Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

Shaffer wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


No way to tell without opening up the spot and looking, to see what the
nail did. It is probably safe, if it hasn't caught fire already, but if
it nicked a wire instead of just shorting it, it could overheat at that
spot at some point.

--
aem sends...

Thanks guys.

He was using a nail gun. The moulding was top of wall against the ceiling.
1920's house. No dry wall in rest of house, so I doubt any in kitchen.
This was relayed to me by wifey. I was at work.
What's wiring doing up there anyways?



"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"Shaffer" wrote in
:

Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?




My first thought is why did he hit it with a small nail? When you say
small you mean short? Finish nails from a nail gun are small as in narrow
but can be 2.5" long.

In theory, wires should be running through the middle of studs 1.75"
back. That + 1/2" drywall is 2.25. Then add in molding thickness.

Wiring that is run too close to edge of stud should have a metal plate.
But that does nothing if the wiring is close to the inside of the drywall
between the studs.

Where did it happen? In the field of a wall, top near ceiling, near
floor?

"Shaffer" wrote in
:

Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?




My first thought is why did he hit it with a small nail? When you say
small you mean short? Finish nails from a nail gun are small as in narrow
but can be 2.5" long.

In theory, wires should be running through the middle of studs 1.75"
back. That + 1/2" drywall is 2.25. Then add in molding thickness.

Wiring that is run too close to edge of stud should have a metal plate.
But that does nothing if the wiring is close to the inside of the drywall
between the studs.

Where did it happen? In the field of a wall, top near ceiling, near
floor?

"Shaffer" wrote in
:

Thanks guys.

He was using a nail gun. The moulding was top of wall against the
ceiling. 1920's house. No dry wall in rest of house, so I doubt any
in kitchen. This was relayed to me by wifey. I was at work.
What's wiring doing up there anyways?



"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"Shaffer" wrote in
:

Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?




My first thought is why did he hit it with a small nail? When you say
small you mean short? Finish nails from a nail gun are small as in
narrow but can be 2.5" long.

In theory, wires should be running through the middle of studs 1.75"
back. That + 1/2" drywall is 2.25. Then add in molding thickness.

Wiring that is run too close to edge of stud should have a metal
plate. But that does nothing if the wiring is close to the inside of
the drywall between the studs.

Where did it happen? In the field of a wall, top near ceiling, near
floor?




I'm not familiar with 1920's houses but witing will typically run
through the attic or between 1st & 2nd floors, go through the top plate
of the wall and down the stud to the device.



http://media.photobucket.com/image/h...C04050.jpg?o=7

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs...8218fc40ab.jpg

http://www.etchweb.net/home/images/house-wiring.jpg

On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 22:52:34 -0400, "Shaffer" wrote:

Thanks guys.

He was using a nail gun. The moulding was top of wall against the ceiling.
1920's house. No dry wall in rest of house, so I doubt any in kitchen.
This was relayed to me by wifey. I was at work.

If you have a wife, have her lie awake worrying about fire. You need
your sleep.

What's wiring doing up there anyways?



"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"Shaffer" wrote in
:

Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?




My first thought is why did he hit it with a small nail? When you say
small you mean short? Finish nails from a nail gun are small as in narrow
but can be 2.5" long.

In theory, wires should be running through the middle of studs 1.75"
back. That + 1/2" drywall is 2.25. Then add in molding thickness.

Wiring that is run too close to edge of stud should have a metal plate.
But that does nothing if the wiring is close to the inside of the drywall
between the studs.

Where did it happen? In the field of a wall, top near ceiling, near
floor?

On Oct 12, 7:33*pm, "Shaffer" wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. *Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. *Flipped
the breaker back on. *Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?



Post some photos of the location; overall shots & some closeups


I own a 1930 house & have taken apart, restored / rebuilt most of
it.

Was the original K&T (knob & tube) replaced? Did some do it
correctly or just jury rig in some Romex (NM)?

I think I ansered my own questions...I think it would be rather
difficult to short a K&T run with a single brad. SO it must be
rewired with romex such that a single brad shot would create a short.

Shorting a knob & tube system with a nail gun fired finishing nail or
brad would be kinda hard to do if:
1) the proper length fastener was used
2) wires were / are properly placed.

I wouldn't "worry" about it but I'd make a mental (or written) note of
it, so when (if) problems happen oyu can know where to look.


How big (diameter & length) was the fastener? I hope he picked a
resonably sized nail otherwise he's kinda the cause of this mishap.

Brads & finishing nails don't need much more than 1" penetration into
the "true" receiving member.....the timber beyond the drywall.

