My understanding is that concealed junction boxes are not allowed
according to the wiring regulations. Does this extend to lighting
circuits? My DIY book (2001) clearly shows using junctions boxes
under floorboards as an alternative to the loop-in system.

thanks for any help

Martin

My understanding is that concealed junction boxes are not allowed
according to the wiring regulations. Does this extend to lighting
circuits?

It's not the junction box, but the screw terminals within that must remain
accessible for inspection. It is my understanding that being located
underneath liftable floorboards counts as accessible.

Christian.

"MG" wrote in message
om...
My understanding is that concealed junction boxes are not allowed
according to the wiring regulations. Does this extend to lighting
circuits? My DIY book (2001) clearly shows using junctions boxes
under floorboards as an alternative to the loop-in system.

Same regs, but I think the vernacular is not 'concealed' but 'inaccessible'.
How you define that precisely is a moot point, but under floorboards etc is
normally deemed OK, because floorboards can be lifted readily; whereas (eg)
buried invisibly in plaster walls is not.

David

Lobster wrote:
"MG" wrote in message
om...

My understanding is that concealed junction boxes are not allowed
according to the wiring regulations. Does this extend to lighting
circuits? My DIY book (2001) clearly shows using junctions boxes
under floorboards as an alternative to the loop-in system.


Same regs, but I think the vernacular is not 'concealed' but 'inaccessible'.
How you define that precisely is a moot point, but under floorboards etc is
normally deemed OK, because floorboards can be lifted readily; whereas (eg)
buried invisibly in plaster walls is not.

David



What about behind a kitchen unit? This is accessible but only if I
dismantle half the kitchen to get to it! An accident with a power drill,
frayed tempers and total fustration led me to this bodge.

Steve

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.

Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the ceiling,
so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this doesn't meet
regs, why are they on sale?

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.


Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the ceiling,
so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this doesn't meet
regs, why are they on sale?


But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

"Steve Jones" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

My take on 'accessible' is you should be able to access it during
an electrical inspection/test. I would not expect to be pulling
out a fitted kitchen or removing fitted flooring coverings during
an electrical inspection/test, which might happen on a house sale
for example. Others may not agree -- there's no definition of just
how 'accessible' it needs to be.


Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the ceiling,
so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this doesn't meet
regs, why are they on sale?


But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

No, cos typically the single cable to the light fitting comes through the
ceiling via a small (single-cable-sized) hole, and the wiring connections
are all inside a junction box or something similar, above the ceiling

David

In article ,
Steve Jones wrote:
Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the
ceiling, so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this
doesn't meet regs, why are they on sale?


But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the new
fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.

--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lobster wrote:

But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

No, cos typically the single cable to the light fitting comes through the
ceiling via a small (single-cable-sized) hole, and the wiring connections
are all inside a junction box or something similar, above the ceiling

Not typical in the land where I live.

Most lights have a ceiling rose in which all the interconnections are
done, nothing except wires in the void above.

--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
Lobster wrote:

But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?

No, cos typically the single cable to the light fitting comes through the
ceiling via a small (single-cable-sized) hole, and the wiring connections
are all inside a junction box or something similar, above the ceiling

Not typical in the land where I live.

Most lights have a ceiling rose in which all the interconnections are
done, nothing except wires in the void above.

Same here, but the question was about a scenario where the original fitting
(ie a ceiling rose presumably) was being replaced (ie by a 'modern' fitting
which doesn't want a rose)

David

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Jones wrote:

Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the
ceiling, so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this
doesn't meet regs, why are they on sale?



But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?


The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the new
fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.


I discovered that modern halogen fittings with integral transformer
often have a very deep fitting. Just enough room to be able to unwire
and remove the old lampholder from the flex from the ceiling rose, wire
this to the terminals on the new fitting, then fix new fitting onto the
ceiling with the old ceiling rose covered up by the fitting itself!

Luckily it was a fairly small low profile rose, most I've seen seem too big!

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Steve Jones wrote:

Hmm. Pretty well any 'replacement' light fitting relies on the loop in
loop out and switch connections being on the 'other' side of the
ceiling, so not readily available for a quick inspection. If this
doesn't meet regs, why are they on sale?



But can you not simply remove the fitting and get access to all the
connections?


The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the new
fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.


I push choco blocks inisde the walls and ceilings.

As long as they are done properly, there is no real alternative to
making a neat connection.

I use junction boxes where I can, but thats not everywhere...

Or crimps inide plaster.

I know someone who now has a 13A socket in a most pointless place after
drilling through a cable...

I had a hallway with 2 adjacent single sockets so that the ring could extend
up into the loft for a few sockets and down for an additional double socket
near the ceiling next to a built in bunk bed.

Fitting the second socket, which was lying about in a box anyway was quicker
than buying a ratchet crimper, which I didn't have with me.

Christian.

In article ,
Googolplex wrote:
I discovered that modern halogen fittings with integral transformer
often have a very deep fitting. Just enough room to be able to unwire
and remove the old lampholder from the flex from the ceiling rose, wire
this to the terminals on the new fitting, then fix new fitting onto the
ceiling with the old ceiling rose covered up by the fitting itself!

Luckily it was a fairly small low profile rose, most I've seen seem too
big!

Assuming the fixing screws don't want to go through the ceiling rose?

--
*42.7% of statistics are made up. Sorry, that should read 47.2% *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I push choco blocks inisde the walls and ceilings.

As long as they are done properly, there is no real alternative to
making a neat connection.

While this is common, it's not to be recommended. There should be two
layers of insulation - hence a JB. Suppose you could use heat shrink
sleeving or tape etc.

I use junction boxes where I can, but thats not everywhere...

Or crimps inide plaster.

Personally, I'd not have any joint inside plaster. I'd replace the entire
cable. But then most of my walls are stud types so easy to wire.

--
*Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The only tidy way I've found of doing these sort of fittings is to move
the loop in ceiling rose into the ceiling void and run flex from that to
the fitting. Or use a junction box. A series of choc blocks inside the
new fitting - or pushed up into the hole - fills me with horror.


I push choco blocks inisde the walls and ceilings.

As long as they are done properly, there is no real alternative to
making a neat connection.

I use junction boxes where I can, but thats not everywhere...

You can get dinky little 20A(?) junction boxes; 4 terminals inside a
circular box about 50 mm diameter. They're particularly useful for
wiring downlighters because you can bung them up the ~70mm hole you've
just cut in the ceiling to take the fitting.

David