On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 10:56:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:21:47 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 3:05:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 12:29:30 -0400, Single Phase wrote:

On 8/6/2018 11:04 AM, trader_4 wrote:
And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there..

A residential transformer secondary is one continuous conductor from end L1 to end L2.

Assuming a purely resistive load on the secondary and ignoring crossings where Volts=0,

at any point in time the current is either flowing from L1 towards L2 or from L2 towards L1.

In order for the transformer secondary to truly have 2-phases 180° apart, the current would have to be flowing from L1 towards L2 AND from L2 towards L1 at the same instant.

And that, my liberal friend, would be the mother of all parlor tricks..

It is not even a parlor trick to actually connect 2 transformers
together that are truly 180 out of phase and you would then have 2
separate voltage sources grounded in the middle but you would not have
240v available to you, no matter what you did and no current would
ever flow in the neutral.

Back to the transformer fetish? Why can't you answer simple questions
about a generator with two windings? Good grief. I can.

If I had 2 generator windings out of phase (opposite current flow,
wound in the other direction or how ever you want to define that) same
result.

Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

You simply do not know enough about 2 phase to even engage.
I

Then you just start sounding stupid

You can't answer the simple questions a student would ask a teacher in
circuits 101, yet I'm the one who's supposed to be stupid? I give
you a simple example, where I morph the old 90 deg two phase into
exactly what 240/120 service is and you won't answer the questions.
Instead you divert to transformers, when there is no transformer.
Now you've gone further down the rabbit hole, declaring that you can't
analyze simple electrical circuits unless that circuit exists in the
real world.

Here are the simple questions again:

Problem two:

According to Fretwell, two phase power existed 100 years ago, and it
was over two wires, 90 degrees phase difference. Suppose I run it
over 3 wires instead, with a shared neutral, make it 120V. So,
you have a generator supplying 120V, two coils, one shared neutral.
Would there still be two phases there?
(I believe Fretwell said yes)
Your answer?

So now, I run that from the generator into a house, we have three wires,
120V, two phases.
If I change the phase difference to 179 degrees instead of 90
by rotating one coil, are there still two phases? Yes or no?


Now I rotate it to 180 phase difference. Are there still two phases,
yes or no? If you disagree, explain how it's different, how there
suddenly there are not two phases there.


(My answer is yes and the final step above makes it absolutely IDENTICAL
to what you have coming into the house with 240/120. The electrons
are behaving exactly the same. )


Problem number 3

I take 3 phase power with a neutral into a house. One phase is at zero,
one is at 120, one is at 240, correct? I can see them on a scope, yes?

Now I rotate one coil so that instead of 120, it's at 179. Are there
still three phases?

Now I rotate it one degree more, to 180. Are there still 3 phases,
yes or no?

Now take away the 240 phase. How many phases now? If it's not two,
explain why.

And if it is two, then again, it's now ELECTRICALLY IDENTICAL TO 240/120 service.
IF you believe it's electrically different, explain why and how it matters
in terms of the behavior of the electrons in the service conductors.


Problem number 4:

Draw the basic circuit model of 240/120 service. My model uses TWO
voltage sources, with a shared neutral. One is 120V sin(wt), the
other 120V sin(wt+180) or of alternate polarity connection, if you
like. That is the only way to model that circuit, because that is
what is there. When you center tap it, you now have TWO voltage
sources. Which by the way is exactly what the professor is saying,
you have two sources, 180 out of phase with each other, that's how
you treat it. Do you agree with that? If not, tell us your alternate model..