On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
....

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:
....
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage,...

I did intend to indicate and give credit that he did recognize he needed
the full 3-phase usage only that it seemed as though had hard time
coping with what he proposed is too rudimentary to help much (or at all)
in resolving his problem...in that even if he knew the answer he
proposed it doesn't get anywhere at the root cause of the symptom.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
...

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:
...
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage,...

I did intend to indicate and give credit that he did recognize he needed
the full 3-phase usage only that it seemed as though had hard time
coping with what he proposed is too rudimentary to help much (or at all)
in resolving his problem...in that even if he knew the answer he
proposed it doesn't get anywhere at the root cause of the symptom.

Agreed. He's gonna have to call the power company, like it or not. At this
point he at least needs their interpretation of the bill. Then he can
either accept it or refute their explanation but at least he would have a
better understanding of what's (allegedly) going on.

--
Bobby G.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:11:56 -0500, bud-- wrote:

On 5/30/2011 10:11 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 30 May 2011 20:34:10 -0500, wrote:

Demand is a common method for utilities to level the peaks for reasons
that have been well covered. Around here the demand shows up as a
penalty charge, not a kWh rate multiplier.

That doesn't make any sense.

For industrial metering
"reactive power" (kVARh) metering is also pretty common - again a
penalty charge.

That makes even less sense.

The penalties are high enough to provide a real
incentive. Some installations with backup power run the backup to shave
peaks.

Are you mixing VARS and demand?

I maybe should have said more.

A demand meter will show a "demand", which is kWh over a short time
period, maybe 15 minutes. The maximum demand for the billing period is
indicated and read, and the demand register is reset. I haven't looked
at a utility rate structure, but basically the kWh demand is multiplied
by a $number to give a penalty which is added to the bill. The higher
the kWh demand the higher the penalty.

The penalty can be quite high and provides an incentive for the customer
to use one of many "peak shaving" techniques.

Similarly the VAR meter (which for mechanical meters is a second meter)
registers the reactive power 'used'. (This flows from the utility and
back to the utility and is not actually used.) The kVARh in the billing
period is multiplied by a $number to give a VAR penalty which is also
added to the bill.

I understand all that, however...

This penalty is high enough to promote using power factor correction
caps, or other techniques, to improve the power factor.

....a fixed penalty vs. a rate penalty doesn't make sense, is what I meant.

The utility can, and does, correct the power factor. They can also
improve the power factor caused by harmonics (I don't know if utilities
do). They can't fix high demand.

Rolling blackouts. ;-)

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 6/1/2011 5:47 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
...

... he started, at least,
asking three specific questions:

1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the
current flowing on the neutral line?

2) He was looking how to calculate the "worst case" (all loads operating
simultaneously I assume)

3) He wanted to know if there was an error in how he intended to
calculate a
maximum load.

That's at least why I recommended the Kil-O-Watt. He described a large
number of easily tested, non-hardwired loads on his premises.
...
From the numbers on usage he posted before, it appears to be a
fairly
consistent usage w/ a couple of months extreme outliers. Both of those
are early in different years; my hypothesis is that the other months
are, for the most part, estimated rather than actually read and the one
annual blip is the catchup because they've not updated the average
usage
to reflect actual since it was set up (probably before OP bought the
building).

Because I've had my own tangles with bad meters and something the phone
company called a "left on" connection (that actually turned into a
national
security matter), I pay attention to news reports of billing errors.
This
could just as easily be a screw-up with his electric company's billing
systems. ...

Indeed it could...


While you may be perfectly correct in why the readings show the way they
do,
there are a lot of other explanations. But it terms of learning, I
think we
(and perhaps he) have learned some critical things. You can't meter the
neutral of a three-phase feeder and expect to get information about
total
usage, only the level of imbalance of the downstream circuits. We've
learned that it's unusual not to be able to see your meter whenever you
choose to, but apparently not universal. That's something for the OP to
work out between himself, the power company and his landlord. As nearly
everyone has said, to solve the puzzle more information is needed.

But I don't think it could ever hurt him to spend $25 on a Kil-O-Watt
meter.
He indicated from the start he wanted to measure total wattage, and the
KOW
will do that far better for the gear he has than any tong meter I know
of.
...

I never said (and hopefully didn't imply by poor wording) my idea was
the only possible explanation; simply a theory (apparently refuted,
eventually).

I realize that and shouldn't have made it sound otherwise. The thread took
many excursions.

OP is the (new, but not terribly so iirc 6yr) owner of the building so
I'd presume he has some pull w/ the landlord...

Yes, I began to realize how much information I had missed. It's been a
long, long time since my last reading comprehension test. I am not sure I
would match my old scores, but then again, the stakes here couldn't be
lower, so that might affect my focus. (-:

It would seem
anything about the lock on the cabinet/meter that he would be allowed to
do by whatever limitations placed by the utility/city could have been
resolved in that time. If the limitation is only inertia on his part,
that's another kettle...there's insufficient information to know _why_
it is currently as it is.

I suspect it was never a problem until it became one. Probably best to be
resolved no matter what. I'd feel uncomfortable not being able to read my
meter whenever I chose. Got an incredibly cheap CCTV cam with a long lens
to be able to read it during (most) of the day. There are times when the
glare is just too much and the IR lights from the camera simply bounce off
the glass case. I once tried one of those "mount on the meter" devices that
count the dark spot rotation and send pulses to an indoor reader/PC
interface. It worked sort of well but was "flagged" by the meter reader as
(paraphrasing) "unregistered customer device attached to meter" with a card
on the door saying it had to be removed forthwith. Apparently very strong
neodymium magnets can be used to tamper with the meters, so I read once on
the web, but I also believe the have developed anti-tampering devices to
detect the proximity of a super magnet. Probably just a tiny magnetic
sphere under a foil seal that would rip through when attracted by a strong
field. But I digress, as I sit playing with a neodymium magnet so strong
the had to ship in a box within two other boxes to avoid it "eating" its way
out of the box during transit. In addition to being a voltmeter hoarder, I
am a magnet freak.

