On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:10:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
It really is that simple. If you
make N=90, you have the old 90 deg two phase implemented over 3 wires
instead of two.

And what if you make N = 180 deg

How many phases do you have now?

m

Two phases, which is precisely my point. If you have two phases at 90,
two phases at 179, two at 181, then you have two at 180.
It's all consistent. Otherwise there is a "parlor trick" at 180.


I refer to transformers because that is what we use but you can
replace the primary with a rotating field (alternator) and nothing
changes.

The problem you can't have just 2 phases if they are connected. Until
you understand that we will keep laughing at you.

S L O W L Y
This is what you told me was 2 phase but it is 3 phase delta.
https://myelectrical.com/Portals/0/SunBlogNuke/2/WindowsLiveWriter/WhatisanOpenDeltaTransformer_A776/Open%20Delta%20Transformer_thumb.jpg
It is even labeled as such and if you google delta vee transformer
(open delta etc) you can see 100 other references that look just like
it.
When you rotate that second winding anywhere off of a straight line,
(zero or 180 angular displacement) this is what you have. If I ground
that line on the bottom of the picture I will have a corner grounded
delta. You now see why I say that looks exactly like a single phase.
In fact that wire would be required to be white if I grounded it.
With me so far?

If I rotate that field to be a straight line, (180 or zero is the same
thing with a semantic difference), poof, you have single phase.
You can call that trig or you can call that ****ing magic, I don't
care but it is true. You can't get to "2 phase" without 2 separated
sources.

BTW you keep talking about 181 degrees. Show me that on a standard
protractor. Mine has 0 and 180, in a straight line.
Most are labeled both ways so 180 = 0.
https://tinyurl.com/y8o2q8w7

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

OK here we go. I do have a scope so let's quit bull****ting each other
I happen to have both ungrounded conductors available in my shop so
here you go.
This is conceptually what we are looking at.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/scop...single%20phase

This is the scope picture
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/scop...cture%201P.jpg
Scope is in "chop", sync +, on channel one
Ch1 is on one side of the service, ch2 on the other. 246v between them

Am I not just looking at both halves on one sine wave?
All you have proved is that one end of a voltage source will be higher
than the other at any given time.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 1:55:51 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 07:35:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 10:11:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 17:58:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 2:49:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:31:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Already addressed that in another post just now. I clearly said "I believe".
Rather odd you're objecting to that suddenly, I've been posting the
same thing for two days.

... and I have been telling you for days, what you say about 2 phase
is simply wrong but you keep posting it.
Telling a lie over and over does not make it true.
You really are starting to sound more like your buddy trump every day.

I addressed it in the other post. As I said, this is the first time
you've insisted that one can't have two phases without 4 conductors.
You said that was the old 90 deg two phase system. I said OK, we can
morph that one step at a time. First step, instead of using two wires,
lets use a shared neutral, make it 3 wires. There isn't anything radical
in that, is there?
Just connect one end of each winding to a common return/neutral.
For a couple days, you didn't object. You have two windings, separated
by 90 deg on one shaft, two hots, one neutral. Very simple.
But now I understand you're
insisting that one can't have two phase without four conductors.
Are you sure that's your position of record? It seems very odd, since
we have 3 phase all over the place with just 3 conductors that it now
takes 4 conductors to get two phase. You might want to rethink that one.

You can duct tape a funnel on the nose of a horse and call it a
unicorn but that does not make it so.
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/theory/2phd1.gif
Look at the diagram on the bottom. You will see that needs 4 wires. If
you make it a Tee or an Ell, you will end up with 3 phase.
In fact that was how they made 3 phase when they had 2 phase
distribution, well up into the 20th century. It was still in my IBM
physical planning manuals in 1990.
Same transformer, just wired the other way.
I am sorry if I keep coming back to transformers but that is what
electrical distribution uses. Don't blame me, blame Tesla and
Westinghouse.

I'm sorry if I keep rejecting your claim that phase requires transformers,
because it does not. Again, you're confusing a particular implementation
with the general case. It staggers the mind that we can get 3 phases
on 3 wires, but you claim that to get just two requires 4 wires.
It's absurd and totally refuted by the simple example of the generator
with two windings, offset by N degrees, with a ...


And you keep being ignorant of the fact that what you describe will
end up being 3 phase delta. In fact when I showed you a typical 3p
delta done with 2 windings (transformer or generator, makes no
difference) you tried to tell me it was 2 phase.
You just do not know what you are talking about so it is hard to take
your questions seriously.


According to you no one here knows what they are talking about except you.
The IEEE Fellow, prof, power engineer, he's confused too. He's using trig functions in his analysis, even though there isn't a trig function there.
You can't deal with a very simple generator with two windings. According
to you, it's impossible to have two phases from a generator without
4 wires. Which of course is BS. How then do we get 3 phases with just
3 wires? Explain that? Hello?

