On 8/6/2018 3:48 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
We live in the real world, not some place where theory trumps reality

The fact remains when you rotate an angle to 180, you have a straight
line and there is no phase angle.
When you stand in the middle of anything and look both ways, you might
think you are looking at two things but it is one thing


I don't feel lke getting into this, but ask old T4 what hapens to his 2
phase transformer and 2 chanel o-scope if he hooks the 'ground' to one
end of the transformer and looks at the signal withthe other 2 probes at
the center and other end.

Then try that with a 3 pahse system.

Exactly.Â* It goes back to simple physics 101.

In general, with a purely resistive load on the secondary, whatever waveform is on the primary is mapped to the secondary. Single phase in, single phase out.

I think troll_4 is just trying to screw with us.

On 8/6/2018 3:05 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:29:30 -0400, Single Phase wrote:

On 8/6/2018 11:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there.
A residential transformer secondary is one continuous conductor from end L1 to end L2.

Assuming a purely resistive load on the secondary and ignoring crossings where Volts=0,

at any point in time the current is either flowing from L1 towards L2 or from L2 towards L1.

In order for the transformer secondary to truly have 2-phases 180° apart, the current would have to be flowing from L1 towards L2 AND from L2 towards L1 at the same instant.

And that, my liberal friend, would be the mother of all parlor tricks.
It is not even a parlor trick to actually connect 2 transformers
together that are truly 180 out of phase and you would then have 2
separate voltage sources grounded in the middle but you would not have
240v available to you, no matter what you did and no current would
ever flow in the neutral.

Yah, traitor tries to spread phake news about President Trump, now he's trying to hit us with phake physics too.Â* You might say he's two-phake.

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:53:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 08:04:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 2:54:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 1:36:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 9:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 15:54:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 3:50:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 12:40:52 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 08/04/2018 10:54 AM, wrote:

[snip]


Google up "delta vee", "Scott tee" and stop sounding ignorant of the
facts.

I looked those up. As I expected, they are "delta V" and "Scott T".
Often pronounced the other way, but written this way.

You also can't have a phase relationship more than 180 degrees (as you
have theorized) because the phase rotation would change and we would
be back to the complementary angle going the other way.

If it's going the other way (and not 180?*), it's a different phase.
120? is different from -120? (also called 240?). It's on the OTHER SIDE
(or the circle). A complete cycle is 360? not 180.

* since 180? IS equal to -180?

[snip]

But when you are talking about a triangle (which 3p Delta looks like)

We're not talking about 3 phase, you're dragging that in for obfuscation.
But since you want to go there, it's one of the problems I presented you
in your simple series of questions that you can't answer. Here it is
again:


But that is exactly what you get when you have 2 end to end
secondaries out of phase with each other. The 3d phase will suddenly
appear. Until you understand that, the rest of your scenario is
bull****.

You're really wandering in the wilderness here. First, it's again noted
that you can't discuss simple scenarios, simple systems with a generator
with two windings that have a phase difference, without diverting back
to transformers and secondaries. FORGET about transformers, they are not
required. The third phase in our power grid doesn't "appear" from a
transformer, it's generated from one of the THREE windings at the generator.
It really is that simple. Maybe we should start with that simple
question. Do you agree with that? That a 3 phase generator at the power
plant has three windings? One at zero, one at 120, one at 240 degrees?

They do but only for efficiency, I think it would still work if they
had 2.

OK, so you agree there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240. It's a wye with
neutral coming out of the generator. I run that into a house,
it's 3 phases, correct?

PoCo generators make delta but OK

Now I rotate one winding so that instead of 120, it's at 140 or 179 deg,
is it still 3 phases?

Another pink unicorn. Talk real life and I will engage.

Real electrical engineers can engage on any generator, any number
of phases, and phase angle. There is nothing sacred about
any specific degrees of phase. And I suspect you know that,
it's just that when you have
to rotate it to various angles, you know how it leads step by step
to being electrically identical to 240/120v, so you won't address it.







We talk about transformers because that is how the power gets into the
house. The source comes out of the power plant as ungrounded 3p delta.
That is transmitted as high voltage, ungrounded 3p delta. Medium
voltage (street level) distribution will either be ungrounded 3p delta
or 3p wye (usually at 13-26kv).
You don't get to see that center tap until it gets to your service
drop.
That is why we need to talk about transformers and not some pink
unicorn fantasy voltage distribution.

That's just total BS. If that's the case, what do you do in FL when
your power goes out? I plug in a generator, one proof that you
don't need a transformer.

It is still a single center tapped winding coming out of the generator
producing single phase power. There is no substantial difference in a
generator and a transformer except that the magnetic field to the
"secondary" is produced mechanically instead of electrically.

And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there.

I've done the same thing with 3 phase, change one phase angle from 120
to 180, get rid of the conductor that's 240 phase, and you have the
exact same thing as your home generator or 240/120 service. But you
won't address that example either, calling it a pink unicorn, because
it too is exactly the same as 240/120 and you can't explain where
a phase disappeared to.

In short, I can address all cases, answer all questions, which are at
the circuits 101 first couple of days level. No need to claim something
is a pink unicorn. That's why you can't answer those series of simple
questions, you're stuck.