It's a commercial building w/ 3-phase service and the loads he mentioned
were a few computers, basically.

I thought he said 15 computers. I'll have to remember to look. Yes, 15.
Touché! When I switched the 10 active PC's in the house from towers to
laptops that had aggressive power management (that actually worked) I saved
at least $300 a year. Those towers ran from 130 to 250 watts each 24x7
without the CRT monitors. The laptops? From 8 to 17 watts each with
monitors active. That's an even bigger savings than switching to CFL bulbs.

I think there's serious money to be recouped in the what might seem to be
the fringe areas but IMHO is really the battleground where serious savings
can be extracted over the long run. Most businesses I've seen are horrible
under-insulated with enormous heat losses. A handheld IR thermometer or a
rented IR thermal vision camera might help tighten those up. As a building
owner, he does get long-term payback for those sorts of improvement unlike
an ordinary tenant.

The Kil-O-Watt meter can monitor them
but it'll do nothing for what is most likely by far the majority of the
load which will be the 3-phase lighting, possibly water heater and other
service loads. It'll be measuring the noise around the edges.

I thought of it as more of an adjunct to the tong meter he already has that
can measure those loads pretty easily at the panel - normally, with normal
circuit panels that expose a single wire to a breaker that a tong meter can
encircle, that is. Who knows what's in his Caligari cabinet.

The clip-on readings combined with the KOW readings should equal his metered
load if you plug in a hidden value of how long each piece of equipment was
actually ON drawing power. But IIRC and IOD, he wanted to know the "full
on" consumption of his premises - how much the place could possible draw in
a day. The KOW and the tong meter could conceivably deliver that number
independently of a possibly defective meter.

The characteristics of the peculiarities aren't likely to be explained
by a loading issue anyway imo. The doubling of the readings in months
that are roughly a year apart is just not credible as an ordinary event
of somebody left the lights on over a weekend. It's either an
accounting issue, an error in the reading or the like that is
artificially being induced somewhat like your above suggestion (or mine
of a different yet similar mechanism) or there's a _major_ intermittent
load or fault somewhere on the system.

A couple of space heaters left on all day and night can suck up enormous
amount of power. I know employees and I've known of more than one (there
were actually quite a few, sadly) that lived for a while at work without
their bosses knowing about it. Divorce, kicked out, evicted, car repo'ed.
One guy had installed himself at a not-yet-abandoned Nike site when his wife
kicked him out. I know some small businessmen that live in their offices
when it's really, really busy and even when it's not.

Either of those isn't going to be found by a minimal one-time
guesstimate of the maximum possible monthly usage even if he measures an
instantaneous 3-phase usage correctly and it certainly won't be found by
poking around on one computer supply at a time.

$0.02, imo, ymmv, etc., etc., etc., ...

It would keep him busy. Deny *that's* a good thing. (-: Seriously,
though, there isn't any small business I couldn't save $100 a year. I'd do
it by analyzing what standby loads consume enough juice to warrant
powerstripping and/or timer or manual control. Lots of loads that don't
really need to draw current 24x7 are left on, drawing a considerable amount
of juice in the aggregate.

Without knowing one iota about how the OP uses his PC's, I can only suggest
that to some users, there are considerable power savings to be had with
aggressive power management. He indicated about a 12-15 amp standby load
when he tonged all three phases with everything except the PC's and/or the
UPS's off. That does not add up correctly at all to the usage on his bills.
Thoroughness would impress the Public Service Commission if he ever needs to
get that far to get a refund or even a full explanation.

--
Bobby G.

On 6/8/2011 7:50 PM, Home Guy wrote:
....

Before I answer that question, I want to make it clear that this billing
error really didn't have anything to do with what sort of meter I have
or what numbers it reports. This was a human transcription problem at
some level somewhere in the system.
....

Very similar problem to what I and several others propositioned--that it
wasn't a "real" usage problem but either a human or computer-generated
problem...

--

dpb wrote:

Very similar problem to what I and several others propositioned--
that it wasn't a "real" usage problem but either a human or computer-
generated problem...

The meter was read correctly - to the extent that the reader entered the
correct numbers into a large handheld device of some sort.

You wouldn't think that there would be any other human hands touching
the data after that point, at any other point in the chain that leads to
the preparation of my monthly bill. Because I can't imagine the upwards
of 50 to 100 thousand customers having their bills similarly "touched"
by human hands, on a monthly basis.

As for this being a computer-generated problem, you would think that any
code that transforms "47" into "87" would have been caught long ago.

In article , Home Guy wrote:

This 80 factor also explains something else - why I was seeing several
months come in with exactly the same kWh usage, down to the exact
number. The meter only shows whole integer numbers, so the effective
resolution is 80 kWh, which in my case represents 5% of typical monthly
usage.

I'm confused. Your previously posted usage/billing numbers weren't
divisible by 80. They were down to the 1/100 kwh, IIRC.

Smitty Two wrote:

The meter only shows whole integer numbers, so the effective
resolution is 80 kWh, which in my case represents 5% of typical
monthly usage.

I'm confused. Your previously posted usage/billing numbers weren't
divisible by 80. They were down to the 1/100 kwh, IIRC.