For a 1/16" (16 gage) brad ....3/4" penetration is a bit small, 1
1/2" is a bit too much .....1" or so it just about right.

So when picking fastener length I shoot for about 16 fastener
diameters into the receiving member (not including the drywal) but I
also consider the over penetration issues on plumbing & wiring. I
tend to pick the shortest nail that will do the job

cheers
Bob

" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him take a
look.

On Oct 13, 7:38�am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. �Must have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. �Flipped
the breaker back on. �Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. �This is the kind of thing that will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. �By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. �To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard..

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him take a
look.


EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard

On Oct 13, 7:44*am, bob haller wrote:
On Oct 13, 7:38 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:





" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him take a
look.

EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

If it shorts out again, it should blow the breaker again.
Me, I'd want to take the area apart, and separate, and tape
the wires. But, that's just me. From where I sit, it appears
a very low risk of further problems.

This does not constitute legal or contractor advise, and I
accept no liability for your decision.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Shaffer" wrote in message
...
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the
kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in
elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

On Oct 13, 8:01*am, wrote:
On Oct 13, 7:44*am, bob haller wrote:



On Oct 13, 7:38 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him take a
look.

EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with John and Bob. * I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. *As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

R

On Oct 12, 9:33*pm, "Shaffer" wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. *Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. *Flipped
the breaker back on. *Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

I will bet if he knew you would not hold him responsible he would say
fix it, just like he would in his own house. And in the same line of
thought, he doesnt care what he hides from you.

"Shaffer" wrote in message
...
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


Chances are nothing will happen but it's possible you could have a short
there. It happened to me. A problem could occur if you have two appliances
plugged into the same circuit and they complete the circuit. If you had two
guitar players or mics in the same circuit and the musicians touched it
could be deadly. You need to open the wall up. Pull the wire out. Cut it and
splice it back together in a control box. Sorry for the bad news but there
is a potential problem. BTW: the same thing happened to me. I destroyed a
computer when I plugged it into a printer on a different outlet.

BTW: ....get an electrician to fix it.

I read Christopher Young's post and got nervous. :-)

short = connection that's not supposed to be connected
Example: The nail caused a short betwen the hot and neutral.

open = connection that's supposed be there, but isn't.
Example: The nail broke the wire, and now the wire is open.

Was your computer fried from an open neutral? So the power
was going from black to black, instead of returning through
the open neutral wire?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Master Betty" wrote in message
...


Chances are nothing will happen but it's possible you could
have a short
there. It happened to me. A problem could occur if you have
two appliances
plugged into the same circuit and they complete the circuit.
If you had two
guitar players or mics in the same circuit and the musicians
touched it
could be deadly. You need to open the wall up. Pull the wire
out. Cut it and
splice it back together in a control box. Sorry for the bad
news but there
is a potential problem. BTW: the same thing happened to me.
I destroyed a
computer when I plugged it into a printer on a different
outlet.

"Master Betty" wrote in message
...
BTW: ....get an electrician to fix it.

I read Christopher Young's post and got nervous. :-)

And I would assume that a good electrician could just run a new wire from
the attic down the wall to the outlet or whatever, disconnecting the old
wire. A lot neater than the messy job of opening the wall and repatching.

Tom G.

On Oct 13, 10:16*am, "Tom G" wrote:
"Master Betty" wrote in message

... BTW: ....get an electrician to fix it.

I read Christopher Young's post and got nervous. :-)

And I would assume that a good electrician could just run a new wire from
the attic down the wall to the outlet or whatever, disconnecting the old
wire. *A lot neater than the messy job of opening the wall and repatching.

Tom G.

"And I would assume that a good electrician could just run a new
wire "

Of course, that's *after* assuming that the wire in question is
nothing more than a point to point run, with access to both endpoints.

In a house that old, with "upgrades" that may not have used best
practices, that wire could run between 2 concealed junction boxes or
whatever.

We can already assume that things weren't done to code since the wire
is assumed to have been too close to the surface, so who knows what
else was done "wrong".

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 8:01 am, wrote:
On Oct 13, 7:44 am, bob haller wrote:



On Oct 13, 7:38 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the
years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that
will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into
the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably
nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and
if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it
touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will
become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him
take a
look.

EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

R

Say WHAT?

Steve

"Shaffer" wrote in message
...
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

It's your life, what do you think? If it was me, I'd have a small section
removed and be 100% sure. And I'd call the contractor back and ask if he
would do it. He obviously isn't very good, or he would have fixed his own
mistake already.

Steve

On Oct 13, 10:40*am, "SteveB" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. *Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. *He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.


