We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

On Feb 1, 9:14*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. *Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. *Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? *How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? *I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. *While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

Credit checks cost a little money but can help eliminate bad apples.
Actually talking to the previous landlord is important also. They may
be reluctant to say anything bad about tenants but you mignt learn
something. It is better to leave the place empty for a month or two
rather than just grabbing money from the first person who comes
along. Beware of people who talk too much or tell you lots of stuff
that has nothing to do with your problem. They are often blowing
smoke as a distraction.

On 2/1/2011 9:14 AM, Robert Green wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.



Might help to talk to the sheriff, or whomever does evictions...may know
some loopholes, history. Check the local codes for rentals. Get a good
application that requires job and housing history and take a personal
look at where they have lived. Gotta be careful of stuff that implies
discrimination, as that can include family size or ages of kids. Lease
sometimes can limit number of people who reside, as can some building
codes. If you have a network of friends or church members, they might
steer reliable applicants. Attorney advice? Advertised as being
worthwhile, but I am a doubter ) Just doing a google search on a name
sometimes turns up news of arrests or suits.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How
do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


For the reasons you fear, I had decided a few years ago against buying some
rental property. From my experience, with other people's rental properties,
you have two ends of the spectrum. You have low end sec 8 low lifes trashing
your property, or you have high end legally savvy dirt bags living in the
place rent free while you spend piles of money on lawyers trying to evict
them. I think that in a lot of the more "liberal" states, the laws are
designed to protect the offender and few to protect the evil, greedy
landlord, so my best advice would be to find tenants via friends in the real
estate business who are willing to "illegally" screen them for you.

On Feb 1, 9:14*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. *Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. *Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? *How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? *I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. *While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


Robert:

Here is a question that you will probably not be able to answer:

What jurisdiction was that case you saw on People's Court from?

Different laws apply in different states -- People's Court takes cases
from ALL over the place...

Now to address your specific concerns within the law:

Nothing REQUIRES you to accept Section 8 housing vouchers, if it
concerns you so much don't accept that as a form of rental payment
and then the situation you saw on that TV show won't apply to you...

You should have your home thoroughly inspected by the local AHJ
for any violations prior to ever even inviting potential tenants over
to
view the place...

Address any deficiencies listed on the inspector's report... Then
have a re-inspection done where you are given a clean bill of
health which you would keep on file in the event of any future
disputes... (it isn't a bad idea to have the rental unit reinspected
by the AHJ between every new tenancy...)

Then you will document EVERYTHING about the house by taking
pictures with a camera that uses film... Make sure that the camera
prints the date in the exposure... These pictures will be used if
there is a dispute between you and your first tenant about the
condition of things at a later date... (You will need to do this
before
every new tenancy and be sure to keep the pictures and negatives
in case you need to use them later on in a dispute...)

Periodic inspections during the tenancy will alert you to damages
being done by the tenant which can either be addressed at once
if a code compliance issue, or you could confront the tenant at
the end of one lease year about the damages... At any rate,
never extend a lease from one year to the next without bringing
in an independent inspection firm to go through a house you
are renting and getting a report from them on the condition of
the home... Effect any repairs that are necessities -- again
have it reinspected so that you have a piece of paper created
by a 3rd party which states your home is in good condition...

Now damages done to your property by people who checked
out through your background and credit check process can be
addressed by having a thoroughly and well thought out lease
contract which is reviewed by a licensed lawyer in your state
prior to ever putting a tenant's name on it... Then it is a very
good idea to have the lease signed in the presence of a notary
public rather than having "witnesses" sign... A notary records
the identification information in their log book of every person
whose signature they officiate -- that is a non-interested 3rd
party record which could be subpoenaed in the event of a
later dispute...

The terms of your lease should describe the premises being
rented, the amenities offered, the responsibilities of the
tenants and any rules they must follow (this should include
complying with the minimum cleanliness standards that
your local health department requires as well as not storing
extra disabled cars on your property, etc...) and the process
which must be followed by the tenant to report some sort
of malfunction or failure of some aspect of the rental unit
which would impact its habitability...

You must learn and follow the eviction procedures for your
jurisdiction... Having the lawyer who consults on the
legality and specific verbiage of your lease contract can
instruct you on that process... It begins with an official
demand letter which is served upon your tenant by a
constable who will certify that it was delivered and return
a sworn statement to that effect stating that the tenant
is x-number of days delinquent in payment of rent... It
is important to initiate this action no later than 15 days
after non-payment of rent and to keep sending new
notices for every month the tenant is in non-payment
since after you have your tenant served with a "notice
to quit" (the precursor to an eviction process) it can
take three to six months depending on how busy your
local housing courts are to file an eviction proceeding
against your tenant and obtain a judgment against them
which can be enforced by the constable/sheriff who can
physically remove the tenant and the tenant's possessions
from your property after the court grants an eviction...

All of this sort of stuff costs money, but you need to
protect yourself and your property... Cases in civil court
are won or lost by evidence (documentation) and the better
your evidence (from disinterested 3rd parties) the more
persuasive it can be... DO NOT EVER RELY on your word
against the tenants -- that hardly ever works out in totality
for one side or the other...

If you feel you do not possess the skills to be a landlord,
find a property management company who will act in
your place on this issue and grant them a power of attorney
to act on your behalf (especially if you are going to be
moving far enough away so that you can not report to
the property in a period of a few hours to approve expensive
emergency repairs and then inspect them as they are
being completed or just after they were completed) as
many things must be done and that 3rd party (property
manager) needs to be able to enter into contracts and
order services on your behalf in order to properly operate
your rental unit...

It all boils down to CYA and knowing what your legal
responsibilities are as a landlord under the law in your
area... If you are not sure as to either of those things
don't rent any property until you have learned what you
need to do... Otherwise it will bite you on your ass later
on HARD and you could be out a lot of money or end up
with a useless damaged rental unit which requires very
expensive repairs in order to be in a rentable condition...