The numbers I showed was after the utility adds a "loss factor" to the
meter's reading. Something like 4 or 5 percent.

In article , Home Guy wrote:

dpb wrote:

Very similar problem to what I and several others propositioned--
that it wasn't a "real" usage problem but either a human or computer-
generated problem...

The meter was read correctly - to the extent that the reader entered the
correct numbers into a large handheld device of some sort.

You wouldn't think that there would be any other human hands touching
the data after that point, at any other point in the chain that leads to
the preparation of my monthly bill. Because I can't imagine the upwards
of 50 to 100 thousand customers having their bills similarly "touched"
by human hands, on a monthly basis.

As for this being a computer-generated problem, you would think that any
code that transforms "47" into "87" would have been caught long ago.

Be that as it may, how do you account for the first unusually high
reading, a bit more than a year ago IIRC? Seems like any erroneous
reading or transcription thereof would get spotted / corrected /
credited the next month.

Smitty Two wrote:

As for this being a computer-generated problem, you would think
that any code that transforms "47" into "87" would have been
caught long ago.

Be that as it may, how do you account for the first unusually high
reading, a bit more than a year ago IIRC? Seems like any erroneous
reading or transcription thereof would get spotted / corrected /
credited the next month.

Yes, I do recall another similar high reading a year ago that I'm going
to look into in the next few days.

I expect that it would have been corrected for the next billing cycle,
as this one would have.

In article , Home Guy wrote:

Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote:

If your service is more than 200 amps, then the meter is measuring
the current using a transformer or coil and the number displayed
by the meter needs to be multiplied by a factor (I think it's
labelled as "PAF") to convert to kWh. In my case, the factor is
80. So when you look at the above numbers and multiply them by 80,
you get the kWh that I'm being billed for.

so the question becomes: given your previous description of electricity
usage, why is your service more than 200 Amps?

Before I answer that question, I want to make it clear that this billing
error really didn't have anything to do with what sort of meter I have
or what numbers it reports. This was a human transcription problem at
some level somewhere in the system.

Now, to answer your question - I am not the original owner of the
building.

The building was obviously spec'd for a different style of usage. More
people, different equipment. During the design phase, the projected
electricity usage was calculated, a fudge factor was applied (which was
either appropriate or way over-estimated) and the corresponding service
was installed.

But the fact remains that you are in an inappropriate service tier and should do
something about that

Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote:

so the question becomes: given your previous description of
electricity usage, why is your service more than 200 Amps?

I am not the original owner of the building.

The building was obviously spec'd for a different style of usage.
and the corresponding service was installed.

But the fact remains that you are in an inappropriate service
tier

You should define what you mean by "innappropriate service tier".

When it comes to the rate I pay for power, my electricity provider does
not distinguish me (with a 3-phase, 400 amp service) from any other
small commercial operation under 50 kw that might have a 1 or 2 phase,
100 or 200 amp service.

and should do something about that

If you mean that I should change my service from 3 phase 400 amp to 2
phase 200 amp, and by doing so change my switch gear, fusing,
distribution bus and re-wire my panels, do you honestly believe such a
change would result in anything different in the short or long term
other than my wallet being several thousand dollars lighter?

Home Guy wrote:

dpb wrote:


Very similar problem to what I and several others propositioned--
that it wasn't a "real" usage problem but either a human or computer-
generated problem...


The meter was read correctly - to the extent that the reader entered the
correct numbers into a large handheld device of some sort.

You wouldn't think that there would be any other human hands touching
the data after that point, at any other point in the chain that leads to
the preparation of my monthly bill. Because I can't imagine the upwards
of 50 to 100 thousand customers having their bills similarly "touched"
by human hands, on a monthly basis.

As for this being a computer-generated problem, you would think that any
code that transforms "47" into "87" would have been caught long ago.



Home Guy wrote:

dpb wrote:


Very similar problem to what I and several others propositioned--
that it wasn't a "real" usage problem but either a human or computer-
generated problem...


The meter was read correctly - to the extent that the reader entered the
correct numbers into a large handheld device of some sort.

You wouldn't think that there would be any other human hands touching
the data after that point, at any other point in the chain that leads to
the preparation of my monthly bill. Because I can't imagine the upwards
of 50 to 100 thousand customers having their bills similarly "touched"
by human hands, on a monthly basis.

As for this being a computer-generated problem, you would think that any
code that transforms "47" into "87" would have been caught long ago.


Well, I wouldn't presume anything -- if it were fully automated there'd
be no need for the manual reader to come look to begin with.

Your previous posting said (at least that's that I thought it said) you
had confirmed it to have been a transcription error--you're nowing
saying that wasn't found to be so but is another supposition you're
making not what the utility rep confirmed?

Other possibility is that whatever the transfer mechanism is from the
reader's collection to the central billing computer is error-prone. Do
you know how/what technology they're using?

What if the reader;s data entry device prints out a record and that is
sent thru an OCR device for entry to the accounting software? I can
imagine that could create such a repetitive mistake. Or it's a wireless
connection and is flaky. If the utility is still stuck in an early
technology introduction mechanism I can imagine all sorts of possible
error-inducing things _could_ be doing. (In another life, I remember
having nuclear generating power plant data returned to central office by
punch paper tape--more effort was spent in making software to correct
the errors inherent in the process than the time required to do the
actual engineering calculations. Eventually, stuff was upgraded but
again it was a first-generation system and reasonable technology for the
first deployment but had been passed by during the time from initial
specification to deployment by other developments. As noted elsewhere,
am involved heavily in our local rural electric co-op; we're going thru
a similar issue of moving from manual readers to automated and have had
several trial pieces of gear during the last ten years since began that
have proven unequal to the task in the specific application. If we had
instead taken one of these at face value from the vendor and made a
deployment we could easily have had a case of generating many billing
errors such as the one you've described because they had bad
communications, primarily altho some were related to loss of onboard
memory or other glitches that caused bad readings. In your case, since
apparently the meter is mechanical and the reading manual, the problem
is a little different probably in inception but conceptually the same.

