notbob wrote:
On 2010-08-11, HeyBub wrote:
wrote:

30 years ago who would have thought the government would require a
dead man's switch on a lawn mower..

Uh, lawnmowers DO have a dead-man's switch.

Uh, perceptive readers would have realized that is exactly what the
poster was saying.

nb

I wonder what percentage of lawnmowers with deadman switches have not
had them bypassed or disabled? A few exotic magnets took care of mine
the first time I fired it up, and within a week I dug up a big cable tie
to immobilize that silly rear skirt so I could pull the mower backwards.
(How can you mow under stuff without pulling it backwards? Idiots.)

My changes will take 30 seconds to reverse once it comes time to sell or
junk the mower.

--
aem sends...

On 8/11/2010 3:00 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 11, 3:39 pm, Steve wrote:
On 8/11/2010 11:55 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Aug 11, 12:28 pm, wrote:
On Aug 11, 11:28 am, Steve wrote:

the way i understand it, the 'brake' mechanism is about $100 plus the
price of the blade it ruined. Then there's the labor and down time on
the saw. It's a worthless item, no one who uses their saw every day
would have one.

You believe that it less likely that there will be an accident if
someone uses something more? It doesn't quite work that way.

Do you have life insurance? Homeowner's insurance? Car insurance?
Ever use any of them? I'll take a stab at it and guess you've never
needed the first one...yet...but as far as the others if you haven't
used them, why do you have them?

Trot on over to rec.woodworking and ask how many people over there
have been bitten by a saw. Those are people who use saws every day.
No one gets a free pass on accidents. Not amateurs, not pros.

R

Trot on over to rec.woodworking and ask how many people over there
have been bitten by a saw.

Then ask them if they have replaced the saw that bit them with a
SawStop.

I'd be willing to bet, no woodworker worth his salt would have one of
these pieces of **** in their shop.

Well, I'd take your money, but I didn't see you put up any cash,
sailors are worth their salt, not woodworkers, and it's interesting
that you, with no firsthand experience, just a mouth and an opinion,
know all about what every woodworker would have in their shop. I'll
tell you what - why don't you post your list of the tools in your shop
and we can have all of the other manufacturer's just close their doors
so people won't waste their money buying them. Will that suit you?

If, by the remotest chance, you'd like to learn instead of just
spouting an opinion based on your imagination, remember to read then
post. The order is important.

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-saw-reviews
That's a review aggregation site and they don't make an opinion, they
just report what others' have written. Silly publications like Fine
Woodworking, American Woodworker, etc., etc. seem to like the SawStop
just fine. I'm sure they'd appreciate you posting your opinion on why
the saw is a POS and how you arrived at that conclusion. Everyone
needs a laugh now and again. Thanks.

R
Of course those publications like the saw. They got paid to put the
article there.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Aug 11, 10:23*pm, Steve Barker wrote:
On 8/11/2010 3:00 PM, RicodJour wrote:

http://www.consumersearch.com/table-saw-reviews
That's a review aggregation site and they don't make an opinion, they
just report what others' have written. *Silly publications like Fine
Woodworking, American Woodworker, etc., etc. seem to like the SawStop
just fine. *I'm sure they'd appreciate you posting your opinion on why
the saw is a POS and how you arrived at that conclusion. *Everyone
needs a laugh now and again. *Thanks.


Of course those publications like the saw. *They got paid to put the
article there.

Sigh. So, since there were a number of different manufacturers' saws,
they all paid? Whoever paid the most won top honors? And they did
that for however many magazines? Are there any other nefarious
woodworking conspiracies you'd care to share?

By your logic, any magazine that accepted advertising would be barred
from reviewing any of that manufacturer's products. That's a good
business model. Start a magazine and let me know how it works out.

R

"keith" wrote
The price will not come down until the patent runs out, in another
fifteen years or so.


As soon as someone comes up with a competing technology the patent is
useless and the price drops hard.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:10:43 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


"keith" wrote
The price will not come down until the patent runs out, in another
fifteen years or so.


As soon as someone comes up with a competing technology the patent is
useless and the price drops hard.

There is no "competing technology". He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. The patent is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. The inventor is a patent lawyer. You
don't think he's covered his bases?

Everyone trusts "technology" to cure whatever problem there is. That's why we
have the leftist morons whining for more solar and wind power.