~~ Evan

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How
do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

There's not really a hell of a lot you can do, and it depends on the
locality, so you may be better or worse.

If a person even has one piece of mail addressed to them at an address, they
have proof of legal tenancy even if they are not on the lease. It then
becomes a legal matter, and that process is lengthy and costly. I own
vacation rentals, and the laws are a little better, but not too much. What
I did with one was to pull the AC breaker, claiming it was inoperative and
that I didn't have the money to pay to have it fixed, and they left without
trashing the place. We get $1,000 deposit, so have a little leverage. A
house has to be habitable, and that is the responsibility of the owner, but
who knows how long repairs take. It is purely a civil matter, so the police
won't do anything. And if they take you to court because there isn't any
water or heat, you can counter that they aren't paying rent so you have the
money to fix it. And if they aren't paying rent, what are you going to
lose? If the house is nice, in a nice neighborhood, or close to business or
conventions or other attractions, you may want to consider it as a vacation
rental. You get a month's mortgage or more for a week's stay. Contact me
if you need further information.

Steve

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:14:55 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote Re Bad Tenants:

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out?

In liberal cities/states like San Francisco, NYC, Chicago you can't
prevent them from trashing the place and living rent free. The answer
is as simple as that. Unless you have a lot of rental units so that
your "good" units can carry the "bad" ones for a couple of years, you
take a bad hit. I've seen it several times.

Bottom line: stay were you are until you can sell the house.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

clipped
conventions or other attractions, you may want to consider it as a vacation
rental. You get a month's mortgage or more for a week's stay. Contact me
if you need further information.

Steve


We had short-term renters in our beach-area neighborhood in
Florida...great for college kids to gang up and drink for a week. It
was violation of local code, but was not enforced. Great way to ****
off the neighbors.

On 2/1/2011 9:14 AM, Robert Green wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.


Sure, and you can turn on the evening entertainment and news program and
see houses burned to the ground.


Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

Don't rent to section 8 tenants.


How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.


I would say you are overthinking this. Millions of folks rent properties
without issues. Use common sense and rent to folks you can check out.


I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
clipped
conventions or other attractions, you may want to consider it as a
vacation
rental. You get a month's mortgage or more for a week's stay. Contact
me
if you need further information.

Steve


We had short-term renters in our beach-area neighborhood in
Florida...great for college kids to gang up and drink for a week. It was
violation of local code, but was not enforced. Great way to **** off the
neighbors.

So, were they there on business, or for a convention?

Duh.

Steve

"George" wrote

Don't rent to section 8 tenants.

That can buy you a boatload of new problems with the feds.

Steve

On Feb 1, 8:14*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. *Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. *Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? *How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? *I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. *While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

What kind of area is it, what are the people like. I rent apartments
everyday, your area determines what you get. But I demand married
couples, both work, no smoking and refrences. Houses are hard to rent
because of cost.

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:24:11 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote Re Bad Tenants:


"George" wrote

Don't rent to section 8 tenants.

That can buy you a boatload of new problems with the feds.

Another good reason to avoid doing residential rentals. If you really
feel compelled to get into real estate do commercial.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Robert Green wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling
in this down market while we rent in some of the places we're
thinking of retiring to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific
Heights" where a bad tenant who knows all the tricks of staying in a
place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had
managed to stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by
using a loophole that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8
housing if there are code violations. Every time he was about to get
evicted, he just broke something to forestall the eviction process,
eventually plugging all the sinks with rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations?
How do you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their
way out? I know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly
beforehand, but even so, people can have no record of evil behavior
but still turn evil. While I'd probably NOT rent to any Section 8
tenants, I could easily see someone losing their job or some other
such tragedy and so decide they wanted to live in my house rent-free
for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

Bummer.

I rented out my house to the Consul General of the Dominican Republic. One
Saturday, I get a call at 7:00 a.m.

"Mr Spitwheetle?"
"Um, yes."
"This is Senora Pedro. I wanted to tell you the fire, she is out."
"Fire?"
"Si, but there was mucho smoke."
"Smoke?"
"And der is zee hole in zee roof."
"HOLE?"
"We appreciate it fixed soon like."
"IN THE ROOF?!"
"Gracias. Good bye."
(click)
.....

****ers kept a vat of boiling oil on the stove in case they wanted a tasty
snack - like a banana. The crap caught fire and the exhaust fan
flame-throwered it to the roof!

Oh well. I eventually sold the house to a hippie who decided to commit
suicide via the gas log-lighter and a garden hose snaked to the bedroom. He
woke up a few hours later and decided to light a joint.

-----
Anyway...

I see ads on Craigslist for people moving out of a home the don't or no
longer own selling everything that can be removed with a screwdriver: doors,
toilets, dishwasher, etc.

If the eviction procedures are too cumbersome or tenant-friendly in your
jurisdiction, you may have to resort to extra-legal or quasi-legal
maneuvers.

* Are any of the utilities in your name? If so dig up the water service (or
whatever) under the guise of "enhancing" or "replacing" it. Take your time.
* Repaint the kitchen while they're there. Repaint the bedroom. Leave the
drop-cloths at home.
* Wait until they've gone for the day (weekend would be better). Unlock the
door. Put an ad on CL (using a beard to post it from the local library -
they have cameras): "Had to leave the state 'cause my ex-wife is after me.
Everything in the house if free! 1111 Main Street. First come, first serve!"
* Send 'em a gift for being such nice tenants. A fire truck at 3:00 a.m. is
appropriate. Use a disposable cell phone (like the other terrorists).
* Can you collect (or buy) a LOT of field mice?
* Can you squirt Lock-Tite in the door locks? (Goddamn neighborhood kids,
always pranking somebody!)