Would be interesting to find out what final resolution turns out to
be...as another poster noted and I had mentioned before, the earlier
real outlier value seems as though should have similar explanation and
perhaps a billing credit if hasn't somehow been otherwise corrected.

Whatever the actual mechanics, it turns out that it isn't an actual
locad problem which was the point I had been trying to make all along
that the issue really couldn't be a "real" physical usage problem with
the kind of characteristics of the posted data.

--

dpb double-quoted the following for some reason:

The meter was read correctly - to the extent that the reader
entered the correct numbers into a large handheld device of
some sort.

You wouldn't think that there would be any other human hands
touching the data after that point, at any other point in the
chain that leads to the preparation of my monthly bill.

Your previous posting said (at least that's that I thought it said)
you had confirmed it to have been a transcription error

I talked to the guy that runs the metering department. I don't know
exactly what his title is, something like Senior meter technician or
some sort.

He looked at my account on his computer and called up the last few meter
readings. These are the numbers displayed on the meter, which are NOT
the actual kWh. To get the kWh, you take those numbers and multiply by
80.

The number that he had for my May reading was 47. But on the invoice
that I get in the mail, the number showing was 87.

This guy running the meter department does have access to what I would
have been seeing on my bill. I think he said it was a different
computer system that generates the bill I get in the mail. He claimed
that just by what he can see, he can't tell me if there is a
transcription or billing error because he doesn't have access to my
bill. He told me what my bill *should* say, and that if it doesn't say
that, then there's a problem somewhere.

I then talked to someone in the mail customer-support dept, and told
them that my bill said (87) and your main guy in the meter dept (I
mentioned him by name) said that the bill should say (47). After a few
minutes on hold, I was told that I'd either get a call back (I guess
telling me that their 87 was right) or I wouldn't get a call-back but
that I'd receive a new invoice in the mail.

I haven't yet got a call back, so I assume I'll be getting a new invoice
next week.

They basically don't want to admit to any error, at least not over the
phone.

Utility operators can be cagey buggers in this regard.

Other possibility is that whatever the transfer mechanism is from
the reader's collection to the central billing computer is error-
prone. Do you know how/what technology they're using?

I'd have to take a really close look at the hand-held device the meter
reader is using the next time he comed to do a read. I have a
snow-balls chance in hell to pose your question to the customer service
dept and actually get an answer.

Would be interesting to find out what final resolution turns out
to be...as another poster noted and I had mentioned before, the
earlier real outlier value seems as though should have similar
explanation and perhaps a billing credit if hasn't somehow been
otherwise corrected.

I'm going to look into that earlier reading and see how those numbers
jive with the expected numbers. I'll probably also call the senior
meter tech and see if he has the read values for that month as well.

1) when coming up with a total current measurement, do I include the
current flowing on the neutral line? Should I indeed measure any
current on that line at all - or should the current on the neutral be
equal to the sum of the currents on the other 3 lines?


The current in the neutral will NEVER be more than the highest current on one of the 3 lines. It will ALWAYS be less than the highest current on one of the three lines unless there is only current on one line. If the current in all 3 lines are balanced the current in the neutral should be ZERO. This would occur if all of the loads were three phase motors.

If this were a 2 phase panel, such as almost all residential panels are, it would have 2 hot lines and one neutral. In this case if the loads are balanced the current in the neutral will be zero. With unbalanced loads the current in the neutral is the difference between the 2 hot lines. Because the current in one is 180 degrees out of phase with the other the current from one cancels out the current from the other. Best practice is to try to keep the loads balanced as much as possible.

With a 3-phase/4-wire panel the current in each line is 120 degrees out of phase with each other so the math for calculating the current in the neutral when the loads are unbalanced becomes more complex.

The above is based on simple resistive and inductive loads back 50 years ago when I worked with this stuff every day. Modern day loads with lots of electronics and switching power supplies`make things even more complex.

On 07/23/2018 06:04 AM, wrote:

[snip]

The current in the neutral will NEVER be more than the highest current on one of the 3 lines. It will ALWAYS be less than the highest current on one of the three lines unless there is only current on one line. If the current in all 3 lines are balanced the current in the neutral should be ZERO. This would occur if all of the loads were three phase motors.

Neutral current is actually the sum of the lines, but considering phase.

(for 3 phase):

neutral_current = line1_current + (line2_current at 120_degrees) +
(line3_current at 240_degrees).

for example (10A on each phase):

10A + (10A at 120deg) + (10A at 240deg) = 0

On 7/23/2018 7:04 AM, wrote:
If this were a 2 phase panel, such as almost all residential panels are, it would have 2 hot lines and one neutral. In this case if the loads are balanced the current in the neutral will be zero. With unbalanced loads the current in the neutral is the difference between the 2 hot lines. Because the current in one is 180 degrees out of phase with the other the current from one cancels out the current from the other. Best practice is to try to keep the loads balanced as much as possible.

I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:02:39 PM UTC-4, Walt's Electric wrote:
On 7/23/2018 7:04 AM, wrote:
If this were a 2 phase panel, such as almost all residential panels are, it would have 2 hot lines and one neutral. In this case if the loads are balanced the current in the neutral will be zero. With unbalanced loads the current in the neutral is the difference between the 2 hot lines. Because the current in one is 180 degrees out of phase with the other the current from one cancels out the current from the other. Best practice is to try to keep the loads balanced as much as possible.

