On Aug 25, 7:06*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 04:46:19 -0400, aemeijers wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:47:13 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
"More than half of young people lack the skills they need to maintain
their homes, with many relying on their parents to carry out basic
tasks, a survey suggested today.
"Around 50 per cent of people aged under 35 admitted they did not
know how to rewire a plug, while 54 per cent did not know how to
bleed a radiator and 63 per cent said they would not attempt to put
up wallpaper, according to Halifax Home Insurance."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Do-Not-likely-

youre-35--Survey-finds-young-people-DIY-dunces-rewire-plug.html?
ITO=1490#ixzz0xZu365qC







Or, in the current market, if a faucet starts dripping, walk away
from your home and buy another.

*I have advocated for years that HS junior or senior year needed a
course called 'stuff you need to know in the real world'. One semester
of stuff like how to own and operate a checking account/credit card,
get a consumer loan, not get bent over at the car dealer, etc. The
other semester of basic mechanical and home repair tasks, like how to
change a tire, how to check oil, how to not get bent over at the
repair shop, how to do basic household repairs, and how to know when
to attempt it yourself vs. when you should call a tradesman (and not
get bent over by him either.)

Well, parents obviously ain't passing on these skill sets any more,
assuming they ever had them.

They used to call that "shop" and "home EC"

Perhaps in your part of the world. In the schools I attended, Home Ec
was cooking and sewing, and shop was Wood Shop and Metal Shop.

Home ec was the same at mine, although we had separate "design and
communication" (the bit where you got to draw house plans) and "design
and realisation" (the bit where you got to make towel hooks and cut your
fingers off) courses - and I'm not sure if "shop" was ever really in use
in UK schools.

(in all seriousness, I think the first time I heard 'shop' I assumed it
was some sort of business course to do with buying and selling things :-)

cheers

Jules- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, that would be my association too. :-)

"aemeijers" wrote

I was, of course, referring to the unwashed masses out there, not the AHR
regulars. I should have made that clear.
:^/

--
aem sends...

No matter, my son does not know what end of a screwdriver to use, nor does
he want to learn. Fortunately, he makes a lot of money because he'd rather
pay someone to do that sort of thing for him.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


"aemeijers" wrote

I was, of course, referring to the unwashed masses out there, not the AHR
regulars. I should have made that clear.
:^/

--
aem sends...

No matter, my son does not know what end of a screwdriver to use, nor does
he want to learn. Fortunately, he makes a lot of money because he'd rather
pay someone to do that sort of thing for him.



Yup-- different strokes. He's kind of the opposite of Henry Ford,
who said on the witness stand when some lawyer was trying to prove he
was dumb-- 'I don't need to know that-- I hire people to tell me those
things'. [or words to that effect]

Jim

On Aug 26, 2:25*am, harry wrote:
On Aug 25, 9:55*pm, keith wrote:



On Aug 25, 2:19*pm, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:17:16 -0700, keith wrote:
The only types I've seen in the US are either big old cast iron ones in
schools etc., or little baseboard things in homes.

How about the big old cast iron ones in homes?

Never seen them, myself. I'm sure they exist (I'd love to find some of
them, too - had them at the last place I worked for. Terrible to paint,
but they look nice :-)

You'll find them in a lot of older homes, often with steam heat rather
than a hydronic system. *Some have been converted to hydronic,
though. *They're expensive as well as taking a lot of prime floor
space.

The latter don't seem
much good for anything really (and lack bleed screws).

Nope. *They have them. *You just didn't pay close enough attention.

Ours* certainly don't - there's one by my feet right now. Just pipes and
fins beneath a cover (I took the cover off to take a look).

They were installed by a moron, then. *Ours had a bleed valve on each
unit, as part of the automatic bleeder (which never worked).

* we've got a few, but no longer hooked up to anything - I'll get around
to pulling them out one day.

There should be a screw in one end.

If I could find a
good local source of the types of panel radiator typically seen in the
UK I'd likely dump the forced-air / electric baseboard setup that we
currently have in the house.

Baseboard hydronic heat is pretty nice (beats the hell out of forced
cold air, a.k.a. heap pump). *How about radiant floors?

I'm not a fan of forced air systems either - they don't seem particularly
efficient or per-zone controllable, and there's all that bulky duct-work
to mess around with (I can sort of see the attraction if you're living in
an area that also benefits from AC, I suppose)

It's cheap (installation), too. *Baseboard electric is even cheaper.
We use AC more days than heat, so yes, there is an advantage to heat
pumps here. *It's crappy heat, though.

Heard lots of good things about radiant floors, but I don't think I've
ever experienced one in use, so can't comment on how accurate the reports
are.