The above should get you started. If you need more suggestions, don't
hesitate to ask.

On 2/1/2011 3:24 PM, Steve B wrote:
wrote

Don't rent to section 8 tenants.

That can buy you a boatload of new problems with the feds.

Steve



Understood, but knowing a place welcomes section 8 drives away other
potential tenants. Most landlords don't TRY to get section 8 tenants
(unless they haven't been burned yet), but if the complex or houses are
starting to show their age, section 8 soon becomes their bread and butter.

Standard disclaimer- not all section 8 tenants are bad. Some are merely
going through a rough patch, and don't throw wild parties, shack up with
drug dealers, and trash the place. An actual married couple is usually
pretty safe, if both have jobs.

--
aem sends...

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How
do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.



I don't do section 8. If they don't pay their rent it takes 23 days to get
them out. If they are paying and I don't want them there anymore it takes
33 days to get them out.

Here you simply serve them with a notice to pay or vacate or a notice to
vacate. The judge does the rest. There are no valid reasons for not paying
your rent. The judge doesn't even listen to the excuses.

Colbyt

wrote in message
m...
On 2/1/2011 9:14 AM, Robert Green wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of
retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt
us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed
to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a
loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks
with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations?
How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While
I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.



Might help to talk to the sheriff, or whomever does evictions...may know
some loopholes, history. Check the local codes for rentals. Get a good
application that requires job and housing history and take a personal
look at where they have lived. Gotta be careful of stuff that implies
discrimination, as that can include family size or ages of kids. Lease
sometimes can limit number of people who reside, as can some building
codes. If you have a network of friends or church members, they might
steer reliable applicants. Attorney advice? Advertised as being
worthwhile, but I am a doubter ) Just doing a google search on a name
sometimes turns up news of arrests or suits.

That's a good idea, although I wonder in this day and age if asking the
sheriff any questions doesn't get you into some damn terrorist database! We
are in a college town and have very strict limits on the number of unrelated
family members living together as well as many other things. One very bad
thing is that code violations are charged to the property and I can get
stuck with some pretty hefty fees if I don't get timely notices.

I've started talking to a neighbor who's rented out her house on occasion
and she's been burned repeatedly by renters who know how to use the strict
rules as a club. Her advice is very much like yours - learn all the shall
nots, will nots and can nots and make sure you account for them in the
lease.

The ways she got burned pretty much parallel all of the tricks I've seen
pulled on the various TV court (arbitration, really) shows. Today there was
another one. A Section 8 renter claimed that broken windows, punched doors
and dirty carpets were "like that" when she got the place. That state (NJ,
IIRC) had strict time and format limits (and fines) for landlords who
withheld damage deposits. Fortunately, although neither side had meaningful
photos, the landlord had a Section 8 property pre-rental inspection report
that found those items to be new (she had receipts for new carpeting) so the
judge threw the deadbeat tenant out.

Well, forewarned is forearmed. Lots of research to do. Maybe even spend a
day at the courthouse when they are hearing evictions. That could scare me
straight into leaving the house vacant while we tour the retirement areas of
the country. We really want to be in a natural disaster free zone, having
had a lifetime's share of hurricanes, floods and most recently, tornadoes
and earthquakes. At some point, rebuilding your life from scratch loses its
novelty value. )-" With all these drastic changes in the weather, it's hard
to say where the best places to live are anymore.

--
Bobby G.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of
retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt
us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed
to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a
loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks
with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations?
How
do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While
I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


For the reasons you fear, I had decided a few years ago against buying
some
rental property. From my experience, with other people's rental
properties,
you have two ends of the spectrum. You have low end sec 8 low lifes
trashing
your property, or you have high end legally savvy dirt bags living in the
place rent free while you spend piles of money on lawyers trying to evict
them. I think that in a lot of the more "liberal" states, the laws are
designed to protect the offender and few to protect the evil, greedy
landlord, so my best advice would be to find tenants via friends in the
real
estate business who are willing to "illegally" screen them for you.

You raise a good point. On the daily court shows, there seems to be exactly
the two ends of the spectrum you describe. There's also a third class - the
honest beef about what wear and tear is worth. I've yet to see a landlord
and tenant agree on that. The worst ones are those that know they can do a
hell of a lot of damage that they can never be held accountable for. I want
to try hard to eliminate them from the candidate pool and failing that, have
some sort of way to feed 100,000 bees into the heating system by remote
control and force them out! From what I see, it's pretty painful to have to
pay the mortgage for a bunch of deadbeats who are destroying the property
while they game the system. Leads a lot of landlords to engage in illegal
self-help. There has to be some sort of legal "self-help" that works.

What if the place becomes condemned and the local government then is in the
role of forcing them out? It just seems so bizarre that so many people seem
to be able to get away with freeloading. Apparently a foreclosure notice of
any kind seems to be a "rent no longer required" notice to some tenants,
even if it was placed there in error.

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:55:34 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was thinking of something remote controlled, like a kill switch for the
furnace or something similar. Something that would make staying in the
home, not paying rent unpalatable. Would it make sense to keep the
utilities in our name and pass them through so that we could cut them off,
or does cutting off a deadbeat's electricity boomerang back on the landlord?

Put all utilities in the tenant name.

If they go all stupid, don't spend a bunch of money of ways to get
them out. Just take the front door off, frame and all. Explain you
have to order a custom made Mahogany door from Belize.

In article , Oren wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:55:34 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was thinking of something remote controlled, like a kill switch for the
furnace or something similar. Something that would make staying in the
home, not paying rent unpalatable. Would it make sense to keep the
utilities in our name and pass them through so that we could cut them off,
or does cutting off a deadbeat's electricity boomerang back on the
landlord?

Put all utilities in the tenant name.

If they go all stupid, don't spend a bunch of money of ways to get
them out. Just take the front door off, frame and all. Explain you
have to order a custom made Mahogany door from Belize.