I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


Oh no, here we go again.

In article ,
says...

I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


Oh no, here we go again.




Yes, another ****ing contest about split phases and 2 phases.

I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


OK, It has been 45 years since I have worked as an electrician. Perhaps the proper term should be dual phase or split phase. Does that work for you? I really didn't expect I'd be waking anyone up by responding to a 7 year old post.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:31:47 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


Oh no, here we go again.




Yes, another ****ing contest about split phases and 2 phases.

Or just single phase with a center tapped secondary. (split phase is a
type of motor winding)

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 8:24:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


OK, It has been 45 years since I have worked as an electrician. Perhaps the proper term should be dual phase or split phase. Does that work for you? I really didn't expect I'd be waking anyone up by responding to a 7 year old post.

We went through this round and round a few years ago. I was somewhere close
to your position. I said something along the lines that there are in fact
two phases present, 180 degrees apart. But that they are derived from one
of the three phases coming down the street and commonly referred to as
split-phase. But when you spit-something, what do you get? Two things.
I wouldn't call it a two phase panel though, that's not the common term
for it. But it is very common to refer to each of the hots as a phase.

I even found a presentation a power industry engineer made at
a conference where he made the case that to correctly analyze a split-phase
system you have to treat it like what it is, a system with two phases.

The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.

The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.


Can you take your 2-of-3 phase and connect directly to a heat
element ? like the home 230 volt oven or clothes dryer ?
John T.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 8:24:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


OK, It has been 45 years since I have worked as an electrician. Perhaps the proper term should be dual phase or split phase. Does that work for you? I really didn't expect I'd be waking anyone up by responding to a 7 year old post.

We went through this round and round a few years ago. I was somewhere close
to your position. I said something along the lines that there are in fact
two phases present, 180 degrees apart. But that they are derived from one
of the three phases coming down the street and commonly referred to as
split-phase. But when you spit-something, what do you get? Two things.
I wouldn't call it a two phase panel though, that's not the common term
for it. But it is very common to refer to each of the hots as a phase.

I even found a presentation a power industry engineer made at
a conference where he made the case that to correctly analyze a split-phase
system you have to treat it like what it is, a system with two phases.

The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.

There is single phase, 2 phase (that I doubt anyone here has ever
seen) and 3 phase. If you only use 2 legs of a 3 phase circuit, it is
single phase.
Where you ground that does not change the number of phases.
In fact 3 phase center tapped delta is just your regular single phase
center tapped transformer connected to a delta primary with another
transformer (or two) providing the 3d phase.
OTOH if you corner grounded that delta you would have 2 (hot)
ungrounded conductors and a neutral with 2 pole breakers but it is
clearly still 3 phase.
Two phase is a totally different breed of cat with 2 phases (4 wires)
90 degrees out of phase. This will usually be 2 transformers center
tapped with the center taps grounded (5 wire).
Split phase is a type of motor winding, perhaps the most common for AC
compressors and other applications that use a start capacitor and no
run capacitor. The "phase" is "split" by a start winding 90 degrees
out of phase with the run winding.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:01:57 -0400, wrote:



The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.


Can you take your 2-of-3 phase and connect directly to a heat
element ? like the home 230 volt oven or clothes dryer ?
John T.


Sure. If this is 3p Wye you will only have 208v to work with so the
watts will be less. If it is 3p delta it will still be 240v.

On 7/23/2018 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

snipped ****ing contest...

I'd be interested in learning how to estimate electricity
billing using a clamp-on amp meter.

Exactly where do you clamp it?

Clamp meters measure "something" and calculate displayed
current based on varying assumptions which may not be
specified and may be only
loosely related to what the utility bills for.

My house doesn't have exposed single conductors in
a space big enough to get a clamp meter.

FWIW, I use a Blue Line unit that reads the blinking
LED on the power meter.
That should be EXACTLY what they're billing for.

If you only need average readings, just read the
numbers off the utility meter.

You can also do some fun things with a Palm III that
reads the blinking light and graphs it over time.

Would be interesting to learn how to do it with a
garden-variety clamp meter with unknown transfer
function for loads with non-unity power factor and two load
branches with different loads.

In article , says...

Would be interesting to learn how to do it with a
garden-variety clamp meter with unknown transfer
function for loads with non-unity power factor and two load
branches with different loads.




You can not do that with simple meters.

I have one meter that reads volts, amps, watts. With resitive loads
like light bulbs and heater elements without blowers the volts times
amps give the same value as the watt scale. If I hook up something with
very much inductance such as a motor or even a heater with a blower, the
volts times amps are way off from the watt meter.

On 7/23/2018 8:20 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

Would be interesting to learn how to do it with a
garden-variety clamp meter with unknown transfer
function for loads with non-unity power factor and two load
branches with different loads.




You can not do that with simple meters.

I have one meter that reads volts, amps, watts. With resitive loads
like light bulbs and heater elements without blowers the volts times
amps give the same value as the watt scale. If I hook up something with
very much inductance such as a motor or even a heater with a blower, the
volts times amps are way off from the watt meter.


My point exactly...

In writes:

The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.

Can you take your 2-of-3 phase and connect directly to a heat
element ? like the home 230 volt oven or clothes dryer ?

Eyup. And it'll almost even work.

I've done this many a time.

First, though, to use the "official" voltages:

The standard US voltage is 120VAC from one "hot leg" to neutral.