It's very nice in tiled bathrooms. *;-) *Radiant ceiling heat is
useless, though.

That also accounts for "rewire a plug", I believe. *Harry can tell us
whether the U.K. has/hasn't standardized on a single type of plug.

Yes, at least for domestic AC (there are a few different types designed
for less common voltages and currents, but they're not typically seen
in the home. I was quite amazed when I moved to the US just how
enormous the plugs and cables for 220V AC devices are (particularly as
they still don't have a fuse in the plug).

240V plugs are the same size as 120V; smaller than yours.

I don't recall ever seeing a 240V plug in the US that was the same size
as a 120V one - I'll have to take a better look around! (particularly as
I have a few low-power 240V things to ship over from the UK some day)

240V plugs are very similar to the 120V-20A plug, with the opposite
pin, or both, rotated. Clothes dryers and ranges have larger plugs
(30A or 50A). *The smaller ones are often found on window or through-
the-wall air conditioners. *Places were 120V 15A isn't enough.

15A 120V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...uplex-receptac...

20A 120V plug:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A 120V outlet:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...ody-duplex-rec...

15A 240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A 240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=ADE2F23EFFB...

What a waste. *We have one plug here does all of this, *cheaper and
safer.

Nonsense.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:25:34 -0700, harry wrote:
15A
120V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...decora-duplex-
receptac...

20A 120V
plug:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_1433.htm?
sid=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A 120V
outlet:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...n_narrow-body-
duplex-rec...

15A
240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_5028.htm?
sid=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A
240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_5821.htm?
sid=ADE2F23EFFB...

What a waste. We have one plug here does all of this, cheaper and
safer.

Hmm, I don't recall ever seeing anything above a 13A fuse in a UK plug,
suggesting that for anything more than that, there's a different style of
plug to use. I certainly recall running big Sun servers off something a
lot more substantial than that.

Pros and cons with plugs on both side of the Pond, really. The UK ones
are bulky (I like US wall-warts where the pins can just fold away easily
when not in use) but at least are fused, and the pins are strong. I've
seen plenty of US houses where the outlets are getting a little tired and
things are plugged into them with the pins partially exposed, which is
never a good thing.

cheers

Jules

On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:55:36 -0700, keith wrote:
How about the big old cast iron ones in homes?

Never seen them, myself. I'm sure they exist (I'd love to find some of
them, too - had them at the last place I worked for. Terrible to paint,
but they look nice :-)

You'll find them in a lot of older homes, often with steam heat rather
than a hydronic system. Some have been converted to hydronic, though.
They're expensive as well as taking a lot of prime floor space.

Yes, they are big, but I don't mind them so much because they usually
look quite ornamental.

The latter don't seem
much good for anything really (and lack bleed screws).

Nope. Â*They have them. Â*You just didn't pay close enough attention.

Ours* certainly don't - there's one by my feet right now. Just pipes
and fins beneath a cover (I took the cover off to take a look).

They were installed by a moron, then.

Yes, I can't rule that out :-) Ours are just a length of 3/4" pipe all
the way through the case with aluminum fins around it. Next to useless in
terms of heat output, but they still take up space which means you can't
put something in front of them - in which case I'd much rather panel-
style radiators which produce more heat and get it to where it's needed
faster.

I'm not a fan of forced air systems either - they don't seem
particularly efficient or per-zone controllable, and there's all that
bulky duct-work to mess around with (I can sort of see the attraction
if you're living in an area that also benefits from AC, I suppose)

It's cheap (installation), too. Baseboard electric is even cheaper. We
use AC more days than heat, so yes, there is an advantage to heat pumps
here. It's crappy heat, though.

I could handle a ground-source heat pump here (too cold in winters for
air-source to work) - I've got the land space for the coils. Problem at
the moment is the costs, but that'll come down as more people have them.

Our baseboard electric's on a load-control setup (with the propane forced-
air setup there to pick up the slack), which means it's something like 6c/
kWh to run - it works out slightly cheaper than propane, I think.

Heard lots of good things about radiant floors, but I don't think I've
ever experienced one in use, so can't comment on how accurate the
reports are.

It's very nice in tiled bathrooms. ;-) Radiant ceiling heat is
useless, though.

Yes, heat rises, so a heated ceiling's probably only useful if you're a
gecko :-)

I don't recall ever seeing a 240V plug in the US that was the same size
as a 120V one - I'll have to take a better look around! (particularly
as I have a few low-power 240V things to ship over from the UK some
day)

240V plugs are very similar to the 120V-20A plug, with the opposite pin,
or both, rotated. Clothes dryers and ranges have larger plugs (30A or
50A). The smaller ones are often found on window or through- the-wall
air conditioners. Places were 120V 15A isn't enough.