Say WHAT?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. If you have a question,
ask it.

R

Master Betty wrote:
"Shaffer" wrote in message
...
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


Chances are nothing will happen but it's possible you could have a short
there. It happened to me. A problem could occur if you have two appliances
plugged into the same circuit and they complete the circuit. If you had two
guitar players or mics in the same circuit and the musicians touched it
could be deadly. You need to open the wall up. Pull the wire out. Cut it and
splice it back together in a control box. Sorry for the bad news but there
is a potential problem. BTW: the same thing happened to me. I destroyed a
computer when I plugged it into a printer on a different outlet.



We had damaged wiring in our condo when the upstairs neighbor nailed
flooring through the conduit. The guy seemed to play dumb, denied using
power nailer. There were two breaker trips while nailing, but the power
was on when the breaker was reset. Third time was the charm - no power
after resetting the breaker. To make a long story short, the final nail
caused the copper wire to burn through entirely. After the wire on the
circuit was replaced, we got the old wire to keep for posterity. There
were numerous nicks in the insulation that exposed bare copper. Some of
the nicks also had black char marks around them on the insulation. Our
condo board, as usual, got ****y about paying and we had two
electricians involved. The electrician who did the final work said that
the conduit was too close to the floor above and was a code violation.

FWIW, isn't it normal to nail molding to the studs? Any reason not to?
Don't know the best practice on that, but a conversation with the
contractor might convince him to open the wall and make the needed
repair to the wall if wiring is bad.

On Oct 13, 7:40*am, "SteveB" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

...
On Oct 13, 8:01 am, wrote:



On Oct 13, 7:44 am, bob haller wrote:

On Oct 13, 7:38 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the
years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that
will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into
the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably
nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and
if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it
touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will
become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him
take a
look.

EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. *Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. *He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

R

Say WHAT?

Steve

Seems clear to me......a reasonable statement of the "latent and
concealed conditions" concept that has be the "at issue" in 100's if
not 1000's of court cases.

Contractors are not expected to have x-ray vision but engineers are
supposed to be able to see into the future.

If the contract used a reasonably sized fastener and he reasonably
placed it and it hits a hidden wire that itself was poorly placed then
he is not at fault.

But if he used a grossly inappropriately sized fastener or placed on
poorly...then he is at fault.

Just an application of the legal concept of "a prudent
man" .....which btw seems to have died an untimely death back in 70's
when stupidity took took over as the reigning concept in jury
decisions.

cheers
Bob

"Tom G" wrote in message
...

"Master Betty" wrote in message
...
BTW: ....get an electrician to fix it.

I read Christopher Young's post and got nervous. :-)

And I would assume that a good electrician could just run a new wire from
the attic down the wall to the outlet or whatever, disconnecting the old
wire. A lot neater than the messy job of opening the wall and repatching.

Tom G.


Mine was pretty easy to fix. But since I didn't have an attic.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
short = connection that's not supposed to be connected
Example: The nail caused a short betwen the hot and neutral.

open = connection that's supposed be there, but isn't.
Example: The nail broke the wire, and now the wire is open.

Was your computer fried from an open neutral? So the power
was going from black to black, instead of returning through
the open neutral wire?



Don't remember but as I recall I screwed in too deep and got the short on
the drill I was using. I'm assuming 'short' because it sparked. It didn't
just die. I backed the screw out and thought it would be ok. Then I plugged
in my computer and got a spark enough to fry the board. Man did that suck.
But being a musician I figured I was lucky it was my computer.

When I opened up the wall there was a pretty good sized black spot on the
wire. Something caused it to fry the computer/printer ~ ground or neutral
caused it to short. I assume. Maybe you can dx from my description.

Was an easy but expensive. I just opened up a small hole and installed a
control box where it shorted. I actually did it on another spot in the
ceiling too.

Tom G wrote:
"Master Betty" wrote in message
...
BTW: ....get an electrician to fix it.

I read Christopher Young's post and got nervous. :-)

And I would assume that a good electrician could just run a new wire from
the attic down the wall to the outlet or whatever, disconnecting the old
wire. A lot neater than the messy job of opening the wall and repatching.

Tom G.

Not to mention that it isn't code to patch it unless you leave access to
the new junction box.

On Oct 13, 8:43*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
If it shorts out again, it should blow the breaker again.
Me, I'd want to take the area apart, and separate, and tape
the wires. But, that's just me. From where I sit, it appears
a very low risk of further problems.

The nail could have partially severed one of the conductors. In that
happened, he now could have 18 gauge wire instead of 12. Put enough
load on it and it gets hot, melts, arcs and if something flamable is
nearby, which isn't that unusual in an old house, he could have a
fire.