We live in the real world, not some place where theory trumps reality

Put that down on as an answer on your circuits 101 test. I can't answer
a simple theoretical circuits question because it doesn't exist. I must
have it implemented in an actual circuit before me. Do you not see how
silly that sounds? The reason you can't answer those questions, one after
the other is it leads directly to unanswerable contradictions. When you
apply electrical engineering consistently, there are no contradictions.






The fact remains when you rotate an angle to 180, you have a straight
line and there is no phase angle.

Complete nonsense. A phase angle of 180 is every bit as real as ones at
90, 120, 179 or 181. At an angle of 180, two voltage sources are direct
opposites of each other. It really, really is that simple. Which again
is why I can answer all those simple questions a student would ask.



When you stand in the middle of anything and look both ways, you might
think you are looking at two things but it is one thing

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 12:29:36 PM UTC-4, Single Phase wrote:
On 8/6/2018 11:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there.

A residential transformer secondary is one continuous conductor from end L1 to end L2.

Assuming a purely resistive load on the secondary and ignoring crossings where Volts=0,

at any point in time the current is either flowing from L1 towards L2 or from L2 towards L1.

In order for the transformer secondary to truly have 2-phases 180° apart, the current would have to be flowing from L1 towards L2 AND from L2 towards L1 at the same instant.

And that, my liberal friend, would be the mother of all parlor tricks.

That would be true only if the circuit did not have a center tap.
With the center tap it becomse TWO 120V voltage sources. Do you disagree
with that? If it does not become two 120V voltage sources, explain how
we get 120V with a load on just one side of the secondary.

With two voltage sources, it looks like two batteries stacked one on top of the
other. Do that. Put two 9V batteries one on top of the other with a
tap between them. You can no longer treat it as just current flowing
through both, from one end to the other. You have two conductors now
that are of OPPOSITE POLARITY or 180 deg phase difference in the AC
world. Put a load on just the upper half circuit and current flows
from the upper battery positive through the load and out the neutral back to
the upper battery negative That current is flowing out the neutral, yes?

OK, now instead put a load on the lower battery. Because it's of OPPOSITE polarity,
the current will flow from the lower battery positive through the neutral
through the load and out the
connection back to the negative side of the lower battery. It's current
flow in the OPPOSITE direction on the neutral. That is exactly what
happens with the transformer secondary. In the special case where the
loads happen to be balanced, the two currents in opposite directions
cancel each other out and you have zero neutral current.

The essence of the problem here is that you cannot have this service
working without TWO voltage sources, one has to be of the opposite polarity
of the other with respect to the neutral. Opposite polarity and a phase
difference of 180 are the same thing in an AC circuit.

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 3:05:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:29:30 -0400, Single Phase wrote:

On 8/6/2018 11:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there.

A residential transformer secondary is one continuous conductor from end L1 to end L2.

Assuming a purely resistive load on the secondary and ignoring crossings where Volts=0,

at any point in time the current is either flowing from L1 towards L2 or from L2 towards L1.

In order for the transformer secondary to truly have 2-phases 180° apart, the current would have to be flowing from L1 towards L2 AND from L2 towards L1 at the same instant.

And that, my liberal friend, would be the mother of all parlor tricks.

It is not even a parlor trick to actually connect 2 transformers
together that are truly 180 out of phase and you would then have 2
separate voltage sources grounded in the middle but you would not have
240v available to you, no matter what you did and no current would
ever flow in the neutral.

Back to the transformer fetish? Why can't you answer simple questions
about a generator with two windings? Good grief. I can.



Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.


Problem number 4:

Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO
voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the
other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you
like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is
what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage
sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying,
you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how
you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model..

Problem number 4:

Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a house.
My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral or of alternate polarity if you like.
You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity.

Y

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 6:25:21 PM UTC-4, Troll Buster wrote:
On 8/6/2018 3:48 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...
We live in the real world, not some place where theory trumps reality

The fact remains when you rotate an angle to 180, you have a straight
line and there is no phase angle.
When you stand in the middle of anything and look both ways, you might
think you are looking at two things but it is one thing


I don't feel lke getting into this, but ask old T4 what hapens to his 2
phase transformer and 2 chanel o-scope if he hooks the 'ground' to one
end of the transformer and looks at the signal withthe other 2 probes at
the center and other end.

Then try that with a 3 pahse system.

Exactly.Â* It goes back to simple physics 101.

In general, with a purely resistive load on the secondary, whatever waveform is on the primary is mapped to the secondary. Single phase in, single phase out.

I think troll_4 is just trying to screw with us.

Is the IEEE Fellow, elect engineering professor, with 40 years experience,
who consults for utilities, who presented his paper at a power conference
of his peers, published by the IEEE, screwing with you too? He says
exactly the same thing:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4520128/

Abstract:
Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. F

Maybe you can answer the simple circuits 101 questions that no one else
here can answer:

Problem 1:


Define N phase power?


Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.


Problem number 4:

Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO
voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the
other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you
like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is
what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage
sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying,
you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how
you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model..

Problem number 4:

Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a house.
My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral or of alternate polarity if you like.
You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity.

Your answer?

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 3:48:13 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

We live in the real world, not some place where theory trumps reality

The fact remains when you rotate an angle to 180, you have a straight
line and there is no phase angle.
When you stand in the middle of anything and look both ways, you might
think you are looking at two things but it is one thing



I don't feel lke getting into this, but ask old T4 what hapens to his 2
phase transformer and 2 chanel o-scope if he hooks the 'ground' to one
end of the transformer and looks at the signal withthe other 2 probes at
the center and other end.