I take two windings, put them on the same shaft, separated by N degrees.
I tie two of the ends together, forming a common neutral. That defines
a TWO PHASE POWER SOURCE. It really is that simple. The only thing
that determines when the AC sine waves crosses zero and start to rise
is when the magnetic field passes the windings! It's defined by the
physical configuration of the generator, where the windings are on
the shaft, not the loads. I put a resistor
from one winding to neutral or the other winding to neutral, does it
change when the magnet passes the winding? No I still have a generator
putting out two phases at N degrees separation. I put a resistor between
one hot and the other, does it change when the magnet passes the winding?
NO. Those two phases are still there, N degrees apart. It really, really
is that simple. No transformers are involved. If we have 3 phase and
put a resistor between two phases do we now have 4 phase power? It
would be exactly the same thing. Put 3 resistors between the phases and
what now, 6 phases? Of course we still have 3 phases
at exactly the same phase angles which are DEFINED by where the windings
are on the shaft. It's defined at the 3 phase generator, it's defined
at the two phase generator.

These people don't know what they're talking about too? :

https://www.eeweb.com/quizzes/two-ph...ee-wire-system

"2-Phase-3-Wire-System_Problem-1430295633

A 2-phase, 3-wire AC system has a middle conductor of same cross-sectional area as the outer and supplies a load of 20 MW. The system is converted into 3-phase, 4-wire system by running a neutral wire. Calculate the new power which can be supplied if voltage across consumer terminal and percentage line losses remain the same."

According to you, it can't exist.
And don't tell us because it hasn't been built it can't be analyzed.
Their example is EXACTLY my example.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 2:19:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:10:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
It really is that simple. If you
make N=90, you have the old 90 deg two phase implemented over 3 wires
instead of two.

And what if you make N = 180 deg

How many phases do you have now?

m

Two phases, which is precisely my point. If you have two phases at 90,
two phases at 179, two at 181, then you have two at 180.
It's all consistent. Otherwise there is a "parlor trick" at 180.


I refer to transformers because that is what we use

You keep going off to transformers because you can't explain the simple
circuits and divert to the wilderness.



but you can
replace the primary with a rotating field (alternator) and nothing
changes.

That's why I tried to show you how a simple two phase or a three
phase generator source can be morphed into exactly the same thing
as 240/120 but you instead are now making silly claims, like I
can't have two phases without 4 wires. BTW, if I can't have two
phases without 4 wires, what happens in your split-phase motor,
where we have two phases on 3 wires? I morphed the 3 phase into
the service into your house too, but you claim magic happens.
There are still 3 phases when I move one winding to 179 deg, but
at 180, POOF, it's gone! And even more bizarre, you claim that
if I move it to 181, it becomes 179 again? Wow.





The problem you can't have just 2 phases if they are connected. Until
you understand that we will keep laughing at you.

These folks aren't laughing:

https://www.eeweb.com/quizzes/two-ph...ee-wire-system

2-Phase-3-Wire-System_Problem-1430295633

A 2-phase, 3-wire AC system has a middle conductor of same cross-sectional area as the outer and supplies a load of 20 MW. The system is converted into 3-phase, 4-wire system by running a neutral wire. Calculate the new power which can be supplied if voltage across consumer terminal and percentage line losses remain the same.

And who's the "we"? I don't see any of your old buds here, supporting
this new craziness.

Explain to us how by placing a resistor between two conductors, it changes
when the magnet arrives at the winding in the generator? In my world,
it doesn't. A two phase generator looks like two sine wave voltage sources
that are N degrees apart. N is defined by the physical separation of
the windings, period. If I put a scope probe on each of those windings
I see two traces, N degrees apart. Putting a resistor between them does
not change what I see and what's there. The rotating magnet arrives at
exactly the same time, same phase angle.






S L O W L Y

Slowly, transformers are totally unnecessary to create a N phase
power source. Transformers are your diversion into the wilderness.
You keep going to specific implementations of whatever with a transformer
instead of address the simple case WITHOUT transformers, which just
are an additional complication.






This is what you told me was 2 phase but it is 3 phase delta.
https://myelectrical.com/Portals/0/SunBlogNuke/2/WindowsLiveWriter/WhatisanOpenDeltaTransformer_A776/Open%20Delta%20Transformer_thumb.jpg
It is even labeled as such and if you google delta vee transformer
(open delta etc) you can see 100 other references that look just like
it.

OK, so you have 3 phase going into a transformer and three phases going
out, so what?



When you rotate that second winding anywhere off of a straight line,
(zero or 180 angular displacement) this is what you have. If I ground
that line on the bottom of the picture I will have a corner grounded
delta. You now see why I say that looks exactly like a single phase.
In fact that wire would be required to be white if I grounded it.
With me so far?

