My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?


Thanks for your help

On Apr 20, 3:49*pm, cln wrote:
My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker *+ *4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

"cln" wrote in message
...
My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run 2-12/2 cables or
1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between the circuits any way you
like.

How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? **pretty much, as many as you like
for general purpose countertops



And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch. ** 1-14/2 will sufice for you lighting needs



I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used. ** If it's a countertop model, it doesn't
need a separate circuit




So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?


Thanks for your help

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Apr 20, 3:49 pm, cln wrote:
My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole breaker,
but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles

On Apr 20, 4:30*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 3:49 pm, cln wrote:





My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. *Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole breaker,
but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles.

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI
receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too
good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and
then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a
240V breaker. I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate
12/2s from there. (ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen,
which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Apr 20, 4:30 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 3:49 pm, cln wrote:





My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole breaker,
but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles.

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI
receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too
good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and
then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a
240V breaker. I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate
12/2s from there. (ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen,
which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

Personally, I prefer to use GFCI receptacles at every counter top location,
to keep any fault problems localized, they're certainly cheap enough these
days. But if you wanted to do it with just 2, you run the circuit to a large
junction box, install one GFCI there, with 2- 12/2 tails out to the next
locations. One tail off the load of that GFCI and one sharing the neutral
and the second circuit, which you run into another box, where you locate the
second GFCI, with a 12/2 tail out, off of it's load

Thanks RBM & N8N

After talking to the guys at the store, THIS makes more sense than
what they led me to believe.

I got enough to go by now! Of course, I might be back...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing
but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this
done by a professional.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run 2-12/2 cables or
1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between the circuits any way you
like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a shared
neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit. Which I would
not recommend, given the potential problems. And for what? Just spend
the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x
12/2). Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

not recommend, given the potential problems. And for what? Just spend
the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x
12/2). Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.


Makes sense, thanks

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing
but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this
done by a professional.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run 2-12/2 cables
or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between the circuits any way
you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a shared
neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit. Which I would not
recommend, given the potential problems. And for what? Just spend the
extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x 12/2).
Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way of
doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no "potential
problems"

cln wrote:
Thanks RBM & N8N

After talking to the guys at the store, THIS makes more sense than
what they led me to believe.

I got enough to go by now! Of course, I might be back...

you might run your plans by whoever you get to do the rest of the electrical
before you sign a contract with them. some won't want to touch stuff done by
you, some will, some will want to specify what you do so that it's
acceptable to them....

On 4/20/2011 2:24 PM RBM spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the
framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be
getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets above
the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between
the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a
shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit.
Which I would not recommend, given the potential problems. And for
what? Just spend the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run
the proper cables (2x 12/2). Don't dick around with trying to
minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way of
doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no "potential
problems"

Well, that's true for the work that *you're* doing. But what about the
doofus who comes in after you, years later, and decides to switch around
cables in the breaker panel to make room for another circuit, and ends
up putting you properly-wired Edison circuit hots on the same side of
the service entrance?

It's been known to happen ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 4/20/2011 2:24 PM RBM spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the
framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be
getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets above
the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between
the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a
shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit.
Which I would not recommend, given the potential problems. And for
what? Just spend the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run
the proper cables (2x 12/2). Don't dick around with trying to
minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way
of doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no
"potential problems"

Well, that's true for the work that *you're* doing. But what about the
doofus who comes in after you, years later, and decides to switch around
cables in the breaker panel to make room for another circuit, and ends up
putting you properly-wired Edison circuit hots on the same side of the
service entrance?

It's been known to happen ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

There is never going to be a failsafe against stupidity. The Nec now
requires a double pole breaker on Edison circuits, which is intended to
prevent miswires. In this case, the OP is having it done by a professional,
so as long as he's not planning to screw with the wiring, there shouldn't be
an issue.

On 4/20/2011 3:20 PM RBM spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...

On 4/20/2011 2:24 PM RBM spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did
the framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I
will be getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets
above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets
between the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning
a shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison
circuit. Which I would not recommend, given the potential
problems. And for what? Just spend the extra $0.25
(metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x 12/2).
Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a
proper way of doing it. As with anything else, done properly,
there are no "potential problems"

Well, that's true for the work that *you're* doing. But what about
the doofus who comes in after you, years later, and decides to
switch around cables in the breaker panel to make room for another
circuit, and ends up putting you properly-wired Edison circuit hots
on the same side of the service entrance?