How about if utilities are in landlord's name and the lease specifies
that utilities are responsibility of the landlord?

Oops, the furnace had a transformer burn out about a week into January,
and the replacement one has a "lead time" of 2 weeks or a month.

Preferably, the lease specifies that the tenant is not allowed to
perform modifications and repairs to items regulated by building or
housing-unit-rental codes. (my words).

Furthermore, I have seen leases requiring that tenant must not use a
heat source other than landlord-provided heating system for home heating.

My experience in delivery jobs suggests to me that problem tenants
disproportionately tend to have a problem with indoor temperature lower
than 70's F.
--
- Don Klipstein )

"Caesar Romano" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:24:11 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote Re Bad Tenants:


"George" wrote

Don't rent to section 8 tenants.

That can buy you a boatload of new problems with the feds.

Another good reason to avoid doing residential rentals. If you really
feel compelled to get into real estate do commercial.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

I guess vacation rentals is a form of commercial real estate. It definitely
pays good.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
Read up and prepare.
Learn how to care for a friend.
Download the book.
http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 05:59:56 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In article , Oren wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:55:34 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was thinking of something remote controlled, like a kill switch for the
furnace or something similar. Something that would make staying in the
home, not paying rent unpalatable. Would it make sense to keep the
utilities in our name and pass them through so that we could cut them off,
or does cutting off a deadbeat's electricity boomerang back on the
landlord?

Put all utilities in the tenant name.

If they go all stupid, don't spend a bunch of money of ways to get
them out. Just take the front door off, frame and all. Explain you
have to order a custom made Mahogany door from Belize.

How about if utilities are in landlord's name and the lease specifies
that utilities are responsibility of the landlord?


Not me. Not to be trapped by un-paid utility bills. They pay their own
bills and not lean on me for a safety net. (no longer a landlord, btw)

Oops, the furnace had a transformer burn out about a week into January,
and the replacement one has a "lead time" of 2 weeks or a month.

Oops, a hundred crazy felons break windows out of the cell block. Nope
not in our budget this year. Maybe next year we get them fixed, if
the budget allows for it.

Preferably, the lease specifies that the tenant is not allowed to
perform modifications and repairs to items regulated by building or
housing-unit-rental codes. (my words).


Su why did you change this door special order item? Um, wild sex
with my girl and she broke the door.

Furthermore, I have seen leases requiring that tenant must not use a
heat source other than landlord-provided heating system for home heating.

My experience in delivery jobs suggests to me that problem tenants
disproportionately tend to have a problem with indoor temperature lower
than 70's F.

Cut the front door out with a HF sawzall. You can change minds of the
tenants.

On Feb 1, 9:14*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. *Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. *Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? *How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? *I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. *While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

As a code enforcement officer, I suggest to owners that the
rental contract identify them (the owner or representative) as
the responsible party for the replacement of the HVAC filter.
And that they be very clear about that and the other elements
of the contract at rental time.
On a certain day of the month, at a specific time, the filter will
be changed by the owner. (15th of the month, at 7PM).
Tenants can be there if they want. And even though checking
the smoke detector function is a tenant responsibility, I suggest
doing that at the same time as the filter, and being very obvious
about the monthly documentation.
Satisfies Landlord-Tenant law, and puts the owner/representative
in the unit for a condition awareness once a month.
And if a prospective tenant balks at the very idea of you doing it
instead of them (I have seen incredibly dirty filters), you can count
that you may have just dodged that one.
Also, be very wary of people that are ready/willing/having to
move in months of bad weather.
And even if you don't live there, you are still a neighbor. Several
owners in my assignment area have a small sign, like twice the
size of a business card, on the storm door facing out. That says
"If anyone sees problems with grass, trash, or vehicles at this
property, call Property Manager at........." If a neighbor knows
that the owner is able to be contacted instead of trying to ignore
all issues but collecting the rent, my agency is less likely to be
getting the complaint.

Just suggesting.















as

clipped

Well, forewarned is forearmed. Lots of research to do. Maybe even spend a
day at the courthouse when they are hearing evictions. That could scare me
straight into leaving the house vacant while we tour the retirement areas of
the country. We really want to be in a natural disaster free zone, having
had a lifetime's share of hurricanes, floods and most recently, tornadoes
and earthquakes. At some point, rebuilding your life from scratch loses its
novelty value. )-" With all these drastic changes in the weather, it's hard
to say where the best places to live are anymore.

--
Bobby G.



Don't know where you will find an area free of natural disasters...if
there is one, then man-made disasters probably make up for what nature
missed ) My neighborhood in Florida was largely retirees, of course.
When the old folks die off, they tend to be replaced by rather useless
children...kids who live off parents tend to jump into inherited
property, as opposed to kids who have their own stable life. I guessed
that 80% of my neighbors had alcohol and/or drug problems. Numerous
trust-fund babies. I have no problem with folks having wealth, but
there is a definite group of utterly worthless people who have always
lived off their parents and have never made their own way...so, a fancy
address doesn't mean they haven't had multiple DUI's (lawyered-up,
thanks to mommy and daddy), drug use/selling, etc. Prescription drug
use was epidemic, and I believe the county had two or three hundred
deaths last year from rx drug od's. I wouldn't buy property anywhere in
Florida nowadays. There are still plenty of snow-birds who own condos
that are rarely used or are rented short-time...condos with non-resident
owners are hell-holes because managing is "not my job".

I moved back to Indiana, and there are some great buys...have looked at
a couple of old homes with really great bones that need to be updated.
Also lots of small, starter homes. All foreclosures or HUD owned. Just
had news of another local layoff of 200 or more people from one of the
larger employers, so things aren't fixed yet.

