On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 11:07:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:28:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 14:32:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Fretwell's new interesting position is that phases disappear if they
are 180. And that also somehow also kills off other phases, because he says
if I take a 3 phase system and move the 120 phase to 180, POOF, it
becomes a single phase system.

Your scenario was 2 windings and if 2 windings have no angular
displacement (wound around the core, generator or transformer in the
same direction and excited in the same axis magnetically or
mechanically), the output is single phase.

Good grief, from the very beginning I have had the winding with
differing angles in each of the two very simple examples I gave you.
In this example it was 3 phases. One at 0, one at 120, one at 240.
That is 3 phase, yes? So now I rotate the 120 winding so it's at 179.
You said that was still 3 phase. So, if I drew a phasor diagram, I'd
have three vectors, one at 0, one at 179, one at 240, you agreed with
that. Now I rotate it one more degree to 180 and POOF, it's gone?
Your phasor diagram would now have only two vectors? And why would
that not be two phase, since there are only two in your world?

My world, there are still three vectors and it's still 3 phase. It's
easy when you know the rules and apply them consistently.

I noticed you did not respond to the numerous posts that showed you 3
phase delta with two windings. These exist on poles all over the
country, not in your fertile imagination.

I notice that you almost never respond to what I post, instead diverting
to transformers. Transformers are not required and are a redirection to
the wilderness.

I ask again, draw a phasor diagram for a 3 phase generator. You have
vectors at 0, 120, 240 deg, yes? They represent PHASES, with voltages,
power that are real. Now rotate the 120 phase winding to 179 deg. You say
we still have 3 phases. Let's draw the diagram again. We simply move
the 120 vector over to 179. And you say that still represents 3 phases.
Now I move the winding to 180 and we suddenly have two very different views of
what is correct.

I say you simply move the vector one degree, you now have a 3 phase diagram
with vectors at 0, 180, 240 deg. It defines and explains what is there.

You say that POOF, somehow now I have single phase. I still haven't heard
your version of the new diagram, but presumably the 180 phase vector just
disappeared? If so, where did it go? Those three vectors represented
voltage and power, I just lost one by moving it one degree? Does that
make sense from anything you know about physics, science, electricity?
Can I now grab hold of that 180 phase? If not, then there must be voltage
there, power there, yet it's not on the phasor diagram?

And if you follow my generator example to the next step, which is to
get rid of the 240 winding, then you have two vectors left, one at 0 deg,
one at 180 deg, and the service into a house.


BTW, the phasor diagram explains your open delta configuration too.

And I can draw a phasor diagram that represents the 240/120 service into
a house. One 120V vector at 0 degrees, one 120V vector at 180 degrees.
It all works beautifully, it's all consistent. Where is your alternate
phasor diagram for that, where there are not two vectors?

Again, if I tell an electrical engineer that they have a three
wire power source whe

two 120v voltage sources share a common neutral
one source is 180 deg out of phase with the other
either source can deliver a max of 200A

That's all they need to know to analyze it, use it, design with it.
It doesn't matter if it came from a transformer, generator, or synthesized
from an electronic black box. They can draw the phasor diagram that
represents it. It's the 3 wire service into a house.