In the common situation where there are two hot legs that
are 180 degrees apart, each one to neutral will be that 120VAC.

However, if you go "hot to hot", you'll get 240VAC.

But.. in many cases, like the one you asked about, where
a customer gets "2 out of 3", if you go "hot to hot"
you'll get the equivalent of 208V.

This is common in NYC (see below)

(There's a square root of 3 involved there).

And yes, you _can_ run your 240V stove or electric
dryer on it. BUT the performance will be
significantly lower.

At first glance you'd think that the actual wattage
(and, in these cases, heat) would be 208/240
or about 0.86 (86 percent) of desired performance,
meaning 14 percent longer for the oven to heat
up, etc., but...

.... but the reality is that it's 0.86 times 0.86,
or about 0.75 (75 percent).
`
So yeah, a noticable hit. Oh, and especially so
if you're using "240V" incandescent lighting which
will not only be dimmer but also different colors... [1]

Now where do we see this? In NYC, where I've got
way too much experience, apartment and modest sized
office buildings will have three phase coming in.

For the typical line of apartments, the first one
will get legs "A", "B" and neutral (plus safety ground).

The next apartment will get legs "B" and "C".

The third will get "A" and "C".

Rinse, lather, repeat.

So each apartment will have outlets with 120VAC
and... will have some that are effectively 208VAC

All three phases will run to the elevator motor room
and other heavy loads.

Yes, there are ways to tap a transformer so that
"hot" to "hot" in these will get you 240VAC. But
my head hurts when thinking of them.

[1] ignoring the issues of how the resistance will
change with different temperatures...

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 19:43:24 -0700, mike wrote:

On 7/23/2018 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

snipped ****ing contest...

I'd be interested in learning how to estimate electricity
billing using a clamp-on amp meter.

Exactly where do you clamp it?

Clamp meters measure "something" and calculate displayed
current based on varying assumptions which may not be
specified and may be only
loosely related to what the utility bills for.

My house doesn't have exposed single conductors in
a space big enough to get a clamp meter.

FWIW, I use a Blue Line unit that reads the blinking
LED on the power meter.
That should be EXACTLY what they're billing for.

If you only need average readings, just read the
numbers off the utility meter.

You can also do some fun things with a Palm III that
reads the blinking light and graphs it over time.

Would be interesting to learn how to do it with a
garden-variety clamp meter with unknown transfer
function for loads with non-unity power factor and two load
branches with different loads.

These days, with smart meter, you can get detailed usage information
right from their web site.

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:46:47 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

Yes, there are ways to tap a transformer so that
"hot" to "hot" in these will get you 240VAC. But
my head hurts when thinking of them.

It is not complicated, they just use delta instead of wye secondaries
The flaw in that plan is you only get two 120v circuits out of your 3
phase service. The 3d (red/wild) leg will be 208 above ground but you
can still use all three to run your 3 phase loads (at 240v line to
line). This is fairly common in industrial bay installations where
most of the load is single phase but they still have a significant 3
phase load to serve.
The PoCo likes it because they can do it with 2 transformers.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/3p%20delta%20vee.jpg
Typically the red leg transformer will be smaller than the one feeding
the single phase loads.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg

If you see 3 equal size transformers, it is usually 3p wye. (208)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/3%20p%20wye-wye.jpg

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:59:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:

The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.


Can you take your 2-of-3 phase and connect directly to a heat
element ? like the home 230 volt oven or clothes dryer ?
John T.

Of course, absolutely. It's electrically identical to split-phase, they are one and the same thing.

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 10:43:59 PM UTC-4, mike wrote:
On 7/23/2018 7:13 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

snipped ****ing contest...

I'd be interested in learning how to estimate electricity
billing using a clamp-on amp meter.

Exactly where do you clamp it?

Clamp meters measure "something" and calculate displayed
current based on varying assumptions which may not be
specified and may be only
loosely related to what the utility bills for.

My house doesn't have exposed single conductors in
a space big enough to get a clamp meter.

FWIW, I use a Blue Line unit that reads the blinking
LED on the power meter.
That should be EXACTLY what they're billing for.

If you only need average readings, just read the
numbers off the utility meter.

You can also do some fun things with a Palm III that
reads the blinking light and graphs it over time.

Would be interesting to learn how to do it with a
garden-variety clamp meter with unknown transfer
function for loads with non-unity power factor and two load
branches with different loads.

You can't do it with a "garden variety" clamp on meter. You;d need
one that can measure power factor, in which case you'd measure the
current flowing in the circuit you're interested in, the voltage
and the power factor between the two. For the latter two measurements
the meter would have to not only be clamp-on but have direct connection
inputs as well. If you can't get to the conductor, you can't measure it.

If it was a split-phase service as was being discussed, the power
would be:

(highest voltage reading of two hots - neutral current)* 240V * Power Factor

+

neutral current*120V*Power Factor


I used 240/120 above, you'd of course us the actual voltages measured.

For plug-in loads the simplest way is to use a KillaWatt meter.

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 10:14:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 8:24:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot..Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?


OK, It has been 45 years since I have worked as an electrician. Perhaps the proper term should be dual phase or split phase. Does that work for you? I really didn't expect I'd be waking anyone up by responding to a 7 year old post.

We went through this round and round a few years ago. I was somewhere close
to your position. I said something along the lines that there are in fact
two phases present, 180 degrees apart. But that they are derived from one
of the three phases coming down the street and commonly referred to as
split-phase. But when you spit-something, what do you get? Two things.
I wouldn't call it a two phase panel though, that's not the common term
for it. But it is very common to refer to each of the hots as a phase.