I think employment and housing ref's would be very important, and then
trust you gut. I'm thinking if one advertises a rental that it must
include that requirement to help avoid discrimination nonsense.

Robert Green wrote the following:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


I've read all the other responses.
The one thing I would recommend is to get in touch with a real estate
rental agency.
Let them do the selection and take care of the rent collection.
They take a percentage of the monthly rent that they set, so the higher
the rent, the greater the percentage.
You won't have to check on the house occasionally since the agent will
do that too.
Besides, they are up on the laws.


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

Some random feedback, without having read the other responses: I am both
a tenant and a landlord, and the idea that the tenant/landlord
relationship must be adversarial is nonsense. Bad tenants are easy to
find, so are good ones. I'm a fantastic tenant, and I've got great
tenants. Nothing is on paper. Gentlemen don't need paper.

You here the nightmare stories, because those are the ones that are
supposedly noteworthy.

What is your financial situation? (a question for you to ponder, not
publicly answer) Around here, housesitting is common. Property owner
gets a hyper-responsible person living in and watching over the house,
and the sitter gets to pay his rent with something other than cash
money. If you don't need the money, it's better than letting the house
sit empty for extended periods.

Another option, if you live in a city that attracts tourists or
traveling businessmen, is the "vacation rental." Your place must be
immaculate, but you'll get motel suite rates for it, making a "month's
worth" of rent if you rent it out two weekends per month. You can
sub-contract the management, cleaning, etc. to people or agencies that
specialize in vacation rentals.

On 2/2/2011 9:28 AM, willshak wrote:
Robert Green wrote the following:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of
retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had
managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a
loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there
are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations?
How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but
even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


I've read all the other responses.
The one thing I would recommend is to get in touch with a real estate
rental agency.
Let them do the selection and take care of the rent collection.
They take a percentage of the monthly rent that they set, so the higher
the rent, the greater the percentage.
You won't have to check on the house occasionally since the agent will
do that too.
Besides, they are up on the laws.


In Florida, realtors are starving...in our condo, they would rent to
ANYONE. The one anyone was an alcoholic woman, with teen daughter, who
brought home homeless people to drink with. She trashed a very nice
condo..no money to sue her for.

On 2/2/2011 9:28 AM, willshak wrote:
Robert Green wrote the following:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of
retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had
managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a
loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there
are code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations?
How do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but
even so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


I've read all the other responses.
The one thing I would recommend is to get in touch with a real estate
rental agency.
Let them do the selection and take care of the rent collection.
They take a percentage of the monthly rent that they set, so the higher
the rent, the greater the percentage.
You won't have to check on the house occasionally since the agent will
do that too.
Besides, they are up on the laws.



Ask the percentage, before they start filling out the forms. Sometimes,
market-dictated rent minus their cut, doesn't leave enough to pay the
mortgage and insurance. All depends on how nice the house is, and how
short the local rental property supply is for people who don't want to
(or can't) buy their own place.

I've known a couple people that did it anyway, out of desperation, and
ended up selling the house cheaply a year later, because the place was
still costing them money. IMHO, if you can't rent it out for at least,
oh, 130% of your fixed expenses, you are better off selling and getting
the loss over with (assuming you are not so upside down it would wipe
you out, of course.)

--
aem sends...

On 2/1/2011 8:14 AM, Robert Green wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

You can hire a property management company to handle the rental for
you, including dealing with evictions. They will tell you what
processes they use to screen renters and show you sample rental
agreements. If you'd rather not go that route, you should find some of
the online forums for people who invest in and rent out rent
properties, such as the SDCIA http://sdcia.websitetoolbox.com You can
join these forums and get advice from experienced landlords.

You will, of course, have to make background checks prospective
renters, including credit, criminal histories, rental histories,
references. Verify their current employment and income, and confirm
their prior rental histories - call the landlord, don't just take the
applicant's word for it. It's common for crooked types to give you a
fake landlord, usually a friend of theirs - so check the property and
confirm with the owner of record that the applicant really had rented
from them. If you can, inspect their current home. If it's a dump, you
know they'll treat your home the same way.

Do a face-to-face interview and look for anything that raises flags,
such as dilated or red eyes, track marks, lying about small things,
changing their story, repeated protestations of honesty, failing to
answer certain questions. Use your gut instincts. You won't catch them
all, but you'll spot some of them.

Put a clause in the agreement outlining who, and only who, is allowed
to reside in the home. You don't want a situation where you discover
too late that the couple who signed the lease turned it over to their
spoiled kid and all his frat buddies, nor do you want lowlifes renting
out every square yard in the house to their friends.

If you do have to evict, a strategy suggested by several landlords is
to bribe the tenant to leave asap. You and they know they can drag
things out, and you don't want them to do any (additional) damage in
the meantime. So you phrase it as a service to them: you gotta evict
them, but you know it won't be easy for them to find a new place right
away. You are willing to "help out" by paying them a relocation fee
(usually two-three hundred bucks) to get their stuff out within 24
hours. You will meet them and pay them cash as they vacate. Lowlifes
find it hard to resist cash. Don't get worked up about having to pay
them to leave when the law's on your side; you have to view the bribe
as a cost of business. You're protecting your property from (further)
damage.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...


That could scare me
straight into leaving the house vacant while we tour the retirement areas
of
the country. We really want to be in a natural disaster free zone, having
had a lifetime's share of hurricanes, floods and most recently, tornadoes
and earthquakes. At some point, rebuilding your life from scratch loses
its
novelty value. )-

Let us know if you find someplace, my wife and I have been wondering where
it might be.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...

We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Maybe talk to some property management companies and ask about their record
of dealing with problem tenants. Using such a company will leave you with a
smaller return on the property, but if they know what they're doing the
security might be worth it. You could also look at putting the property
under the control of something like a revocable trust or even form a LLC to
own and rent the house, putting some insulation between you and potential
problems.

