I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my kitchen
countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via 12-2 w/ground Romex
run through my attic and down inside the wall to the outlet. Two
questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one outlet on it)
does the electrical code require a junction box between the breaker
and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it necessary to
use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and neutral in the outlet box,
or can I simply run them straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen
the connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all show the
wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground wire, but differ as to
the need for wire caps and jumpers for the other two wires.

Josh wrote:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my kitchen
countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via 12-2 w/ground Romex
run through my attic and down inside the wall to the outlet. Two
questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one outlet on it)
does the electrical code require a junction box between the breaker
and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it necessary to
use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and neutral in the outlet box,
or can I simply run them straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen
the connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all show the
wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground wire, but differ as to
the need for wire caps and jumpers for the other two wires.

Hi,
What is wire cap and jumper? You mean pig tails?

Hi,
What is wire cap and jumper? You mean pig tails?- Hide quoted text -


Yes, sorry......meant to say pig tails. Are they required for end of
circuit?

Josh wrote:

Hi,
What is wire cap and jumper? You mean pig tails?- Hide quoted text -


Yes, sorry......meant to say pig tails. Are they required for end of
circuit?

Hi,
Our kitchen has a sub panel serving it. Any how you just run end to end
straight from panel breaker to the outlet. No junction box or pig tails
needed.

"Josh" wrote in message
...
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my kitchen
countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via 12-2 w/ground Romex
run through my attic and down inside the wall to the outlet. Two
questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one outlet on it)
does the electrical code require a junction box between the breaker
and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it necessary to
use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and neutral in the outlet box,
or can I simply run them straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen
the connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all show the
wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground wire, but differ as to
the need for wire caps and jumpers for the other two wires.



No junction box is required, except for the box that the receptacle will be
in. No wire nuts required at the receptacle unless the unit you're using has
pigtails on it, instead of screw or clamp terminals

On 6/30/2010 10:43 PM spake thus:

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:55:49 -0700 (PDT), Josh
wrote:

I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my kitchen
countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via 12-2 w/ground
Romex run through my attic and down inside the wall to the outlet.
Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one outlet on it)
does the electrical code require a junction box between the
breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it necessary to
use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and neutral in the outlet
box, or can I simply run them straight to the outlet terminals?
I've seen the connections drawn both ways in reference books. They
all show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground wire,
but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers for the other
two wires.

No and no.
You can run a cable, unbroken all the way.

What he[1] said.

Just to clear up the confusion, the reason you see pigtails (jumpers)
and wire nuts used in wiring guides is that they're very useful when you
have cables both entering and exiting an outlet box, making for a lot of
extra connections. Obviously, if you only have a single cable and a
single device (GFCI outlet), you can simply wire the cable to the device.


[1] I'm ASSuming that gfretwell is a he.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 20:04:02 -0400, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
dpb typed:
Twayne wrote:
...

You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements based on the
criteria of many different organizations all pulled
together into NEC (NFPA, etc.). MINIMUM is the operative
word there. Many zoning areas management choose to
strengthen some parts of it as they see fit for the
demographics of any geographical area they serve. They use
the NEC as the basiis for their requirements and adjust it
as they require for their own specifc needs. The NEC
requirements can only be strengthened, never loosened, by
local jurisdiction.

The first part of that is sorta' true; the last sentence is
complete and utter hogwash. It appears you are the one
under a serious misconception. NEC has no standing other
than whatever whichever jurisdiction in charge choose to
give it. It is NOT law nor have any status such as that. As so, local
jurisdictions could choose to ignore it
entirely and do it all on there own or w/ some other basis
than NEC. That they don't is simply reflective that there's
no reason to reinvent the wheel in general not that there's any
inviolate mandate or law the requires it.

Wow, you guys may be pros, but you're missing a lot!

No, it is *you* who is missing a lot. Try reading.

The requirements of the
NEC cannot be ignored or loosened without case by case investigation and
approval, meaning good reason.

You're wrong (but I doubt you'll read my post any more than you read others).
The NEC has no special god-given authority. The NFPA is a *private*
non-profit company that publishes a standard that is useful for government
entities to reference in their laws. It is up to the governmental entity with
jurisdiction to include the NEC, subsets of the NEC, or other rules into *its*
laws. The laws do *not* have to include the entire NEC or any other rules.

Any loosening of the code that's possible is
included IN the NEC itself or its references. The only way to avoid NEC
adherance is to superced the entire context with another, stronger document
with adjustments in areas necessary. Somce California cites are a great
example of this.

Absolutely wrong. The cities can write whatever electrical codes they wish.
Usually they reference the NEC because it's easier and they don't have the
expertise of the NFPA. They are usually stricter that the NEC, but there is
no reason they can't be more lax. Often they reference older versions of the
NEC.

Rather than asssting in general, you choose to nit-pick and extoll the
exceptions to the rules, without regard to location or authority, and that
tells me that you are dangerous people to take advice from.

No, you're being told that you're *WRONG*, but you're too pig headed to read.

Just for grins, I took this e-mail to our local inspector's office where I
know the inspectors. We went to lunch together (we each paid our own way)
and this was the general concensus:
-- You sound like the type where intent of the requirements isn't your
strong point.
-- You are the type to cut corners, most likely.
-- Your atttudes are far from what's needed in having the client's benefit
in mind.
-- And your understanding of the NEC and how/when/where it's applied appears
to be seriously lacking IF you are in a role where they matter to the work
you do.
-- I did not know the NEC could be replaced, which they showed me in black
and white.
-- I came off as condescending and may have inspired your trollity. Yeah, I
learned a new word!

I'm sure you told them everything that was said here. Yeah, right.

As for the rest of your trollish BS and silliness, it's been deleted; not
needed for this response.

When you're wrong, you're *really* wrong.

"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 3, 7:50 am, "RBM" wrote:
"Evan" wrote in message

...
On Jul 2, 10:46 pm, "RBM" wrote:



"Evan" wrote in message

...
On Jul 2, 5:55 pm, "RBM" wrote:

"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
RBM typed:
"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.

LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct
the wiring inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

You are either weasel-wording or just outright uneducated. There IS
code
enforcement, whether you choose to recognize it or not.

You constantly tell people to call their "code inforcement office" for
answers to their electrical questions. I'm saying that there is no
code
inforcement office in my county or any neighboring counties. When
licensed
electricians do work, we have accounts with private ,certified
electrical
inspection companies.We hire them and they inspect our work. There is
no
governmental office that one can call for answers to electrical
questions,
and the private inspection companies are only going to tell a person
to
call
a licensed electrician.

LOL... So there is no possible conflict of interest there at all...

You PAY a company to inspect, would you keep paying them if they
failed your
work... LOL...