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Caught a show called Time Warp on Discovery last night.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/time-warp/time-warp.html

Had never seen the show before. Couple of guys do extremely high speed
video of all kinds of things. 1000fps 10,000fps range.

They had the guy with the Hot Dog Saw. He actually very slowly touched the
tip of one of his fingers to the blade for the show. No cuts or blood. He
was extremely reserved on his approach to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P2aMVE0_uM

I didn't watch the whole thing. He actually sticks his finger in it? Balls!

"Steve Barker" wrote

the way i understand it, the 'brake' mechanism is about $100 plus the
price of the blade it ruined. Then there's the labor and down time on the
saw. It's a worthless item, no one who uses their saw every day would
have one.

Lee Valley has replaced saws in every store and shop with Saw Stop. Some
cabinet shops have done the same, as have some schools. If you think there
is a lot of downtime to replace a cartridge, check the downtime after a
serious accident.

Take a peek here. I was shocked at the number of accidents. Give the
average age, I'd say these were people
with experience too.
http://tablesawaccidents.com/
In 2003 the Consumer Product Safety Commission estimated that "93,880
saw-related injuries were treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms". Of
these 52,000 (55%) involved stationary saws (table saw 38,000 (73%), miter
saw 7,640 (15%), band saw 4060 (8%), and radial arm saw 2,300 (4%). (Data
summarized from: Injuries Associated with Stationary Power Saws, May 2003,
Propit Adler, Directorate for Epidemiology, Division of Hazard Analysis,
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission)

The average age of injured party was 51 years old. The average size of the
work piece was 2 ft long x 6 in wide by 1 inch depth. The vast majority of
accidents occur while ripping. There does not seem to be a correlation on
the type of blade being used at the time the accident occurred.

Oh, don't forget our friends, the lawyers
http://www.cushinglaw.net/Table-Saw-...-injuries.html
Every 9 minutes a person in the United States is injured using a table saw.
Ten people everyday suffer amputations. The impact of the injury begins
immediately and last forever.

Nice photos for the family album too
http://www.doctormahoney.com/photo_g.../table_saw.htm

On 8/11/2010 8:29 PM, aemeijers wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Hasn't that happened in England already? I mean, about knives and
scissors.


As long as they don't ban grinders, we'll do fine.

At work a few years ago, they banned opening the windows, both because
the POS HVAC system kept getting confused, and because the windows were
worn-out junk that had a habit of falling on people's fingers. They even
screwed some shut, in the wings and floors with the worst windows.

I happened to work on one of those floors. We were the techs who did the
computer stuff for the building. We all had tools. When they came around
and screwed them shut, we all shrugged and said 'whatever'. Within a
week, every last screw had vanished. It took the powers that be a couple
tries of replacing them before reality sank in.

(and yes, for the windows that kept falling down, we fabricated sticks.)


I want all tools, vehicles, consumer items, etc to be as dangerous as
possible and lawsuits for injuries outlawed. I want vehicles to explode
and burn to a pile of ash that blows away in the wind leaving little
or no trace if there is an accident. I want Darwinism to run rampant
in this country until all the dumbasses are gone or significantly
diminished. I don't know if I'll survive because they surround me. 8-)

TDD

On 8/11/2010 2:39 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
On 8/11/2010 11:55 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Aug 11, 12:28 pm, wrote:
On Aug 11, 11:28 am, Steve wrote:



the way i understand it, the 'brake' mechanism is about $100 plus the
price of the blade it ruined. Then there's the labor and down time on
the saw. It's a worthless item, no one who uses their saw every day
would have one.

You believe that it less likely that there will be an accident if
someone uses something more? It doesn't quite work that way.

Do you have life insurance? Homeowner's insurance? Car insurance?
Ever use any of them? I'll take a stab at it and guess you've never
needed the first one...yet...but as far as the others if you haven't
used them, why do you have them?

Trot on over to rec.woodworking and ask how many people over there
have been bitten by a saw. Those are people who use saws every day.
No one gets a free pass on accidents. Not amateurs, not pros.

R

Trot on over to rec.woodworking and ask how many people over there
have been bitten by a saw.

Then ask them if they have replaced the saw that bit them with a
SawStop.


I'd be willing to bet, no woodworker worth his salt would have one of
these pieces of **** in their shop.


Every carpenter I've ever met on a construction site will tie back
the blade guard on a power circular saw. They have to set it upside
down after using it. I've seen a dumbass put one down and it took
off across the room because he forgot the guard was tied back.