Or join an outlaw motorcycle gang, and make sure your tenants know it, just
to discourage bad behavior. ;~)

On Feb 2, 9:13*am, "Robert Green" wrote:

Good advice. *Credit checks will be a must, but that just weeds out the
already bad people, not the ones that are "ripening" on the vine. *(-:

So true about distraction. * We're thinking of finding someone competent to
do their own minor maintenance in exchange for a break on the rent, although
there are plenty of good reasons not to do that . . .

--
Bobby G.


Right, the biggest reason to NOT ALLOW a tenant to do "minor
maintenance"
is because you are allowing that person to decide what gets maintained
and
how it will be repaired...

Might get stuff fixed, but you will often find that the work might not
be up to
your standards... Too much liability with rentals if substandard work
is done
and causes a problem later on to not have fully licensed and insured
trades
workers doing repairs so you are making sure to CYA...

~~ Evan

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...


"Robert Green" wrote in message
...


That could scare me
straight into leaving the house vacant while we tour the retirement
areas
of
the country. We really want to be in a natural disaster free zone,
having
had a lifetime's share of hurricanes, floods and most recently,
tornadoes
and earthquakes. At some point, rebuilding your life from scratch loses
its
novelty value. )-

Let us know if you find someplace, my wife and I have been wondering where
it might be.

God, Mother Nature, Mexican drug cartels, criminal mismanagement and just
plain entropy have all significantly shortened a lengthy list of places we
talked about 20 years ago as being good places to retire. Aside from
natural disasters, we would like to avoid a place that decides that retirees
are now its only source of income and begins taxing them into poverty. That
process is well underway in a number of places. )-: It won't be long until
some corporate shill starts complaining that retirement savings are poison
and are keeping the economy from growing by keeping money "locked up" and
not "flowing freely."

--
Bobby G.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:55:34 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was thinking of something remote controlled, like a kill switch for the
furnace or something similar. Something that would make staying in the
home, not paying rent unpalatable. Would it make sense to keep the
utilities in our name and pass them through so that we could cut them
off,
or does cutting off a deadbeat's electricity boomerang back on the
landlord?

Put all utilities in the tenant name.

Yep, that seems to be the way to go for a number of reasons.

If they go all stupid, don't spend a bunch of money of ways to get
them out. Just take the front door off, frame and all. Explain you
have to order a custom made Mahogany door from Belize.

I suspect that would put me at risk for paying for all the mink stoles, flat
screen TVs and bling the tenant would claim were stolen as a result of my
doorectomy. Now if I cleverly planted a solenoid that would cause the door
frame to fall free by remote control revealing carefully faked termite
damage I could claim they had to leave while the house was being bombed.
Nah - too much trouble. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In article , Oren wrote:
On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:55:34 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I was thinking of something remote controlled, like a kill switch for
the
furnace or something similar. Something that would make staying in the
home, not paying rent unpalatable. Would it make sense to keep the
utilities in our name and pass them through so that we could cut them
off,
or does cutting off a deadbeat's electricity boomerang back on the
landlord?

Put all utilities in the tenant name.

If they go all stupid, don't spend a bunch of money of ways to get
them out. Just take the front door off, frame and all. Explain you
have to order a custom made Mahogany door from Belize.

How about if utilities are in landlord's name and the lease specifies
that utilities are responsibility of the landlord?

Oops, the furnace had a transformer burn out about a week into January,
and the replacement one has a "lead time" of 2 weeks or a month.

Preferably, the lease specifies that the tenant is not allowed to
perform modifications and repairs to items regulated by building or
housing-unit-rental codes. (my words).

It seems half the hard work of becoming a landlord is finding an air-tight
lease that covers every contingency without being so long and onerous that
no one would sign it. Fortunately, modern youngun's are used to signing
thirty page legalese-infested contracts without reading them, so maybe I'll
slide by. (-:

Furthermore, I have seen leases requiring that tenant must not use a
heat source other than landlord-provided heating system for home heating.

That sounds like an excellent clause considering the sources of ignition my
Dad used to find when he was doing forensic engineering work. We literate
types don't realize that people without even a HS education don't know about
a lot of the things we take for granted. Every year we have several fatal
house fires and CO poisonings from just those "other" heat sources you note
should be banned by contract. The problem, as I see it, is how does a
remote (or even local) landlord know that the tenant has stopped paying his
gas bill and is running kerosene heaters or even trash fires in a oil drum?

My experience in delivery jobs suggests to me that problem tenants
disproportionately tend to have a problem with indoor temperature lower
than 70's F.

A very interesting observation.

--
Bobby G.

"Oren" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Cut the front door out with a HF sawzall. You can change minds of the
tenants.

You're joking, I am sure, but you did remind me of why I bought my first gun
and moved from my first apartment. It was a 300 pound guy slamming himself
against the front door, breaking a hinge, shouting out "I am going to GET
you Joe!" (My name's not Joe, FWIW.) It took the police 30 minutes to
respond as I wondered how long the door would hold. The next day I bought a
..380 Beretta I nicknamed "Sergeant."

I suppose I could advertise via nym on Craigslist that I looked like
Jennifer Lopez and I loved having simulated break-in sex . . . nah, that
could backfire in any number of horrible ways . . . (-:

--
Bobby G.

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

You can't do that. Don't tamper with electric or gas or water. I
like cutting off the cable idea though. Also, non paying tenants will
not move because of no heat or electric, they will call the housing
authority.

Yes, but they should be shooting themselves in the foot if the utility
company itself shut off the gas and power. Then the house might be
condemnable and the authorities would be responsible for getting them out.
That's something I'll need to find out from the local authorities. What
happens if the tenants "go dark?" (or dork, for that matter!)

Don't let your tenants keep getting away with bad behaviour. If it
violates your terms of lease, throw them out sooner than later. Once you
cut them slack they will take advantage. Be nice, but very firm.