If I rotate that field to be a straight line, (180 or zero is the same
thing with a semantic difference), poof, you have single phase.
You can call that trig or you can call that ****ing magic, I don't
care but it is true. You can't get to "2 phase" without 2 separated
sources.

BTW you keep talking about 181 degrees. Show me that on a standard
protractor. Mine has 0 and 180, in a straight line.
Most are labeled both ways so 180 = 0.
https://tinyurl.com/y8o2q8w7


Just beyond bizarre. I'm not the only one here who has explained to you
that with AC sine waves, 180 is a sine wave of OPPOSITE polarity. It's
not a sine wave of 0 degrees. If I have two sine wave voltage conductors
of the same voltage:

V1 = sin(wt)

V2 = sin(wt+0)

I can connect those together, parallel them, because they are of the SAME PHASE

In the other hand, if I have two that are 180 out of phase:

V1 = sin(wt)

V2 = sin(st+180)

I can't connect them because you will be shorting two opposite voltage
source together.



You really are lost here. And diverting to transformers doesn't address
any of this.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:10:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
It really is that simple. If you
make N=90, you have the old 90 deg two phase implemented over 3 wires
instead of two.

And what if you make N = 180 deg

How many phases do you have now?

m

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system. That poor 240 deg phase, IDK what happened
to it. He also said something about if I make the 120 phase to 179, then
it's still 3 phase, but if I make it 181, then somehow POOF it might
be the same as 179? But for sure at 180 that phase disappears.

In my world if you draw the phasor diagram for 3 phase, it has 3 phases
and always will, as long as there are 3 windings at different angles
on the shaft. And if one happens
to be at 180, that's where it is. Curiously, if I ask a student to analyze
what's coming into a house and draw the phasor diagram for it, what would
he draw? It would be two 120V vectors, one at 0, one at 180 degrees.

Which again is totally consistent with what I said about voltage, phase
and ampacity being all you need to know to define and analyze the service
into the house. If I tell you this about the service:

60 Hz sinusoidal sources
It's 3 wires, shared neutral.
Two 120V voltage sources, 180 deg out of phase from each other
with respect to the neutral
Each voltage source can deliver up to 200 amps


Do you need to know anything else to design with it? To analyze it?
To explain what you see, what's going on? Do the appliances care that
it came from a transformer, generator or synthesized from a battery?

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 13:16:25 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:



And you keep being ignorant of the fact that what you describe will
end up being 3 phase delta. In fact when I showed you a typical 3p
delta done with 2 windings (transformer or generator, makes no
difference) you tried to tell me it was 2 phase.
You just do not know what you are talking about so it is hard to take
your questions seriously.


According to you no one here knows what they are talking about except you.
The IEEE Fellow, prof, power engineer, he's confused too. He's using trig functions in his analysis, even though there isn't a trig function there.
You can't deal with a very simple generator with two windings. According
to you, it's impossible to have two phases from a generator without
4 wires. Which of course is BS. How then do we get 3 phases with just
3 wires? Explain that? Hello?

I get three phase with three wires very easily. If it is a delta you
have phase A, B and C That is three. Look at any high voltage
transmission line to see it out in the open for all to see.
That is 3p, ungrounded, delta. (not to be confused with the medium
voltage 3P wye used some places for local distribution)

If you have any phase shift between winding 1 and 2, the third phase
will just show up on a poof.
I showed you a picture that you keep calling 2 phase when it is
clearly labeled 3P delta.
Should I find you more?
Just measure the voltage between the 2 unterminated ends. In fact that
is what this shows (V-BC)
https://www.electricalpereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Open-Delta-Connection-Diagram-2.png
You might also look for "open delta" since delta V will bring you a
lot of articles about "velocity".
The only thing I see strange in the articles I read is they talk like
it is unusual. We have open delta services all over around here., It
is a cheap way for FPL to give a small user 3 phase (2 transformers)
I don't have to drive far to see one.

On 08/09/2018 04:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

If you think you see an oddity like that (phase disappearing at 180),
there's something wrong.

I'm beginning to understand about 2 phases making a 3-phase delta
system, but there's still something wrong with that "disappearing
phase(es)".

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who
have lost the power or reasoning." -- Voltaire, Philosophical
Dictionary, 1764

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 2:19:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:10:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
It really is that simple. If you
make N=90, you have the old 90 deg two phase implemented over 3 wires
instead of two.

And what if you make N = 180 deg

How many phases do you have now?

m

Two phases, which is precisely my point. If you have two phases at 90,
two phases at 179, two at 181, then you have two at 180.
It's all consistent. Otherwise there is a "parlor trick" at 180.


I refer to transformers because that is what we use

You keep going off to transformers because you can't explain the simple
circuits and divert to the wilderness.