Thanks for posting those links - I'll have to look into fitting some of
those outlets when I get around to rewiring our basement.

cheers

Jules

On Aug 26, 2:25*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:25:34 -0700, harry wrote:
15A
120V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...decora-duplex-
receptac...

20A 120V
plug:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_1433.htm?
sid=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A 120V
outlet:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...n_narrow-body-
duplex-rec...

15A
240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_5028.htm?
sid=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A
240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_5821.htm?
sid=ADE2F23EFFB...

What a waste. *We have one plug here does all of this, *cheaper and
safer.

Hmm, I don't recall ever seeing anything above a 13A fuse in a UK plug,
suggesting that for anything more than that, there's a different style of
plug to use. I certainly recall running big Sun servers off something a
lot more substantial than that.

Pros and cons with plugs on both side of the Pond, really. The UK ones
are bulky (I like US wall-warts where the pins can just fold away easily
when not in use) but at least are fused, and the pins are strong. I've
seen plenty of US houses where the outlets are getting a little tired and
things are plugged into them with the pins partially exposed, which is
never a good thing.

cheers

Jules- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

On Aug 26, 1:51*pm, keith wrote:
On Aug 26, 2:25*am, harry wrote:





On Aug 25, 9:55*pm, keith wrote:

On Aug 25, 2:19*pm, Jules Richardson

wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:17:16 -0700, keith wrote:
The only types I've seen in the US are either big old cast iron ones in
schools etc., or little baseboard things in homes.

How about the big old cast iron ones in homes?

Never seen them, myself. I'm sure they exist (I'd love to find some of
them, too - had them at the last place I worked for. Terrible to paint,
but they look nice :-)

You'll find them in a lot of older homes, often with steam heat rather
than a hydronic system. *Some have been converted to hydronic,
though. *They're expensive as well as taking a lot of prime floor
space.

The latter don't seem
much good for anything really (and lack bleed screws).

Nope. *They have them. *You just didn't pay close enough attention.

Ours* certainly don't - there's one by my feet right now. Just pipes and
fins beneath a cover (I took the cover off to take a look).

They were installed by a moron, then. *Ours had a bleed valve on each
unit, as part of the automatic bleeder (which never worked).

* we've got a few, but no longer hooked up to anything - I'll get around
to pulling them out one day.

There should be a screw in one end.

If I could find a
good local source of the types of panel radiator typically seen in the
UK I'd likely dump the forced-air / electric baseboard setup that we
currently have in the house.

Baseboard hydronic heat is pretty nice (beats the hell out of forced
cold air, a.k.a. heap pump). *How about radiant floors?

I'm not a fan of forced air systems either - they don't seem particularly
efficient or per-zone controllable, and there's all that bulky duct-work
to mess around with (I can sort of see the attraction if you're living in
an area that also benefits from AC, I suppose)

It's cheap (installation), too. *Baseboard electric is even cheaper..
We use AC more days than heat, so yes, there is an advantage to heat
pumps here. *It's crappy heat, though.

Heard lots of good things about radiant floors, but I don't think I've
ever experienced one in use, so can't comment on how accurate the reports
are.

It's very nice in tiled bathrooms. *;-) *Radiant ceiling heat is
useless, though.

That also accounts for "rewire a plug", I believe. *Harry can tell us
whether the U.K. has/hasn't standardized on a single type of plug.

Yes, at least for domestic AC (there are a few different types designed
for less common voltages and currents, but they're not typically seen
in the home. I was quite amazed when I moved to the US just how
enormous the plugs and cables for 220V AC devices are (particularly as
they still don't have a fuse in the plug).

240V plugs are the same size as 120V; smaller than yours.

I don't recall ever seeing a 240V plug in the US that was the same size
as a 120V one - I'll have to take a better look around! (particularly as
I have a few low-power 240V things to ship over from the UK some day)

240V plugs are very similar to the 120V-20A plug, with the opposite
pin, or both, rotated. Clothes dryers and ranges have larger plugs
(30A or 50A). *The smaller ones are often found on window or through-
the-wall air conditioners. *Places were 120V 15A isn't enough.

15A 120V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...uplex-receptac...

20A 120V plug:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A 120V outlet:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...ody-duplex-rec...

15A 240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=ADE2F23EFFB...

20A 240V:http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal...id=ADE2F23EFFB...

What a waste. *We have one plug here does all of this, *cheaper and
safer.

Nonsense.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Why?

On Aug 25, 8:54*pm, "
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:06:40 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:50:01 -0700 (PDT), zzyzzx
wrote:

You never see kids messing with cars anymore.

A lot of them don't drive until 18 or older now as well.