I suppose that's true. It's a job that might call for being more of a
hardass than I can be. I was once a renter and temporarily in some bad
financial straits. I tend to be too sympathetic to sob stories.

You may wish to find some company to manage the property for you.
They know the ropes and since you will be far away, double so.

Yes, it certainly might be good to start with a management company for the
first year to see what the potential problems are and to learn the rental
ropes.

--
Bobby G.

"jim" wrote in message
news:31ae9b9a-b53e-4b98-99dd-

stuff snipped

I owned and rented a 2 apartment home in the GTA. The basement tenants
complained of water dripping from the ceiling in the livingroom area.
This was a constant issue for him - not a one off. Upon investigation
the east indian family renting upstairs had a tarp on the floor, 2
swimming pools filled which contained rice patties. As well in one of
the bedrooms there was what I can only consider to be a commercial
deep fryer - no vent / ceiling driipping with grease. This rental
agreement indicated 3 people (wife, husband and kid). In one bedroom
there was a 3 three teir x 2 of hammocks. Soon after that I got out of
the rental business.

Is that Greater Toronto or Greater Tehran (two names suggested by Google!)?
Wait, I see CA in your email addy so it must be Toronto.

Seriously, though, when I first moved here there were 17 people in a similar
house across the road. My house had been inhabited by a family with 11 kids
(and ONE bathroom). We have strict limits on the number of occupants in the
local housing because it's a college town. The landlord across the way said
the toilet bowl kept coming loose from the floor because the tenants, from a
third world country, would stand on the rim and squat when they used the
toilet. Different cultural norms, I guess.

When I was in college, I worked for the defunct Washington Star as a police
reporter. I'd follow cops around with my scanner and camera. I got to see
plenty of very low end living situations. I've seen bathtubs used as
toilets, zoos with animal feces everywhere, needles, pools of vomit, dead
animals, shrines of all sorts, collections of anything you can think of,
refrigerators full of dead animals, newspapers stacked to the ceiling. One
hoarder that was on the news recently required 7 trucks to carry away the
possessions she had acquired over 20 years in one small house.

Yes, renting your house is not for the faint of heart and it seems obvious
now that inspections, whether monthly or more, are a necessary "smart move"
to prevent the place from turning into a slice of Southeast Asia or worse.

Thanks for your input!

--
Bobby G.

"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Feb 1, 9:14 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations? How
do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.


Robert:

Here is a question that you will probably not be able to answer:

What jurisdiction was that case you saw on People's Court from?

Actually, they always mention the location because, as you note, the laws
concerning rentals vary wildly from state to state and city to city. This,
IIRC, was in NJ.

Different laws apply in different states -- People's Court takes cases
from ALL over the place...

Agreed.

Now to address your specific concerns within the law: Nothing REQUIRES you
to accept Section 8 housing vouchers, if it concerns you so much don't
accept that as a form of rental payment and then the situation you saw on
that TV show won't apply to you...

Are you sure about that? I thought you could get charged with housing
discrimination if you refuse a Section 8 rental.

You should have your home thoroughly inspected by the local AHJ
for any violations prior to ever even inviting potential tenants over
to view the place...

An excellent idea. This last case was decided in favor of the landlord
BECAUSE the Section 8 law requires a pre-rental inspection by their
inspectors. Those records indicated the windows were not broken and the rug
was brand new and contradicted the lying tenant's assertions otherwise. An
independent 3rd party inspection carried great weight with the judge. I
assume it does with most judges/arbitrators.

Address any deficiencies listed on the inspector's report... Then
have a re-inspection done where you are given a clean bill of
health which you would keep on file in the event of any future
disputes... (it isn't a bad idea to have the rental unit reinspected
by the AHJ between every new tenancy...)

I've always relied on pictures and video to prove the condition of things I
rented or borrowed. It seems like your method is a much greater guarantee
of "acceptance" by a judge in landlord/tenant court. Good idea!

Then you will document EVERYTHING about the house by taking
pictures with a camera that uses film... Make sure that the camera
prints the date in the exposure... These pictures will be used if
there is a dispute between you and your first tenant about the
condition of things at a later date... (You will need to do this
before every new tenancy and be sure to keep the pictures and negatives
in case you need to use them later on in a dispute...)

I've always done this - with expensive rental tools, when I rented a POD
storage unit (now outlawed by the local government!), etc. Cuts down on the
"he said/she said" sort of disputes. On the People's Court case that
started this ball rolling, the tenant had a few worthless pictures, but it
was clear she had also adjusted the date between shots, documenting things
that couldn't have happened on those dates. The judge managed to catch it,
though. I wonder how many other judges would have.

Periodic inspections during the tenancy will alert you to damages
being done by the tenant which can either be addressed at once
if a code compliance issue, or you could confront the tenant at
the end of one lease year about the damages... At any rate,
never extend a lease from one year to the next without bringing
in an independent inspection firm to go through a house you
are renting and getting a report from them on the condition of
the home... Effect any repairs that are necessities -- again
have it reinspected so that you have a piece of paper created
by a 3rd party which states your home is in good condition...

I think that's excellent advice, Evan. Thanks.

Now damages done to your property by people who checked
out through your background and credit check process can be
addressed by having a thoroughly and well thought out lease
contract which is reviewed by a licensed lawyer in your state
prior to ever putting a tenant's name on it... Then it is a very
good idea to have the lease signed in the presence of a notary
public rather than having "witnesses" sign... A notary records
the identification information in their log book of every person
whose signature they officiate -- that is a non-interested 3rd
party record which could be subpoenaed in the event of a
later dispute...

It's amazing the number of low-lifes who claim "I never signed that!"
Another good idea.