Everything I say also will apply to a generator winding. You are the
one off in the wilderness talking about things that don't exist.
Transformers and generators are easy to see.

but you can
replace the primary with a rotating field (alternator) and nothing
changes.

That's why I tried to show you how a simple two phase or a three
phase generator source can be morphed into exactly the same thing
as 240/120 but you instead are now making silly claims, like I
can't have two phases without 4 wires. BTW, if I can't have two
phases without 4 wires, what happens in your split-phase motor,
where we have two phases on 3 wires? I morphed the 3 phase into
the service into your house too, but you claim magic happens.
There are still 3 phases when I move one winding to 179 deg, but
at 180, POOF, it's gone! And even more bizarre, you claim that
if I move it to 181, it becomes 179 again? Wow.

It disappears because at 180, you have a straight line with no phase
shift. You can't have any kind of poly phase without a phase shift.


The problem you can't have just 2 phases if they are connected. Until
you understand that we will keep laughing at you.

These folks aren't laughing:

https://www.eeweb.com/quizzes/two-ph...ee-wire-system

https://cdn.eeweb.com/articles/quizz...1430295632.png

What is "Sq/rt 2V" in this diagram but a 3d phase?

The next frame shows it like this
https://cdn.eeweb.com/articles/quizz...1430295633.png

and explains why you never see it.

As compared to 2-phase, 4-wire system (Figure 2), the 3-wire system
suffers from the defect that it produces voltage unbalance because of
the unsymmetrical voltage drop in the neutral.

Source:
A.K Theraja and B.L Theraja. A Textbook of Electrical Technology.
Volume 3. Transmission, Distribution and Utilization. Chapter 41. pp.
1614-1615. [1] Chapter 41.6. pp. 1608. Ram Nagar, New Delhi. 2005.



S L O W L Y

Slowly, transformers are totally unnecessary to create a N phase
power source. Transformers are your diversion into the wilderness.
You keep going to specific implementations of whatever with a transformer
instead of address the simple case WITHOUT transformers, which just
are an additional complication.

I already told you, everything I say still works just fine with
generator windings. Where are you getting your voltage out that pink
unicorn's ass?.

This is what you told me was 2 phase but it is 3 phase delta.
https://myelectrical.com/Portals/0/SunBlogNuke/2/WindowsLiveWriter/WhatisanOpenDeltaTransformer_A776/Open%20Delta%20Transformer_thumb.jpg
It is even labeled as such and if you google delta vee transformer
(open delta etc) you can see 100 other references that look just like
it.

OK, so you have 3 phase going into a transformer and three phases going
out, so what?

With 2 windings and a phase shift.

When you rotate that second winding anywhere off of a straight line,
(zero or 180 angular displacement) this is what you have. If I ground
that line on the bottom of the picture I will have a corner grounded
delta. You now see why I say that looks exactly like a single phase.
In fact that wire would be required to be white if I grounded it.
With me so far?

If I rotate that field to be a straight line, (180 or zero is the same
thing with a semantic difference), poof, you have single phase.
You can call that trig or you can call that ****ing magic, I don't
care but it is true. You can't get to "2 phase" without 2 separated
sources.

BTW you keep talking about 181 degrees. Show me that on a standard
protractor. Mine has 0 and 180, in a straight line.
Most are labeled both ways so 180 = 0.
https://tinyurl.com/y8o2q8w7


Just beyond bizarre. I'm not the only one here who has explained to you
that with AC sine waves, 180 is a sine wave of OPPOSITE polarity. It's
not a sine wave of 0 degrees. If I have two sine wave voltage conductors
of the same voltage:
I can't connect them because you will be shorting two opposite voltage
source together.

All you have really proved is that opposite ends of a voltage source
are at different potential and you can't short them together.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

Your scenario was 2 windings and if 2 windings have no angular
displacement (wound around the core, generator or transformer in the
same direction and excited in the same axis magnetically or
mechanically), the output is single phase.

In a 2 winding 3p system the 3d phase is induced by the angular
displacement of the other two.

On 8/9/2018 5:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180.

Fretwell's correct!

If you think of it as a snapshot in time, you essentially have a dc charge on each of the coils.Â* If the 2 coils are 180° apart, then the instantaneous charge voltage on the first coil will always be the opposite of the second coil.


For example, below I have two identical coils mounted on a shaft with the second coil mounted 180 degrees with respect to the first. The two coils are connected in series as shown.

The output of the second coil will always be the opposite polarity of the first coil.


------ Â* [Â* (+) polarity of coil at 0 degrees (-)Â* ]Â*Â* ---------- Â*Â* [Â* (-) polarity of coil at 180 degrees (+)Â* ] Â* Â* ------


Since the two coils are always at opposite polarity to each other, they would in fact cancel each other out.Â* (Think of it as a 2-cell series battery pack where some clueless democrat put one of the cells in backwards.)