TDD

JimT wrote:

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Caught a show called Time Warp on Discovery last night.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/time-warp/time-warp.html

Had never seen the show before. Couple of guys do extremely high speed
video of all kinds of things. 1000fps 10,000fps range.

They had the guy with the Hot Dog Saw. He actually very slowly touched
the
tip of one of his fingers to the blade for the show. No cuts or blood. He
was extremely reserved on his approach to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P2aMVE0_uM

I didn't watch the whole thing. He actually sticks his finger in it? Balls!
My connection is too slow to watch videos. Does he come at it from top,
leading edge, or the side near the hub? The latter wouldn't frighten me
too much- friction burns would be the immediate risk.

--
aem sends...

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/11/2010 8:29 PM, aemeijers wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Hasn't that happened in England already? I mean, about knives and
scissors.


As long as they don't ban grinders, we'll do fine.

At work a few years ago, they banned opening the windows, both because
the POS HVAC system kept getting confused, and because the windows were
worn-out junk that had a habit of falling on people's fingers. They even
screwed some shut, in the wings and floors with the worst windows.

I happened to work on one of those floors. We were the techs who did the
computer stuff for the building. We all had tools. When they came around
and screwed them shut, we all shrugged and said 'whatever'. Within a
week, every last screw had vanished. It took the powers that be a couple
tries of replacing them before reality sank in.

(and yes, for the windows that kept falling down, we fabricated sticks.)


I want all tools, vehicles, consumer items, etc to be as dangerous as
possible and lawsuits for injuries outlawed. I want vehicles to explode
and burn to a pile of ash that blows away in the wind leaving little
or no trace if there is an accident. I want Darwinism to run rampant
in this country until all the dumbasses are gone or significantly
diminished. I don't know if I'll survive because they surround me. 8-)

TDD

Stupidity should be painful, but hopefully not fatal. Best cure for
industrial accidents is training, not working when tired or otherwise
impaired, and a hardass foreman that rips a new one for anyone he sees
not following safety protocols.

--
aem sends...

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
JimT wrote:

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Caught a show called Time Warp on Discovery last night.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/time-warp/time-warp.html

Had never seen the show before. Couple of guys do extremely high speed
video of all kinds of things. 1000fps 10,000fps range.

They had the guy with the Hot Dog Saw. He actually very slowly touched
the
tip of one of his fingers to the blade for the show. No cuts or blood.
He
was extremely reserved on his approach to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P2aMVE0_uM

I didn't watch the whole thing. He actually sticks his finger in it?
Balls!
My connection is too slow to watch videos. Does he come at it from top,
leading edge, or the side near the hub? The latter wouldn't frighten me
too much- friction burns would be the immediate risk.

--
aem sends...

He carefully, slowly moves his middle finger and just barely touchs the
blade like he's feeding a board but slower. Straight in. It looks to me
like, if he fed it in at the speed of shoving a board in, it would cause
more damage. But impressive anyway. He says he just feels a tickle of the
blade. No cuts or blood.

On 8/12/2010 12:50 AM, aemeijers wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 8/11/2010 8:29 PM, aemeijers wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Hasn't that happened in England already? I mean, about knives and
scissors.


As long as they don't ban grinders, we'll do fine.

At work a few years ago, they banned opening the windows, both because
the POS HVAC system kept getting confused, and because the windows were
worn-out junk that had a habit of falling on people's fingers. They even
screwed some shut, in the wings and floors with the worst windows.

I happened to work on one of those floors. We were the techs who did the
computer stuff for the building. We all had tools. When they came around
and screwed them shut, we all shrugged and said 'whatever'. Within a
week, every last screw had vanished. It took the powers that be a couple
tries of replacing them before reality sank in.

(and yes, for the windows that kept falling down, we fabricated sticks.)


I want all tools, vehicles, consumer items, etc to be as dangerous as
possible and lawsuits for injuries outlawed. I want vehicles to explode
and burn to a pile of ash that blows away in the wind leaving little
or no trace if there is an accident. I want Darwinism to run rampant
in this country until all the dumbasses are gone or significantly
diminished. I don't know if I'll survive because they surround me. 8-)

TDD

Stupidity should be painful, but hopefully not fatal. Best cure for
industrial accidents is training, not working when tired or otherwise
impaired, and a hardass foreman that rips a new one for anyone he sees
not following safety protocols.