The terms of your lease should describe the premises being
rented, the amenities offered, the responsibilities of the
tenants and any rules they must follow (this should include
complying with the minimum cleanliness standards that
your local health department requires as well as not storing
extra disabled cars on your property, etc...) and the process
which must be followed by the tenant to report some sort
of malfunction or failure of some aspect of the rental unit
which would impact its habitability...

Yes, finding the best lease might take a while. It's also why I might be
tempted to go with a management company for the first year.

You must learn and follow the eviction procedures for your
jurisdiction... Having the lawyer who consults on the
legality and specific verbiage of your lease contract can
instruct you on that process... It begins with an official
demand letter which is served upon your tenant by a
constable who will certify that it was delivered and return
a sworn statement to that effect stating that the tenant
is x-number of days delinquent in payment of rent... It
is important to initiate this action no later than 15 days
after non-payment of rent and to keep sending new
notices for every month the tenant is in non-payment
since after you have your tenant served with a "notice
to quit" (the precursor to an eviction process) it can
take three to six months depending on how busy your
local housing courts are to file an eviction proceeding
against your tenant and obtain a judgment against them
which can be enforced by the constable/sheriff who can
physically remove the tenant and the tenant's possessions
from your property after the court grants an eviction...

Gack. The six months part I definitely DO NOT LIKE. I'll have to check in
with the local housing folks to see how long it takes to get an average
eviction and if they have any words of wisdom for me about protecting my
rights.

All of this sort of stuff costs money, but you need to
protect yourself and your property... Cases in civil court
are won or lost by evidence (documentation) and the better
your evidence (from disinterested 3rd parties) the more
persuasive it can be... DO NOT EVER RELY on your word
against the tenants -- that hardly ever works out in totality
for one side or the other...

I did computer support for a big DC law firm for 10 years and my dad did
forensic investigation work, If there's anything I know, it's how to make a
civil case. Everything you've suggested is right on the mark!

If you feel you do not possess the skills to be a landlord,
find a property management company who will act in
your place on this issue and grant them a power of attorney
to act on your behalf (especially if you are going to be
moving far enough away so that you can not report to
the property in a period of a few hours to approve expensive
emergency repairs and then inspect them as they are
being completed or just after they were completed) as
many things must be done and that 3rd party (property
manager) needs to be able to enter into contracts and
order services on your behalf in order to properly operate
your rental unit...

I have a very good and knowledgeable neighbor I can depend on for doing some
of that. Fortunately, with electronic cameras and the net, you can get a
detailed report from half a world away within minutes. There's certainly a
lot to think about before becoming a landlord.

It all boils down to CYA and knowing what your legal
responsibilities are as a landlord under the law in your
area... If you are not sure as to either of those things
don't rent any property until you have learned what you
need to do... Otherwise it will bite you on your ass later
on HARD and you could be out a lot of money or end up
with a useless damaged rental unit which requires very
expensive repairs in order to be in a rentable condition...

Something I profoundly wish to avoid!

Thanks for all your input on this subject. It has been very educational.

--
Bobby G.

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
We've been thinking of renting our current home rather than selling in
this
down market while we rent in some of the places we're thinking of
retiring
to. Unfortunately, movies like "Pacific Heights" where a bad tenant who
knows all the tricks of staying in a place without paying rent, haunt
us.

Yesterday I saw a 'People's Court' episode where a deadbeat had managed
to
stay, rent-free, in a Section 8 rental for three years by using a
loophole
that says a tenant can't be evicted from Section 8 housing if there are
code
violations. Every time he was about to get evicted, he just broke
something
to forestall the eviction process, eventually plugging all the sinks
with
rags and flooding the place.

How can you drive a bad tenant out from a rental in such situations?
How
do
you prevent them from completely trashing the place on their way out? I
know that tenants should be checked out thoroughly beforehand, but even
so,
people can have no record of evil behavior but still turn evil. While
I'd
probably NOT rent to any Section 8 tenants, I could easily see someone
losing their job or some other such tragedy and so decide they wanted to
live in my house rent-free for as long as they could get away with it.

I'll entertain all solutions, even extra-legal ones (as long as I can
implement them without getting caught!).

--
Bobby G.

There's not really a hell of a lot you can do, and it depends on the
locality, so you may be better or worse.

If a person even has one piece of mail addressed to them at an address,
they
have proof of legal tenancy even if they are not on the lease.

Yes, in watching these cases play out on TV, it's clear that once a tenancy
has been established, even tenuously, all sorts of "protections" for the
tenant come into play.

It then
becomes a legal matter, and that process is lengthy and costly. I own
vacation rentals, and the laws are a little better, but not too much.
What
I did with one was to pull the AC breaker, claiming it was inoperative and
that I didn't have the money to pay to have it fixed, and they left
without
trashing the place. We get $1,000 deposit, so have a little leverage.

Yes, I would assume the thought of losing $1,000 makes even the most
determined house trasher stop and think whether it's worth it. The AC
breaker idea is an interesting one, and since it's outside the house, I
wouldn't have to enter to deactivate it. I'll keep that in mind.

A
house has to be habitable, and that is the responsibility of the owner,
but
who knows how long repairs take. It is purely a civil matter, so the
police
won't do anything. And if they take you to court because there isn't any
water or heat, you can counter that they aren't paying rent so you have
the
money to fix it. And if they aren't paying rent, what are you going to
lose? If the house is nice, in a nice neighborhood, or close to business
or
conventions or other attractions, you may want to consider it as a
vacation
rental. You get a month's mortgage or more for a week's stay. Contact me
if you need further information.

It's in Maryland, just outside of DC, so there's potential for vacation
rentals as it's close to the Metrorail. Unfortunately, from what I've been
able to tell from the County website, they are oriented toward tenant, not
landlord, protection. It may turn out that the political climate is just so
unfavorable to landlords that we'll either get a house sitter or leave it
empty as we travel.

--
Bobby G.