Who randomly spot checks various types of installations to be sure
that the codes are actually being interpreted and correctly applied...

Sounds to me you could shop around for an private inspection firm
which is less strict than another...

Tell me which state/county this is in so I will never stay in any
structure there, as they are not being inspected by an uninterested
party like the government...

~~ Evan

So you believe that somehow a government inspector is less likely to
become
corrupt than a private inspector? That's actually pretty funny, and very
naive. The truth is up until a few years ago my area was inspected by
one
company, in fact the original electrical inspection company, in fact the
same company that did electrical inspection for Thomas Edison. The
company
had no competition, could charge whatever they wanted, had complete
autonomy, and went bankrupt after a hundred years due to corruption and
mismanagement. The current system works much better for everyone
concerned,
but if you feel endangered by successful free enterprise, than feel free
to
not visit New York City and it's environs

Yes, that is what I believe... A local government wiring inspector
has
no financial stake in whether or not your wiring passes its
inspection...

He or she has already been paid the permit fee for the project and you
can not occupy the structure until the final permit has been signed
off
and you are granted a certificate of occupancy...

Any private anything is not subject to public oversight and has a
DIRECT
financial stake in continuing business relationships with various
electricians
who hire them to complete the inspection process... THAT is MUCH more
likely to become perverted and corrupted than a government inspector
who wasn't corrupt and looking for bribes BEFORE he took his job...
The government inspector has nothing at stake if the wiring fails
inspection,
the private company could lose business and that makes the entire
thing very suspect and a potential conflict of interest...

A government inspectors records are public property and therefore
accessible via a public records request under the FOIA law...
Private business records can only be examined by certain government
oversight officials in the course of a business audit unless they are
the objects of a subpoena which is granted during the discovery
phase of a civil lawsuit...

So PUBLIC safety in the form of certifying wiring systems as safe
is placed into the hands of a private business which has little to
no oversight and is able to keep its records private from virtually
everyone compared with a publically employed government inspector,
that is a no-brainer... You can remove the government guy by
going to the local executive authority and complaining about
the inspector's conduct and if enough people complain or the
investigation into your complaint indicates something is amiss
the inspector can be warned or fired -- it is not so easy to replace
a private business which has an almost monopoly, you have to
establish a competing business to take over...

So yeah, I vote for the public option as it is a more transparent
process and as a local taxpayer and voter I can have input into
the retention of the local government employees whose records
are public information rather than the uphill battle it would be to
have the private company produce its own documents which you
then have to use against them in court to prove your accusations...

It is naive to think that any business has anything but making
money as its primary objective... It is stupid to give a private
business total authority and control over certifying something
is safe to be used or occupied without any method of oversight
and quality control/verification that the standards are being
accurately interpreted and applied...

~~ Evan

Just for clarification, all these inspection companies, use certified
electrical inspectors. They are essentially the same people that would be
doing the inspections for the govt, if the system were arraigned that way.
Each city, town or village, authorizes whichever of these companies they
choose, make the rules for their jurisdiction, and oversee the process.
Certificates of compliance are issued, filed and become part of the
governmental records.


The final work product, the certificate of inspection and the
inspection
report become public records when they are filed with the AHJ, there
are multitudes of other documents however which don't become
public records remaining totally private and inaccessible to a FOIA
request because they are not produced by a public agency and thus
you need to ask the company to disclose its own documentation of
itself when you file a lawsuit against it...

Any piece of paper produced by a government entity not deemed
classified for a given set period of time due to reasons of ongoing
national security matters is available to view and purchase a copy
of for a nominal fee... Sometimes personally identifying information
about persons named in the reports are redacted but the documents
themselves are public and accessible...

Nothing a government employee touches during his/her employment
is private from the local executive authority (board of overseers/
supervisors/alderman/selectmen, town/city council, mayor, etc) whom
can investigate complaints... No such access is afforded to the
records
of a business whose only records that are disclosed are the final
certification paperwork... You have to trust that they are not hiding
anything in their internal files...

So RBM, if the local government is supervising this process and
overseeing the safety of the wiring how many government inspectors
do they have doing field verifications and integrity checking of the
reports being filed by the private wiring inspectors... If the govt
doesn't have anyone doing that it would be fairly easy for any
business to begin to pull the blinds on them and not have any
way for the govt people to know until stuff starts burning down
en masse...

~~ Evan


Dude, get it through your head, there are NO government inspectors. There
never have been in the NY metro area. The place is not burning down. Show me
any documented accounts that wiring in NYC is any worse than anywhere else.
With your love for almighty government, you must be a shill for Obama

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:
You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements

Wrong. The Code describes itself as "contain[ing]
provisions that are
considered necessary for electrical safety." Nowhere does
it describe itself
as a set of minimum standards. Further, the Code
specifically authorizes local
jurisdictions to waive provisions of the Code.

Of course not!, AFAIK, and it should not anyway since NEC is NOT the body
responsible for deciding what is a set of minimal requirements and what is
not. It is, however the MINIMAL requirements for the US fire and personal
safety protection requirements. It may specify say 8 conductors in a certain
box: no more than 8 in a box can be used and still pass the electrical
code. It is not possible for another body to step in and say BS, I'll allow
10, or 12, or 21! It can spec a minimal distance between objects, but as
before that distance can NOT be made less but it CAN be more!
You need to get a grip and actually think about what you're on about
before spewing misinformation to the world, in particular the type that
indicates a final word on a location's requirements can be gotten from this
newsgroup and be as good or better than going to the local controlling
authority.

What you are trying to say, and failing to do, and only bringing up
confusion for most who are not familiar wth these areas, is that the NEC
comes from a SMALL part of the NFPA - 70 I think? Not sure but if YOU don't
know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
The NEC is a set of "regulations" for protection of personnel and
property safety in electrical installations. Except for heavily more
stringent regulations, NOT weaker. Fiber-optics is one such area, but
nit-picking of that kind only serves to dillute the credibility of your own
input.
The NFPA "adopted" NEC and approved by ANSI. I almost defy you to cite
ANY local which has less stringent rules than the NEC unless the artcles
concern something that is Not Applicable to the region. You will find that
even such a case, should it exist, is NOT the end of the line and WILL have
been approved, usually by ANSI. I don't mention the other 3 because I don't
want to do your homework for you.






based on the criteria of many different organizations
all pulled together into NEC (NFPA, etc.).

Wrong. The Code is the product of *one* organization, the
NFPA.