Remember the guy who lost his finger because he stuck it in a hole in
a machine? The safety people took the idiot back to the machine and
asked him to show them what happened, the moron promptly stuck his
other finger in the same hole and lost it too! 8-)

Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed, we wind up with, well,
you know......... the whole country screwed up.

TDD

wrote
As soon as someone comes up with a competing technology the patent is
useless and the price drops hard.

There is no "competing technology". He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting
a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. The patent
is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. The inventor is a patent lawyer.
You
don't think he's covered his bases?

Everyone trusts "technology" to cure whatever problem there is. That's
why we
have the leftist morons whining for more solar and wind power.

If everyone has your negative attitude, then yes, there never will be. Give
the recent jury award for an injury, I'm sure other companies are looking
into a different method of stopping saws. No matter how complex a puzzle,
patent, or secret code may be, if one man can make it, another can break it.
Let's talk again in 3 to 5 years.

It would be like being in a public place, surrounded by homicide
bombers with bomb vests. You and I will have to stay home that day.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

I want all tools, vehicles, consumer items, etc to be as dangerous as
possible and lawsuits for injuries outlawed. I want vehicles to
explode
and burn to a pile of ash that blows away in the wind leaving little
or no trace if there is an accident. I want Darwinism to run rampant
in this country until all the dumbasses are gone or significantly
diminished. I don't know if I'll survive because they surround me. 8-)

TDD

On Aug 11, 9:02*pm, aemeijers wrote:
notbob wrote:
On 2010-08-11, HeyBub wrote:
wrote:

30 years ago who would have thought the government would require a
dead man's switch on a lawn mower..

Uh, lawnmowers DO have a dead-man's switch.

Uh, perceptive readers would have realized that is exactly what the
poster was saying.

nb

I wonder what percentage of lawnmowers with deadman switches have not
had them bypassed or disabled? A few exotic magnets took care of mine
the first time I fired it up, and within a week I dug up a big cable tie
to immobilize that silly rear skirt so I could pull the mower backwards.
(How can you mow under stuff without pulling it backwards? Idiots.)

My bet is a pretty high percentage are unmodified. I haven't seen the
need to disable the dead-man switch on mine. It easily restarts so
it's not a big deal. Mowers aren't like they were thirty years ago.
OTOH, the backwards thing is a PITA.

My changes will take 30 seconds to reverse once it comes time to sell or
junk the mower.

Why?

On Aug 12, 5:58*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote

As soon as someone comes up with a competing technology the patent is
useless and the price drops hard.

There is no "competing technology". *He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting
a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. *The patent
is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. *The inventor is a patent lawyer..
You
don't think he's covered his bases?

Everyone trusts "technology" to cure whatever problem there is. *That's
why we
have the leftist morons whining for more solar and wind power.

If everyone has your negative attitude, then yes, there never will be. *Give
the recent jury award for an injury, I'm sure other companies are looking
into a different method of stopping saws. *No matter how complex a puzzle,
patent, or secret code may be, if one man can make it, another can break it.
Let's talk again in 3 to 5 years.

You *obviously* don't understand patents. He has this one locked up
tight. It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. It has nothing to do with "attitude". Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

On Aug 12, 8:39*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 5:58*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



wrote

As soon as someone comes up with a competing technology the patent is
useless and the price drops hard.

There is no "competing technology". *He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting
a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. *The patent
is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. *The inventor is a patent lawyer.
You
don't think he's covered his bases?

Everyone trusts "technology" to cure whatever problem there is. *That's
why we
have the leftist morons whining for more solar and wind power.

If everyone has your negative attitude, then yes, there never will be. *Give
the recent jury award for an injury, I'm sure other companies are looking
into a different method of stopping saws. *No matter how complex a puzzle,
patent, or secret code may be, if one man can make it, another can break it.
Let's talk again in 3 to 5 years.

You *obviously* don't understand patents. *He has this one locked up
tight. *It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". *A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. *It has nothing to do with "attitude". *Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

Perhaps it is not so cut and dried, as you imagine.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1389013
Fifth post down.

Gass was not the first or only one to think up a saw brake, he was
just the first one to patent one and get it to market. Note the
number of patents his patent references:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...9+AND+blade%29

R

In article ,
" wrote:

There is no "competing technology". He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. The patent is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. The inventor is a patent lawyer. You
don't think he's covered his bases?

