC, and electric drier, but a gas
water heater and furnace. With the AC, range (all 4 stovetops plus the
broiler on at the same time) and the drier running you are still well
under 100 amps.
200 amps is a REQUIREMENT with electric heat

while 100 amps is plenty for YOU theres no way for you to know what
the buyer may want.....

by not upgrading you will be locking out a bunch of buyers

If THEY want 200 amps they can change the breaker and pay for the
service upgrade if required. They won't have to change the panel.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 16:12:08 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Oct 29, 11:44Â*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:45:27 -0700 (PDT), Evan



wrote:
On Oct 29, 9:32Â*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Â*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
Â*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

It is clear that this project is beyond your skill level...

Au contraire my friend



First you are looking for a panel with an identical layout to the
one you have installed now... Â*-1...

Second you had not thought at all about removing your present
fuse box guts and using it as a junction box, extending all of
the existing wires through conduits to a new circuit breaker
panel installed next to the existing one, then obtaining a piece
of sheet metal of the proper thickness to correctly cover
the old fuse box...

Â*Not an option Not enough space, and besides that it would look like
heck as well. Would sure turn off any future buyer.

Then there is no fusing around with any of the old wiring
removing them from the old panel and installing them into
the new one, old wires sometimes lose their flexibility and
it would really suck to have to trace circuits back and
install new home runs or have to work with many junction boxes
out and away from the panel...

Â*Not a chance. The wire is in VERY good condition. And I've done a LOT
of this work in the past. Used to work wit my dad, who was an
electrician, and actually wired this house back in the early
seventies.Call an electrician to do this for you...

~~ Evan

Â*Even if I decided to get an electrician to do the job I am the one
choosing what goes in and what it is going to look like when it is
done. I know there are lots of ways this can be done that would be FAR
less than optimal. Anything less tha RIGHT, it will stay the way it is
- because there is nothing WRONG with it the way it is. In 30 years
the only fuses I've had to replace have been from jamming the table
saw or starting the compressor when it was too cold and stiff.

ANd it DOES still have 2 spare circuits available.

Â*I do know, however, that any half-assed home inspector hired by a
future buyer would flag the fused panel. And I've never met a home
inspector that was anything better than half-assed - period. They pick
on small unimportant stuff and miss the big expensive important stuff.

"you don't want this house, there's no dish washer, and the switch
plate in the bathroom is cracked" and they don't catch the bad grading
that causes water to flood into window wells in heavy rain, or the
blistered cast iron drain stack, or even the extention cords, or even
telephone wire, used to wire the rec room. Went through that before we
bought this place 30 years ago without an inspection. I checked this
place myself and Â*no problems I wasn't aware of. I knew the windows
were cheap contractor windows that would eventually need replacing,
along with the roof - I replaced the roof 7 years later, and the
windows starting after 15 years, finishing this year.

You are concerned about it "looking like heck" when you are trying
to find the one ideal panel which would be a drop in replacement, oh
and you are concerned about the name on the new panel...

WOW...

h what everyone says about FPE on this list mabee I should be
concerned with the name on the panel???
And if I was buying the house I would want the panel to look like it
was professionally installed, not patched together by someone who
didn't care

Grow up... Seriously... Either do it right or leave it alone...

Which is EXACTLY what I am intending to do. If I can't do it right it
will stay the way it is - which is, as far as I'm concerned, perfectly
OK. I'll just stay with the insurance company I've been with for over
50 years, even if it costs me more than several other companies would
charge. The insurance company wants an inspection. If I'm paying for
an inspection I'll have the panel inspected at the same time.
Retirement is coming up, and a move to a bungalow where we will be
able to spend the rest of our lives without having to negotiate stairs
every day - or we'd stay in this house. So saleability is an issue we
want to plan ahead for.
Your problem was with where your feeder cable was running,
and that is one of the easier things to replace as usually the
meter can and the panel aren't all that far away from each other...
Real close - but would require movong the meter - which means
repairing siding - which is NOT on the agenda. The meter box connects
via conduit to the panel- straight through the wall - so moving
anything there is not a simple matter. The panel location is not easy
to change either - without opening up the wall and re-routing the
wires. Not going to happen.

So that is one problem that seems to be driving your decision
eliminated... As to the other, the wires all coming in at the top,
another person suggested here that you install a trough and then
use sections of conduit to feed the circuits into the new panel...
You could do that if you wanted or use the old panel as the
junction box as I suggested, (oh but wait you said it was too
close to the window or some foolishness, hmmm, perhaps the
new panel could go on the other side of the window -- why not
show us a picture of the area so that more information is
available to make the recommendation) which is an acceptable
option if you replace the cover plate with one which has no
openings in it (some inspectors are good with a screw fixing
the door in place and others want a solid piece metal cover plate)
A huge combination panel used for a junction box, then run wires from
it across a 42 inch window to a new panel, which would be in the way
of just about everything else???? You have GOT to be kidding. Not to
mention running the power feed across that window as well. Surface
mounted condouit - in a finished area.