My son didn't drive until he was 18; no interest. *I had to get him off is
butt when my wife got sick and couldn't drive for six months. *Taking her both
to and from work got to be a big problem with my work schedule.

That's just crazy! When I was a lass, getting your driver's license
at 16 was a much-anticipated rite of passage. We didn't even
have a car, and I lined right up to get mine.

Kids nowadays. What're'ya gonna do?

Cindy Hamilton

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...

I have advocated for years that HS junior or senior year needed a course
called 'stuff you need to know in the real world'. One semester of stuff
like how to own and operate a checking account/credit card, get a consumer
loan, not get bent over at the car dealer, etc. The other semester of
basic mechanical and home repair tasks, like how to change a tire, how to
check oil, how to not get bent over at the repair shop, how to do basic
household repairs, and how to know when to attempt it yourself vs. when
you should call a tradesman (and not get bent over by him either.)

Great idea, I'd sign the petition.

Well, parents obviously ain't passing on these skill sets any more,
assuming they ever had them.

My parents had those skills (if my dad couldn't fix it there was a good
chance he could build you a new one, he had multiple tickets in various
trades). I wish I'd paid more attention back then, I wouldn't have to be
rediscovering this stuff now.

On Aug 26, 8:50*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Aug 25, 8:54*pm, "

wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:06:40 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:50:01 -0700 (PDT), zzyzzx
wrote:

You never see kids messing with cars anymore.

A lot of them don't drive until 18 or older now as well.

My son didn't drive until he was 18; no interest. *I had to get him off is
butt when my wife got sick and couldn't drive for six months. *Taking her both
to and from work got to be a big problem with my work schedule.

That's just crazy! *When I was a lass, getting your driver's license
at 16 was a much-anticipated rite of passage. *We didn't even
have a car, and I lined right up to get mine.

Yeah, I got my license about a month after I turned 16. No point in
getting the license before my parents would let me take the car out
alone. ;-) I was one of the only males in my high school that year
to pass on the first try (the examiner liked the fact that I took the
test with a stick .

Kids nowadays. *What're'ya gonna do?

Grow 'em up and move 'em out. He's now 31 and married. ;-)

On Aug 26, 8:35*am, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 13:55:36 -0700, keith wrote:
How about the big old cast iron ones in homes?

Never seen them, myself. I'm sure they exist (I'd love to find some of
them, too - had them at the last place I worked for. Terrible to paint,
but they look nice :-)

You'll find them in a lot of older homes, often with steam heat rather
than a hydronic system. *Some have been converted to hydronic, though..
They're expensive as well as taking a lot of prime floor space.

Yes, they are big, but I don't mind them so much because they usually
look quite ornamental.

I think they're rather ugly. To each, I suppose.

The latter don't seem
much good for anything really (and lack bleed screws).

Nope. *They have them. *You just didn't pay close enough attention.

Ours* certainly don't - there's one by my feet right now. Just pipes
and fins beneath a cover (I took the cover off to take a look).

They were installed by a moron, then.

Yes, I can't rule that out :-) Ours are just a length of 3/4" pipe all
the way through the case with aluminum fins around it. Next to useless in
terms of heat output, but they still take up space which means you can't
put something in front of them - in which case I'd much rather panel-
style radiators which produce more heat and get it to where it's needed
faster.

That's what they look like, but built into one of the end elbows is a
bleeder screw. They throw out a lot of heat, as long as they're kept
clean. There is a lot of surface area on the fins and the water
should be 180-190F.

I'm not a fan of forced air systems either - they don't seem
particularly efficient or per-zone controllable, and there's all that
bulky duct-work to mess around with (I can sort of see the attraction
if you're living in an area that also benefits from AC, I suppose)

It's cheap (installation), too. *Baseboard electric is even cheaper. We
use AC more days than heat, so yes, there is an advantage to heat pumps
here. *It's crappy heat, though.

I could handle a ground-source heat pump here (too cold in winters for
air-source to work) - I've got the land space for the coils. Problem at
the moment is the costs, but that'll come down as more people have them.

The problem is that the efficiency is proportional to the temperature
rise, so the air exits at *maybe* 80F, which means a lot of air has to
be moved. It's *quite* drafty. Hydronic baseboards, OTOH, operate at
180-190F, so feel warmer without the drafts.

Our baseboard electric's on a load-control setup (with the propane forced-
air setup there to pick up the slack), which means it's something like 6c/
kWh to run - it works out slightly cheaper than propane, I think.

The thing to watch on electric baseboards is things blocking the
units. They will cause a fire. Hydronic baseboards will not, so long
drapes or furniture in front of them isn't a fire hazard.