It's been known to happen ...

There is never going to be a failsafe against stupidity. The Nec now
requires a double pole breaker on Edison circuits, which is intended to
prevent miswires. In this case, the OP is having it done by a professional,
so as long as he's not planning to screw with the wiring, there shouldn't be
an issue.

Well, yes, a double-pole breaker, *clearly marked*, would be just the
ticket.

By the way, I agree--*strongly*--with whoever said that the O.P. ought
to clear all this with the prospective electrician first.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

On Apr 20, 3:49*pm, cln wrote:
My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker *+ *4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

My thoughts, not an electrician. The refrigerator should have it's own
circuit, max two on that line. Igo with separate line for microwave.
It takes enough power to have it's own line and is also a safety and
noise issue. High current devices should have their own ckt. That's
three so far, and I would split remaining outlets on two more ckts.
Some of today's ovens don't need 30 amp cots, and 20 amp 220v dual
breaker is typically enough, but check oven.
I count 6 circuits. Separate GFI outlets.

Greg

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:19:23 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Apr 20, 4:30 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 3:49 pm, cln wrote:





My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole breaker,
but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles.

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI
receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too
good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and
then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a
240V breaker. I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate
12/2s from there. (ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen,
which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

Personally, I prefer to use GFCI receptacles at every counter top location,
to keep any fault problems localized, they're certainly cheap enough these
days. But if you wanted to do it with just 2, you run the circuit to a large
junction box, install one GFCI there, with 2- 12/2 tails out to the next
locations. One tail off the load of that GFCI and one sharing the neutral
and the second circuit, which you run into another box, where you locate the
second GFCI, with a 12/2 tail out, off of it's load


Kitchen appliances use lots of power. I would consider putting each
outlet on a separate circuit. At least every other outlet should be
on a separate circuit.

The mixer alone is 1400 watts You could not use anything over 1000
watts at the same time on that circuit without tripping the breaker.
Two 1100 watt appliances at the same time on any circuit will be close
to tripping the breaker.

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5406402...nces-use_.html
This web site was the first hit. It shows how much power some common
kitchen appliances use.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:24:37 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing
but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this
done by a professional.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run 2-12/2 cables
or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between the circuits any way
you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a shared
neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit. Which I would not
recommend, given the potential problems. And for what? Just spend the
extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x 12/2).
Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way of
doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no "potential
problems"

GFCIs won't work on a split neutral.

On Apr 20, 6:38*pm, zek wrote:
On Apr 20, 3:49*pm, cln wrote:





My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker *+ *4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

My thoughts, not an electrician. The refrigerator should have it's own
circuit, max two on that line. Igo with separate line for microwave.
It takes enough power to have it's own line and is also a safety and
noise issue. High current devices should have their own ckt. That's
three so far, and I would split remaining outlets on two more ckts.
Some of today's ovens don't need 30 amp cots, and 20 amp 220v dual
breaker is typically enough, but check oven.
I count 6 circuits. Separate GFI outlets.

Greg

I have a simple small kitchen, but added some circuits since I moved
in. I can run my two microwaves, one is a combo turbo/microwave at the
same time along with another turbo oven, and even another one, I plug
in. I frequently have two microwaves running along with the separate
turbo, all at the same time, not counting the gas oven and gas
burners.

Ironic, my little panasonic microwave is the most powerful at
1200watts out. I think it draws 14-15 amps.

A turbo oven is an oven with fan created currents, while all oven
create convection regardless of fan.

Greg

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:24:37 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
rs.com...
On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing
but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this
done by a professional.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run 2-12/2
cables
or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between the circuits any way
you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a shared
neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit. Which I would
not
recommend, given the potential problems. And for what? Just spend the
extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x
12/2).
Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way of
doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no "potential
problems"

GFCIs won't work on a split neutral.

** Don't know what you're calling a split neutral, but they work fine on
Edison circuits

On 4/20/2011 3:58 PM RBM spake thus:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:24:37 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...