Look - what do you not understand about it can NOT be relocated. It
is in finished space. There is NO unimpeded location where it can be
moved to without serious re-work. It is 10 inches from a window, all
the wires come down inside the wall from above and enter the top of
the existing panel. The power feed comes through the wall from the
meter in conduit into the back of the bottom of the side mounted main
switch The ONLY solution that has been suggested so far that could
work is a roughly 24 inch trough or raceway with the panel installed
below and joined by conduit. I am investigating that possibility
tomorrow.

If the raceway can be tight against the panel it can be made to work
quite easily 2 1/2" is too small, and 4X4 is too large - have not
found 4X3 or 4X3 1/2 which would be a perfect fit - I could have a
custom trough fabricated - otherwize I need to move the panel down six
inches - which will put the panel too close to the edge of the
existing panel mounting board. I could also cut out the existing
plywood panel to re-locate where the load wires come through the wall,
mounting a new service board over top of the old one large enough to
give enough edge clearance - and requiring replacing the conduit
coming throught he wall because it will now be too short. Or I could
cut the old plywood panel out of the wall and replace it with a fresh
peice, with all the holes relocated to bring the wires out where they
will work.

I would also upgrade to 200 amp service at this point in time,
as a different respondent told you your choices are not going to
be the same as the new buyer of your house when it sells...
Plug-in hybrid cars are becoming more popular, and while the
capability to recharge overnight (10-12 hours) using a standard
15 amp, 120 volt cord is nice and all, a lot of people who buy
plug-in hybrid cars want to be able to recharge their cars more
quickly and that requires a 240 volt outlet using as much
amperage as a 40 amp electric stove..

Look IDIOT. I charged my own ALL ELECTRIC car from this service for 2
years and never blew a fuse. And if the new owner wants to change it
up to 200 amps it is a VERY SIMPLE situation of changing the breaker
in the panel and the meter base and 3 feet of wire. - and going to a
200 amp circuit does not solve ANY of the issues I am concerned with
right now. If I put in a 100 amp or a 400 amp panel doesn't make any
difference.

But it is your choice, your money and your hard luck if your
house ends up interesting yuppie/hippie types and you have
to fix a whole punch list of things really quickly (thus costing
more money for the time pressure) versus making your upgrades
on your own time table...

If they demand a 200 amp service the upgrade is a 1 hour job in the
house, possible change to the meter box outside and POSSIBLY a trench
to the street for the utility to upgrade - but I'm told the feeds are
ALL 200 amp in the subdivision.

~~ Evan
And I didn't ask for advice about what I should be doing - only how
to accomplish it.

Only Pete has given any constructive and worth-while input - All you
can do is tell a guy likely old enough to be your dad to "grow up" and
do a half-assed job.

wrote:

If THEY want 200 amps they can change the breaker and pay for the
service upgrade if required. They won't have to change the panel.

If THEY raise the issue, you can offer the simple solution.

Some of "THEM" may, however, just think "Uh-oh!" and walk away.

On 10/30/2011 4:07 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.

...

The
"trough" makes good sense, because IF I put the panel onto the main
feed , the top of the panel is 4 inches lower than the old panel. If I
can have a trough 4 inches high and 3 1/3 inches deep, with knockout
holes made to match the knockouts on the panel at the bottom, and to
match the cable spacing at the top, I can enter my load cables into
the trough with the existing cable clamps, and either pass the wires
through the trough or splice them in the trough, then through to the
panel. If I match drill the trough to fit the panel and use plastic
bushings (made for the purpose - not hardware store grommets or any
such crap) in the holes to pass the wires through, I don't need any
other connectors between the trough and the panel, as long as the
trough is firmly connected to the panel??? I'd "gasket" the trough to
the panel or seal it on with Silicone, as well as bolting it.

I wouldn't seal the gutter to the panel.

Not sure what plastic bushings you are talking about. Might be perfectly
good.

For the closest connection I would use "chase nipples" from the gutter
into the panel through matching holes (as you plan to do).

Pete suggested a "stub of 2 inch conduit" to connect the gutter to the
panel. (Could also one or more 2" chase nipples.) Usually running a lot
of wires in conduit would be a problem because you have to derate the
current rating of the wire up to up to 65%. When the conduit is shorter
than 24" that does not apply. This may not be the code where you are. It
could make the installation much easier (may or may not require gutter
splices).