If he's a patent attorney, then he knows that a patent is literally,
legally useless until it's successfully defended in a court of law. Most
civil litigation cases are won by the party with the biggest purse for
legal expenses. Patented technology is stolen every day.

In article
,
keith wrote:

You *obviously* don't understand patents. He has this one locked up
tight. It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. It has nothing to do with "attitude". Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

Sorry, but *you* are clearly the one who doesn't understand patents. You
absolutely, positively cannot patent a "concept."

aemeijers wrote:
I wonder what percentage of lawnmowers with deadman switches have not
had them bypassed or disabled? A few exotic magnets took care of mine
the first time I fired it up....


It was the first thing I did when I put the engine on my current mower. I
use an old Snapper body (aluminum) from an era before the deadmen, so I
removed the mechanism on the engine.

Jon

" wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I could have found a way to find the extra $1800-$2000, if
I *had* to, but I didn't. The Unisaw is a good saw, and if I didn't get the
deal on the Unisaw I would have bought a Grizz for a couple of hundred less
still.

If I were shopping for a new saw, my wife would insist I buy the Saw Stop. I
wouldn't fight it too hard.

But I just struggle along with my 15 year old Unisaw.

-- Doug

On Aug 12, 9:23*am, Smitty Two wrote:
*keith wrote:

You *obviously* don't understand patents. *He has this one locked up
tight. *It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". *A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. *It has nothing to do with "attitude". *Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

Sorry, but *you* are clearly the one who doesn't understand patents. You
absolutely, positively cannot patent a "concept."

Well that makes me feel better. I had come up with The World's Best
Idea one night in a bar and wanted to patent it, and the next morning
I couldn't remember The Idea. Glad to know I didn't really lose
anything.

R

On Aug 12, 8:23*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*keith wrote:
You *obviously* don't understand patents. *He has this one locked up
tight. *It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". *A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. *It has nothing to do with "attitude". *Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

Sorry, but *you* are clearly the one who doesn't understand patents.

I worked for a large multinational for *many* years on a very active
patent review board (we reviewed around 200 patents a year). How many
patents do you hold?

You absolutely, positively cannot patent a "concept."

Absolutely false. The has the patent on a sensor connected to a saw
blade detecting a human limb activating a blade brake. *ANY* sensor
that detects human contact with the blade and activates *ANY* sort of
blade brake falls under this patent. That's a pretty damned broad
concept. Have you even read the subject patent?

On Aug 12, 8:11*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

" wrote:
There is no "competing technology". *He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. *The patent is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. *The inventor is a patent lawyer.. *You
don't think he's covered his bases?

If he's a patent attorney, then he knows that a patent is literally,
legally useless until it's successfully defended in a court of law. Most
civil litigation cases are won by the party with the biggest purse for
legal expenses. Patented technology is stolen every day.

Why don't you take your fortune and gamble it against his patent. You
will *not* win. No one else is stupid enough to try.

On 2010-08-12, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

There is no "competing technology". He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented.

I'm sure the sensing mechanism is pretty basic. Instant touch sensing
switches have been around for years. I think the real patent is on
the complex electro-mechanical circuit and mechanism that jams that
alum block into the blade before it can do any real damage. The
design of a mechanism that reacts so quickly is surely innovative and
worthy of a patent.

nb

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"notbob" wrote in message
...
On 2010-08-11, Red Green wrote:

They had the guy with the Hot Dog Saw. He actually very slowly touched
the
tip of one of his fingers to the blade for the show. No cuts or blood.
He
was extremely reserved on his approach to say the least.

I watched a video of how that saw does its thing. Doesn't it just
about self destruct to stop in time? How much does it cost to get it
back up and running again after one of its "stop" events?

nb

Less than the co-pay for a trip to the ER. The blade is ruined and a new
cartridge is in the $60 - $70 range IIRC. They are supposed to be pretty
foolproof to prevent accidental trips of the mechanism. There are lots of
fingers lost every ear, or worse, on table saws. I'd certainly consider a
Saw Stop if I was buying a new one.

Me too. Most people have no idea how truly horrific or expensive hand
injuries from power saws can be:

"Power saws may cause severe lacerations and fractures. Nerve, tendon,
vascular injury and amputation are possible as well. Fingertip injuries are
the most common with the thumb being the most commonly injured digit. An
injury sustained from a power saw could quickly and suddenly have
devastating consequences. It has been determined that a circular table saw
can sever a human forearm 6 centimeters in diameter in just 40 - 60
milliseconds depending upon the feeding power of the saw."

http://www.handctr.com/power_saw_injury_of_the_hand.htm

Losing a thumb on your dominant hand will change the rest of your life. And
not for the good.