I went through that with Fretwell already. Look, I was accused of doing
a "parlor trick" with a scope. What did I do? I connected the scope
ground to the SYSTEM neutral. I did not define the neutral as the reference
point, the system designers did. So, it's not a parlor trick to connect
a scope as any beginning student would to look at what's going on in that
circuit. Connect the scope ground to the neutral, put traces of the two
hots on the screen. What do you see? Two 120V voltage sources that are
180 deg out of phase with each other. THAT is the whole point of the Edison
circuit! If you believe you can draw this circuit, model it without two
120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase, or of opposite polarity,
same thing, then show us how. This is the first couple days of circuits 101.
It's the only way to model that circuit, to explain what's going on.




Then try that with a 3 pahse system.

Sigh, IDK where you're going with that. Perhaps you'd like to answer
the simple questions where I start out with 3 phase and step by step
turn it into the same thing as 240/120. And please, if you're going to
do it, don't start wandering off into the wilderness with transformers.
It's very simple stuff. You'd be the first person here, beside myself,
who can answer it:

Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 15:48:04 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

We live in the real world, not some place where theory trumps reality

The fact remains when you rotate an angle to 180, you have a straight
line and there is no phase angle.
When you stand in the middle of anything and look both ways, you might
think you are looking at two things but it is one thing



I don't feel lke getting into this, but ask old T4 what hapens to his 2
phase transformer and 2 chanel o-scope if he hooks the 'ground' to one
end of the transformer and looks at the signal withthe other 2 probes at
the center and other end.

Then try that with a 3 phase system.

You can get something meaningful on a 3p wye (there is no center tap).
but on any kind of delta the scope will just tell you lies. 3p center
tapped delta will look like 2 phase, even showing the B phase 90
degrees out. On corner delta, you will be sure you are looking at
240/480 single phase. You are basically still on a center tap.

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:21:47 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 3:05:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:29:30 -0400, Single Phase wrote:

On 8/6/2018 11:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there.

A residential transformer secondary is one continuous conductor from end L1 to end L2.

Assuming a purely resistive load on the secondary and ignoring crossings where Volts=0,

at any point in time the current is either flowing from L1 towards L2 or from L2 towards L1.

In order for the transformer secondary to truly have 2-phases 180° apart, the current would have to be flowing from L1 towards L2 AND from L2 towards L1 at the same instant.

And that, my liberal friend, would be the mother of all parlor tricks.

It is not even a parlor trick to actually connect 2 transformers
together that are truly 180 out of phase and you would then have 2
separate voltage sources grounded in the middle but you would not have
240v available to you, no matter what you did and no current would
ever flow in the neutral.

Back to the transformer fetish? Why can't you answer simple questions
about a generator with two windings? Good grief. I can.

If I had 2 generator windings out of phase (opposite current flow,
wound in the other direction or how ever you want to define that) same
result.

Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

You simply do not know enough about 2 phase to even engage.


Then you just start sounding stupid

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:40:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

I went through that with Fretwell already. Look, I was accused of doing
a "parlor trick" with a scope. What did I do? I connected the scope
ground to the SYSTEM neutral.

I have explained several times, attaching a scope to a center tap will
make that scope lie to you. I gave you the example of ANY delta.
You corrected me that you can buy a scope with a floating common. OK
put that on L1 and tell me what you see.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/End%...nter%20tap.jpg
and you will see this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/sine...0secondary.jpg

How many phases do you see? I only see one.
Is there any angle shift in that secondary? I don't see any.
A generator would act the same way.
Your "2 supply" thing is just an illusion caused by looking at a
system from the middle.
I understand people have come up with all sorts of things to try to
rationalize what they see with their meter or a scope but it is really
pretty simple if you understand power systems.

I still wonder why you persist with your paralleling bull****. Draw
that out and you will see you are simply connecting L1 to L2 and you
don't need to do anything with the white wire at all. You can leave it
disconnect on both circuits and you still get a bolted fault.

That is your 240/120 service and it could
come from a transformer, be synthesized from a battery, or just exist on
a piece of paper.

Oh my.

So there is another point of semantic confusion in this discussion.

120/240 can mean 120 Volts and 240 Volts can refer to the two voltages in a usual home system.

0/120/240 can also refer to 0 degrees , 120 degrees , 240 degrees, the three phase angles in the usual 3 phase system.


mark

On Friday, May 27, 2011 at 7:17:01 PM UTC-5, Home Guy wrote:
I have a small commercial building with a 3-phase, 120/212 400 amp
service.

The billing meter is in a locked cabinet (for which the local utility
has a key) and out of this cabinet run 4 large cables (each about 1 or
1.25 inches in diameter) that run to...

I wonder how common this situation is -- a hidden meter? Perhaps they
would add a viewing port if this was requested?

During a test when all computers, monitors, printers and
lights are turned off (but all UPS's are still turned on) I
read a total sum of about 4 or 5 amps across all 4 power cables.

Why not also disconnect the UPS's for a few minutes?

What equipment do you have that actually needs 3-phase power?

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 10:56:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:21:47 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 3:05:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:29:30 -0400, Single Phase wrote:

On 8/6/2018 11:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there..

A residential transformer secondary is one continuous conductor from end L1 to end L2.

Assuming a purely resistive load on the secondary and ignoring crossings where Volts=0,

at any point in time the current is either flowing from L1 towards L2 or from L2 towards L1.