------------------------------
Do you actually have aluminum branch circuit wiring? It was only used in
the US from about 1965 to the early 1970s. Much earlier there was rubber
insulated tinned copper that can look like aluminum.

I does not matter if the panel busses are aluminum since you are not
connecting the wire to the bus bars.

The best information, based on extensive research, on branch circuit
aluminum connections I have seen is:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
A relatively new splice device that appears to make good aluminum
connections is:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/produc...cts/alumiconn/

But that is the US. More questions for an inspector.

The
trough face panel would be removeable, making it a legal junction box
or pull box. Does this trough or box need to be a approved (CSA or UL)
unit or can it be a custom fabricated box?? I can have one made up in
stainless or mild steel by a friend quite easily and at reasonable
cost. (we needed a 40-some foot long 8"X18" trough made to run cabling
in a concrete floor last year and they made that one up for us)

Ask your inspector. A commercial gutter might be cheaper and raise fewer
flags.

I would avoid stainless because it is, as I remember, much harder to
work with than steel.

...

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

But it is a problem for half the branch circuit breakers on a
horizontally mounted panel.

--
bud--

On 10/30/2011 4:12 PM, bob haller wrote:
Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain
new homeowners insurance.......

Certainly not in clare's first post.

I didn't see clare clearly say his likely new insurance wouldn't insure
fuses. Or that it would be a problem with other companies.


obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a
mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Your fetishes affect your vision.

--
bud--

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:54:33 -0600, bud--
wrote:

On 10/30/2011 4:07 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete
wrote:


wrote:

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the
top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal
panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of
2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected
(wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the
new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and
carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a
standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the
neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout
is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top
or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is
not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the
main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate
connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double
setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those
connections.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected
and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example: http://wpnet.us/Power/pages/100_3029.htm This
one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all
inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code
area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that
the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right
breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed
breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on
the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a
code compliant generator installation.

...

The
"trough" makes good sense, because IF I put the panel onto the main
feed , the top of the panel is 4 inches lower than the old panel. If I
can have a trough 4 inches high and 3 1/3 inches deep, with knockout
holes made to match the knockouts on the panel at the bottom, and to
match the cable spacing at the top, I can enter my load cables into
the trough with the existing cable clamps, and either pass the wires
through the trough or splice them in the trough, then through to the
panel. If I match drill the trough to fit the panel and use plastic
bushings (made for the purpose - not hardware store grommets or any
such crap) in the holes to pass the wires through, I don't need any
other connectors between the trough and the panel, as long as the
trough is firmly connected to the panel??? I'd "gasket" the trough to
the panel or seal it on with Silicone, as well as bolting it.

I wouldn't seal the gutter to the panel.

Not sure what plastic bushings you are talking about. Might be perfectly
good.

For the closest connection I would use "chase nipples" from the gutter
into the panel through matching holes (as you plan to do).
If I use "chase nipples" I require the plastic "anti-short" bushing
if the nipple is metal. Not required with plastic. Not enough room to
use 2" nipple. Total difference in "height" between old and new panel
is 4 inches. The "stub of 2 inch conduit" would have to be basically
just the threads with a nut on either end.

Pete suggested a "stub of 2 inch conduit" to connect the gutter to the
panel. (Could also one or more 2" chase nipples.)

The panel only has provision for 1 2 incher in the load center end,
and one in the "Main" end.


Usually running a lot
of wires in conduit would be a problem because you have to derate the
current rating of the wire up to up to 65%. When the conduit is shorter
than 24" that does not apply. This may not be the code where you are. It
could make the installation much easier (may or may not require gutter
splices).

How about a 4 inch long conduit nipple in each knockout, with the
connector that normally gets screwed onto the panel screwed into the
end of the conduit instead - so I end up with 6 3/4" stubs and 2 1"
stubs sticking out of the top of the panel with the "romex" connected
to the top, the individual wires from the "romex" entering the panel
via the conduit??? Then I just make a metal sheild panel to fit over
top, hiding the "Rube Goldberg" setup from open view?????
------------------------------
Do you actually have aluminum branch circuit wiring? It was only used in
the US from about 1965 to the early 1970s. Much earlier there was rubber
insulated tinned copper that can look like aluminum.


Yes, it is second generation aluminum wiring. The stuff that doesn't
crack every time you look at it the wrong way - used from about about
1973/74 'till about 1978, when aluminum wiring basically dissapeared
from the market. I believe it has more copper in it than the earlier
aluminum, but I'm not sure. The old crap was 1350 alloy. The good
stuff is 8000 series. HUGE difference. But to a home inspector or an
insurance company "it's all aluminum".
I does not matter if the panel busses are aluminum since you are not
connecting the wire to the bus bars.