--
Bobby G.

On Aug 12, 10:43*am, notbob wrote:
On 2010-08-12, wrote:



There is no "competing technology". *He has the IDEA of a sensor detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. *

I'm sure the sensing mechanism is pretty basic. *Instant touch sensing
switches have been around for years. *I think the real patent is on
the complex electro-mechanical circuit and mechanism that jams that
alum block into the blade before it can do any real damage. *The
design of a mechanism that reacts so quickly is surely innovative and
worthy of a patent.

You "think" wrong.

On 2010-08-12, Robert Green wrote:

Me too. Most people have no idea how truly horrific or expensive hand
injuries from power saws can be:

I was drunk and cut my finger off. Stupid!! I was at work the next
day. Quit advocating being a pussy.

nb

On Aug 12, 8:38*pm, notbob wrote:
On 2010-08-12, Robert Green wrote:

Me too. *Most people have no idea how truly horrific or expensive hand
injuries from power saws can be:

I was drunk and cut my finger off. *Stupid!! *I was at work the next
day. *Quit advocating being a pussy.

You're advocating....being stupid? Tough? Stupid and tough?
Or was notbob going for joke and no get laugh?

R

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:23:36 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:

" wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I could have found a way to find the extra $1800-$2000, if
I *had* to, but I didn't. The Unisaw is a good saw, and if I didn't get the
deal on the Unisaw I would have bought a Grizz for a couple of hundred less
still.

If I were shopping for a new saw, my wife would insist I buy the Saw Stop. I
wouldn't fight it too hard.

Yes, that's a choice. I made the opposite choice. If I had to pay $3,500 for
a saw, I probably wouldn't own one.

But I just struggle along with my 15 year old Unisaw.

My Unisaw that's one tenth that age works very well too. It works a lot
better than the SawStop I wouldn't have. ;-)

"keith" wrote

You *obviously* don't understand patents. He has this one locked up
tight. It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. It has nothing to do with "attitude". Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

I understand enough to know that patents can be gotten around. I know that
patents don't stop others from doing as they please. I know a company that
filed suit against about a dozen companies for infringing on his patent.
After 6 years, all he has to show so far is a big stack of lawyer bills.

Just because you are not clever enough to get around it does not mean that
some smart guy working in his basement will not. Sorry, but that's the way
it is. As I said, we'll talk again in a few years to see the status.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 22:04:55 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:


"keith" wrote

You *obviously* don't understand patents. He has this one locked up
tight. It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. It has nothing to do with "attitude". Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

I understand enough to know that patents can be gotten around.

Some can. Some are so basic and broad that they cannot. This one is in the
latter category.

I know that
patents don't stop others from doing as they please. I know a company that
filed suit against about a dozen companies for infringing on his patent.
After 6 years, all he has to show so far is a big stack of lawyer bills.

No courts keep people from doing what they please. If you don't think SawStop
is going to defend its patents to the death, you're nuts. They have a lock on
this one.

Just because you are not clever enough to get around it does not mean that
some smart guy working in his basement will not. Sorry, but that's the way
it is. As I said, we'll talk again in a few years to see the status.

You're simply clueless.

In article
,
keith wrote:

On Aug 12, 8:11*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

" wrote:
There is no "competing technology". *He has the IDEA of a sensor
detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. *The
patent is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. *The inventor is a patent lawyer.
*You
don't think he's covered his bases?

If he's a patent attorney, then he knows that a patent is literally,
legally useless until it's successfully defended in a court of law. Most
civil litigation cases are won by the party with the biggest purse for
legal expenses. Patented technology is stolen every day.

Why don't you take your fortune and gamble it against his patent. You
will *not* win. No one else is stupid enough to try.

No thanks, I don't need to steal someone else's ideas. I'm intelligent
and creative enough to come up with my own.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:03:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article
,
keith wrote:

On Aug 12, 8:11*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,

" wrote:
There is no "competing technology". *He has the IDEA of a sensor
detecting a
person's digits tripping a brake that stops a blade, patented. *The
patent is
pretty basic to the problem at hand. *The inventor is a patent lawyer.
*You
don't think he's covered his bases?