This does not constitute legal or contractor advise, and I
accept no liability for your decision.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Shaffer" wrote in message

...
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the
kitchen. *Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in
elsewhere. *Flipped
the breaker back on. *Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

On Oct 13, 10:42*am, "SteveB" wrote:
"Shaffer" wrote in message

...

Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. *Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. *Flipped
the breaker back on. *Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

It's your life, what do you think? *If it was me, I'd have a small section
removed and be 100% sure. *And I'd call the contractor back and ask if he
would do it. *He obviously isn't very good, or he would have fixed his own
mistake already.

Steve

As others have said, I don't see in any way that the contractor is
responsible to fix his "mistake". What exactly is the mistake he is
supposed to have made? Unless he used an extaordinarily long nail,
he isn't liable for wiring that was run too close to the surface
without a plate to protect it.

He clearly should have told the homeowner that it should be inspected
and fixed. But that is the homeowner's problem and expense. Plus,
last time I checked, a carpenter is licensed to do electrical work.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 10:42 am, "SteveB" wrote:
"Shaffer" wrote in message

...

Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

It's your life, what do you think? If it was me, I'd have a small section
removed and be 100% sure. And I'd call the contractor back and ask if he
would do it. He obviously isn't very good, or he would have fixed his own
mistake already.

Steve

As others have said, I don't see in any way that the contractor is
responsible to fix his "mistake". What exactly is the mistake he is
supposed to have made? Unless he used an extaordinarily long nail,
he isn't liable for wiring that was run too close to the surface
without a plate to protect it.

He clearly should have told the homeowner that it should be inspected
and fixed. But that is the homeowner's problem and expense. Plus,
last time I checked, a carpenter is licensed to do electrical work.

Who said anything about a "contractor" ???..The OP said he had "a guy come
over to help put up some moulding." Hardly sounds like a contractor..IMHO...
If the OP feels it should be checked he should do it or call an
electrician....I'm gonna have a "guy" (my dad) come over and help me reframe
3 window openings and install new windows...If something goes wrong , I
should hold him accountable ?? LOL.....

On Oct 12, 10:33*pm, "Shaffer" wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. *Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. *Flipped
the breaker back on. *Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

What the contractor should have done is stop work and have you call in
an electrician to see what was going on. It is not his fault the wire
was there. You would be stuck with the electricians bill and delays
caused to carpenter unless you can find someone else to blame it on.
If your house burns down on account of it he is still not responsible
because he is not an electrician and he let you know about the problem
and now it is documented that you were aware and concerned but did
nothing so far.

Jimmie. .

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 12, 10:33 pm, "Shaffer" wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

What the contractor should have done is stop work and have you call in
an electrician to see what was going on. It is not his fault the wire
was there. You would be stuck with the electricians bill and delays
caused to carpenter unless you can find someone else to blame it on.
If your house burns down on account of it he is still not responsible
because he is not an electrician and he let you know about the problem
and now it is documented that you were aware and concerned but did
nothing so far.

Jimmie. .

==========

I "think"....but could be completely wrong....When the contractor said
"Don't worry about it." he left himself open to potential liability.

As far a documented....He didn't say anything about documentation....unless
you're talking about this.

Regardless, if it were me, I'd find another contractor.

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:51:34 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 13, 8:01Â*am, wrote:
On Oct 13, 7:44Â*am, bob haller wrote:



On Oct 13, 7:38 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him take a
look.

EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with John and Bob. Â* I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. Â*As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

R
Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.

There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 10:40 am, "SteveB" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.


Say WHAT?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. If you have a question,
ask it.

R

Your statement that the owner would bear the responsibility for this act
befuddles me. The fact is that no matter what the location of the wire, the
wire was in good shape before the contractor did whatever he did. At the
least, he should have offered to open up a small area just to be safe. He
did not even do that, and gave the person, a layman, advice from an expert
professional that nothing was wrong, and it was safe, which may or may not
be the case. In my opinion, that was not a professional thing to do, and a
reasonable person would have cause to be concerned.

To the OP: Call your local Contractor's Board and the Fire Department and
see what they say. Find out if this man is in fact a licensed contractor.
I believe in your original question, you stated he was. If he is, they will
mediate, and bring on a fair solution. If someone else has to fix this and
open it up for inspection, it goes on him or his surety bond. They may be
interested in the hijinks of this fellow, who may or may not be licensed.
I, like you, would be concerned until I had a final impartial 100% sure
answer. What you got was not the actions and behavior of a "professional
contractor." And now you are living under stress from a potentially deadly
situation.