The best information, based on extensive research, on branch circuit
aluminum connections I have seen is:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
A relatively new splice device that appears to make good aluminum
connections is:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/produc...cts/alumiconn/

But that is the US. More questions for an inspector.

The
trough face panel would be removeable, making it a legal junction box
or pull box. Does this trough or box need to be a approved (CSA or UL)
unit or can it be a custom fabricated box?? I can have one made up in
stainless or mild steel by a friend quite easily and at reasonable
cost. (we needed a 40-some foot long 8"X18" trough made to run cabling
in a concrete floor last year and they made that one up for us)

Ask your inspector. A commercial gutter might be cheaper and raise fewer
flags.

I would avoid stainless because it is, as I remember, much harder to
work with than steel.

No problem as mu buddy fabricates stainless steel enclosures as a
regular part of his job.
...

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate
left/right, not up/down.

But it is a problem for half the branch circuit breakers on a
horizontally mounted panel.

On Oct 31, 12:55*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 10/30/2011 4:12 PM, bob haller wrote:

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain
new homeowners insurance.......

Certainly not in clare's first post.

I didn't see clare clearly say his likely new insurance wouldn't insure
fuses. Or that it would be a problem with other companies.



obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a
mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Your fetishes affect your vision.

--
bud--


his pasted quote..... .


However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53
years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

bud your fetish is attempting to ignore the now current requirements
to obtain homeowners insurance.

things like fuses, K&T wiring, cracked sidewalks, uneven steps, lack
of railings indoors and out, roof in poor condition, etc etc etc......

insurance companies dont like fuses because people overfuse, hey the
15 amp blows heres a 30, all better now it quit blowing

Look IDIOT. I charged my own ALL ELECTRIC car from this service for 2
years and never blew a fuse. *And if the new owner wants to change it
up to 200 amps it is a VERY SIMPLE situation of changing the breaker
in the panel and the meter base and 3 feet of wire. - and going to a
200 amp circuit does not solve ANY of the issues I am concerned with
right now. If I put in a 100 amp or a 400 amp panel doesn't make any
difference.



But it is your choice, your money and your hard luck if your
house ends up interesting yuppie/hippie types and you have
to fix a whole punch list of things really quickly (thus costing
more money for the time pressure) versus making your upgrades
on your own time table...

If they demand a 200 amp service the upgrade is a 1 hour job in the
house, possible change to the meter box outside and POSSIBLY a trench
to the street for the utility to upgrade - but I'm told the feeds are
ALL 200 amp in the subdivision.

if its so easy just do it all once...... changing the main entrance
cable to support 200 amps will solve many of the install issues. 90%
of all home buyers demand a home in perfect condition ready to move
in. a electrical make do can discourage lots of buyers

drywall is cheap, open the wall and do it right

once you put your home on the market / or under sales agreement all
repairs must be done by registered contractors. all buyers will want
receipts. this runs up the costs a lot

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:35:29 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Oct 31, 12:55Â*pm, bud-- wrote:
On 10/30/2011 4:12 PM, bob haller wrote:

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain
new homeowners insurance.......

Certainly not in clare's first post.

I didn't see clare clearly say his likely new insurance wouldn't insure
fuses. Or that it would be a problem with other companies.



obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a
mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Your fetishes affect your vision.

--
bud--


his pasted quote..... .


However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53
years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

bud your fetish is attempting to ignore the now current requirements
to obtain homeowners insurance.

things like fuses, K&T wiring, cracked sidewalks, uneven steps, lack
of railings indoors and out, roof in poor condition, etc etc etc......

insurance companies dont like fuses because people overfuse, hey the
15 amp blows heres a 30, all better now it quit blowing


And exactly WHERE does it say the insurance company won't insure
fuses? I need the inspection aluminum wiring - and I figured if I
was going to have an inspection anyway, might just as well look into
doing the panel at the same time. The insurance company (economical)
has no problem (at least so far) with the fuse panel, as long as it's
not a 60 amp or less.

On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

Look IDIOT. I charged my own ALL ELECTRIC car from this service for 2
years and never blew a fuse. Â*And if the new owner wants to change it
up to 200 amps it is a VERY SIMPLE situation of changing the breaker
in the panel and the meter base and 3 feet of wire. - and going to a
200 amp circuit does not solve ANY of the issues I am concerned with
right now. If I put in a 100 amp or a 400 amp panel doesn't make any
difference.



But it is your choice, your money and your hard luck if your
house ends up interesting yuppie/hippie types and you have
to fix a whole punch list of things really quickly (thus costing
more money for the time pressure) versus making your upgrades
on your own time table...