If he's a patent attorney, then he knows that a patent is literally,
legally useless until it's successfully defended in a court of law. Most
civil litigation cases are won by the party with the biggest purse for
legal expenses. Patented technology is stolen every day.

Why don't you take your fortune and gamble it against his patent. You
will *not* win. No one else is stupid enough to try.

No thanks, I don't need to steal someone else's ideas. I'm intelligent
and creative enough to come up with my own.

Nice dodge.

In article
,
keith wrote:

On Aug 12, 8:23*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*keith wrote:
You *obviously* don't understand patents. *He has this one locked up
tight. *It has nothing to do with "technology", rather "function". *A
better brake wouldn't get around the patent, nor would a better
detection device. *It has nothing to do with "attitude". *Sorry, but
that's the way it is.

Sorry, but *you* are clearly the one who doesn't understand patents.

I worked for a large multinational for *many* years on a very active
patent review board (we reviewed around 200 patents a year). How many
patents do you hold?

You absolutely, positively cannot patent a "concept."

Absolutely false. The has the patent on a sensor connected to a saw
blade detecting a human limb activating a blade brake. *ANY* sensor
that detects human contact with the blade and activates *ANY* sort of
blade brake falls under this patent. That's a pretty damned broad
concept. Have you even read the subject patent?

And its breadth is exactly what makes it illegitimate. You can write any
kind of b.s. verbiage into a patent. But it won't hold up in court. I
repeat: a patent is NOT legally binding until it has been *successfully*
defended in court.

Patent Paradox 101:

If a product's market *profit* potential is less than $10,000,000, a
patent is a waste of time and money, because you won't have the money to
defend it. If it's more than $10,000,000, others can't afford *not* to
steal it. The photocopier is the quintessential example of that. You
think Xerox lacked legal funds and expertise?

Patents are like fences, they keep honest people out. For all your
background, you don't appear to have learned some very basic
fundamentals.

But g'head, I'll give you the last word.

wrote
Some can. Some are so basic and broad that they cannot. This one is in
the
latter category.

Your opinion.



No courts keep people from doing what they please. If you don't think
SawStop
is going to defend its patents to the death, you're nuts. They have a
lock on
this one.

Of course they will defend it, just as the example I gave. Years later, the
"infringers" are doing business as usual, the patent holder is paying lawyer
fees and has recovered nothing, stopped nothing. Only winner so far is the
lawyers.




As I said, we'll talk again in a few years to see the status.

You're simply clueless.

Your small minded opinion. The future is not over yet. Lets talk later.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Aug 11, 12:55 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Aug 11, 12:28 pm, RicodJour wrote:

Trot on over to rec.woodworking and ask how many people over there
have been bitten by a saw.

Then ask them if they have replaced the saw that bit them with a SawStop.

You're missing my point, DD. The price premium is high - now. It'll
come down. The price is immaterial to the fact that it is a user-
selectable safety system that actually works, doesn't get in the way
of cuts, and is invisible in use. It's better technology.

A better question to ask over at the wreck would be, if you had a
choice of paying $2000 now and getting the tip of your finger back,
would you?

Tip of your finger if you're incredibly lucky! Anyone unlucky enough to see
how fast a radial arm saw can "walk" across a piece of lumber (usually from
starting the motor with the blade already jammed against the stock) knows
how fast it could drag your whole arm into the blade with devastating
results. A modern power saw cuts human flesh and bone like butter since
it's designed to tear through tough oak.

I often wonder why people have such a "stuck in the craw" attitude about
improvements in safety engineering? You see it all the time here. Is it a
macho thing? Is it oldsters railing at the changes in the modern world that
they feel they have no control over? Is it the massive ego of believing
they are so smart and so lucky that they are immune from accidents? Well,
no one is immune. You can only hope to reduce accidents but you can't
control when you have a stroke or a heart attack and when that safety
interlock is the only thing standing between a bad event and probably a
lethal one.

Anyone who thinks it can't happen to them should read:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/12/21/mos...ols_slide.html

Safety engineers have saved the lives and limbs of countless people. It
wasn't too long ago that a poor little girl name Peggy Swan two
neighborhoods over from me gored herself to death riding her bicycle into
the back of a 60's era Cadillac with huge (senseless, decorative only) tail
fins that got the whole ball rolling on modern safety issues. There are
stupid people and there are stupid designers. Both need education.