Steve, a retired contractor

SteveB wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Oct 13, 10:40 am, "SteveB" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.


Say WHAT?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. If you have a question,
ask it.

R

Your statement that the owner would bear the responsibility for this
act befuddles me. The fact is that no matter what the location of
the wire, the wire was in good shape before the contractor did
whatever he did. At the least, he should have offered to open up a
small area just to be safe. He did not even do that, and gave the
person, a layman, advice from an expert professional that nothing was
wrong, and it was safe, which may or may not be the case. In my
opinion, that was not a professional thing to do, and a reasonable
person would have cause to be concerned.
To the OP: Call your local Contractor's Board and the Fire
Department and see what they say. Find out if this man is in fact a
licensed contractor. I believe in your original question, you stated
he was. If he is, they will mediate, and bring on a fair solution. If
someone else has to fix this and open it up for inspection, it
goes on him or his surety bond. They may be interested in the
hijinks of this fellow, who may or may not be licensed. I, like you,
would be concerned until I had a final impartial 100% sure answer. What
you got was not the actions and behavior of a "professional
contractor." And now you are living under stress from a potentially
deadly situation.
Steve, a retired contractor

It's said that the entire corpus of contract law theory can be mastered by
studying: The Fence, The Bull, and The Pit.

Here, we have a case of "The Pit," that is, a hidden hazard.

Some would argue that it is the responsibility of the owner to know, and
inform others, about this sort of thing. While a person with access may
exercise normal diligence, he cannot be expected to know all the problems.
If, for example, a visitor fell though a rotten porch step, liability would
lie with the owner of the porch. If, in this case, the carpenter shot a nail
into a live wire and was electrocuted, most, if not all, of the fault would
with the homeowner.

Admittedly, arguments can be made on either side. If I were on a jury,
however, I'd vote with the carpenter.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hb1sp3
:

If it shorts out again, it should blow the breaker again.
Me, I'd want to take the area apart, and separate, and tape
the wires. But, that's just me. From where I sit, it appears
a very low risk of further problems.

This does not constitute legal or contractor advise, and I
accept no liability for your decision.



and I
accept no liability for your decision.


Don't worry. The fact that he read it on the internet wouldn't carry much
weight anyway. Doubt if you'll be getting a subpoena :-)

Shaffer wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


Hi,
Did the nail look clean, no serious sign of burn or spark?

writes:
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:51:34 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 13, 8:01*am, wrote:
On Oct 13, 7:44*am, bob haller wrote:



On Oct 13, 7:38 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have

hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?

*In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the years
it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing that will
surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably nicked.
The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if it
is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.

For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him take a
look.

EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
the other side.

its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with John and Bob. * I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. *As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

R
Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.

- Do you know any (professional) carpenter who uses a stud finder before
every shooting every nail? Maybe they should but it's not something
I have seen...

- Also, the AC detector is hardly failsafe, especially behind 1920's
era plaster & lathe. Yes, it *may* detect a wire that is against the
surface 1/2" sheetrock but if it is behind 1/2" (or more) plaster
and 1/2 of lathe and maybe another 1/2-1" of stud then it likely
won't detect it. (And in houses with horsehair plaster you do need
longer nails since you need to penetrate the plaster and the lathe
to get to the stud)



There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.

wrote in message
...
Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.

There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.

I disagree with this.

The contractor was putting up molding on the ceiling. Any wires should be
in the middle of the plate approximately 2 1/4" from the face of the plaster
or wall board. If the trim was 3/8", then you would have to be using a
pretty long nail to hit any wires that one might reasonably expect.


--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

wrote in message
...

FWIW, isn't it normal to nail molding to the studs? Any reason not to?

Normally, there is a top plate (think sideways stud) along the top of a
wall, so you can land a nail anywhere along the path of the trim molding and
hit wood



Don't know the best practice on that, but a conversation with the
contractor might convince him to open the wall and make the needed
repair to the wall if wiring is bad.

As others have pointed out there is a real threat here that a fire could be
started from a nicked wire. I think however the contractors responsibility
ends on informing the owner as he could not reasonably expected a wire in
that location,


--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
1] Depth of gene pool
2] Position on the food chain.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Shaffer wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must
have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


Hi,
Did the nail look clean, no serious sign of burn or spark?

First off the nail made electrical contact between the hot conductor and the
neutral or some sort of ground. We know this because the breaker blew.

There is no easy way to determine the damage to the conductor with out
inspecting it, and a very great risk of fire for not inspecting for damage.

A no brainer. Fix it.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.