Urban Renewals has this short, concise definition:
The accepted standard for installation of wiring and associated devices. It
is written by a panel of experts and printed by the National Fire Prevention
Association. Top of Page [Top]


Oh, then how come the NEC calls FOR the NFPA in many sections if IT IS the
NFPA sourced it? It's not uncommon at all to see things like:
"
NEC REQUIREMENT
? Either of the following listing
requirements**
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global

* Refer to NFPA 220 for definition of non-combustible Type I and II building
construction.
** Fine Print Note, Section 450.23, (B)(1) states: "Installations adjacent
to combustible material, fire escapes, or door and window openings may
require additional safeguards such as those listed in Section 450.27. It
says to go to the NFPA for DEFINITIONS, not for rules. The NEC contains the
rules.
"

The NEC is NOT the NFPA! Two different offices, two different functions in
the overall scheme of things.
Also:
NEC REQUIREMENT
? Either of the following listing
requirements**
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global
"
Why are those NEC requirements and not NFPA if you actually know what you're
talking about.
And then:
"
NEC OPTIONS*
? Both liquid confinement, and either
of the following listing requirements
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global
or
? Both liquid confinement and auto
extinguishment
or
? Vault per NEC 450, Part III
* No additional safeguards are required if one or more of Exceptions 1-6 of
Section 450.26, Oil-Insulated Transformers Installed Indoors apply.
"


"




MINIMUM is the operative word
there. Many zoning areas management choose to strengthen
some parts of it as they see fit for the demographics of
any geographical area they serve. They use the NEC as the
basiis for their requirements and adjust it as they
require for their own specifc needs. The NEC requirements
can only be strengthened, never loosened, by local
jurisdiction.

Wrong; as noted above, local jurisdictions are explicitly
permitted under the
Code to waive portions of it if they choose. Further, the
Code itself has no
legal force unless adopted as law by a particular
jurisdiction -- and nothing
at all prevents a jurisdiction from adopting only part of
the Code as law,
should they choose to do so.

The above is so far off base as to make me wonder whether you anything but a
passing familiarity with NEC, NFPA/NEC, ANSI, UL and the other associated
bodies. You CAN build anything you want to, but trying to sell or
installing it, besides negating insurances, is definitely a legal
requirement of any jurisdictional body.
A good example of not having NEC labelling can be found in California:
Without the LosAngeles "Orange" sticker for instance, you aren't going to
sell anything legally. And guess what that entails? Yup; NEC or UL or one of
several other MOU's they carry/allow. But not a single one of them is going
to be less stringent than the NEC Is. NYS is another one, Chicago was going
to something like the "sticker" thing, but I don't know if they have done
so.

So let's get real and talk about the subjects the OP's ASK about, not hair
splitting and silliness such as has gone on thru these last couple days. If
I've bruised your precious ego, that's your problem not mine.

HTH,

Twayne`
HTH

It would help a lot more if it were true. Perhaps you
should stick to giving
advice on topics you actually know something about, if
there are any. This
isn't one of them.

In ,
RBM typed:
"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
RBM typed:
"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...



,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a
junction box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They
all show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the
ground wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps
and jumpers for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.




LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector
conduct the wiring inspections and sign off on the
permits... ~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

You are either weasel-wording or just outright uneducated.
There IS code enforcement, whether you choose to recognize
it or not.

You constantly tell people to call their "code inforcement
office" for answers to their electrical questions. I'm
saying that there is no code inforcement office in my
county or any neighboring counties. When licensed
electricians do work, we have accounts with private
,certified electrical inspection companies.We hire them and
they inspect our work. There is no governmental office that
one can call for answers to electrical questions, and the
private inspection companies are only going to tell a
person to call a licensed electrician.

What town/city/village/county/state do you live in? Perhaps I can help you
with that.

It's folly to take advice from people that cannot see/experience your
specific problem wthout knowing first what the specific requirements are.
You won't get that here; you'll get advice and guesses. 99.99% of the
country DOES have their own local offices, so whatever your problem is, and
I think it's just not knowing where/who to call/write to, so the advice to
check with them is excellent advice. Without information from the
controlling authority, you cannot be expected to adhere to the code, even if
all it says is to adhere to the NEC.

HTH,

Twayne`

In ,
Evan typed:
On Jul 2, 5:55 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...



,
RBM typed:
"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a
junction box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They
all show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the
ground wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps
and jumpers for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask
them. No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.

LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring
inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county
inspector conduct the wiring inspections and sign off on
the permits...

~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay
them directly. There are no electrical code enforcement
offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

You are either weasel-wording or just outright
uneducated. There IS code enforcement, whether you choose
to recognize it or not.

You constantly tell people to call their "code inforcement
office" for answers to their electrical questions. I'm
saying that there is no code inforcement office in my
county or any neighboring counties. When licensed
electricians do work, we have accounts with private
,certified electrical inspection companies.We hire them
and they inspect our work. There is no governmental office
that one can call for answers to electrical questions, and
the private inspection companies are only going to tell a
person to call a licensed electrician.




LOL... So there is no possible conflict of interest there
at all...

You PAY a company to inspect, would you keep paying them if
they failed your
work... LOL...

Who randomly spot checks various types of installations to
be sure that the codes are actually being interpreted and
correctly applied...

Sounds to me you could shop around for an private
inspection firm which is less strict than another...

Tell me which state/county this is in so I will never stay
in any structure there, as they are not being inspected by
an uninterested party like the government...

~~ Evan

I suspect the problem there may be simply not knowing where the
responsibility lies and the rest might be sort of educated guesses. He only
mentioned county; nothing about town or state, for instance. I know it can
be hard to figure out sometimes and it becomes important if it's an insured
property.

HTH,

Twayne`

In ,
dpb typed:
Twayne wrote:
...

You are either weasel-wording or just outright uneducated.
There IS code enforcement, whether you choose to recognize
it or not.

No, you're making unwarranted assumptions that just because
there's something in place where you are or have been that
means it's universal.
It isn't...there is no electrical or building code
enforcement in the county outside the city-mandated 3-mile
limit here, either...there is a requirement on sewage/water
but that's the extent.

Where specifically is that?

HTH,

Twayne`

In ,
RBM typed:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
Twayne wrote:
...

You are either weasel-wording or just outright
uneducated. There IS code enforcement, whether you choose
to recognize it or not.

No, you're making unwarranted assumptions that just
because there's something in place where you are or have
been that means it's universal. It isn't...there is no electrical or
building code
enforcement in the county outside the city-mandated 3-mile
limit here, either...there is a requirement on
sewage/water but that's the extent.

He has a penchant for putting together a bunch of words
that have little to no meaning. My one and only point is
that we have no office or person that you can call for code
related answers. I'm not inferring that we don't have
codes, we just don't have a person that answers questions.
The towns, villages, inspectors, etc. will just tell you to
call a professional.
--

So ... call a professional then. I hope the one you call has the proper
license/background. Who then does the inspections?

In ,
dpb typed:
Twayne wrote:
...

Well, outside the city 3-mile limit, there is none here,
either. There is a sewer/well permit process but nothing
other than that and the County doesn't pay the City nor
are there building permits, etc., beyond that.