This is a no-brainer like consumer protection on predatory lending. Yes,
Angelo Mozillo and all the other mortgageers only ripped off the dumb
people, but tell me - are only the dumb people suffering? No, we all are.
It turned out that consumer protection equals protection of the entire
economy. Same for the guy who saws off his hand. We all pay for that.
Higher insurance rates, taxes for disability payments, workmen's comp, etc.
It seems like common sense to lower expenses, especially needless ones.
Deadman switches don't appear because one man died or almost did. It's
because decision makers have seen dozens of deaths and maimings, year after
year and feel compelled to limit those occurrences. That's why so many
Federal safety agencies are called "tombstone agencies" because they only
get into the game when the death rate from something climbs past the
ignorable point.

"In the United States, approximately 9400 children younger than 18 years
receive emergency treatment annually for lawn mower-related injuries. More
than 7% of these children require hospitalization, and power mowers cause a
large proportion of the amputations during childhood. Prevention of lawn
mower-related injuries can be achieved by design changes of lawn mowers,
guidelines for mower operation, and education of parents, child caregivers,
and children. . . . Power lawn mowers caused 22% of the amputation injuries
among children admitted to one regional level 1 trauma center"

source:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...ics;107/6/e106

All I can say is that if parents don't properly train their kids to operate
powertools (and it's clear they don't - I learned OTJ, like most of you!),
then someone has to step in, in loco parentis, to compensate. Often, that's
the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I'm a cheap SOB but I am not enough
of a skinflint that I'd wish a kid, especially doing chores or trying to
start a backyard business, the loss of their fingers or their toes, to save
$5 or $10 off a lawnmower.

--
Bobby G.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Aug 11, 12:00 pm, wrote:

... Until some weenie at OSHA or CPSC decides you need to have this

30 years ago who would have thought the government would require a
dead man's switch on a lawn mower..
I really believe that before I die they will ban sharp knives and
pointy scissors

I am the first to say that it is impossible to outlaw stupidity with
legislation, but the SawStop is simply better technology. The price
premium will come down, and so will the cost of used saws without the
brake. Everybody wins.

You would think, with more than 30,000 injuries and 3,500 amputations per
year due to table saws, that a new invention to prevent such accidents would
be welcomed. I wonder if it's just a Luddite mentality, an anti-Big
Government mentality or just plain foolishness not to want to have a safer
tool available. My friend just bought one and the greatest advantage is
that his wife doesn't go around with a knot in her stomach anymore when she
hears him fire up the blade. His opinion is that $2K is peanuts compared to
what a serious saw accident costs.

Of course, if you're a Perfect Pete who's never made a mistake or had an
accident in his life, then I guess it's a waste of money . . .

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Aug 11, 12:00 pm, wrote:
... Until some weenie at OSHA or CPSC decides you need to have this

30 years ago who would have thought the government would require a
dead man's switch on a lawn mower..
I really believe that before I die they will ban sharp knives and
pointy scissors

I am the first to say that it is impossible to outlaw stupidity with
legislation, but the SawStop is simply better technology. The price
premium will come down, and so will the cost of used saws without the
brake. Everybody wins.

You would think, with more than 30,000 injuries and 3,500 amputations per
year due to table saws, that a new invention to prevent such accidents would
be welcomed. I wonder if it's just a Luddite mentality, an anti-Big
Government mentality or just plain foolishness not to want to have a safer
tool available. My friend just bought one and the greatest advantage is
that his wife doesn't go around with a knot in her stomach anymore when she
hears him fire up the blade. His opinion is that $2K is peanuts compared to
what a serious saw accident costs.

Not all of us can afford multi-thousand-dollar table saws for occasional
use. A $500 saw would be a luxury for me, since I don't use it to make
money. I'd be a lot more inclined to throw money on an auto-stop saw if
it didn't destroy much of the saw in the process, and it was not subject
to false trips like the current one apparently is. I grew up in
construction, and saw a few bloody accidents over the years. Almost all
of them were due to user error, and in hindsight, easily avoidable. The
best bang for the buck on safety is TRAINING. I got mine from my
father, and the old master carpenters he employed. Someone who has never
used power tools, but started watching TOH and decided they want to get
into it, well, that is a problem. Short of signing up for courses at a
vo-ed center, how can they get trained? Read and understand the manual,
like Norm always says on his show? Watch a video? Go to a Saturday demo
at the Borg? I dunno. There is no way to completely idiot-proof
industrial machines.

--
aem sends...