If they demand a 200 amp service the upgrade is a 1 hour job in the
house, possible change to the meter box outside and POSSIBLY a trench
to the street for the utility to upgrade - but I'm told the feeds are
ALL 200 amp in the subdivision.

if its so easy just do it all once...... changing the main entrance
cable to support 200 amps will solve many of the install issues. 90%
of all home buyers demand a home in perfect condition ready to move
in. a electrical make do can discourage lots of buyers

drywall is cheap, open the wall and do it right

once you put your home on the market / or under sales agreement all
repairs must be done by registered contractors. all buyers will want
receipts. this runs up the costs a lot

Well, I've checked some more.
Waterloo North Hydro requires a "service plan" I think they call it on
all panel changes. They WILL require the meter base to be changed if a
permit is pulled and an inspection done. They will NOT allow stub
conduits, although Kitchener does? or at least did. My electrical
contractor friend is checking to see if they still allow 2 cables in
one clamp/knockout going into the panel.
If WNH requires the meter base to be replaced, it can be raised 4
inches, making the new panel fit (still sideways) (assuming WNH allows
the changed meter location) - so the service plan is step #1 tomorrow.
If the meter base is changed it WILL get a 200 amp panel.
If WNH wants the whole service moved they can stuff it - the old panel
will stay.
Too bad it's an Amalgamated 4320 instead of a 4220 panel - the 4220
would be a candidate for a "guts transplant", while the 4320 is not.

wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:44:54 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

Look IDIOT. I charged my own ALL ELECTRIC car from this service for
2 years and never blew a fuse. And if the new owner wants to change
it up to 200 amps it is a VERY SIMPLE situation of changing the
breaker in the panel and the meter base and 3 feet of wire. - and
going to a 200 amp circuit does not solve ANY of the issues I am
concerned with right now. If I put in a 100 amp or a 400 amp panel
doesn't make any difference.



But it is your choice, your money and your hard luck if your
house ends up interesting yuppie/hippie types and you have
to fix a whole punch list of things really quickly (thus costing
more money for the time pressure) versus making your upgrades
on your own time table...

If they demand a 200 amp service the upgrade is a 1 hour job in the
house, possible change to the meter box outside and POSSIBLY a
trench to the street for the utility to upgrade - but I'm told the
feeds are ALL 200 amp in the subdivision.

if its so easy just do it all once...... changing the main entrance
cable to support 200 amps will solve many of the install issues. 90%
of all home buyers demand a home in perfect condition ready to move
in. a electrical make do can discourage lots of buyers

drywall is cheap, open the wall and do it right

once you put your home on the market / or under sales agreement all
repairs must be done by registered contractors. all buyers will want
receipts. this runs up the costs a lot

Well, I've checked some more.
Waterloo North Hydro requires a "service plan" I think they call it on
all panel changes. They WILL require the meter base to be changed if a
permit is pulled and an inspection done. They will NOT allow stub
conduits, although Kitchener does? or at least did. My electrical
contractor friend is checking to see if they still allow 2 cables in
one clamp/knockout going into the panel.
If WNH requires the meter base to be replaced, it can be raised 4
inches, making the new panel fit (still sideways) (assuming WNH allows
the changed meter location) - so the service plan is step #1 tomorrow.
If the meter base is changed it WILL get a 200 amp panel.
If WNH wants the whole service moved they can stuff it - the old panel
will stay.
Too bad it's an Amalgamated 4320 instead of a 4220 panel - the 4220
would be a candidate for a "guts transplant", while the 4320 is not.

Too bad you live in such a benighted jurisdiction. In mine, one calls the
power company to unseal the meter. Once they do that, the homeowner or
electrician pulls the meter, makes whatever changes he feels are
appropriate, then calls the power company to re-seal the meter. End of
story.

On 10/31/2011 12:06 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:54:33 -0600,
wrote:

On 10/30/2011 4:07 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete
wrote:

The
"trough" makes good sense, because IF I put the panel onto the main
feed , the top of the panel is 4 inches lower than the old panel. If I
can have a trough 4 inches high and 3 1/3 inches deep, with knockout
holes made to match the knockouts on the panel at the bottom, and to
match the cable spacing at the top, I can enter my load cables into
the trough with the existing cable clamps, and either pass the wires
through the trough or splice them in the trough, then through to the
panel. If I match drill the trough to fit the panel and use plastic
bushings (made for the purpose - not hardware store grommets or any
such crap) in the holes to pass the wires through, I don't need any
other connectors between the trough and the panel, as long as the
trough is firmly connected to the panel??? I'd "gasket" the trough to
the panel or seal it on with Silicone, as well as bolting it.