I even found a presentation a power industry engineer made at
a conference where he made the case that to correctly analyze a split-phase
system you have to treat it like what it is, a system with two phases.

The other argument is that if I start with a 3 phase system going into
a building, everyone agrees that there are 3 phases there, right? You can see
them on an oscilloscope. Now let;s remove one. How many phases now?
Two. Now instead of the phases being 120 apart, let's move one so that
they are 180 apart. How many phases now? Two. And if you look at it on a
a scope, it looks exactly like a split-phase gsystem going into the
same building and it behaves exactly like it. Electrically you can't
distinguish one from the other, they are the same thing.

That's my case, others will probably draw different conclusions.

There is single phase, 2 phase (that I doubt anyone here has ever
seen) and 3 phase. If you only use 2 legs of a 3 phase circuit, it is
single phase.

You have to start with the electrical engineering
definition of phase. It's simply the relationship between two periodic
waveforms. That's how we got the term three phase power to begin with.
It's based on the fact that the power is being generated as three separate
waveforms which are separated by 120 degrees.

Here is a good discussion going back and forth:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/t...-phase.105861/


I agree with Wbahn, the group moderator there, he's saying it's about semantics.
And note whenever anyone is challenged as to why it can't be called two phase,
it all falls back to arguments, like "but two phase was 90 deg phase difference
and it doesn't exist anymore". When challenged along the lines of how you
define phase, why if you change 90 to 180, which is just one of the many
possibilities, it suddenly can't be called two phases anymore, they have
no electrical engineering answer, no definition, it's just that they
say it isn't. Change the phase angle
from 90 to 95, would it still be two phases? Why when it reaches 180 is
it no longer two phases? When it's at 185, would it be two phases again?

The argument Wbahn makes about a single shaft generator, instead of
supplying 3 phase, make one that supplies 2 phases, at the 90
deg if you like. Two windings, differing by 90 deg, supplying two
hots with a common neutral. Would that be two phases? If not,
why not? And if yes, then why isn't it two phases if I change the
phase angle to 180? If you agree that there are two phases still
there, then that is indistinguishable from the split-phase service
that enters your house. It's all about semantics and you have to
start with the definition of phase. Phase is simply the relationship
between two periodic waveforms.



Here, from MIT, an introduction to power systems, where they start out
with the simple case of a power system with two phases.
Note it's only about two voltage sources connected to two
loads, with two voltage sources that can be at any phase angle.
Nothing about where the voltage source originated from or what the phase angle
is. Nothing about magic happening at 180 degrees, where it's no longer
a two phase system. It's the completely general electrical engineering
case of what defines a two phase power system and how you analyze it.

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electric...061S11_ch3.pdf

Make those two voltage sources be the two sides of the transformer on the
pole at your house and it;s the split-phase service that serves your house.







Where you ground that does not change the number of phases.
In fact 3 phase center tapped delta is just your regular single phase
center tapped transformer connected to a delta primary with another
transformer (or two) providing the 3d phase.
OTOH if you corner grounded that delta you would have 2 (hot)
ungrounded conductors and a neutral with 2 pole breakers but it is
clearly still 3 phase.
Two phase is a totally different breed of cat with 2 phases (4 wires)
90 degrees out of phase. This will usually be 2 transformers center
tapped with the center taps grounded (5 wire).
Split phase is a type of motor winding, perhaps the most common for AC
compressors and other applications that use a start capacitor and no
run capacitor. The "phase" is "split" by a start winding 90 degrees
out of phase with the run winding.

How you generate it doesn't matter. When this came up last time, I
even gave you a presentation made by a power engineer at a power industry
conference, about how split-phase service needs to be analyzed as a
two phase system, because that is actually what it is. I believe it
was also published, because I found it online. I don't think he got
laughed out of the room, but at the very least it was a power industry
source that said exactly what I'm saying. I just looked for it again,
couldn't find it. I'll look again later.

On 07/23/2018 08:24 PM, wrote:
I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?

OK, It has been 45 years since I have worked as an electrician. Perhaps the proper term should be dual phase or split phase. Does that work for you?

No, professionals call it single-phase.Â* Unless you want people to think you voted for Hillary, you should use the proper terminology.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 6:29:06 AM UTC-4, Ed's Electric wrote:
On 07/23/2018 08:24 PM, wrote:
I've never seen a two-phase residential panel at lowes or home depot.Â* Since they're so common, would you provide a link to one at homedepot.com or lowes.com?

OK, It has been 45 years since I have worked as an electrician. Perhaps the proper term should be dual phase or split phase. Does that work for you?

No, professionals call it single-phase.Â* Unless you want people to think you voted for Hillary, you should use the proper terminology.



Guess this manufacturer of panels, a former GE subsidiary, isn't professional?


http://www.geindustrial.com/products...ngle-phase-usa


PowerMark Gold* Single Phase - USA

PowerMark Gold - Single Phase - US

Homesphere

This product qualifies for HomeSphere** builder incentives.



PowerMark Gold load centers lower your costs by making installation faster and easier, increasing application flexibility and reducing inventory requirements. At the same time, they deliver obvious and significant advances in design, function and quality.
Features and Benefits

40-225 Amps main breaker
2 - 42 feeder circuits
22kAIC main breaker, series rated 22/10
Sturdy copper bus and galvanized box increase durability and reliability
Reduces total cost through faster, easier installation; enhanced application flexibility; and reduced inventory requirements
Solid neutrals for quick, easy, secure terminations
Available with white front



Or Square D:

Are I-Line panels available as single phase?
Issue:
Does Square D offer I-line panelboards in 1-phase?

Product Line:
Distribution panelboards

Environment:
I-line panelboards

Cause:
Product features.