Heard lots of good things about radiant floors, but I don't think I've
ever experienced one in use, so can't comment on how accurate the
reports are.

It's very nice in tiled bathrooms. *;-) *Radiant ceiling heat is
useless, though.

Yes, heat rises, so a heated ceiling's probably only useful if you're a
gecko :-)

Yeah, sorta. ;-)

I don't recall ever seeing a 240V plug in the US that was the same size
as a 120V one - I'll have to take a better look around! (particularly
as I have a few low-power 240V things to ship over from the UK some
day)

240V plugs are very similar to the 120V-20A plug, with the opposite pin,
or both, rotated. Clothes dryers and ranges have larger plugs (30A or
50A). *The smaller ones are often found on window or through- the-wall
air conditioners. *Places were 120V 15A isn't enough.

Thanks for posting those links - I'll have to look into fitting some of
those outlets when I get around to rewiring our basement.

If you don't have 240V appliances why bother? If you do, match their
plug.

On Aug 26, 2:34*pm, keith wrote:
On Aug 26, 8:50*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:





On Aug 25, 8:54*pm, "

wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:06:40 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:50:01 -0700 (PDT), zzyzzx
wrote:

You never see kids messing with cars anymore.

A lot of them don't drive until 18 or older now as well.

My son didn't drive until he was 18; no interest. *I had to get him off is
butt when my wife got sick and couldn't drive for six months. *Taking her both
to and from work got to be a big problem with my work schedule.

That's just crazy! *When I was a lass, getting your driver's license
at 16 was a much-anticipated rite of passage. *We didn't even
have a car, and I lined right up to get mine.

Yeah, I got my license about a month after I turned 16. *No point in
getting the license before my parents would let me take the car out
alone. *;-) *I was one of the only males in my high school that year
to pass on the first try (the examiner liked the fact that I took the
test with a stick .

Kids nowadays. *What're'ya gonna do?

Grow 'em up and move 'em out. *He's now 31 and married. *;-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"No point in getting the license before my parents would let me
take the car out alone."

Unless you had a job that paid more if you had a license.

I worked for a corner drug store in Queens, NYC that delivered
prescriptions. When I was too young to drive (legally) I delivered
them on my bicycle and got 25 cents a delivery, plus tips. The guys
who could drive were making much more money because they could
delivery many more prescriptions during their shifts. They could also
go farther - into the better neighborhoods - which usually meant
higher tips.

The drug store always had a leased car for deliveries and the older
guys taught me how to drive long before I was legal.

"What's that smell?" "Uh, that would be the clutch. Good thing it's
leased!"

As soon as I was able, I took my road test and started making the big
bucks!

Someday I'll tell you the story of a leased car too trashed to be
returned, a gallon of gas, a burning broom thrown like a spear and a
small cliff.

On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

On Aug 26, 2:42*pm, keith wrote:

.... excessive snippage, probably ...

The problem is that the efficiency is proportional to the temperature
rise, so the air exits at *maybe* 80F, which means a lot of air has to
be moved. *It's *quite* drafty. *Hydronic baseboards, OTOH, operate at
180-190F, so feel warmer without the drafts.

Actually, the drafts are a plus in my house. Say we have cabbage for
dinner. With hydronic heat, I'd have to sit in my husband's
"contrail"
all evening. With forced air, I have some hope that it'll dissipate.

All joking aside, I've been wondering for quite a while if the air
in a radiant-heat house gets stagnant. Since it's comparatively
rare here in Michigan, I've no one local to ask.

Cindy Hamilton

On Aug 26, 2:22*pm, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Aug 26, 2:42*pm, keith wrote:

... excessive snippage, probably ...

The problem is that the efficiency is proportional to the temperature
rise, so the air exits at *maybe* 80F, which means a lot of air has to
be moved. *It's *quite* drafty. *Hydronic baseboards, OTOH, operate at
180-190F, so feel warmer without the drafts.

Actually, the drafts are a plus in my house. *Say we have cabbage for
dinner. *With hydronic heat, I'd have to sit in my husband's
"contrail"
all evening. *With forced air, I have some hope that it'll dissipate.

....or spread.

All joking aside, I've been wondering for quite a while if the air
in a radiant-heat house gets stagnant. *Since it's comparatively
rare here in Michigan, I've no one local to ask.

Yes, houses can be sealed too tightly. "Contrails" aren't the worst
possible problem. At least there is warning of the danger. ;-)

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:09:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Aug 26, 2:34*pm, keith wrote:
On Aug 26, 8:50*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:





On Aug 25, 8:54*pm, "

wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:06:40 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:50:01 -0700 (PDT), zzyzzx
wrote:

You never see kids messing with cars anymore.