I wouldn't seal the gutter to the panel.

Not sure what plastic bushings you are talking about. Might be perfectly
good.

For the closest connection I would use "chase nipples" from the gutter
into the panel through matching holes (as you plan to do).
If I use "chase nipples" I require the plastic "anti-short" bushing
if the nipple is metal. Not required with plastic. Not enough room to
use 2" nipple. Total difference in "height" between old and new panel
is 4 inches. The "stub of 2 inch conduit" would have to be basically
just the threads with a nut on either end.

Chase nipple:
http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-47-metal-conduit-connectors/conduit-chase-nipple-601921.aspx

The gutter and panel can be in contact. Plastic bushing not required. I
would run a ground wire to the gutter (IMHO chase nipples aren't a great
ground).

But your plastic bushings might work great.


Pete suggested a "stub of 2 inch conduit" to connect the gutter to the
panel. (Could also one or more 2" chase nipples.)

The panel only has provision for 1 2 incher in the load center end,
and one in the "Main" end.


One can punch holes where desired.

And other size holes would be fine. Part of the point was that derating
is not required (in the US). The number of wires is limited by the wire
fill for that size conduit.

Usually running a lot
of wires in conduit would be a problem because you have to derate the
current rating of the wire up to up to 65%. When the conduit is shorter
than 24" that does not apply. This may not be the code where you are. It
could make the installation much easier (may or may not require gutter
splices).

How about a 4 inch long conduit nipple in each knockout, with the
connector that normally gets screwed onto the panel screwed into the
end of the conduit instead - so I end up with 6 3/4" stubs and 2 1"
stubs sticking out of the top of the panel with the "romex" connected
to the top, the individual wires from the "romex" entering the panel
via the conduit??? Then I just make a metal sheild panel to fit over
top, hiding the "Rube Goldberg" setup from open view?????

Don't think so.

There are romex connectors that can take 2 cables each (12/2 or 14/2).

------------------------------
Do you actually have aluminum branch circuit wiring? It was only used in
the US from about 1965 to the early 1970s. Much earlier there was rubber
insulated tinned copper that can look like aluminum.


Yes, it is second generation aluminum wiring. The stuff that doesn't
crack every time you look at it the wrong way - used from about about
1973/74 'till about 1978, when aluminum wiring basically dissapeared
from the market. I believe it has more copper in it than the earlier
aluminum, but I'm not sure. The old crap was 1350 alloy. The good
stuff is 8000 series. HUGE difference. But to a home inspector or an
insurance company "it's all aluminum".

gfretwell has written that the new wire is harder, and not likely to
extrude, which was one of the problems with the old wire (connection got
hot, wire expanded more than screw connection is in, wire compresses,
connection looser next operating cycle and gets hotter....)

I would have switches/receptacles marked CO/ALR (in the US).

And it still has problems with surface oxidation when installed. I would
use the connection method recommendations in the link provided. Like
with connections for larger aluminum wire, the alumiconn connectors
deform the wire and probably don't have oxide problems.


The best information, based on extensive research, on branch circuit
aluminum connections I have seen is:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/R...Fire070706.pdf
A relatively new splice device that appears to make good aluminum
connections is:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/produc...cts/alumiconn/

But that is the US. More questions for an inspector.


I would avoid stainless because it is, as I remember, much harder to
work with than steel.

No problem as mu buddy fabricates stainless steel enclosures as a
regular part of his job.

As long as he cuts all the holes.
(And the inspector OKs it.)

--
bud--

On 10/31/2011 6:11 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:35:29 -0700 (PDT), bob
wrote:

On Oct 31, 12:55 pm, wrote:
On 10/30/2011 4:12 PM, bob haller wrote:

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain
new homeowners insurance.......

Certainly not in clare's first post.

I didn't see clare clearly say his likely new insurance wouldn't insure
fuses. Or that it would be a problem with other companies.



obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a
mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Your fetishes affect your vision.

--
bud--


his pasted quote..... .


However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53
years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

bud your fetish is attempting to ignore the now current requirements
to obtain homeowners insurance.

Cite your source.

There are quite a few people here who have complained about your fetishes.


things like fuses, K&T wiring,

Both of which are still in the NEC.

Cite your source that either of them is hazardous.

cracked sidewalks, uneven steps, lack
of railings indoors and out, roof in poor condition, etc etc etc......

insurance companies dont like fuses because people overfuse, hey the
15 amp blows heres a 30, all better now it quit blowing

Fustats and fustat adapters have been around for a real long time. It is
harder to remove a fustat adapter than change a 15A breaker to 30A.

When my mother had a 100A service upgrade over 50 years ago the
electricians used fustats for all the plug fuses. The NEC requires their
use in some instances.