My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did
the framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I
will be getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets
above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets
between the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning
a shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison
circuit. Which I would not recommend, given the potential
problems. And for what? Just spend the extra $0.25
(metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x 12/2).
Don't dick around with trying to minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a
proper way of doing it. As with anything else, done properly,
there are no "potential problems"

GFCIs won't work on a split neutral.

** Don't know what you're calling a split neutral, but they work fine on
Edison circuits

I think he meant to type "shared neutral", and I see no reason why they
wouldn't work with one either.

I still wouldn't do it, though; what's the point? to show off how clever
an electrician you are?

Oh, yeah, to save a couple buck's worth of cable ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
. com...
On 4/20/2011 3:58 PM RBM spake thus:

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:24:37 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

"cln" wrote in message
...


My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did
the framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I
will be getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets
above the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets
between the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning
a shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison
circuit. Which I would not recommend, given the potential
problems. And for what? Just spend the extra $0.25
(metaphorically speaking) and run the proper cables (2x 12/2). Don't
dick around with trying to minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a
proper way of doing it. As with anything else, done properly,
there are no "potential problems"

GFCIs won't work on a split neutral.

** Don't know what you're calling a split neutral, but they work fine on
Edison circuits

I think he meant to type "shared neutral", and I see no reason why they
wouldn't work with one either.

I still wouldn't do it, though; what's the point? to show off how clever
an electrician you are?

Oh, yeah, to save a couple buck's worth of cable ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)


** Typically, Edison circuits are used to save labor. There isn't a whole
lot of price difference between two 2 wire cables or one 3 wire cable, but,
if the run is 75 feet from the panel, it can be a real time saver.
When I do kitchen counter outlets, I like to run a 3 wire circuit
daisy-chained between all the outlets. I stagger the A and B circuits from
outlet to outlet, but I have both circuits available at each location, in
case there is a need to switch the arrangement.

On 4/20/2011 4:49 PM RBM spake thus:

** Typically, Edison circuits are used to save labor. There isn't a whole
lot of price difference between two 2 wire cables or one 3 wire cable, but,
if the run is 75 feet from the panel, it can be a real time saver.
When I do kitchen counter outlets, I like to run a 3 wire circuit
daisy-chained between all the outlets. I stagger the A and B circuits from
outlet to outlet, but I have both circuits available at each location, in
case there is a need to switch the arrangement.

So do you put pull out wires for the opposite side (the side you're
*not* using for that outlet), and connect them together in the box?
Guess you'd have to, if you ever wanted to switch circuits later.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 4/20/2011 4:49 PM RBM spake thus:

** Typically, Edison circuits are used to save labor. There isn't a whole
lot of price difference between two 2 wire cables or one 3 wire cable,
but, if the run is 75 feet from the panel, it can be a real time saver.
When I do kitchen counter outlets, I like to run a 3 wire circuit
daisy-chained between all the outlets. I stagger the A and B circuits
from outlet to outlet, but I have both circuits available at each
location, in case there is a need to switch the arrangement.

So do you put pull out wires for the opposite side (the side you're *not*
using for that outlet), and connect them together in the box? Guess you'd
have to, if you ever wanted to switch circuits later.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

**Yes, all the wires are spliced with wire nuts, and the outlets are
pigtailed to whichever circuit I'm using at each location

This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

If your getting permits for all this?

Future inspections by health authorties etc?

Space in main panel for expansion?

If OP has a handy knowledgable friend to help him you could do the
electrical yourself and learn something while you at it

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:37:17 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:

This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

Often there are exceptions made for a mother/daughter apartment, perhaps with
a shared entrance, or some such. Like all this stuff, it varies *widely* by
jurisdiction.

If your getting permits for all this?

Future inspections by health authorties etc?

Space in main panel for expansion?

If OP has a handy knowledgable friend to help him you could do the
electrical yourself and learn something while you at it

"cln" wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

This seems prudent. In many parts of N.America the fire safety
code requires that new elec. wiring requires a building permit and
must be installed by an accredited electrician.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.. . .
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.
So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire?