In order for the transformer secondary to truly have 2-phases 180° apart, the current would have to be flowing from L1 towards L2 AND from L2 towards L1 at the same instant.

And that, my liberal friend, would be the mother of all parlor tricks..

It is not even a parlor trick to actually connect 2 transformers
together that are truly 180 out of phase and you would then have 2
separate voltage sources grounded in the middle but you would not have
240v available to you, no matter what you did and no current would
ever flow in the neutral.

Back to the transformer fetish? Why can't you answer simple questions
about a generator with two windings? Good grief. I can.

If I had 2 generator windings out of phase (opposite current flow,
wound in the other direction or how ever you want to define that) same
result.

Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

You simply do not know enough about 2 phase to even engage.
I

Then you just start sounding stupid

You can't answer the simple questions a student would ask a teacher in
circuits 101, yet I'm the one who's supposed to be stupid? I give
you a simple example, where I morph the old 90 deg two phase into
exactly what 240/120 service is and you won't answer the questions.
Instead you divert to transformers, when there is no transformer.
Now you've gone further down the rabbit hole, declaring that you can't
analyze simple electrical circuits unless that circuit exists in the
real world.

Here are the simple questions again:

Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.


Problem number 4:

Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO
voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the
other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you
like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is
what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage
sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying,
you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how
you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model..

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:22:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:40:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

I went through that with Fretwell already. Look, I was accused of doing
a "parlor trick" with a scope. What did I do? I connected the scope
ground to the SYSTEM neutral.

I have explained several times, attaching a scope to a center tap will
make that scope lie to you.

Scopes don't lie. And it's not some parlor trick point that you connect
the scope to. It's the SYSTEM neutral/reference point. And of course
when you do that, you see TWO 120V voltage sources, one 180 deg out of
phase from the other. It's the essence of why the system was created
that way. I've asked many times now, if you disagree that there are in
fact two 120V voltage sources, coming from the two halves of the secondary,
to draw your simple circuit model that shows it fifferently. I've given
you the two voltage source model. The IEEE Fellow, elec engineering
professor gave the same model. This is very basic, first day of circuits
101 stuff.





I gave you the example of ANY delta.
You corrected me that you can buy a scope with a floating common. OK
put that on L1 and tell me what you see.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/End%...nter%20tap.jpg
and you will see this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/sine...0secondary.jpg

How many phases do you see? I only see one.
Is there any angle shift in that secondary? I don't see any.
A generator would act the same way.
Your "2 supply" thing is just an illusion caused by looking at a
system from the middle.

Show us how you model and analyze that circuit going into the house
without TWO 120V voltage sources, one 180 out of phase with the other
with respect to the neutral or of opposite polarity, same thing.
And you'd have exactly the same thing if you took a two phase 90 deg
generator and rotated one winding to 180. Which of course is why
you bail out and won't answer those simple questions and instead
start talking about transformers.





I understand people have come up with all sorts of things to try to
rationalize what they see with their meter or a scope but it is really
pretty simple if you understand power systems.

Yes, it is. You have two 120V voltage sources going into the house,
one 180 deg out of phase from the other. Look up the definition of
phase.




I still wonder why you persist with your paralleling bull****. Draw
that out and you will see you are simply connecting L1 to L2 and you
don't need to do anything with the white wire at all. You can leave it
disconnect on both circuits and you still get a bolted fault.

Because one can parallel any two conductors that are in phase and of the
same voltage, that's why. Can you parallel the two 120V hots you see
in the house?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 9:58:07 AM UTC-4, wrote:
That is your 240/120 service and it could
come from a transformer, be synthesized from a battery, or just exist on
a piece of paper.

Oh my.

So there is another point of semantic confusion in this discussion.

120/240 can mean 120 Volts and 240 Volts can refer to the two voltages in a usual home system.

0/120/240 can also refer to 0 degrees , 120 degrees , 240 degrees, the three phase angles in the usual 3 phase system.


mark

I don't think there has been any confusion over references to phase or
voltage in this discussion if you read the context in which they are
being used. I will keep it in mind though.

Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.


Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.

On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.

trader, you keep saying that we get 240v by combining 2 120v phases that
are 180 degrees apart.Â* That's utter nonsense!

The 240v is derived from one continuous secondary winding. You'll note
that the neutral tap is not even used for 240v.Â* And since it is single
phase on the transformer primary, it is single phase on the transformer
secondary.


Sure, you can add a tap long the secondary winding and get a reduced
voltage but it is still single phase.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:39:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

When you lie you can always make your point.
I never agreed you were right about any of this.
Two phase simply does not work like this

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:22:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:40:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

I went through that with Fretwell already. Look, I was accused of doing
a "parlor trick" with a scope. What did I do? I connected the scope
ground to the SYSTEM neutral.

I have explained several times, attaching a scope to a center tap will
make that scope lie to you.

Scopes don't lie. And it's not some parlor trick point that you connect
the scope to. It's the SYSTEM neutral/reference point. And of course
when you do that, you see TWO 120V voltage sources, one 180 deg out of
phase from the other. It's the essence of why the system was created
that way. I've asked many times now, if you disagree that there are in
fact two 120V voltage sources, coming from the two halves of the secondary,
to draw your simple circuit model that shows it fifferently. I've given
you the two voltage source model. The IEEE Fellow, elec engineering
professor gave the same model. This is very basic, first day of circuits
101 stuff.