A lot of them don't drive until 18 or older now as well.

My son didn't drive until he was 18; no interest. *I had to get him off is
butt when my wife got sick and couldn't drive for six months. *Taking her both
to and from work got to be a big problem with my work schedule.

That's just crazy! *When I was a lass, getting your driver's license
at 16 was a much-anticipated rite of passage. *We didn't even
have a car, and I lined right up to get mine.

Yeah, I got my license about a month after I turned 16. *No point in
getting the license before my parents would let me take the car out
alone. *;-) *I was one of the only males in my high school that year
to pass on the first try (the examiner liked the fact that I took the
test with a stick .

Kids nowadays. *What're'ya gonna do?

Grow 'em up and move 'em out. *He's now 31 and married. *;-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"No point in getting the license before my parents would let me
take the car out alone."

Unless you had a job that paid more if you had a license.

If I wasn't allowed to drive alone, it didn't much matter if I had a job or
not. It was only a little over a month after my 16th birthday that my mother
decided I was ready.

I worked for a corner drug store in Queens, NYC that delivered
prescriptions. When I was too young to drive (legally) I delivered
them on my bicycle and got 25 cents a delivery, plus tips. The guys
who could drive were making much more money because they could
delivery many more prescriptions during their shifts. They could also
go farther - into the better neighborhoods - which usually meant
higher tips.

The drug store always had a leased car for deliveries and the older
guys taught me how to drive long before I was legal.

"What's that smell?" "Uh, that would be the clutch. Good thing it's
leased!"

As soon as I was able, I took my road test and started making the big
bucks!

Someday I'll tell you the story of a leased car too trashed to be
returned, a gallon of gas, a burning broom thrown like a spear and a
small cliff.

On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.

On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

On Aug 29, 5:03*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:03:58 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.

....and it is plugged into it, a couple of times.

On Aug 29, 5:43*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:03:58 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.

...and it is plugged into it, a couple of times.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micheal_Faraday
And before you mention it,lots of people have flown kites.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Aug 29, 5:43*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:03:58 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.

...and it is plugged into it, a couple of times.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micheal_Faraday
And before you mention it,lots of people have flown kites.

Yep, you're still as full of **** as ever, harry. No one here is surprised,
though.

On Aug 29, 5:56*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 29, 5:43*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:03:58 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.

...and it is plugged into it, a couple of times.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micheal_Faraday
And before you mention it,lots of people have flown kites.

Yep, you're still as full of **** as ever, harry. *No one here is surprised,
though.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nah. You're full of ****. You need to get your facts. There are no
facts to be gleaned from Hollywood.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:15:43 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Aug 29, 5:56*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 29, 5:43*pm, "
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:03:58 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:05*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:59*am, "
wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:
On Aug 26, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

There's nothing bigger for domestic use. *You can go as big as you
like for industrial sockests and three phase as well. *You don't
normally see three phase domestically, You can get enough from a
100Amp /240volt supply. Especially now with soft start motors.
There's been recent big advances on appliance efficiency so that much
less power is needed. *By law now they all have a rating displayed.
No-one buys anything now that doesn't have the highest rating.
There's a rating war on in fact.
The pins on recent 13a plugs here are insulated so that if part-
inserted nothing live is exposed. *Also the holes in the sockets are
shuttered, you need to insert the three pins to be able to get the
plug in at all.

The US considers 240 volt 100a service the bare minimum and 400a is
not uncommon. Most houses are 200a. My spa pulls 70 by itself.
11kw heat, 2.5 hp jet pump and 3/4 hp circulation pump.

Most houses have a gas supply too. That would generate another 50 or
60 Kw of heating. *We don't have exteme weather conditions either.

200A service with gas heat isn't at all uncommon here.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.

...and it is plugged into it, a couple of times.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micheal_Faraday
And before you mention it,lots of people have flown kites.

Yep, you're still as full of **** as ever, harry. *No one here is surprised,
though.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nah. You're full of ****. You need to get your facts. There are no
facts to be gleaned from Hollywood.

Yeah. You don't need to give us any more evidence that you're full of ****,
harry. You've done enough.

On Aug 30, 5:08*am, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry old son. A Brit invention from WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
Try again.

The Americans got that 20 ton vacuum tube maintenance nightmare out of
a big air conditioned room and into your pocket. (the microchip being
the technology I was talking about).

If you want to go back 60 years, I would just go back 40 and point out
who went to the moon.

Oh, that was your captive Nazi war criminal von Braun. Things seem
to have gone backwards since he died I notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_von_Braun
Before we get to how John Wayne won WW2, that was the Russians if
anybody.
Americans have always been good at buying/stealing our technology and
making money.