And exactly WHERE does it say the insurance company won't insure
fuses? I need the inspection aluminum wiring - and I figured if I
was going to have an inspection anyway, might just as well look into
doing the panel at the same time. The insurance company (economical)
has no problem (at least so far) with the fuse panel, as long as it's
not a 60 amp or less.

hallerb fetish confirmed

--
bud--

On Nov 1, 11:19*am, bud-- wrote:
On 10/31/2011 6:11 PM, wrote:





On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:35:29 -0700 (PDT), bob
wrote:

On Oct 31, 12:55 pm, *wrote:
On 10/30/2011 4:12 PM, bob haller wrote:

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better
protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when
selling.

--
bud--

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain
new homeowners insurance.......

Certainly not in clare's first post.

I didn't see clare clearly say his likely new insurance wouldn't insure
fuses. Or that it would be a problem with other companies.

obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a
mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Your fetishes affect your vision.

--
bud--

his pasted quote..... .

However, inspection is not an issue.
Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch
insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW.
I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53
years,
who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an
inspection.

bud your fetish is attempting to ignore the now current requirements
to obtain homeowners insurance.

Cite your source.

There are quite a few people here who have complained about your fetishes..



things like fuses, K&T wiring,

Both of which are still in the NEC.

Cite your source that either of them is hazardous.

cracked sidewalks, uneven steps, lack
of railings indoors and out, roof in poor condition, etc etc etc......

insurance companies dont like fuses because people overfuse, hey the
15 amp blows heres a 30, all better now it quit blowing

Fustats and fustat adapters have been around for a real long time. It is
harder to remove a fustat adapter than change a 15A breaker to 30A.

When my mother had a 100A service upgrade over 50 years ago the
electricians used fustats for all the plug fuses. The NEC requires their
use in some instances.



And exactly WHERE does it say the insurance company won't insure
fuses? I need the inspection aluminum wiring - and I figured if I
was going to have an inspection anyway, might just as well look into
doing the panel at the same time. *The insurance company (economical)
has no problem (at least so far) with the fuse panel, as long as it's
not a 60 amp or less.

hallerb fetish confirmed

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

this has been discussed before, just ask state farm. i asked several
agents all said KT and fuse boxes are not permissable for new
policies/////

On Oct 30, 7:12*pm, Evan wrote:
On Oct 29, 11:44*pm, wrote:





On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:45:27 -0700 (PDT), Evan

wrote:
On Oct 29, 9:32*pm, wrote:
I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a
breaker panel.
*Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old
panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse
on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower
corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through
the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This
does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I
would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as
it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need
to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of
the back as the new panel is significantly smaller.
*I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are
upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently
it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself
to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector
seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the
dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in
the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5
years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about
replacing the panel in the firstr place.

It is clear that this project is beyond your skill level...

Au contraire my friend

First you are looking for a panel with an identical layout to the
one you have installed now... *-1...

Second you had not thought at all about removing your present
fuse box guts and using it as a junction box, extending all of
the existing wires through conduits to a new circuit breaker
panel installed next to the existing one, then obtaining a piece
of sheet metal of the proper thickness to correctly cover
the old fuse box...

*Not an option Not enough space, and besides that it would look like
heck as well. Would sure turn off any future buyer.

Then there is no fusing around with any of the old wiring
removing them from the old panel and installing them into
the new one, old wires sometimes lose their flexibility and
it would really suck to have to trace circuits back and
install new home runs or have to work with many junction boxes
out and away from the panel...

*Not a chance. The wire is in VERY good condition. And I've done a LOT
of this work in the past. Used to work wit my dad, who was an
electrician, and actually wired this house back in the early
seventies.Call an electrician to do this for you...

~~ Evan

*Even if I decided to get an electrician to do the job I am the one
choosing what goes in and what it is going to look like when it is
done. I know there are lots of ways this can be done that would be FAR
less than optimal. Anything less tha RIGHT, it will stay the way it is
- because there is nothing WRONG with it the way it is. In 30 years
the only fuses I've had to replace have been from jamming the table
saw or starting the compressor when it was too cold and stiff.

ANd it DOES still have 2 spare circuits available.

*I do know, however, that any half-assed home inspector hired by a
future buyer would flag the fused panel. And I've never met a home
inspector that was anything better than half-assed - period. They pick
on small unimportant stuff and miss the big expensive important stuff.

"you don't want this house, there's no dish washer, and the switch
plate in the bathroom is cracked" and they don't catch the bad grading
that causes water to flood into window wells in heavy rain, or the
blistered cast iron drain stack, or even the extention cords, or even
telephone wire, used to wire the rec room. Went through that before we
bought this place 30 years ago without an inspection. I checked this
place myself and *no problems I wasn't aware of. I knew the windows
were cheap contractor windows that would eventually need replacing,
along with the roof - I replaced the roof 7 years later, and the
windows starting after 15 years, finishing this year.