I gave you the example of ANY delta.
You corrected me that you can buy a scope with a floating common. OK
put that on L1 and tell me what you see.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/End%...nter%20tap.jpg
and you will see this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/sine...0secondary.jpg

How many phases do you see? I only see one.
Is there any angle shift in that secondary? I don't see any.
A generator would act the same way.
Your "2 supply" thing is just an illusion caused by looking at a
system from the middle.

Show us how you model and analyze that circuit going into the house
without TWO 120V voltage sources, one 180 out of phase with the other
with respect to the neutral or of opposite polarity, same thing.
And you'd have exactly the same thing if you took a two phase 90 deg
generator and rotated one winding to 180. Which of course is why
you bail out and won't answer those simple questions and instead
start talking about transformers.


Maybe because there is a transformer outside your house and that is
what we are talking about. I also pointed out a generator would be the
same thing.
You simply ignore whatever I write and keep lying about what I said.


I understand people have come up with all sorts of things to try to
rationalize what they see with their meter or a scope but it is really
pretty simple if you understand power systems.

Yes, it is. You have two 120V voltage sources going into the house,
one 180 deg out of phase from the other. Look up the definition of
phase.




I still wonder why you persist with your paralleling bull****. Draw
that out and you will see you are simply connecting L1 to L2 and you
don't need to do anything with the white wire at all. You can leave it
disconnect on both circuits and you still get a bolted fault.

Because one can parallel any two conductors that are in phase and of the
same voltage, that's why. Can you parallel the two 120V hots you see
in the house?

Are you intentionally acting stupid or are you really stupid. When you
say "parallel", you are assuming you have 2 sources when in fact you
are talking about two halves OF ONE ****ING SOURCE.
You are simply trying to connect L1 to L2 of one secondary.
Do I have to draw another picture for you?

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:



Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

Lying sack of ****. I never said any of that was true.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:26:49 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.

trader, you keep saying that we get 240v by combining 2 120v phases that
are 180 degrees apart.Â* That's utter nonsense!

The 240v is derived from one continuous secondary winding. You'll note
that the neutral tap is not even used for 240v.Â* And since it is single
phase on the transformer primary, it is single phase on the transformer
secondary.


Sure, you can add a tap long the secondary winding and get a reduced
voltage but it is still single phase.


If Dominos brings Trader a pizza and he says he ordered two, I suppose
the guy could just cut it in half and say "here are your two pizzas".

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Technically in your pink unicorn world, yes

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

No there is one phase. 180 degrees is a straight line with no angular
displacement, 3d grade math.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Yes, it is. You have two 120V voltage sources going into the house,
one 180 deg out of phase from the other. Look up the definition of
phase.

In the context of electrical distribution phase refers to the angular
displacement between the wave on the conductors and there is no
angular displacement in a straight line, only one end and the other
end.
bisecting a line does not make 2 lines unless one changes direction
(angular displacement)

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:26:54 AM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.

trader, you keep saying that we get 240v by combining 2 120v phases that
are 180 degrees apart.Â* That's utter nonsense!

It's not utter nonsense. Do you deny that the circuit is two 120v
secondaries that are tied together? How do you draw the simple circuit
diagram, using ideal voltage source that represent what you have there?
I draw it with two 120V voltage sources, with one 180 deg out of phase
with the other with respect to the neutral, or of opposite polarity,
same thing. The IEEE Fellow, power engineer, professor, says exactly
the same thing. If you disagree, show us the circuit model that doesn't use
two 120V voltage sources. And where those sources come from, two halves
of the secondary, or two windings from a generator, or electronically
synthesized from a batter, doesn't matter. In all cases they are 120V
voltage sources and the power into the house looks, acts and is the same.




The 240v is derived from one continuous secondary winding. You'll note
that the neutral tap is not even used for 240v.Â* And since it is single
phase on the transformer primary, it is single phase on the transformer
secondary.


Sure, you can add a tap long the secondary winding and get a reduced
voltage but it is still single phase.

You get two voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase or of opposite
polarity with respect to the tap, that's what you get. And the "tap"
is the SYSTEM neutral! It's the reference for your power delivery.
It's not some random, accidental, inconsequential point.

Ready to answer the very simple questions? Fretwell can't, he gets part
way through and then suddenly starts talking about transformers, when
there are no transformers in any of the simple problems.


Problem 1:


Define N phase power?


Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.


Problem number 4:

Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO
voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the
other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you
like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is
what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage
sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying,
you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how
you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model..

Problem number 4:

Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a house.
My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral or of alternate polarity if you like.
You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity.

Your answer?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:51:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:39:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

When you lie you can always make your point.
I never agreed you were right about any of this.
Two phase simply does not work like this

I clearly said *I believe* you said that it would be two phase. But it's
hard to keep track, because you won't answer a simple series of questions,
instead you bail out, claiming you can't answer a simple question about
whether a phase still exists when I change the angle from 90 to some other
choice, because "that system doesn't exist". So much for electrical
engineering, now it's claimed that we can only analyze that which is
actually deployed. That would get expensive fast.

So feel free to give us your definitive answer to the above simple question.
Here it is again, go step by step:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V from each
phase to the neutral. So, you have a generator supplying 120V on
each of two windings on the same shaft 90 deg phase difference,
one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there?


So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
shared neutral, 120V, two phases, 90 deg phase difference, correct?
I could hook a scope up to the neutral and see two phases, 90 deg
apart, correct?