And FWIW, this instantaneous snapshot also illustrates why the ubiquitous residential center-tapped transformer is not 180 degree 2-phase.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:09:17 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 08/09/2018 04:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

If you think you see an oddity like that (phase disappearing at 180),
there's something wrong.

I'm beginning to understand about 2 phases making a 3-phase delta
system, but there's still something wrong with that "disappearing
phase(es)".

It is not odd but if you do have 3 windings and one comes off the
center tap of the single phase winding (Traders rotated to 180)
you actually do see 2 phase. That is the Scott T connection I have
talked about but it required 3 windings in a wye, not 2 end to end.
You also get that illusion on a scope if you look at a center tapped
delta.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/High_leg_delta_transformer.svg/330px-High_leg_delta_transformer.svg.png
You will swear you are looking at 2 phase with a 90 degree
displacement but your 3 phase motors are happily humming along.
It is pretty much impossible to scope that pretty 3 phase signal you
see in the book even if you "float" the scope..

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:20:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 2:19:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:10:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
It really is that simple. If you
make N=90, you have the old 90 deg two phase implemented over 3 wires
instead of two.

And what if you make N = 180 deg

How many phases do you have now?

m

Two phases, which is precisely my point. If you have two phases at 90,
two phases at 179, two at 181, then you have two at 180.
It's all consistent. Otherwise there is a "parlor trick" at 180.


I refer to transformers because that is what we use

You keep going off to transformers because you can't explain the simple
circuits and divert to the wilderness.


Everything I say also will apply to a generator winding. You are the
one off in the wilderness talking about things that don't exist.
Transformers and generators are easy to see.


So now it's back to the position that we can only talk about that
which has actually been built.






but you can
replace the primary with a rotating field (alternator) and nothing
changes.

That's why I tried to show you how a simple two phase or a three
phase generator source can be morphed into exactly the same thing
as 240/120 but you instead are now making silly claims, like I
can't have two phases without 4 wires. BTW, if I can't have two
phases without 4 wires, what happens in your split-phase motor,
where we have two phases on 3 wires? I morphed the 3 phase into
the service into your house too, but you claim magic happens.
There are still 3 phases when I move one winding to 179 deg, but
at 180, POOF, it's gone! And even more bizarre, you claim that
if I move it to 181, it becomes 179 again? Wow.

It disappears because at 180, you have a straight line with no phase
shift. You can't have any kind of poly phase without a phase shift.


Draw us the phasor diagram for a three phase 120V generator. Mine
has 120V vectors at 0, 120, and 240 degrees. Rotate the 120 winding
to 179. Now the drawing has the 120 vector moved to 179 degrees.
It would seem you agree with that, you said it was still 3 phases
if I rotated the 120 to 179, right?
Now move it to 180, my drawing still has a 120V vector at 180 degrees.
It would be some bizarre world where it suddenly disappeared. You're
telling us your phasor diagram for that generator would now only have
two vectors, one at 0, one at 240? And further, you said it now
becomes single phase. Where did that poor 240 phase disappear to?
This is just nuts. You really need to rethink that.

BTW, what's your phasor diagram for the 240/120 service? Mine is
two 120V vectors, one at 0 deg, one at 180 deg. See how easy it is
and how it all works when you're consistent?





The problem you can't have just 2 phases if they are connected. Until
you understand that we will keep laughing at you.

These folks aren't laughing:

https://www.eeweb.com/quizzes/two-ph...ee-wire-system

https://cdn.eeweb.com/articles/quizz...1430295632.png

What is "Sq/rt 2V" in this diagram but a 3d phase?

It's not a third phase from the power source. It's not being generated
at the power source. It's the DIFFERENCE between the two phases supplied.
And clearly they are calling it, showing it, as TWO PHASE POWER, not
3 phase.




The next frame shows it like this
https://cdn.eeweb.com/articles/quizz...1430295633.png

Uh, well, no it doesn't do that at all. That diagram is clearly shown
as the old 4 wire system. They clearly say BOTH 3 wire and 4 wire two
phase are possible. They show both. They say:

[1]The 2-Phase, 3-Wire System is still used at some places. The third wire is taken from the junction of the two phase-windings I and II, whose voltages are in quadrature with each other as shown in Figure 1.

(Imagine that, exactly my generator example that you say is impossible)

And then they say:


As compared to 2-phase, 4-wire system (Figure 2), the 3-wire system suffers from the defect that it produces voltage unbalance because of the unsymmetrical voltage drop in the neutral.



They don't say, no it doesn't exist, no it's impossible, no it's really
3 phase. In other words, they completely agree with my position.




and explains why you never see it.

As compared to 2-phase, 4-wire system (Figure 2), the 3-wire system
suffers from the defect that it produces voltage unbalance because of
the unsymmetrical voltage drop in the neutral.

