On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 7:20:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 2:19:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, August 9, 2018 at 10:10:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
It really is that simple. If you
make N=90, you have the old 90 deg two phase implemented over 3 wires
instead of two.

And what if you make N = 180 deg

How many phases do you have now?

m

Two phases, which is precisely my point. If you have two phases at 90,
two phases at 179, two at 181, then you have two at 180.
It's all consistent. Otherwise there is a "parlor trick" at 180.


I refer to transformers because that is what we use

You keep going off to transformers because you can't explain the simple
circuits and divert to the wilderness.


Everything I say also will apply to a generator winding. You are the
one off in the wilderness talking about things that don't exist.
Transformers and generators are easy to see.


So now it's back to the position that we can only talk about that
which has actually been built.






but you can
replace the primary with a rotating field (alternator) and nothing
changes.

That's why I tried to show you how a simple two phase or a three
phase generator source can be morphed into exactly the same thing
as 240/120 but you instead are now making silly claims, like I
can't have two phases without 4 wires. BTW, if I can't have two
phases without 4 wires, what happens in your split-phase motor,
where we have two phases on 3 wires? I morphed the 3 phase into
the service into your house too, but you claim magic happens.
There are still 3 phases when I move one winding to 179 deg, but
at 180, POOF, it's gone! And even more bizarre, you claim that
if I move it to 181, it becomes 179 again? Wow.

It disappears because at 180, you have a straight line with no phase
shift. You can't have any kind of poly phase without a phase shift.


Draw us the phasor diagram for a three phase 120V generator. Mine
has 120V vectors at 0, 120, and 240 degrees. Rotate the 120 winding
to 179. Now the drawing has the 120 vector moved to 179 degrees.
It would seem you agree with that, you said it was still 3 phases
if I rotated the 120 to 179, right?
Now move it to 180, my drawing still has a 120V vector at 180 degrees.
It would be some bizarre world where it suddenly disappeared. You're
telling us your phasor diagram for that generator would now only have
two vectors, one at 0, one at 240? And further, you said it now
becomes single phase. Where did that poor 240 phase disappear to?
This is just nuts. You really need to rethink that.

BTW, what's your phasor diagram for the 240/120 service? Mine is
two 120V vectors, one at 0 deg, one at 180 deg. See how easy it is
and how it all works when you're consistent?





The problem you can't have just 2 phases if they are connected. Until
you understand that we will keep laughing at you.

These folks aren't laughing:

https://www.eeweb.com/quizzes/two-ph...ee-wire-system

https://cdn.eeweb.com/articles/quizz...1430295632.png

What is "Sq/rt 2V" in this diagram but a 3d phase?

It's not a third phase from the power source. It's not being generated
at the power source. It's the DIFFERENCE between the two phases supplied.
And clearly they are calling it, showing it, as TWO PHASE POWER, not
3 phase.




The next frame shows it like this
https://cdn.eeweb.com/articles/quizz...1430295633.png

Uh, well, no it doesn't do that at all. That diagram is clearly shown
as the old 4 wire system. They clearly say BOTH 3 wire and 4 wire two
phase are possible. They show both. They say:

[1]The 2-Phase, 3-Wire System is still used at some places. The third wire is taken from the junction of the two phase-windings I and II, whose voltages are in quadrature with each other as shown in Figure 1.

(Imagine that, exactly my generator example that you say is impossible)

And then they say:


As compared to 2-phase, 4-wire system (Figure 2), the 3-wire system suffers from the defect that it produces voltage unbalance because of the unsymmetrical voltage drop in the neutral.



They don't say, no it doesn't exist, no it's impossible, no it's really
3 phase. In other words, they completely agree with my position.




and explains why you never see it.

As compared to 2-phase, 4-wire system (Figure 2), the 3-wire system
suffers from the defect that it produces voltage unbalance because of
the unsymmetrical voltage drop in the neutral.

Irrelevant of course. We were looking at what makes two phase power
or N phase power, not what the efficiency of any given implementation is
or why it is or isn't used.




Source:
A.K Theraja and B.L Theraja. A Textbook of Electrical Technology.
Volume 3. Transmission, Distribution and Utilization. Chapter 41. pp.
1614-1615. [1] Chapter 41.6. pp. 1608. Ram Nagar, New Delhi. 2005.



S L O W L Y

Slowly, transformers are totally unnecessary to create a N phase
power source. Transformers are your diversion into the wilderness.
You keep going to specific implementations of whatever with a transformer
instead of address the simple case WITHOUT transformers, which just
are an additional complication.

I already told you, everything I say still works just fine with
generator windings. Where are you getting your voltage out that pink
unicorn's ass?.

I get it the same place as the example above, which you appear to
accept, except for the fact that it shows two phase power over just
3 wires, I guess. Even better, they actually say that two phases
over 3 wires actually exists.