If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there, where one phase just went.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:26:54 AM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.

trader, you keep saying that we get 240v by combining 2 120v phases that
are 180 degrees apart.Â* That's utter nonsense!

It's not utter nonsense. Do you deny that the circuit is two 120v
secondaries that are tied together? How do you draw the simple circuit
diagram, using ideal voltage source that represent what you have there?
I draw it with two 120V voltage sources, with one 180 deg out of phase
with the other with respect to the neutral, or of opposite polarity,
same thing. The IEEE Fellow, power engineer, professor, says exactly
the same thing. If you disagree, show us the circuit model that doesn't use
two 120V voltage sources. And where those sources come from, two halves
of the secondary, or two windings from a generator, or electronically
synthesized from a batter, doesn't matter. In all cases they are 120V
voltage sources and the power into the house looks, acts and is the same.

The nonsense is that they are out of phase with each other. It is one
continuous winding, It is wound in one direction and all of the
current flows in the same direction at any given time. That is one
phase.


The 240v is derived from one continuous secondary winding. You'll note
that the neutral tap is not even used for 240v.Â* And since it is single
phase on the transformer primary, it is single phase on the transformer
secondary.


Sure, you can add a tap long the secondary winding and get a reduced
voltage but it is still single phase.

You get two voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase or of opposite
polarity with respect to the tap, that's what you get. And the "tap"
is the SYSTEM neutral! It's the reference for your power delivery.
It's not some random, accidental, inconsequential point.

Ready to answer the very simple questions? Fretwell can't, he gets part
way through and then suddenly starts talking about transformers, when
there are no transformers in any of the simple problems.


Problem 1:


Define N phase power?


Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.


Problem number 4:

Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO
voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the
other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you
like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is
what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage
sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying,
you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how
you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model.

Problem number 4:

Someone asks why they can't randomly parallel any two receptacles in a house.
My answer is, because you have two 120V voltage sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral or of alternate polarity if you like.
You can only parallel ones that are of the same phase or polarity.

Your answer?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:57:19 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:22:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:40:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

I went through that with Fretwell already. Look, I was accused of doing
a "parlor trick" with a scope. What did I do? I connected the scope
ground to the SYSTEM neutral.

I have explained several times, attaching a scope to a center tap will
make that scope lie to you.

Scopes don't lie. And it's not some parlor trick point that you connect
the scope to. It's the SYSTEM neutral/reference point. And of course
when you do that, you see TWO 120V voltage sources, one 180 deg out of
phase from the other. It's the essence of why the system was created
that way. I've asked many times now, if you disagree that there are in
fact two 120V voltage sources, coming from the two halves of the secondary,
to draw your simple circuit model that shows it fifferently. I've given
you the two voltage source model. The IEEE Fellow, elec engineering
professor gave the same model. This is very basic, first day of circuits
101 stuff.



I gave you the example of ANY delta.
You corrected me that you can buy a scope with a floating common. OK
put that on L1 and tell me what you see.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/End%...nter%20tap.jpg
and you will see this
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/sine...0secondary.jpg

How many phases do you see? I only see one.
Is there any angle shift in that secondary? I don't see any.
A generator would act the same way.
Your "2 supply" thing is just an illusion caused by looking at a
system from the middle.

Show us how you model and analyze that circuit going into the house
without TWO 120V voltage sources, one 180 out of phase with the other
with respect to the neutral or of opposite polarity, same thing.
And you'd have exactly the same thing if you took a two phase 90 deg
generator and rotated one winding to 180. Which of course is why
you bail out and won't answer those simple questions and instead
start talking about transformers.


Maybe because there is a transformer outside your house and that is
what we are talking about.

Again back to the transformer fetish. I could tell a first week EE
student, you have two 120V sinusoidal ideal voltage sources tied together,
sharing one common neutral return. One is 180 deg out of phase with the
other with respect to the neutral, or of opposite polarity, same
thing. That's all the student needs to know to define that service.
It does not matter if
they came from a center tapped transformer, a generator, were electronically
synthesized from a battery. They could have come from that two phase
generator example I keep trying to get you to go through, where I simply
morph a two phase 90 system into exactly the same thing as 320/120.
Of course you bail out, because the contradiction is exposed. It's
all EXACTLY the same thing. That's the beauty of engineering, when you
understand the basics, it all flows neatly from that, it's all explainable.





I also pointed out a generator would be the
same thing.
You simply ignore whatever I write and keep lying about what I said.


I'm not lying. Why don't you answer those simple questions in series
without bailing out about transformers? Would that be your answer on
a first week circuits quiz? I can't answer it, it doesn't exist?
Or I need a transformer, there is none in the problem presented so
I can't answer it?





I understand people have come up with all sorts of things to try to
rationalize what they see with their meter or a scope but it is really
pretty simple if you understand power systems.

Yes, it is. You have two 120V voltage sources going into the house,
one 180 deg out of phase from the other. Look up the definition of
phase.




I still wonder why you persist with your paralleling bull****. Draw
that out and you will see you are simply connecting L1 to L2 and you
don't need to do anything with the white wire at all. You can leave it
disconnect on both circuits and you still get a bolted fault.

Because one can parallel any two conductors that are in phase and of the
same voltage, that's why. Can you parallel the two 120V hots you see
in the house?