Irrelevant of course. We were looking at what makes two phase power
or N phase power, not what the efficiency of any given implementation is
or why it is or isn't used.




Source:
A.K Theraja and B.L Theraja. A Textbook of Electrical Technology.
Volume 3. Transmission, Distribution and Utilization. Chapter 41. pp.
1614-1615. [1] Chapter 41.6. pp. 1608. Ram Nagar, New Delhi. 2005.



S L O W L Y

Slowly, transformers are totally unnecessary to create a N phase
power source. Transformers are your diversion into the wilderness.
You keep going to specific implementations of whatever with a transformer
instead of address the simple case WITHOUT transformers, which just
are an additional complication.

I already told you, everything I say still works just fine with
generator windings. Where are you getting your voltage out that pink
unicorn's ass?.

I get it the same place as the example above, which you appear to
accept, except for the fact that it shows two phase power over just
3 wires, I guess. Even better, they actually say that two phases
over 3 wires actually exists.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:28:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

Your scenario was 2 windings and if 2 windings have no angular
displacement (wound around the core, generator or transformer in the
same direction and excited in the same axis magnetically or
mechanically), the output is single phase.

Good grief, from the very beginning I have had the winding with
differing angles in each of the two very simple examples I gave you.
In this example it was 3 phases. One at 0, one at 120, one at 240.
That is 3 phase, yes? So now I rotate the 120 winding so it's at 179.
You said that was still 3 phase. So, if I drew a phasor diagram, I'd
have three vectors, one at 0, one at 179, one at 240, you agreed with
that. Now I rotate it one more degree to 180 and POOF, it's gone?
Your phasor diagram would now have only two vectors? And why would
that not be two phase, since there are only two in your world?

My world, there are still three vectors and it's still 3 phase. It's
easy when you know the rules and apply them consistently.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:34:03 PM UTC-4, single.phase wrote:
On 8/9/2018 5:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180.

Fretwell's correct!

If you think of it as a snapshot in time, you essentially have a dc charge on each of the coils.Â* If the 2 coils are 180° apart, then the instantaneous charge voltage on the first coil will always be the opposite of the second coil.


For example, below I have two identical coils mounted on a shaft with the second coil mounted 180 degrees with respect to the first. The two coils are connected in series as shown.

The output of the second coil will always be the opposite polarity of the first coil.

Duh! Opposite polarity is the same thing as 180 deg phase difference.






------ Â* [Â* (+) polarity of coil at 0 degrees (-)Â* ]Â*Â* ---------- Â*Â* [Â* (-) polarity of coil at 180 degrees (+)Â* ] Â* Â* ------


Since the two coils are always at opposite polarity to each other, they would in fact cancel each other out.Â* (Think of it as a 2-cell series battery pack where some clueless democrat put one of the cells in backwards.)

I see, so the two 120V voltage sources coming from the transformer into
my house cancel each other out and I have zero volts? Nice.

Let's go back to the generator. I want to make sure I get you on record.
I have a 3 phase generator with windings separated by 0, 120, 240 degrees.
I ask you to draw the phasor diagram for it. Mine and everyone else in
the world who knows WTF they are doing, draws it with a vector at 0,
a vector at 120, a vector at 240. How do you draw it?


Now I rotate the 120 winding to 179. Fretwell says that's 3 phase, IDK
what his diagram is, but hopefully it a vector at 0, one at 179, one at 240?
What's your diagram?

Now I rotate it one more degree. My diagram has one vector at 0, one at 180,
one at 240. Yours? If the one at 180 is gone, there is your parlor trick.
It would really be something. At 179 I had a vector, a winding that was
delivering power, that could be analyzed just like any other phase vector.
But now because it happens to be 180, it's gone? Since it's no longer on
the phasor diagram, you can go grab hold of it, there is no voltage, no
power there, right?

It's amazing how you can't grasp the basics.










And FWIW, this instantaneous snapshot also illustrates why the ubiquitous residential center-tapped transformer is not 180 degree 2-phase.

Quite the opposite, it shows that it is, just like the IEEE Fellow,
prof of electrical engineering, who consults for utilities said in his
paper that he presented to his peers at a power industry conference,
published by the IEEE. Why don't you try drawing the phasor diagram for it?
Mine is two 120V vectors, one at 0 deg, one at 180 deg. Show us your
phasor diagram that gives you 240/120 service.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:28:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

Your scenario was 2 windings and if 2 windings have no angular
displacement (wound around the core, generator or transformer in the
same direction and excited in the same axis magnetically or
mechanically), the output is single phase.

