On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:53:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 08:04:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 2:54:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:25:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 1:36:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 9:48:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 15:54:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 3:50:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 12:40:52 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 08/04/2018 10:54 AM, wrote:

[snip]


Google up "delta vee", "Scott tee" and stop sounding ignorant of the
facts.

I looked those up. As I expected, they are "delta V" and "Scott T".
Often pronounced the other way, but written this way.

You also can't have a phase relationship more than 180 degrees (as you
have theorized) because the phase rotation would change and we would
be back to the complementary angle going the other way.

If it's going the other way (and not 180?*), it's a different phase.
120? is different from -120? (also called 240?). It's on the OTHER SIDE
(or the circle). A complete cycle is 360? not 180.

* since 180? IS equal to -180?

[snip]

But when you are talking about a triangle (which 3p Delta looks like)

We're not talking about 3 phase, you're dragging that in for obfuscation.
But since you want to go there, it's one of the problems I presented you
in your simple series of questions that you can't answer. Here it is
again:


But that is exactly what you get when you have 2 end to end
secondaries out of phase with each other. The 3d phase will suddenly
appear. Until you understand that, the rest of your scenario is
bull****.

You're really wandering in the wilderness here. First, it's again noted
that you can't discuss simple scenarios, simple systems with a generator
with two windings that have a phase difference, without diverting back
to transformers and secondaries. FORGET about transformers, they are not
required. The third phase in our power grid doesn't "appear" from a
transformer, it's generated from one of the THREE windings at the generator.
It really is that simple. Maybe we should start with that simple
question. Do you agree with that? That a 3 phase generator at the power
plant has three windings? One at zero, one at 120, one at 240 degrees?

They do but only for efficiency, I think it would still work if they
had 2.

OK, so you agree there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240. It's a wye with
neutral coming out of the generator. I run that into a house,
it's 3 phases, correct?

PoCo generators make delta but OK

Now I rotate one winding so that instead of 120, it's at 140 or 179 deg,
is it still 3 phases?

Another pink unicorn. Talk real life and I will engage.

Real electrical engineers can engage on any generator, any number
of phases, and phase angle. There is nothing sacred about
any specific degrees of phase. And I suspect you know that,
it's just that when you have
to rotate it to various angles, you know how it leads step by step
to being electrically identical to 240/120v, so you won't address it.







We talk about transformers because that is how the power gets into the
house. The source comes out of the power plant as ungrounded 3p delta.
That is transmitted as high voltage, ungrounded 3p delta. Medium
voltage (street level) distribution will either be ungrounded 3p delta
or 3p wye (usually at 13-26kv).
You don't get to see that center tap until it gets to your service
drop.
That is why we need to talk about transformers and not some pink
unicorn fantasy voltage distribution.

That's just total BS. If that's the case, what do you do in FL when
your power goes out? I plug in a generator, one proof that you
don't need a transformer.

It is still a single center tapped winding coming out of the generator
producing single phase power. There is no substantial difference in a
generator and a transformer except that the magnetic field to the
"secondary" is produced mechanically instead of electrically.

And that's why I've tried ten times now to lead you through a generator
example where I take what you say was two phase and morph it one
small step at a time into what is exactly the same as 240/120 service.
It's a perfect valid, very simple, electrical engineering analysis.
But you won't admit it because there are obviously two phases there.

I've done the same thing with 3 phase, change one phase angle from 120
to 180, get rid of the conductor that's 240 phase, and you have the
exact same thing as your home generator or 240/120 service. But you
won't address that example either, calling it a pink unicorn, because
it too is exactly the same as 240/120 and you can't explain where
a phase disappeared to.

In short, I can address all cases, answer all questions, which are at
the circuits 101 first couple of days level. No need to claim something
is a pink unicorn. That's why you can't answer those series of simple
questions, you're stuck.

We live in the real world, not some place where theory trumps reality

Put that down on as an answer on your circuits 101 test. I can't answer
a simple theoretical circuits question because it doesn't exist. I must
have it implemented in an actual circuit before me. Do you not see how
silly that sounds? The reason you can't answer those questions, one after
the other is it leads directly to unanswerable contradictions. When you
apply electrical engineering consistently, there are no contradictions.






The fact remains when you rotate an angle to 180, you have a straight
line and there is no phase angle.

Complete nonsense. A phase angle of 180 is every bit as real as ones at
90, 120, 179 or 181. At an angle of 180, two voltage sources are direct
opposites of each other. It really, really is that simple. Which again
is why I can answer all those simple questions a student would ask.



When you stand in the middle of anything and look both ways, you might
think you are looking at two things but it is one thing