You are concerned about it "looking like heck" when you are trying
to find the one ideal panel which would be a drop in replacement, oh
and you are concerned about the name on the new panel...

dunno about you but a Stab-Lok panel would be a real turn off to me,
so the name is important.

I personally wouldn't use one.

nate

On Oct 30, 10:46*pm, wrote:

*Look - what do you not understand about it can NOT be relocated. It
is in finished space. There is NO unimpeded location where it can be
moved to without serious re-work. It is 10 inches from a window, all
the wires come down inside the wall from above and enter the top of
the existing panel. The power feed comes through the wall from the
meter in conduit into the back of the bottom of the side mounted main
switch The ONLY solution that has been suggested so far that could
work is a roughly 24 inch trough or raceway with the panel installed
below and joined by conduit. I am investigating that possibility
tomorrow.

How is the meter located WRT the panel? If it's significantly higher
I would be tempted to punch through the exterior wall in a location
that will allow you to use a modern panel, then yes, you will have to
patch the hole in the siding where the old conduit came through. But
that seems like the best solution to me.

good luck

nate

On Oct 30, 10:46*pm, wrote:
*And I didn't ask for advice about what I should be doing - only how
to accomplish it.

Only Pete has given any constructive and worth-while input - All you
can do is tell a guy likely old enough to be your dad to "grow up" and
do a half-assed job.

It is sounding more and more like you are bitching because a
drop-in replacement doesn't exist...

If you think that you are going to be able to do this without
opening the wall... LOL... Good luck...

It seems you are only receptive to specific advice here which
fits into your already pre-determined vision of how this work
should be able to be done...

Again... Either do it right or leave it the **** alone, if your
insurance is connected to it and all, then oh well, I guess you
will have to keep things they way they are now and your
descendants can worry about it after your passing...

~~ Evan

On Oct 31, 2:06*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:54:33 -0600, bud--
wrote:


The
"trough" makes good sense, because IF I put the panel onto the main
feed , the top of the panel is 4 inches lower than the old panel. If I
can have a trough 4 inches high and 3 1/3 inches deep, with knockout
holes made to match the knockouts on the panel at the bottom, and to
match the cable spacing at the top, I can enter my load cables into
the trough with the existing cable clamps, and either pass the wires
through the trough or splice them in the trough, then through to the
panel. If I match drill the trough to fit the panel and use plastic
bushings (made for the purpose - not hardware store grommets or any
such crap) in the holes to pass the wires through, I don't need any
other connectors between the trough and the panel, as long as the
trough is firmly connected to the panel??? I'd "gasket" the trough to
the panel or seal it on with Silicone, as well as bolting it.

I wouldn't seal the gutter to the panel.

Not sure what plastic bushings you are talking about. Might be perfectly
good.

For the closest connection I would use "chase nipples" from the gutter
into the panel through matching holes (as you plan to do).

*If I use "chase nipples" I require the plastic "anti-short" bushing
if the nipple is metal. Not required with plastic. Not enough room to
use 2" nipple. Total difference in "height" between old and new panel
is 4 inches. The "stub of 2 inch conduit" would have to be basically
just *the threads with a nut on either end.



Pete suggested a "stub of 2 inch conduit" to connect the gutter to the
panel. (Could also one or more 2" chase nipples.)

The panel only has provision for 1 2 incher in the load center end,
and one in the "Main" end.

Usually running a lot
of wires in conduit would be a problem because you have to derate the
current rating of the wire up to up to 65%. When the conduit is shorter
than 24" that does not apply. This may not be the code where you are. It
could make the installation much easier (may or may not require gutter
splices).

*How about a 4 inch long conduit nipple in each knockout, with the
connector that normally gets screwed onto the panel screwed into the
end of the conduit instead - so I end up with *6 3/4" stubs and 2 1"
stubs sticking out of the top of the panel with the "romex" connected
to the top, the individual wires from the "romex" entering the panel
via the conduit??? Then I just make a metal sheild panel to fit over
top, hiding the "Rube Goldberg" setup from open view?????

Sounds like your ideas are about a thousand times worse anything
I ever suggested...

It sounds way too much like you are being unreasonable about this
and that a skilled electrician has the ability to create new knock
outs
in a panel in many sizes -- they are not stuck using the ones that the
factory has provided...

Your "Rube Goldberg" set up would raise more flags than a couple
of professionally installed conduits running underneath a window,
but whatever your house man...

~~ Evan