Licensed electricians know the answers.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Apr 20, 9:41*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:37:17 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:
This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

Often there are exceptions made for a mother/daughter apartment, perhaps with
a shared entrance, or some such. *Like all this stuff, it varies *widely* by
jurisdiction.



Agree. If he's pulling permits, then that's the first thing I'd look
into
before I did anything else to make sure the second kitchen is
OK.

On Apr 20, 5:19*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 4:30 pm, "RBM" wrote:





"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 3:49 pm, cln wrote:

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole breaker,
but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles.

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI
receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too
good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and
then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a
240V breaker. *I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate
12/2s from there. *(ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen,
which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

Personally, I prefer to use GFCI receptacles at every counter top location,
to keep any fault problems localized, they're certainly cheap enough these
days. But if you wanted to do it with just 2, you run the circuit to a large
junction box, install one GFCI there, with 2- 12/2 tails out to the next
locations. One tail off the load of that GFCI and one sharing the neutral
and the second circuit, which you run into another box, where you locate the
second GFCI, with a 12/2 tail out, off of it's load

Ah, that would work, but I sense a philosophical incongruity with that
plan... why attempt to localize ground faults but an overload kills
both circuits?

Personally I would still pull 2x 12/2 all the way to the box unless
there was a *real* long run.

Based on the OP's mention of having to add "a second panel" I would
probably put a 60A or 100A subpanel right near the new kitchen and
then use individual circuits from there.

nate

On 4/20/2011 9:37 PM, bob haller wrote:
This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

If your getting permits for all this?

Future inspections by health authorties etc?

Lots of folks overlook that one. If you are selling food to the public
your facility needs to be NSF compliant. So "standard home kitchen"
furnishings and equipment won't be acceptable.



Space in main panel for expansion?

If OP has a handy knowledgable friend to help him you could do the
electrical yourself and learn something while you at it

On 4/20/2011 2:49 PM, cln wrote:
My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?


Thanks for your help
Just my suggestion. I would install duplex outlets every 2-3 feet above
the counter tops. I would also use a separate circuit for each outlet.
That way you don't have to worry about whether the toaster and the
coffee maker are on the same circuit. To many people that will seem
like over kill, but I think from a convenience stand point it will
be well worth it.

Bill

On 4/20/2011 5:20 PM, RBM wrote:
"David wrote in message
s.com...
On 4/20/2011 2:24 PM RBM spake thus:

"David wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the
framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be
getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets above
the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between
the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a
shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit.
Which I would not recommend, given the potential problems. And for
what? Just spend the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run
the proper cables (2x 12/2). Don't dick around with trying to
minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way
of doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no
"potential problems"

Well, that's true for the work that *you're* doing. But what about the
doofus who comes in after you, years later, and decides to switch around
cables in the breaker panel to make room for another circuit, and ends up
putting you properly-wired Edison circuit hots on the same side of the
service entrance?

It's been known to happen ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

There is never going to be a failsafe against stupidity.

Maybe only licensed professionals should work on wiring?
I don't understand some of the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Edison circuits.

The Nec now
requires a double pole breaker on Edison circuits, which is intended to
prevent miswires. In this case, the OP is having it done by a professional,
so as long as he's not planning to screw with the wiring, there shouldn't be
an issue.


You can also use separate breakers and a listed handle tie on Edison
circuits.

Seems like the "common disconnect" for multiwire branch circuits would
make them fairly uncommon for commercial and industrial. I remember a
hospital where the vast majority of 120 and 277V circuits were multiwire
3-phase. I can't imagine doing that now if you have to disconnect all
the circuits to work on one of them. AFCIs - generally required to be in
the panel - also have taken a toll on multiwire branch circuits.

--
bud--

On Apr 20, 2:49*pm, cln wrote:
My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

snip
Whoa there...
You may be setting yourself up for a real problem. Consider this
scenario: you get the work done, the bake shop has some success and a
reporter from your Daily Tattler does a nice article in the Homemakers
section of the paper. People at City Hall notice and find there is no
business permit, state sales tax number, permits for any of the home
modifications (maybe excepting electrical, hopefully), food service
permit, updated tax assessment, and numerous other ordinance
violations. Guess what might happen next.
All of this may not matter if it's just a hobby, but if not, then it
would be wise to sit down with the family lawyer and set up an S
Corporation and go through the usual steps of setting up a business.
Renting some commercial space is easy these days with the business
climate as poor as it is.
Tangling with bureaucrats is never fun because they nearly always
prevail.
I will pass on your original question because there are some good
opinions already posted here.
Joe

"bud--" wrote in message
...
On 4/20/2011 5:20 PM, RBM wrote:
"David wrote in message
s.com...
On 4/20/2011 2:24 PM RBM spake thus:

"David wrote in message
.com...