Ouch! If you believe everything you just said, I feel for
you. Also, I'd like to know precisely where this area is
with the "3-mile limit" from a "city". I don't believe it.
And of course, the country you are talking about.
Something feels very wrong with your comment.
...

Why should I not believe what is so? And, thank you very
much, we like the status quo very much.

And, of course, you're welcome to disbelieve whatever you
wish; it's not uncommon for city folk in populated areas to
think its required for governments to take care of
everything for them.
The "city" is county seat w/ population of roughly 20,000. The State
allows municipalities to extend their zoning,
etc., to 3-miles from city limits but beyond that it's the
county's call. Being as it is rural and farmers are
notoriously independent when it comes to what they think is
the best for their operation, it's not at all surprising
there's no support for additional zoning in the county.
The sewage/well requirement was in response to the
proliferation of trailers and so on in a couple of areas
within the county and has been adequate to curb further
excesses since adopted. My Dad, in fact, served on the
joint city-county planning commission for some 20 years and
was instrumental in drafting same years ago.
Again, there's a whole lot of territory out here that most
folks don't know nuthin' about...

Yes, there is. That's why I asked for a specific location. Problem is, you
see, you're splitting hairs and only adding confusion the way you're doing
it here. A location would let me look it up and let me see what it's all
about. Which I've also already asked for.

HTH,

Twayne`

In ,
RBM typed:
"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
RBM typed:
"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...



,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a
junction box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They
all show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the
ground wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps
and jumpers for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.




LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector
conduct the wiring inspections and sign off on the
permits... ~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

By law, there has to be. It's a legal requirement, I'm
afraid. HTH,

Twayne`

I get it now. The world acording to Twayne

Reality according to the law fits better. NO region exists that is not under
some regulations. It also sounds like you have no idea about what the County
requirements are. Where is this mythical city?

In ,
dpb typed:
Twayne wrote:
...

By law, there has to be. It's a legal requirement, I'm
afraid. ...

Cite? It certainly isn't federal law (or hasn't made
itself known locally anyway) and see above for local
situation here...

The above says nothing. I'll give you a hint for citations: Start by looking
at ANSI and perhaps a trip to your local town hall.

On 07/04/2010 09:18 AM, Twayne wrote:
In ,
typed:
wrote in message
...
In ,
typed:
wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, wrote:
wrote in message

...



,
typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a
junction box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They
all show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the
ground wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps
and jumpers for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.




LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector
conduct the wiring inspections and sign off on the
permits... ~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

By law, there has to be. It's a legal requirement, I'm
afraid. HTH,

Twayne`

I get it now. The world acording to Twayne

Reality according to the law fits better. NO region exists that is not under
some regulations. It also sounds like you have no idea about what the County
requirements are. Where is this mythical city?



I've used 3rd party inspectors as well, in DC and in NoVA. Some places
have regular inspectors that are county employees, some don't. Some
jurisdictions tell you to hire a 3rd party for huge projects but send
out regular county inspectors for small ones.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 09:19:19 -0400, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
dpb typed:
Twayne wrote:
...

By law, there has to be. It's a legal requirement, I'm
afraid. ...

Cite? It certainly isn't federal law (or hasn't made
itself known locally anyway) and see above for local
situation here...

The above says nothing. I'll give you a hint for citations: Start by looking
at ANSI and perhaps a trip to your local town hall.

You do realize that ANSI is also a private not-for-profit corporation that has
no other standing (i.e. other than being a not-for-profit 501 (c)3) with the
federal government?

Twayne wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:
You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements
Wrong. The Code describes itself as "contain[ing]
provisions that are
considered necessary for electrical safety." Nowhere does
it describe itself
as a set of minimum standards. Further, the Code
specifically authorizes local
jurisdictions to waive provisions of the Code.

Of course not!, AFAIK, and it should not anyway since NEC is NOT the body
responsible for deciding what is a set of minimal requirements and what is
not.

The NEC is not a "body". The NFPA creates the NEC.

It is, however the MINIMAL requirements for the US fire and personal
safety protection requirements.

Cite. Feds? UN? T-party? The pope?

Hallucinations do not count.

It may specify say 8 conductors in a certain
box: no more than 8 in a box can be used and still pass the electrical
code. It is not possible for another body to step in and say BS, I'll allow
10, or 12, or 21!

The NEC explicitly gives the AHJ authority to modify NEC requirements in
particular cases.


What you are trying to say, and failing to do, and only bringing up
confusion for most who are not familiar wth these areas, is that the NEC
comes from a SMALL part of the NFPA - 70 I think? Not sure but if YOU don't
know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

The NEC is one of many standards that come from the NFPA. None of them
are applicable unless adopted in whole or part by an "authority". (ANSI
is not that authority.)

The NFPA "adopted" NEC and approved by ANSI. I almost defy you to cite
ANY local which has less stringent rules than the NEC unless the artcles
concern something that is Not Applicable to the region.

A number of jurisdictions had less stringent, or no, rules on AFCIs.

According to you that can't happen.

You will find that
even such a case, should it exist, is NOT the end of the line and WILL have
been approved, usually by ANSI. I don't mention the other 3 because I don't
want to do your homework for you.

Beyond stupid. Jurisdictions don't need ANSI permission to adopt what
they want (or nothing).


Oh, then how come the NEC calls FOR the NFPA in many sections if IT IS the
NFPA sourced it? It's not uncommon at all to see things like:
"
NEC REQUIREMENT
? Either of the following listing
requirements**
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global

Does not exist in the NEC. Acceptance is by the AHJ.


* Refer to NFPA 220 for definition of non-combustible Type I and II building
construction.

Geez - I guess the NFPA could include all of its standards in one
document. That would be real useful.


MINIMUM is the operative word
there. Many zoning areas management choose to strengthen
some parts of it as they see fit for the demographics of
any geographical area they serve. They use the NEC as the
basiis for their requirements and adjust it as they
require for their own specifc needs. The NEC requirements
can only be strengthened, never loosened, by local
jurisdiction.
Wrong; as noted above, local jurisdictions are explicitly
permitted under the
Code to waive portions of it if they choose. Further, the
Code itself has no
legal force unless adopted as law by a particular
jurisdiction -- and nothing
at all prevents a jurisdiction from adopting only part of
the Code as law,
should they choose to do so.

The above is so far off base as to make me wonder whether you anything but a
passing familiarity with NEC, NFPA/NEC, ANSI, UL and the other associated
bodies.

You are apparently educated beyond your intelligence.

What ever happened to you promise to HeyBub: "next time I'll be a lot
more careful."