Are you intentionally acting stupid or are you really stupid. When you
say "parallel", you are assuming you have 2 sources when in fact you
are talking about two halves OF ONE ****ING SOURCE.

When you center tap it, it performs like TWO voltage sources that share
one common return. THAT is exactly what it is. That is how the IEEE Fellow
drew the circuit. Is he stupid too? And if I'm the one who's stupid,
why is it that you can't show us your circuit where there are not TWO
voltage sources and you can supply 240/120V? It can't be done, because
that's precisely the whole purpose of the circuit.


You are simply trying to connect L1 to L2 of one secondary.
Do I have to draw another picture for you?

Sure it's also that, but it also looks like, behaves like, has to
be ANALYZED as and is TWO 120V voltage sources that share a neutral.
TWO voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with respect to the
neutral or of opposite polarity, same thing. If you feel otherwise,
explain your model circuit where it's not two voltage sources like that.

On 08/07/2018 01:38 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:26:54 AM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.
trader, you keep saying that we get 240v by combining 2 120v phases that
are 180 degrees apart.Â* That's utter nonsense!
It's not utter nonsense. Do you deny that the circuit is two 120v
secondaries that are tied together?
The secondary winding is one continuous conductor with a tap fastened in
the middle.Â* But the tap is unused to provide 240 volts.Â* You could
remove the tap and sit on it and you would still have 240 volts single
phase.Â* Get it?

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:59:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:



Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

Lying sack of ****. I never said any of that was true.


Already addressed that in another post just now. I clearly said "I believe".
Rather odd you're objecting to that suddenly, I've been posting the
same thing for two days.
It's hard to keep track of your positions, because you won't go through
those simple examples, one question after the other. Instead you new
position now is that theoretical questions about phase angles or configurations
other than what exists can't be answered. That's quite a remarkable
position.

Here is the simple problem again, perhaps you'd like to answer it here,
all the questions and set the record straight? I;ll give you both
problems again, the first where I morph the old 90 deg two phase into
240/120 service, the second where I morph 3 phase. Where oh where did
those phases go?


According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over four wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?


So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there and where one disappeared to.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )



Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:51:18 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:39:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

When you lie you can always make your point.
I never agreed you were right about any of this.
Two phase simply does not work like this

I clearly said *I believe* you said that it would be two phase. But it's
hard to keep track, because you won't answer a simple series of questions,
instead you bail out, claiming you can't answer a simple question about
whether a phase still exists when I change the angle from 90 to some other
choice, because "that system doesn't exist". So much for electrical
engineering, now it's claimed that we can only analyze that which is
actually deployed. That would get expensive fast.

I have answered you silly quiz TWICE
At least as much as you can answer nonsense questions.
I prefer to live in reality and not some theoretical world where only
pink unicorns and blue oxen live.


So feel free to give us your definitive answer to the above simple question.
Here it is again, go step by step:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V from each
phase to the neutral. So, you have a generator supplying 120V on
each of two windings on the same shaft 90 deg phase difference,
one shared neutral. Would there still be two phases there?

I have to stop you there. You are just full of ****. Two phase
requires FOUR ungrounded conductors.
They either look like an X or T but they still act like an X

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
shared neutral, 120V, two phases, 90 deg phase difference, correct?
I could hook a scope up to the neutral and see two phases, 90 deg
apart, correct?

If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there, where one phase just went.


S L O W L Y
When you rotate to 180 you have ONE PHASE, no matter how many times
you tap the output source.
A 180 degree phase angle is no angle at all it is a straight line.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )

Yes exactly the same. It is single phase.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 12:29:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Technically in your pink unicorn world, yes

OK, so we agree, if you take a 3 phase power source and rotate one winding
so that instead of 120 degrees, it's at 179, there are still 3 phases.



Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

No there is one phase. 180 degrees is a straight line with no angular
displacement, 3d grade math.

Wow, that's a stunning answer. Are you sure that's your answer? Your
final answer? By rotating that one winding from 179 to 180 degrees
suddenly this whole generator went to single phase? And I'm the one
accused of parlor tricks?

In my world, the real word, you still have 3 phases, 0, 180, 240.
Before the change you had 0, 179, 240. You'd of course see exactly
that on a scope. Anything else would be magic indeed.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:31:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Already addressed that in another post just now. I clearly said "I believe".
Rather odd you're objecting to that suddenly, I've been posting the
same thing for two days.

.... and I have been telling you for days, what you say about 2 phase
is simply wrong but you keep posting it.
Telling a lie over and over does not make it true.
You really are starting to sound more like your buddy trump every day.

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 01:38 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:26:54 AM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:48:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 12:29:45 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Technically in your pink unicorn world, yes

OK, so we agree, if you take a 3 phase power source and rotate one winding
so that instead of 120 degrees, it's at 179, there are still 3 phases.



Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

No there is one phase. 180 degrees is a straight line with no angular
displacement, 3d grade math.

Wow, that's a stunning answer. Are you sure that's your answer? Your
final answer? By rotating that one winding from 179 to 180 degrees
suddenly this whole generator went to single phase? And I'm the one
accused of parlor tricks?