On 4/20/2011 1:23 PM RBM spake thus:

wrote in message
...

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a
second kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the
framing but I draw the line at electrical work so I will be
getting this done by a professional.

Here are my questions; What wire do I use for the outlets above
the countertop?

**You use 12 gauge, you need 2-20 amp circuits. You can run
2-12/2 cables or 1-12/3 cable. You can split the outlets between
the circuits any way you like.

Except that, as already noted here, you can't use 12/3 (meaning a
shared neutral) unless you put 2 circuits on an Edison circuit.
Which I would not recommend, given the potential problems. And for
what? Just spend the extra $0.25 (metaphorically speaking) and run
the proper cables (2x 12/2). Don't dick around with trying to
minimize cabling.

**Using 12/3 in an Edison circuit is , and has always been a proper way
of doing it. As with anything else, done properly, there are no
"potential problems"

Well, that's true for the work that *you're* doing. But what about the
doofus who comes in after you, years later, and decides to switch around
cables in the breaker panel to make room for another circuit, and ends
up
putting you properly-wired Edison circuit hots on the same side of the
service entrance?

It's been known to happen ...


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)

There is never going to be a failsafe against stupidity.

Maybe only licensed professionals should work on wiring?
I don't understand some of the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Edison circuits.

The Nec now
requires a double pole breaker on Edison circuits, which is intended to
prevent miswires. In this case, the OP is having it done by a
professional,
so as long as he's not planning to screw with the wiring, there shouldn't
be
an issue.


You can also use separate breakers and a listed handle tie on Edison
circuits.

Seems like the "common disconnect" for multiwire branch circuits would
make them fairly uncommon for commercial and industrial. I remember a
hospital where the vast majority of 120 and 277V circuits were multiwire
3-phase. I can't imagine doing that now if you have to disconnect all the
circuits to work on one of them. AFCIs - generally required to be in the
panel - also have taken a toll on multiwire branch circuits.

--
bud--


**I suppose that the resistance is mostly from those that want to keep
things simple, so they can't easily screw them up. Truth is, with the handle
tie and AFCI rules, Edison branch circuits are pretty much a thing of the
past.

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Apr 20, 5:19 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 4:30 pm, "RBM" wrote:





"N8N" wrote in message

...
On Apr 20, 3:49 pm, cln wrote:

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.

So I got my first quote on electrical work. The quote came steep at
$2600 so I descided to get a second quote...well 4 calls later, he
still has not establish a time for a quote. JUST the quote. can't wait
to line this guy up for the actuall word!! And to defend the first
guys, we might have to go with a second panel since the first one is
nearly full.

Whoever I pick, I still would like to do some of the work myself.
Rates in this region are $40-45+ an hour so there is no way that I'll
get someone to fish the wires and drill holes in the studs.

Here are my questions;
What wire do I use for the outlets above the countertop? How many
outlets can I have on each breaker? And what wire am I going to use
for lighting on one switch.

I will have; (by outlet I mean a standard 2 plug)
1 Oven and 1 refrigerator on deticated lines and breaker.
1 Outlet for a lift pump (GFCI or GFI).
Above the coutertops I will have 6 or 8 outlets. One of which will run
a 115v 11 amp Mixer.
I've read that a microwave should be on a seperate breaker?!? Is this
a nececity? it's barely used.

So for the (6-8) countertop outlets, can I put them all on one 14/3
wire? I want to fish the wire through so I can save a bit on the guys
labour.
Should I run two seperate wires to level things? so 3 outlets, one
breaker + 4 outlet, second breaker.

Lighting;
We will have 4 florecent lights and one bulb in closet area. All these
can go on a 14/2 with one switch. Correct?