--
bud--

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:
You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements

Wrong. The Code describes itself as "contain[ing]
provisions that are
considered necessary for electrical safety." Nowhere does
it describe itself
as a set of minimum standards. Further, the Code
specifically authorizes local
jurisdictions to waive provisions of the Code.

Of course not!, AFAIK, and it should not anyway since NEC is NOT the body
responsible for deciding what is a set of minimal requirements and what is
not. It is, however the MINIMAL requirements for the US fire and personal
safety protection requirements.

It is a set of recommendations. That is all.

It may specify say 8 conductors in a certain
box: no more than 8 in a box can be used and still pass the electrical
code. It is not possible for another body to step in and say BS, I'll allow
10, or 12, or 21! It can spec a minimal distance between objects, but as
before that distance can NOT be made less but it CAN be more!

False. You completely misunderstand what the Code is.

Any jurisdiction may, if it wishes, adopt the Code in toto or in part, as law,
and modify it in any way it chooses. The Code has no legal force.
You need to get a grip and actually think about what you're on about
before spewing misinformation to the world, in particular the type that
indicates a final word on a location's requirements can be gotten from this
newsgroup and be as good or better than going to the local controlling
authority.

Indeed this is good advice; you should consider following it.

What you are trying to say, and failing to do, and only bringing up
confusion for most who are not familiar wth these areas, is that the NEC
comes from a SMALL part of the NFPA - 70 I think? Not sure but if YOU don't
know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I never said that.

The NEC is a set of "regulations" for protection of personnel and
property safety in electrical installations. Except for heavily more
stringent regulations, NOT weaker. Fiber-optics is one such area, but
nit-picking of that kind only serves to dillute the credibility of your own
input.

False. The NEC is not a set of regulations at all. It is a set of recommended
practices to ensure electrical safety. It has no regulatory force whatever.
That force comes from laws or ordinances that adopt the Code as the electrical
standard for a particular jurisdiction -- and any jurisdiction is free to
adopt, or not adopt, the Code or any part of it as law as it sees fit.

The NFPA "adopted" NEC and approved by ANSI. I almost defy you to cite
ANY local which has less stringent rules than the NEC unless the artcles
concern something that is Not Applicable to the region. You will find that
even such a case, should it exist, is NOT the end of the line and WILL have
been approved, usually by ANSI. I don't mention the other 3 because I don't
want to do your homework for you.

That's easy enough. There are numerous locales that have *no* electrical code
whatever. That certainly qualifies as "less stringent rules than the NEC".

based on the criteria of many different organizations
all pulled together into NEC (NFPA, etc.).

Wrong. The Code is the product of *one* organization, the NFPA.

Urban Renewals has this short, concise definition:
The accepted standard for installation of wiring and associated devices. It
is written by a panel of experts and printed by the National Fire Prevention
Association. Top of Page [Top]

Completely irrelevant. Read what the NEC says about itself.

[irrelevantia snipped]

You claimed that the NEC consists of "criteria of many different
organizations ... (NFPA etc)." That's not true. The NEC is the product of the
NFPA alone.

The NEC is NOT the NFPA!

Nobody ever said it was.

Two different offices, two different functions in
the overall scheme of things.

Ummm...no. The NFPA is the author of the NEC.

[more irrelevant nonsense snipped]
"




MINIMUM is the operative word
there. Many zoning areas management choose to strengthen
some parts of it as they see fit for the demographics of
any geographical area they serve. They use the NEC as the
basiis for their requirements and adjust it as they
require for their own specifc needs. The NEC requirements
can only be strengthened, never loosened, by local
jurisdiction.

Wrong; as noted above, local jurisdictions are explicitly permitted under the
Code to waive portions of it if they choose. Further, the Code itself has no
legal force unless adopted as law by a particular jurisdiction -- and nothing
at all prevents a jurisdiction from adopting only part of the Code as law,
should they choose to do so.

The above is so far off base as to make me wonder whether you anything but a
passing familiarity with NEC, NFPA/NEC, ANSI, UL and the other associated
bodies.

Time to put up, or shut up. Specify what exactly is "off base" in that
statement.

[further irrelevant nonsense snipped]

It would help a lot more if it were true. Perhaps you should stick to giving
advice on topics you actually know something about, if there are any. This
isn't one of them.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:
You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements

Wrong. The Code describes itself as "contain[ing]
provisions that are
considered necessary for electrical safety." Nowhere does
it describe itself
as a set of minimum standards. Further, the Code
specifically authorizes local
jurisdictions to waive provisions of the Code.

Of course not!, AFAIK, and it should not anyway since NEC is NOT the body
responsible for deciding what is a set of minimal requirements and what is
not. It is, however the MINIMAL requirements for the US fire and personal
safety protection requirements.

It is a set of recommendations. That is all.

It may specify say 8 conductors in a certain
box: no more than 8 in a box can be used and still pass the electrical
code. It is not possible for another body to step in and say BS, I'll
allow
10, or 12, or 21! It can spec a minimal distance between objects, but as
before that distance can NOT be made less but it CAN be more!

False. You completely misunderstand what the Code is.

Any jurisdiction may, if it wishes, adopt the Code in toto or in part, as
law,
and modify it in any way it chooses. The Code has no legal force.
You need to get a grip and actually think about what you're on about
before spewing misinformation to the world, in particular the type that
indicates a final word on a location's requirements can be gotten from
this
newsgroup and be as good or better than going to the local controlling
authority.

Indeed this is good advice; you should consider following it.

What you are trying to say, and failing to do, and only bringing up
confusion for most who are not familiar wth these areas, is that the NEC
comes from a SMALL part of the NFPA - 70 I think? Not sure but if YOU
don't
know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I never said that.

The NEC is a set of "regulations" for protection of personnel and
property safety in electrical installations. Except for heavily more
stringent regulations, NOT weaker. Fiber-optics is one such area, but
nit-picking of that kind only serves to dillute the credibility of your
own
input.

False. The NEC is not a set of regulations at all. It is a set of
recommended
practices to ensure electrical safety. It has no regulatory force
whatever.
That force comes from laws or ordinances that adopt the Code as the
electrical
standard for a particular jurisdiction -- and any jurisdiction is free to
adopt, or not adopt, the Code or any part of it as law as it sees fit.

The NFPA "adopted" NEC and approved by ANSI. I almost defy you to cite
ANY local which has less stringent rules than the NEC unless the artcles
concern something that is Not Applicable to the region. You will find that
even such a case, should it exist, is NOT the end of the line and WILL
have
been approved, usually by ANSI. I don't mention the other 3 because I
don't
want to do your homework for you.

That's easy enough. There are numerous locales that have *no* electrical
code
whatever. That certainly qualifies as "less stringent rules than the NEC".

based on the criteria of many different organizations
all pulled together into NEC (NFPA, etc.).

Wrong. The Code is the product of *one* organization, the NFPA.