On Aug 30, 3:43*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:22:16 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Aug 30, 5:08*am, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry old son. A Brit invention from WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
Try again.

The Americans got that 20 ton vacuum tube maintenance nightmare out of
a big air conditioned room and into your pocket. (the microchip being
the technology I was talking about).

If you want to go back 60 years, I would just go back 40 and point out
who went to the moon.

*Oh, that was your captive Nazi war criminal von Braun. *Things seem
to have gone backwards since he died *I notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_von_Braun
Before we get to how John Wayne won WW2, that was the Russians if
anybody.
Americans have always been good at buying/stealing our technology and
making money.

Still ****ed about how the revolution came out huh?
Get over it.
Without the Americans, you would be speaking German right now ... or
Russian. If you noticed, the Soviets kept everything they took from
the Germans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You only escaped because the French helped you out. You'd have been
better off without your relvolution. (Your revolution was not about
freedom. It was so the rich could avoid paying taxes). You need to
study your own history. Not the Hollywood version. (BTW I see the
same thing has arisen again, teabaggers)
You have the world's most corrupt politicians. You have your own
dynasties based on greed. Your economy has been destroyed by your fake
democracy. You are the world's greatest exporter of terror.
The rich are still rich whilst the American worker may have have lost
his job and his home. There are no tent cities in the UK.

On Aug 30, 3:43*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:22:16 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Aug 30, 5:08*am, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry old son. A Brit invention from WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
Try again.

The Americans got that 20 ton vacuum tube maintenance nightmare out of
a big air conditioned room and into your pocket. (the microchip being
the technology I was talking about).

If you want to go back 60 years, I would just go back 40 and point out
who went to the moon.

*Oh, that was your captive Nazi war criminal von Braun. *Things seem
to have gone backwards since he died *I notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_von_Braun
Before we get to how John Wayne won WW2, that was the Russians if
anybody.
Americans have always been good at buying/stealing our technology and
making money.

Still ****ed about how the revolution came out huh?
Get over it.
Without the Americans, you would be speaking German right now ... or
Russian. If you noticed, the Soviets kept everything they took from
the Germans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

America only came into the war when the Germans declared war on the
USA after the Japanese attack on Pearl harbour. You didn't come
running to help us. You came running for help from us. Once again,
learn your history.
I don't know why you come up with all this crap when it's so easy to
check things out on the internet. Did you never go to school? You
seem exceptionally uneducated even for an American.

On Aug 30, 3:43*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:22:16 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:





On Aug 30, 5:08*am, wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry old son. A Brit invention from WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
Try again.

The Americans got that 20 ton vacuum tube maintenance nightmare out of
a big air conditioned room and into your pocket. (the microchip being
the technology I was talking about).

If you want to go back 60 years, I would just go back 40 and point out
who went to the moon.

*Oh, that was your captive Nazi war criminal von Braun. *Things seem
to have gone backwards since he died *I notice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_von_Braun
Before we get to how John Wayne won WW2, that was the Russians if
anybody.
Americans have always been good at buying/stealing our technology and
making money.

Still ****ed about how the revolution came out huh?
Get over it.
Without the Americans, you would be speaking German right now ... or
Russian. If you noticed, the Soviets kept everything they took from
the Germans- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So did you.

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700, harry wrote:
But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

To be honest I'd rather it be simple so that I can maintain it myself,
make new parts for it if I have to etc. - and keep it running pretty much
forever, rather than "forcing" some factory to provide me with some new
plastic-fantastic piece of junk.

cheers

Jules

On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:08:03 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:42:41 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

You are typing on it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sorry old son. A Brit invention from WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer Try again.

The Americans got that 20 ton vacuum tube maintenance nightmare out of a
big air conditioned room and into your pocket. (the microchip being the
technology I was talking about).

I don't think it was ever air-conditioned - if I remember right, H-Block
had four Colossi and F-Block had six, but they were in quite large rooms.
It gets quite warm during summer in the room that the modern rebuild is
in, but there's no aircon (although the false ceiling tiles can be moved
out of the way to aid heat dissipation ;-)

They weren't that much of a maintenance nightmare due to the way they ran
the valves (tubes) - and based on moving similar racks I'd probably put
the weight at around 3 tons (not that 20 vs. 3 makes much of a
difference!)

The history of computing is murky indeed, with lots of separate efforts
around the same timeframe in different parts of the world, each
contributing to the evolution. Inevitably one person or team gets credit
for an invention, but rarely is that invention a sole product of the
people who produced it.