Thanks for your help

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate

If you use a 12/3 cable, it has to be connected to a double pole
breaker,
but not a GFCI breaker. You can still use GFCI receptacles.

*scratches head*

I'm thinking that the shared neutral would cause issues w/ the GFCI
receps, but it's late enough in the afternoon that I can't brain too
good at the moment.

I suppose you could use an Edison ckt. to a box w/ 2x GFCI receps and
then run separate ckts. from there w/o issue, but you'd still need a
240V breaker. I'm thinking that you would *have* to run separate
12/2s from there. (ASSuming more than two receps in the kitchen,
which isn't a completely crazy assumption.)

nate

Personally, I prefer to use GFCI receptacles at every counter top
location,
to keep any fault problems localized, they're certainly cheap enough these
days. But if you wanted to do it with just 2, you run the circuit to a
large
junction box, install one GFCI there, with 2- 12/2 tails out to the next
locations. One tail off the load of that GFCI and one sharing the neutral
and the second circuit, which you run into another box, where you locate
the
second GFCI, with a 12/2 tail out, off of it's load

Ah, that would work, but I sense a philosophical incongruity with that
plan... why attempt to localize ground faults but an overload kills
both circuits?

** When things are wired properly, overloads are pretty rare, while ground
faults and ground fault anomalies are not. I can't tell you how many service
calls I've done where the GFCI outlet in the garage caused the master
bathroom outlet to go dead. I make a living locating these kind of issues,
so I'm not really complaining, but it's pretty distasteful for a customer to
have to pay for a service call to have some remote GFCI reset

Personally I would still pull 2x 12/2 all the way to the box unless
there was a *real* long run.

** You probably would, unless you did this professionally, for a living


Based on the OP's mention of having to add "a second panel" I would
probably put a 60A or 100A subpanel right near the new kitchen and
then use individual circuits from there.

nate

** I probably would as well, but with the price of copper today, you kind of
have to weigh the cost of one big feeder against a few small cables

N8N wrote:

If it is a kitchen, you will need 2x 20A circuits minimum for the
countertops which means 12AWG wire. Also they need to be GFCI
protected so you can't use an Edison circuit, unless you use a 240V,
20A GFCI breaker @ the panel which kind of defeats the purpose of
having two circuits (that is, if one trips, they all go dead, as
opposed to pulling two separare 20A 120V ckts.on separate breakers
where if you trip one the other is unaffected) and is probably more
expensive than the normal practice of using regular 20A breakers and a
GFCI recep @ the first box on each circuit.

nate


You could still use GFCI receptacles with a 20A Edison circuit. (Don't
know if it would be a good idea, just saying it would work) At the
first box, put a GFCI on one leg with a 12-2 cable going out the LOAD
terminals to feed half the downstream outlets. At the second box, do
the same thing with the other leg. (if that's too complicated, use a
junction box before the first outlet to split the circuit in two.)

The only real advantage is the reduced voltage drop if it's a long run
back to the breaker box.

-Bob

bob haller wrote:
This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

If your getting permits for all this?

Future inspections by health authorties etc?

Space in main panel for expansion?

If OP has a handy knowledgable friend to help him you could do the
electrical yourself and learn something while you at it


I wonder if putting a little 100A subpanel in the new kitchen would be
worth the trouble? Instead of running 5 or 6 or 7 new circuits all
the way back to the main panel, run one bigass aluminum cable. Then
lots of short runs from the new box.

-Bob

On Apr 21, 4:46*pm, zxcvbob wrote:
bob haller wrote:
This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

If your getting permits for all this?

Future inspections by health authorties etc?

Space in main panel for expansion?

If OP has a handy knowledgable friend to help him you could do the
electrical yourself and learn something while you at it

I wonder if putting a little 100A subpanel in the new kitchen would be
worth the trouble? *Instead of running 5 or 6 or 7 new circuits all
the way back to the main panel, run one bigass aluminum cable. *Then
lots of short runs from the new box.

-Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Personally I would spend the bucks for copper, and mnimize voltage
drops on my side of the meter

Paying extra for copper is a one time event. Small in comparision with
a new kitchen

On Apr 21, 1:52*pm, Joe wrote:
On Apr 20, 2:49*pm, cln wrote:

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.
snip

Whoa there...
You may be setting yourself up for a real problem. Consider this
scenario: you get the work done, the bake shop has some success and a
reporter from your Daily Tattler does a nice article in the Homemakers
section of the paper. People at City Hall notice and find there is no
business permit, state sales tax number, permits for any of the home
modifications (maybe excepting electrical, hopefully), food service
permit, updated tax assessment, and numerous other ordinance
violations. Guess what might happen next.
All of this may not matter if it's just a hobby, but if not, then it
would be wise to sit down with the family lawyer and set up an S
Corporation and go through the usual steps of setting up a business.

An S corporation doesn't do anything to solve getting a business
permit, collect state sales tax , permits, updated tax assessment
or numerous other possible ordinance violations. There are
plenty of small businesses that are sole proprietorships.


Renting some commercial space is easy these days with the business
climate as poor as it is.

Renting commercial space has always been easy. The problem is
what it costs and the improvements one has to put in to make it
into what one needs. Plus, if the business goes kaput, a lot of
what you put into any commercial space is gone. But you still
may be stuck with a 3 or 5 year lease.

And also he never said the wife is opening a bake shop.
For all we know, she could be
baking some cakes for monthly church suppers or cub scout
bake sales. Few people would set up an S corp for that.



Tangling with bureaucrats is never fun because they nearly always
prevail.
I will pass on your original question because there are some good
opinions already posted here.
Joe

On Apr 21, 6:39*pm, "
wrote:
On Apr 21, 1:52*pm, Joe wrote:





On Apr 20, 2:49*pm, cln wrote:

My wife has ventured into cake baking and we are building a second
kitchen in a unfinished part of the basement. I did the framing but I
draw the line at electrical work so I will be getting this done by a
professional.
snip

Whoa there...
You may be setting yourself up for a real problem. Consider this
scenario: you get the work done, the bake shop has some success and a
reporter from your Daily Tattler does a nice article in the Homemakers
section of the paper. People at City Hall notice and find there is no
business permit, state sales tax number, permits for any of the home
modifications (maybe excepting electrical, hopefully), food service
permit, updated tax assessment, and numerous other ordinance
violations. Guess what might happen next.
All of this may not matter if it's just a hobby, but if not, then it
would be wise to sit down with the family lawyer and set up an S
Corporation and go through the usual steps of setting up a business.

An S corporation doesn't do anything to solve getting a business
permit, collect state sales tax , permits, updated tax assessment
or numerous other possible ordinance violations. *There are
plenty of small businesses that are sole proprietorships.

Renting some commercial space is easy these days with the business
climate as poor as it is.

Renting commercial space has always been easy. *The problem is
what it costs and the improvements one has to put in to make it
into what one needs. *Plus, if the business goes kaput, a lot of
what you put into any commercial space is gone. *But you still
may be stuck with a 3 or 5 year lease.

And also he never said the wife is opening a bake shop.
* For all we know, she could be
baking some cakes for monthly church suppers or cub scout
bake sales. * Few people would set up an S corp for that.



Tangling with bureaucrats is never fun because they nearly always
prevail.
I will pass on your original question because there are some good
opinions already posted here.
Joe- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well if its a small baking for others it might be better to gut and
upgrade the existing kitchen. Make it a real showplace adds
significant value to the home without generating zoning issues

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
On Apr 21, 4:46 pm, zxcvbob wrote:
bob haller wrote:
This discussion brings up some (interesting) issues

Running a business from your home

Installing a second kitchen, in many areas thats not allowed, because
it makes your home 2 residences

If your getting permits for all this?

Future inspections by health authorties etc?

Space in main panel for expansion?

If OP has a handy knowledgable friend to help him you could do the
electrical yourself and learn something while you at it

I wonder if putting a little 100A subpanel in the new kitchen would be
worth the trouble? Instead of running 5 or 6 or 7 new circuits all
the way back to the main panel, run one bigass aluminum cable. Then
lots of short runs from the new box.

-Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Personally I would spend the bucks for copper, and mnimize voltage
drops on my side of the meter

Paying extra for copper is a one time event. Small in comparision with
a new kitchen

There wouldn't be any more voltage drop with aluminum than there would be
with copper