Urban Renewals has this short, concise definition:
The accepted standard for installation of wiring and associated devices.
It
is written by a panel of experts and printed by the National Fire
Prevention
Association. Top of Page [Top]

Completely irrelevant. Read what the NEC says about itself.

[irrelevantia snipped]

You claimed that the NEC consists of "criteria of many different
organizations ... (NFPA etc)." That's not true. The NEC is the product of
the
NFPA alone.

The NEC is NOT the NFPA!

Nobody ever said it was.

Two different offices, two different functions in
the overall scheme of things.

Ummm...no. The NFPA is the author of the NEC.

[more irrelevant nonsense snipped]
"




MINIMUM is the operative word
there. Many zoning areas management choose to strengthen
some parts of it as they see fit for the demographics of
any geographical area they serve. They use the NEC as the
basiis for their requirements and adjust it as they
require for their own specifc needs. The NEC requirements
can only be strengthened, never loosened, by local
jurisdiction.

Wrong; as noted above, local jurisdictions are explicitly permitted
under the
Code to waive portions of it if they choose. Further, the Code itself
has no
legal force unless adopted as law by a particular jurisdiction -- and
nothing
at all prevents a jurisdiction from adopting only part of the Code as
law,
should they choose to do so.

The above is so far off base as to make me wonder whether you anything but
a
passing familiarity with NEC, NFPA/NEC, ANSI, UL and the other associated
bodies.

Time to put up, or shut up. Specify what exactly is "off base" in that
statement.

[further irrelevant nonsense snipped]

It would help a lot more if it were true. Perhaps you should stick to
giving
advice on topics you actually know something about, if there are any.
This
isn't one of them.

How can you debate with a guy that pulls all of his "facts" out of his ass.
Nothing he spews has any basis in truth, it's just made up as he goes along.
Has he ever documented anything to back up his nonsense?

On Jul 3, 11:07*pm, "RBM" wrote:

Dude, get it through your head, there are NO government inspectors. There
never have been in the NY metro area. The place is not burning down. Show me
any documented accounts that wiring in NYC is any worse than anywhere else.
*With your love for almighty government, you must be a shill for Obama

Dude, get it through YOUR head that you have placed and are placing
your safety for wiring inspections (is that all wiring including fire
alarms,
or does FDNY still have its own inspection people who verify those
systems) in the hands of a PRIVATE BUSINESS who can and will
keep many things about the way it works secret...

Obama has nothing to do with it and only a true nut-job themselves
would make such a reference... Business is motivated by MONEY
not by public safety... That fact that you can't see that definitely
tells me that you can't see when you are being led around by the
nose...

~~ Evan

In article , Twayne wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:
You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements

Wrong. The Code describes itself as "contain[ing]
provisions that are
considered necessary for electrical safety." Nowhere does
it describe itself
as a set of minimum standards. Further, the Code
specifically authorizes local
jurisdictions to waive provisions of the Code.

Of course not!, AFAIK, and it should not anyway since NEC is NOT the body
responsible for deciding what is a set of minimal requirements and what is
not. It is, however the MINIMAL requirements for the US fire and personal
safety protection requirements. It may specify say 8 conductors in a certain
box: no more than 8 in a box can be used and still pass the electrical
code. It is not possible for another body to step in and say BS, I'll allow
10, or 12, or 21! It can spec a minimal distance between objects, but as
before that distance can NOT be made less but it CAN be more!
You need to get a grip and actually think about what you're on about
before spewing misinformation to the world, in particular the type that
indicates a final word on a location's requirements can be gotten from this
newsgroup and be as good or better than going to the local controlling
authority.

What you are trying to say, and failing to do, and only bringing up
confusion for most who are not familiar wth these areas, is that the NEC
comes from a SMALL part of the NFPA - 70 I think? Not sure but if YOU don't
know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
The NEC is a set of "regulations" for protection of personnel and
property safety in electrical installations. Except for heavily more
stringent regulations, NOT weaker. Fiber-optics is one such area, but
nit-picking of that kind only serves to dillute the credibility of your own
input.
The NFPA "adopted" NEC and approved by ANSI. I almost defy you to cite
ANY local which has less stringent rules than the NEC unless the artcles
concern something that is Not Applicable to the region. You will find that
even such a case, should it exist, is NOT the end of the line and WILL have
been approved, usually by ANSI. I don't mention the other 3 because I don't
want to do your homework for you.

based on the criteria of many different organizations
all pulled together into NEC (NFPA, etc.).

Wrong. The Code is the product of *one* organization, the NFPA.

Urban Renewals has this short, concise definition:
The accepted standard for installation of wiring and associated devices. It
is written by a panel of experts and printed by the National Fire Prevention
Association. Top of Page [Top]


Oh, then how come the NEC calls FOR the NFPA in many sections if IT IS the
NFPA sourced it? It's not uncommon at all to see things like:
"
NEC REQUIREMENT
? Either of the following listing
requirements**
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global

* Refer to NFPA 220 for definition of non-combustible Type I and II building
construction.
** Fine Print Note, Section 450.23, (B)(1) states: "Installations adjacent
to combustible material, fire escapes, or door and window openings may
require additional safeguards such as those listed in Section 450.27. It
says to go to the NFPA for DEFINITIONS, not for rules. The NEC contains the
rules.

The NEC is NOT the NFPA! Two different offices, two different functions in
the overall scheme of things.

SNIP from here to edit for space

ANSI and NFPA are private organizations. I have a hunch that any others
contributing to NEC are also private organizations. NEC is a product of
NFPA more than anything else.

Underwriters' Laboratories is a private organization.

Private organizations do not make laws. Only governments make laws.

The NEC is law only where gubmint makes it the law, and USA's Federal
gubmint does not make NEC into law. Maybe 98-99% of USA's population
lives in counties or municipalities where the building code makes NEC in
full as of some specific year (sometimes with further restrictions) into
law. Some localities forbid retailing of electrical equipment of kinds
that UL establishes listing requirements for but is not listed by UL or
one of its competitors. Fire insurance companies can cause grief over
using electrical equipment "other than as directed" or if UL has
requirements for it to be listed and the equipment is not listed by UL
(or one of their competitors). Failure of building work to comply with
NEC may contribute to one who did non-compliant work to be on the short
end of a civil court case.

But the writers of NEC do not make law, and USA's Federal gubmont is
generally not in the business of building codes (even though they regulate
employment and workplace safety practices and manufacturing, and usage and
disposal and transportation of some materials).

(Strange fun fact: Ballastless light bulbs are usually not UL listed,
even if they are of the "Big 3" brands, GE, Philips, Osram-Sylvania.)
--
- Don Klipstein )

On 4 juil, 02:04, "Twayne" wrote:
,
dpb typed:





Twayne wrote:
...