In my world, the real word, you still have 3 phases, 0, 180, 240.
Before the change you had 0, 179, 240. You'd of course see exactly
that on a scope. Anything else would be magic indeed.
..
0-180 is the same phase. It is a straight line with no phase shift.
Simply the idea that looking at both ends from the middle does not
make it two.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 12:06:53 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 01:38 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 11:26:54 AM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 08/07/2018 10:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Here are the two simple problems that no one on the other side can address
and it isn't because there is any confusion about voltage vs phase.
It's because they are trapped in a obvious unexplainable contradiction.
trader, you keep saying that we get 240v by combining 2 120v phases that
are 180 degrees apart.Â* That's utter nonsense!
It's not utter nonsense. Do you deny that the circuit is two 120v
secondaries that are tied together?
The secondary winding is one continuous conductor with a tap fastened in
the middle.Â* But the tap is unused to provide 240 volts.Â* You could
remove the tap and sit on it and you would still have 240 volts single
phase.Â* Get it?

And the tap in the middle creates two 120V voltage sources that are 180
deg out of phase with each other with respect to the neutral. That's
the whole point of the tap. If you feel otherwise, show us your circuit
model where you don't use TWO 120V voltage sources. I've given you that
request several times now. And it doesn't matter
if those voltage sources are from a transformer, a generator, or
synthesized electronically from a battery. All I need to tell an electrical
engineer is I'm giving you two ideal voltage sources, 60 hz, 180 deg
out of phase, with a shared common return. That's all you need to
know to analyze and use what's there. It doesn't matter how or what it
was generated from. Do you disagree with that?

That is simply not true, no matter how many times you repeat it. This
is one winding, continuously wound in the same direction, with current
flowing in the same direction, transformer or generator and tapping
the middle does not change that.
I don't care how many professors need to complicate this simple
concept to get it through the heads of dumber students.

On 08/07/2018 09:55 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[wires]

Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference.

Wouldn't that be 4 wires (2 per phase)?

Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

[snip]

On 08/07/2018 11:29 AM, wrote:

[snip]

No there is one phase. 180 degrees is a straight line with no angular
displacement, 3d grade math.

Apparently, you would consider turning around and looking in the
opposite direction to be looking in the same direction. North = South.
It's a good thing you're not flying the plane I'm taking from DFW
(Dallas Texas) to Montana. I don't want to go to Cuba, which you
consider to be in the same direction.

On 08/07/2018 11:37 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Yes, it is. You have two 120V voltage sources going into the house,
one 180 deg out of phase from the other. Look up the definition of
phase.

In the context of electrical distribution phase refers to the angular
displacement between the wave on the conductors and there is no
angular displacement in a straight line, only one end and the other
end.
bisecting a line does not make 2 lines unless one changes direction
(angular displacement)

If you have 3 conductors (one of which is neutral), how would you
determine if the others had the same phase or different phases? No
cheating please.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of
the few." -- Marie Henri Beyle (Stendhal)

On 08/07/2018 01:27 PM, devnull wrote:

[snip]

The secondary winding is one continuous conductor with a tap fastened in
the middle.Â* But the tap is unused to provide 240 volts.Â* You could
remove the tap and sit on it and you would still have 240 volts single
phase.Â* Get it?

With a disconnected (or nonexistent) center tap, you'd have 240V single
phase. The difference from 2 different phases is that you changed the
point of reference.

The same way, if you were in between the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth
(Texas), the cities are in 2 different directions. If you're in Atlanta
Georgia they're in the same direction.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of
the few." -- Marie Henri Beyle (Stendhal)

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 18:13:50 -0500, notX
wrote:

On 08/07/2018 11:29 AM, wrote:

[snip]

No there is one phase. 180 degrees is a straight line with no angular
displacement, 3d grade math.

Apparently, you would consider turning around and looking in the
opposite direction to be looking in the same direction. North = South.
It's a good thing you're not flying the plane I'm taking from DFW
(Dallas Texas) to Montana. I don't want to go to Cuba, which you
consider to be in the same direction.

Turning around and looking in the other direction doesn't mean the
plane is suddenly going the other way tho, just because you seem to be
going backward.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 18:16:08 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 08/07/2018 11:37 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Yes, it is. You have two 120V voltage sources going into the house,
one 180 deg out of phase from the other. Look up the definition of
phase.

In the context of electrical distribution phase refers to the angular
displacement between the wave on the conductors and there is no
angular displacement in a straight line, only one end and the other
end.
bisecting a line does not make 2 lines unless one changes direction
(angular displacement)

If you have 3 conductors (one of which is neutral), how would you
determine if the others had the same phase or different phases? No
cheating please.

There are 2 possibilities right away.
That is where you actually need to understand the distribution systems
used in the US.
I would need to determine what kind of system I was looking at. Simply
poking around with a meter or even a scope, is not going to give you
that answer unless you understand that. Single phase and a corner
grounded delta will look pretty much exactly alike, just having
strange voltages (typically 480/240 for the delta, 120/240 for our old
friend the center tapped single phase). Both have 2 ungrounded
conductors and one white.
They will appear the same, single phase.
A center tapped delta will look a lot like 2 phase if you have a scope
with a grounded common (the only ones we had back on the olden days),
again you need to spot the "wild" 208v leg to figure that out because
it will look like it is 90 degrees out. The other two look just like
single phase. You will also have 4 conductors (one white) so that does
not apply to your question
The idea that you will simply see a 120 degree phase shift and say
that is 3 phase only works on a wye but that will be 4 conductors too
(one white).
The red herring Trader can't get over, 2 phase, will have 4 ungrounded
conductors and may or may not have a 5th grounded conductor (white)
but it is not a neutral, nor is the one on the corner delta above.