Good grief, from the very beginning I have had the winding with
differing angles in each of the two very simple examples I gave you.
In this example it was 3 phases. One at 0, one at 120, one at 240.
That is 3 phase, yes? So now I rotate the 120 winding so it's at 179.
You said that was still 3 phase. So, if I drew a phasor diagram, I'd
have three vectors, one at 0, one at 179, one at 240, you agreed with
that. Now I rotate it one more degree to 180 and POOF, it's gone?
Your phasor diagram would now have only two vectors? And why would
that not be two phase, since there are only two in your world?

My world, there are still three vectors and it's still 3 phase. It's
easy when you know the rules and apply them consistently.

I noticed you did not respond to the numerous posts that showed you 3
phase delta with two windings. These exist on poles all over the
country, not in your fertile imagination.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:18:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:34:03 PM UTC-4, single.phase wrote:
On 8/9/2018 5:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180.

Fretwell's correct!

If you think of it as a snapshot in time, you essentially have a dc charge on each of the coils.Â* If the 2 coils are 180° apart, then the instantaneous charge voltage on the first coil will always be the opposite of the second coil.


For example, below I have two identical coils mounted on a shaft with the second coil mounted 180 degrees with respect to the first. The two coils are connected in series as shown.

The output of the second coil will always be the opposite polarity of the first coil.

Duh! Opposite polarity is the same thing as 180 deg phase difference.

Not really but if you believe that the rest of your rants are right.
I just want to know how you can generate a phase difference in one
piece of wire without a capacitor?

You have made a discovery that Tesla and Westinghouse seemed to miss.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:07:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:28:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

Your scenario was 2 windings and if 2 windings have no angular
displacement (wound around the core, generator or transformer in the
same direction and excited in the same axis magnetically or
mechanically), the output is single phase.

Good grief, from the very beginning I have had the winding with
differing angles in each of the two very simple examples I gave you.
In this example it was 3 phases. One at 0, one at 120, one at 240.
That is 3 phase, yes? So now I rotate the 120 winding so it's at 179.
You said that was still 3 phase. So, if I drew a phasor diagram, I'd
have three vectors, one at 0, one at 179, one at 240, you agreed with
that. Now I rotate it one more degree to 180 and POOF, it's gone?
Your phasor diagram would now have only two vectors? And why would
that not be two phase, since there are only two in your world?

My world, there are still three vectors and it's still 3 phase. It's
easy when you know the rules and apply them consistently.

I noticed you did not respond to the numerous posts that showed you 3
phase delta with two windings. These exist on poles all over the
country, not in your fertile imagination.

I notice that you almost never respond to what I post, instead diverting
to transformers. Transformers are not required and are a redirection to
the wilderness.

I ask again, draw a phasor diagram for a 3 phase generator. You have
vectors at 0, 120, 240 deg, yes? They represent PHASES, with voltages,
power that are real. Now rotate the 120 phase winding to 179 deg. You say
we still have 3 phases. Let's draw the diagram again. We simply move
the 120 vector over to 179. And you say that still represents 3 phases.
Now I move the winding to 180 and we suddenly have two very different views of
what is correct.

I say you simply move the vector one degree, you now have a 3 phase diagram
with vectors at 0, 180, 240 deg. It defines and explains what is there.

You say that POOF, somehow now I have single phase. I still haven't heard
your version of the new diagram, but presumably the 180 phase vector just
disappeared? If so, where did it go? Those three vectors represented
voltage and power, I just lost one by moving it one degree? Does that
make sense from anything you know about physics, science, electricity?
Can I now grab hold of that 180 phase? If not, then there must be voltage
there, power there, yet it's not on the phasor diagram?

And if you follow my generator example to the next step, which is to
get rid of the 240 winding, then you have two vectors left, one at 0 deg,
one at 180 deg, and the service into a house.


BTW, the phasor diagram explains your open delta configuration too.

And I can draw a phasor diagram that represents the 240/120 service into
a house. One 120V vector at 0 degrees, one 120V vector at 180 degrees.
It all works beautifully, it's all consistent. Where is your alternate
phasor diagram for that, where there are not two vectors?

Again, if I tell an electrical engineer that they have a three
wire power source whe

two 120v voltage sources share a common neutral
one source is 180 deg out of phase with the other
either source can deliver a max of 200A

That's all they need to know to analyze it, use it, design with it.
It doesn't matter if it came from a transformer, generator, or synthesized
from an electronic black box. They can draw the phasor diagram that
represents it. It's the 3 wire service into a house.

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:18:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:18:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:34:03 PM UTC-4, single.phase wrote:
On 8/9/2018 5:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180.

Fretwell's correct!

If you think of it as a snapshot in time, you essentially have a dc charge on each of the coils.Â* If the 2 coils are 180° apart, then the instantaneous charge voltage on the first coil will always be the opposite of the second coil.


For example, below I have two identical coils mounted on a shaft with the second coil mounted 180 degrees with respect to the first. The two coils are connected in series as shown.