You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a
set of nationwide MINIMAL requirements based on the
criteria of many *different organizations all pulled
together into NEC (NFPA, etc.). *MINIMUM is the operative
word there. Many zoning areas management choose to
strengthen some parts of it as they see fit for the
demographics of any geographical area they serve. They use
the NEC as the basiis for their requirements and adjust it
as they require for their own specifc needs. The NEC
requirements can only be strengthened, never loosened, by
local jurisdiction.

The first part of that is sorta' true; the last sentence is
complete and utter hogwash. *It appears you are the one
under a serious misconception. *NEC has no standing other
than whatever whichever jurisdiction in charge choose to
give it. It is NOT law nor have any status such as that. As so, local
jurisdictions could choose to ignore it
*entirely and do it all on there own or w/ some other basis
than NEC. That they don't is simply reflective that there's
no reason to *reinvent the wheel in general not that there's any
inviolate mandate or law the requires it.

Wow, you guys may be pros, but you're missing a lot! The requirements of the
NEC cannot be ignored or loosened without case by case investigation and
approval, meaning good reason. *Any loosening of the code that's possible is
included IN the NEC itself or its references. The only way to avoid NEC
adherance is to superced the entire context with another, stronger document
with adjustments in areas necessary. Somce California cites are a great
example of this.
* *Rather than asssting in general, you choose to nit-pick and extoll the
exceptions to the rules, without regard to location or authority, and that
tells me that you are dangerous people to take advice from.

Just for grins, I took this e-mail to our local inspector's office where I
know the inspectors. We went to lunch together (we each paid our own way)
and this was the general concensus:
-- You sound like the type where intent of the requirements isn't your
strong point.
-- You are the type to cut corners, most likely.
-- Your atttudes are far from what's needed in having the client's benefit
in mind.
-- And your understanding of the NEC and how/when/where it's applied appears
to be seriously lacking IF you are in a role where they matter to the work
you do.
-- I did not know the NEC could be replaced, which they showed me in black
and white.
-- I came off as condescending and may have inspired your trollity. Yeah, I
learned a new word!

As for the rest of your trollish BS and silliness, it's been deleted; not
needed for this response.

HTH,

Twayne`- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

- Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

Personally, I'd take the advice from guys like RBM, Bud, and Doug
based on their excellent knowledge of the NEC. And I have on many
occasions. And contrary to your silly claim for the need to always
call the local code office or zoning office, I've seen lots of people
get good sound advice here. To claim that one needs to call the
local code office to know the answer to basic NEC questions is
nonsense. And along the lines of what RBM stated, in some areas of
NJ; which isnt exactly some hillbilly terrritory, some municipalities
use private electrical inspection companies. And those guys are NOT
sitting around answering homeowner questions on how to do electrical
work correctly.

RBM posted for all of us...



I know I'm jealous. Where I live, in Bill Clinton's back yard, you can't
**** without a permit

--

Don't worry, Clinton has already marked his territory.

--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

PRESENTLY THIS IS THE MOST MORONIC DISCUSSION ON USENET

I AM PROTEUS

On 7/2/2010 3:25 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, wrote:
wrote in message

...



,
typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via
12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down inside
the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them. No one here is
going to know preciesly what their requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have nothing like that in my
area.




LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a large area
served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector OR pay a
fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct the wiring
inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

LOL! the county just to the south of me has no such "codes"
"enforcement" or inspectors. You can build a complete house from
scratch, and no such permits except for a septic system are required.
So to say " You do have such an office," is not always correct.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 7/2/2010 3:25 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, wrote:
wrote in message

...



,
typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via
12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down inside
the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them. No one
here is
going to know preciesly what their requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is certainly
the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you think
everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have nothing like
that in my
area.




LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a large area
served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector OR pay a
fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct the wiring
inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

LOL! the county just to the south of me has no such "codes"
"enforcement" or inspectors. You can build a complete house from
scratch, and no such permits except for a septic system are
required. So to say " You do have such an office," is not always
correct.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

We don't even have a septic system requirement. But I think farms of
less than 50 or maybe it's 100 acres might have some kind of
inspection requirement. As for his question, I have the 2005 code book
but it will take me awhile to find it. So, I'll just try to answer
this from memory. As for the wire nut question. I would not even
consider the pigtail method if you are going direct to, and only to, a
wall plug outlet. Just wire the black to the bronze with a wire nut
(correct size), white to the silver with a wire nut (correct size),
and the unwrapped copper to the green/ground. Now, if you are using a
metal box, you definately should pigtail and ground to the box also
and use a wire nut to connect the two wires (correct size). As for the
junction box, I'm not sure what you're asking. If it is a straight
run, why would you need a junction box? I might be confused by your
terminology and maybe you are just talking about the eor (end of run)
connections to the outlet. If that's the case, yes, you need the
"junction" box.

Proteus IIV wrote:
PRESENTLY THIS IS THE MOST MORONIC DISCUSSION ON USENET

I AM PROTEUS

This is the most moronic troll on the internet; has infected
alt.engineering.electrical for years.

--
bud--

"The Post Quartermaster"
wrote in message
...

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 7/2/2010 3:25 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, wrote:
wrote in message

...



,
typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker via
12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down inside
the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them. No one
here is
going to know preciesly what their requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is certainly
the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you think
everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have nothing like
that in my
area.




LOL... You do have such an office, you just live in a large area
served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector OR pay
a
fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct the
wiring
inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

LOL! the county just to the south of me has no such "codes"
"enforcement" or inspectors. You can build a complete house from
scratch, and no such permits except for a septic system are
required. So to say " You do have such an office," is not always
correct.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

We don't even have a septic system requirement. But I think farms of
less than 50 or maybe it's 100 acres might have some kind of
inspection requirement. As for his question, I have the 2005 code
book but it will take me awhile to find it. So, I'll just try to
answer this from memory. As for the wire nut question. I would not
even consider the pigtail method if you are going direct to, and
only to, a wall plug outlet. Just wire the black to the bronze with
a wire nut (correct size), white to the silver with a wire nut
(correct size), and the unwrapped copper to the green/ground. Now,
if you are using a metal box, you definately should pigtail and
ground to the box also and use a wire nut to connect the two wires
(correct size). As for the junction box, I'm not sure what you're
asking. If it is a straight run, why would you need a junction box?
I might be confused by your terminology and maybe you are just
talking about the eor (end of run) connections to the outlet. If
that's the case, yes, you need the "junction" box.

Let me clarify something here. The wire nuts are used if you are going
to use pigtails. Otherwise just connect direct to the outlet plug,
black to bronze, white to silver and plain to green.

On Jul 2, 6:08*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
RBM typed:



"Evan" wrote in message
....
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.