As for ICs, if I remember right the Germans, British and Americans all
had a hand in it; again it was an evolutionary process. The first working
one was American - but drew on theories, designs, experiences and
prototypes of the Germans and Brits.

cheers

Jules

On Aug 31, 3:56*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700, harry wrote:
But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

To be honest I'd rather it be simple so that I can maintain it myself,
make new parts for it if I have to etc. - and keep it running pretty much
forever, rather than "forcing" some factory to provide me with some new
plastic-fantastic piece of junk.

cheers

Jules

Valid point. Low technology is good technology.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:57:16 -0400, against all advice, something
compelled "Ed Pawlowski" , to say:


"aemeijers" wrote

I was, of course, referring to the unwashed masses out there, not the AHR
regulars. I should have made that clear.
:^/

--
aem sends...

No matter, my son does not know what end of a screwdriver to use,


Don't you have to use both ends?



--

Howdya like that... we started playing guitar to impress the chicks and wind
up talkin' fingernails with old men.

Ray Boyce - 9.27.09

On 8/31/2010 9:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700, harry wrote:
But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

To be honest I'd rather it be simple so that I can maintain it myself,
make new parts for it if I have to etc. - and keep it running pretty much
forever, rather than "forcing" some factory to provide me with some new
plastic-fantastic piece of junk.

cheers

Jules

Like an automobile? Computerizing automobiles has been both a bane and
a blessing. If the computer completely dies, you're dead in the water
but a partial failure can put the engine into "limp home" mode and still
get you there. My older cars could be kept running with bailing
wire and duct tape and would be the transportation to have if the
country were to collapse and fancy new parts were unavailable. Think
"Road Warrior". 8-)

TDD

On Sep 1, 5:58*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 8/31/2010 9:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:





On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700, harry wrote:
But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

To be honest I'd rather it be simple so that I can maintain it myself,
make new parts for it if I have to etc. - and keep it running pretty much
forever, rather than "forcing" some factory to provide me with some new
plastic-fantastic piece of junk.

cheers

Jules

Like an automobile? Computerizing automobiles has been both a bane and
a blessing. If the computer completely dies, you're dead in the water
but a partial failure can put the engine into "limp home" mode and still
get you there. My older cars could be kept running with bailing
wire and duct tape and would be the transportation to have if the
country were to collapse and fancy new parts were unavailable. Think
"Road Warrior". 8-)

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But if you had them now could you afford to put petrol in them?

On 9/1/2010 12:42 AM, harry wrote:
On Sep 1, 5:58 am, The Daring
wrote:
On 8/31/2010 9:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:





On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:58:07 -0700, harry wrote:
But you waste most of your energy through primitive technology.

I see you're still full of **** today, harry.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Heh Heh. Tell about some front line American technolgy then.

To be honest I'd rather it be simple so that I can maintain it myself,
make new parts for it if I have to etc. - and keep it running pretty much
forever, rather than "forcing" some factory to provide me with some new
plastic-fantastic piece of junk.

cheers

Jules

Like an automobile? Computerizing automobiles has been both a bane and
a blessing. If the computer completely dies, you're dead in the water
but a partial failure can put the engine into "limp home" mode and still
get you there. My older cars could be kept running with bailing
wire and duct tape and would be the transportation to have if the
country were to collapse and fancy new parts were unavailable. Think
"Road Warrior". 8-)

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But if you had them now could you afford to put petrol in them?

You can run them on wood gas or alcohol. Hillbillies and country
boys can survive and adapt. Never discount the ingenuity of the
Redneck. 8-)

TDD

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:58:18 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote:
To be honest I'd rather it be simple so that I can maintain it myself,
make new parts for it if I have to etc. - and keep it running pretty
much forever, rather than "forcing" some factory to provide me with
some new plastic-fantastic piece of junk.

Like an automobile? Computerizing automobiles has been both a bane and a
blessing. If the computer completely dies, you're dead in the water but
a partial failure can put the engine into "limp home" mode and still get
you there. My older cars could be kept running with bailing wire and
duct tape and would be the transportation to have if the country were to
collapse and fancy new parts were unavailable. Think "Road Warrior". 8-)

Yeah, been there, done that so many times. Fixed a few faults by the
roadside which probably would have had me stranded in a more modern
vehicle.

I don't mind computerising stuff as such - but only if I can easily get
hold of the schematics, firmware code, replacement ICs etc. rather than
the computer part being treated as some unserviceable black box.

cheers

Jules

On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 07:19:28 -0500, The Daring Dufas wrote:
But if you had them now could you afford to put petrol in them?

You can run them on wood gas or alcohol.

Building a wood gasifier's on the to-do list - for stationary use though,
not to try to run a vehicle. I've got no shortage of trees around here.
More of an interesting project than to fill any real need :-)

cheers

Jules