Resolution:
Yes. Order a standard I-Line panel and only order breakers that are phased A-C.


Or Siemens?


https://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdist...01-ALL-web.pdf

C o n t e n t s
Load Centers
Catalog Numbering System 1-2
Siemens PL and ES Series Load Centers„¢ Introduction 1-3
WireGuide„¢ Load Centers and Breakers 1-3
PL Series Load Centers Features and Product Offering 1-4 €“ 1-5
PL Series Single Phase Main Lug & Main Breaker Load Centers 1-6
PL Series Single Phase Special Load Centers 1-7
PL Series Three Phase Main Lug & Main Breaker Load Centers 1-8
PL Series Three Phase Unassembled Load Centers 1-9
ES Series Load Centers Features and Product Offering 1-10 €“ 1-11
ES Series Single Phase Main Lug & Main Breaker Load Centers 1-12
ES Series Single Phase Special Load Centers 1-14
ES Series Three Phase Main Lug & Main Breaker Load Centers 1-15




Let me guess, you voted for Trump?

On 7/24/2018 5:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:
How you generate it doesn't matter. When this came up last time, I
even gave you a presentation made by a power engineer at a power industry
conference, about how split-phase service needs to be analyzed as a
two phase system, because that is actually what it is. I believe it
was also published, because I found it online. I don't think he got
laughed out of the room, but at the very least it was a power industry
source that said exactly what I'm saying. I just looked for it again,
couldn't find it. I'll look again later.

Grab a dual-trace oscilloscope.

Connect the Scope Common lead to transformer L1

Connect Scope Trace 1 lead to the transformer center tap

Connect Scope Trace 2 lead to transformer L2


You'll observe two screen traces in perfect sync that vary only in amplitude.Â* Only a Hillary voter would mistake it for two-phase.

On 07/24/2018 07:47 AM, BurfordTJustice wrote:
LOL!! 3 pointer!!

Thanks Coach!





"Bubba" wrote in message
...
: On 7/24/2018 5:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:
: How you generate it doesn't matter. When this came up last time, I
: even gave you a presentation made by a power engineer at a power
industry
: conference, about how split-phase service needs to be analyzed as a
: two phase system, because that is actually what it is. I believe it
: was also published, because I found it online. I don't think he got
: laughed out of the room, but at the very least it was a power industry
: source that said exactly what I'm saying. I just looked for it again,
: couldn't find it. I'll look again later.
:
: Grab a dual-trace oscilloscope.
:
: Connect the Scope Common lead to transformer L1
:
: Connect Scope Trace 1 lead to the transformer center tap
:
: Connect Scope Trace 2 lead to transformer L2
:
:
: You'll observe two screen traces in perfect sync that vary only in
amplitude. Only a Hillary voter would mistake it for two-phase.
:

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 7:43:54 AM UTC-4, Bubba wrote:
On 7/24/2018 5:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:
How you generate it doesn't matter. When this came up last time, I
even gave you a presentation made by a power engineer at a power industry
conference, about how split-phase service needs to be analyzed as a
two phase system, because that is actually what it is. I believe it
was also published, because I found it online. I don't think he got
laughed out of the room, but at the very least it was a power industry
source that said exactly what I'm saying. I just looked for it again,
couldn't find it. I'll look again later.

Grab a dual-trace oscilloscope.

Connect the Scope Common lead to transformer L1

Connect Scope Trace 1 lead to the transformer center tap

Connect Scope Trace 2 lead to transformer L2


You'll observe two screen traces in perfect sync that vary only in amplitude.Â* Only a Hillary voter would mistake it for two-phase.

Did you read the link I posted to the discussion on that other forum?

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/t...-phase.105861/

The group moderator, Wbahn posted this:

Take two generators built on a single shaft (the same way that three-phase generators are built on a single shaft) so that you get two 120VAC outputs that are 180 degrees out of phase. Would it be reasonable to call this two-phase power?

Bubba, what's your answer?



Now run them to a house and tie them together so that you have 120VAC between the common and either of the other lines and 240VAC between the two lines. Would it still be reasonable to call this two-phase power?

Bubba?



Could you tell the difference between that situation and the one in which the wires coming to the house are from a center-tapped transformer?

Bubba?


If not, then wouldn't it be reasonable to use the same name for either?
(that was Wbahns final question)

Bubba?


And what he described would still show exactly the same thing on the scope
as the test you described. In all the above, if we changed the phase
difference to 90, would it then be two phase? How about to 179 deg?
In engineering we don't make it up case by case, we analyze the general
case. 180 is just one special case, where it's easy to generate two
voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other. Or go
take a look at the MIT electrical engineering course in power systems
where they show the mathematics of what
they call two phase power. There are simply two voltage sources
driving two loads. They do the analysis for a 90 deg phase difference,
but you could just as well do the same analysis for a difference of 70
degrees or 180 degrees. The same analysis, the same math applies,
because to the system, it is the same thing.

It's like Wbahn says, it's a matter of semantics and convention.

If you feel differently, then give us your definition of two phase,
3 phase, and N phase power and show us why split-phase is not also
two phases? The only way I see it's not would be to rule that special case
out by *definition*, which is back to the semantics. In that case,
if you can site the electrical body, authority, organization that
has done that, I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 8:55:23 AM UTC-4, Bubba wrote:
On 07/24/2018 07:47 AM, BurfordTJustice wrote:
LOL!! 3 pointer!!

Thanks Coach!


Yes, thanking the Russian troll who creates dozens off OT, divisive,
stupid threads a day is a good way to add to your credibility.
Birds of a feather....