LOL... *You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct
the wiring inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

By law, there has to be. It's a legal requirement, I'm afraid.

HTH,

Twayne`

What law exactly? Cite it. There are so many misstatements in your
replies that I must assume you are extrapolating a very narrow
experience set to the whole continent. The National Electric Code is
a privately published document. It only becomes enforceable when it
has been adopted in whole or part by a state or a political
subdivision of a state. Do you even know what a minimum / maximum
state is? Just as almost half of US states do not have OSHA
enforcement for government employees and smaller firms many state have
no state wide electrical code. Only incorporated municipalities or
charter counties can adopt local codes in most states. Statutory
counties cannot, in most states, do anything not required of them by
state statute. Many states and local jurisdictions have declined to
adopt the Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter requirements of the last two
code cycles and that is only one example of local exception to your so
called absolute minimum. I have installed electrical installations
from Argentina to Alaska and California to Maine. I have worked in
many areas were there is no electrical code in place. Some of the
companies I have worked for went through a great deal of research in
trying to find a code enforcement authority for an installation only
to conclude that the owners acceptance representative was the only
authority having jurisdiction. There are in fact vast stretches of
the United States of America that have no publicly enforced electric
code of any kind.
--
Tom Horne

On Jul 2, 10:08*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jul 2, 5:55*pm, "RBM" wrote:



"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
RBM typed:
"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.

LOL... *You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct
the wiring inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

You are either weasel-wording or just outright uneducated. There IS code
enforcement, whether you choose to recognize it or not.

You constantly tell people to call their "code inforcement office" for
answers to their electrical questions. I'm saying that there is no code
inforcement office in my county or any neighboring counties. When licensed
electricians do work, we have accounts with private ,certified electrical
inspection companies.We hire them and they inspect our work. There is no
governmental office that one can call for answers to electrical questions,
and the private inspection companies are only going to tell a person to call
a licensed electrician.

LOL... *So there is no possible conflict of interest there at all...

You PAY a company to inspect, would you keep paying them if they
failed your
work... *LOL...

Who randomly spot checks various types of installations to be sure
that the codes are actually being interpreted and correctly applied...

Sounds to me you could shop around for an private inspection firm
which is less strict than another...

Tell me which state/county this is in so I will never stay in any
structure there, as they are not being inspected by an uninterested
party like the government...

~~ Evan

Evan
Get a grip. He didn't say or even infer that the system he described
is the only one to have. All he said is that it is what they have
were he does business. I too have had to work with contract
inspectors in several installations. What keeps them from playing
fast and loose with the enforcement is a principal of tort law called
harmful reliance. Since the contractor is paid by the customer the
code enforcement contractor is actually working for the end user.
When a firm entices anyone to rely on a product of service they
provide and brings the person to harm they have created a cause of
action at tort law. The risk that the firm offering a service or
product undertakes is directly proportional to the potential harm and
unlike a publicly employed inspector the contract firms cannot hide
behind the states sovereign immunity.
--
Tom Horne

On Jul 8, 10:29*pm, Tom Horne wrote:
On Jul 2, 10:08*pm, Evan wrote:





On Jul 2, 5:55*pm, "RBM" wrote:

"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
RBM typed:
"Evan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 2, 4:20 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message

...

,
Josh typed:
I plan on adding a dedicated 20A GFIC outlet above my
kitchen countertop, fed from a new 20A circuit breaker
via 12-2 w/ground Romex run through my attic and down
inside the wall to the outlet. Two questions:

1. Since it will be a dedicated circuit (only the one
outlet on it) does the electrical code require a junction
box between the breaker and the outlet?

2. Since the outlet will be the end of the line, is it
necessary to use wire caps and jumpers for the hot and
neutral in the outlet box, or can I simply run them
straight to the outlet terminals? I've seen the
connections drawn both ways in reference books. They all
show the wire cap and jumper to a screw for the ground
wire, but differ as to the need for wire caps and jumpers
for the other two wires.

Contact your local code enforcement office and ask them.
No one here is going to know preciesly what their
requirements are.

HTH,

Twayne`

People on this group tend to know NEC and CEC, which is
certainly the basis
for whatever local jurisdictions use. Why is it that you
think everyone has
a " local code enforcement office"? I for one, have
nothing like that in my
area.

LOL... *You do have such an office, you just live in a
large area served
by a county-wide or state-wide "local office"...

Most places in the US have a city or town wiring inspector
OR pay a fee to their county to have the county inspector conduct
the wiring inspections and sign off on the permits...

~~ Evan

Not exactly. I live in Westchester county, NY. I hold a
master electrician's license issued by the county. When I
do electrical work, depending upon the particular
jurisdiction , I hire an inspection company and I pay them
directly. There are no electrical code enforcement offices
that a citizen can call and get any information regarding
electrical requirements.

You are either weasel-wording or just outright uneducated. There IS code
enforcement, whether you choose to recognize it or not.

You constantly tell people to call their "code inforcement office" for
answers to their electrical questions. I'm saying that there is no code
inforcement office in my county or any neighboring counties. When licensed
electricians do work, we have accounts with private ,certified electrical
inspection companies.We hire them and they inspect our work. There is no
governmental office that one can call for answers to electrical questions,
and the private inspection companies are only going to tell a person to call
a licensed electrician.

LOL... *So there is no possible conflict of interest there at all...

You PAY a company to inspect, would you keep paying them if they
failed your
work... *LOL...

Who randomly spot checks various types of installations to be sure
that the codes are actually being interpreted and correctly applied...

Sounds to me you could shop around for an private inspection firm
which is less strict than another...

Tell me which state/county this is in so I will never stay in any
structure there, as they are not being inspected by an uninterested
party like the government...

~~ Evan

Evan
Get a grip. *He didn't say or even infer that the system he described
is the only one to have. *All he said is that it is what they have
were he does business. *I too have had to work with contract
inspectors in several installations. *What keeps them from playing
fast and loose with the enforcement is a principal of tort law called
harmful reliance. *Since the contractor is paid by the customer the
code enforcement contractor is actually working for the end user.
When a firm entices anyone to rely on a product of service they
provide and brings the person to harm they have created a cause of
action at tort law. *The risk that the firm offering a service or
product undertakes is directly proportional to the potential harm and
unlike a publicly employed inspector the contract firms cannot hide
behind the states sovereign immunity.
--
Tom Horne- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And if govt is so superior to any possibly private inspection, how
well did having the govt Dept of Interior be responsible for
controlling how offshore oil wells are drilled safely? Didn't they
approve a worst case oil containment plan that not only didn't work,
but was full of obvious factual errors, including dealing with
Walrus? Didn't they continue to let BP operate after they had racked
up 700+ willful and eggregious safety violations in the last several
years. The next worst major oil company had around 10 violations
and then it tails off to just a few for the rest.