The output of the second coil will always be the opposite polarity of the first coil.

Duh! Opposite polarity is the same thing as 180 deg phase difference.

Not really but if you believe that the rest of your rants are right.
I just want to know how you can generate a phase difference in one
piece of wire without a capacitor?

An inductor would be one way. But we don't have one piece of wire.
We have 3 wires, two hots and a shared neutral. One of those hots is
of opposite phase, opposite polarity, with respect to the other. It
has to be, it's the very essence of how the circuit works.
And from that, all electrical engineering analysis flows.



You have made a discovery that Tesla and Westinghouse seemed to miss.

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 07:44:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:18:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:18:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:34:03 PM UTC-4, single.phase wrote:
On 8/9/2018 5:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180.

Fretwell's correct!

If you think of it as a snapshot in time, you essentially have a dc charge on each of the coils.Â* If the 2 coils are 180° apart, then the instantaneous charge voltage on the first coil will always be the opposite of the second coil.


For example, below I have two identical coils mounted on a shaft with the second coil mounted 180 degrees with respect to the first. The two coils are connected in series as shown.

The output of the second coil will always be the opposite polarity of the first coil.

Duh! Opposite polarity is the same thing as 180 deg phase difference.

Not really but if you believe that the rest of your rants are right.
I just want to know how you can generate a phase difference in one
piece of wire without a capacitor?

An inductor would be one way. But we don't have one piece of wire.
We have 3 wires, two hots and a shared neutral. One of those hots is
of opposite phase, opposite polarity, with respect to the other. It
has to be, it's the very essence of how the circuit works.
And from that, all electrical engineering analysis flows.

An inductor and a capacitor, like how they split the phase to start a
motor

The secondary is one piece of wire. You just tapped it 3 times.



You have made a discovery that Tesla and Westinghouse seemed to miss.

posted for all of us...



On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 17:50:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 2:46:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:51:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:39:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

When you lie you can always make your point.
I never agreed you were right about any of this.
Two phase simply does not work like this

I clearly said *I believe* you said that it would be two phase. But it's
hard to keep track, because you won't answer a simple series of questions,
instead you bail out, claiming you can't answer a simple question about
whether a phase still exists when I change the angle from 90 to some other
choice, because "that system doesn't exist". So much for electrical
engineering, now it's claimed that we can only analyze that which is
actually deployed. That would get expensive fast.

I have answered you silly quiz TWICE
At least as much as you can answer nonsense questions.

They are all perfectly legitimate questions that any first week circuits 101
student should be able to answer. And you don't answer them in series,
you go part way into the example and then you start talking about transformers
when there are no transformers in the simple problem and you bail.

I already let you have generators and your theory still falls apart.

I prefer to live in reality and not some theoretical world where only
pink unicorns and blue oxen live.

Engineers can answer simple theoretical circuit questions. This is a
bizarre position, that only that which has been built can be analyzed
and explained.

Engineers live in a theoretical world. Ever see one wire a house? It
is zip cord and flying splices because that works on paper.



So feel free to give us your definitive answer to the above simple question.
Here it is again, go step by step:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V from each
phase to the neutral. So, you have a generator supplying 120V on
each of two windings on the same shaft 90 deg phase difference,
one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there?

I have to stop you there. You are just full of ****. Two phase
requires FOUR ungrounded conductors.
They either look like an X or T but they still act like an X

Two phases requires four ungrounded conductors according to whom, exactly?

The people who wire the grid.


I can have three phase with only three! And that exists, right?

You might, theoretically be able to have it but it doesn't exist in
the power distribution system.
I live in the real world. I am not sure what planet you are on.



So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
shared neutral, 120V, two phases, 90 deg phase difference, correct?
I could hook a scope up to the neutral and see two phases, 90 deg
apart, correct?

If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there, where one phase just went.


S L O W L Y
When you rotate to 180 you have ONE PHASE, no matter how many times
you tap the output source.
A 180 degree phase angle is no angle at all it is a straight line.

A unique singularity in the world of electrical engineering? That
indeed is your parlor trick! You told us that 3 phases exists with
phases at 0, 120, 240. Yes? I have to check, because above you say
that two phases can't exist without 4 conductors, so that would imply
that 3 phase requires more than 4 conductors. But previously you just
told us that I can have:
Perhaps you should just look at the geometry of the way these are
generated in the real world. I don't know what might be possible in
the lab.

I understand reality is a foreign planet to you but this is a diagram
of a 3phase "Scott Tee" making 2 phase. (drawn by a power engineer,
not a college geek)

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/theory/2phd1.gif

The 2 phase out is on the bottom.

I think we should get Arlen Holder involved in this discussion.

--
Tekkie

Mark Lloyd posted for all of us...



I don't really know much about delta, but I do know what a phase is.


I went through a phase once, then I smartened up.

--
Tekkie