On Oct 13, 6:38*pm, "SteveB" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

Say WHAT?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. *If you have a question,
ask it.

R

Your statement that the owner would bear the responsibility for this act
befuddles me. *The fact is that no matter what the location of the wire, the
wire was in good shape before the contractor did whatever he did. *At the
least, he should have offered to open up a small area just to be safe. *He
did not even do that, and gave the person, a layman, advice from an expert
professional that nothing was wrong, and it was safe, which may or may not
be the case. *In my opinion, that was not a professional thing to do, and a
reasonable person would have cause to be concerned.

You are confusing two different issues.
1). The contractor saying, "Don't worry." is a cavalier attitude and
is scary. You'll get no argument from me that the guy behaved badly
after shorting the wire, it certainly is not professional behavior,
and a reasonable person should definitely be concerned in such an
event.
2). The wire being in an unusual location is a "latent and concealed
condition". The Owner did not know about it, the contractor did not
know about it. It is the Owner's house.

Look at it another way. This is how it _should_ have worked.
The contractor is legit, and the homeowner has a signed contract. The
contract has the standard latent and concealed condition clause. The
contractor hits the wire and it shorts out. The contractor stops work
and informs the Owner. The Owner calls in an electrician to open the
wall and fix the wire. You can't have a concealed electrical junction
box, and the wire won't magically grow a foot so you can cut it and
have the required wire length inside the box anyway, so rewiring is in
order (unless everybody is cutting corners). The contractor would
charge the Owner for the delay, unless he's in a good mood or has
other things to work on, and for patching the wall/ceiling the
electrician opened up. Then it's back to installing trim.

That is contracting and that is the textbook way it should work.
Obviously it doesn't always work that way on smaller jobs, with
unlicensed/hack contractors and without contracts. It does not change
the fact that the Owner is on the hook for something the contractor
would not reasonably expect to encounter. Since code requires wiring
to be a certain distance back from the face of the framing, any
typical nail used in attaching trim shouldn't have been long enough to
reach the wire if it were in the correct location.

To the OP: *Call your local Contractor's Board and the Fire Department and
see what they say. *Find out if this man is in fact a licensed contractor.
I believe in your original question, you stated he was. *If he is, they will
mediate, and bring on a fair solution. *If someone else has to fix this and
open it up for inspection, it goes on him or his surety bond. *They may be
interested in the hijinks of this fellow, who may or may not be licensed.
I, like you, would be concerned until I had a final impartial 100% sure
answer. *What you got was not the actions and behavior of a "professional
contractor." *And now you are living under stress from a potentially deadly
situation.

Steve, a retired contractor

I don't know if you should be fanning the flames of paranoia with an
already admitted spooked homeowner. They should be concerned, and
they should get it corrected sooner rather than later, but there's
little benefit in talking about deadly situations.

The OP mentioned getting a guy in to help with the trim. I am using
the word contractor, though he may not be anything more than an
unlicensed handyman, or a "skilled" neighbor. There are few
homeowners who are totally oblivious to licensing issues. The
decision to hire a guy without checking on their qualifications,
licensing and insurance is usually made based on the guy's price being
good, he's available, and, hell, what could go wrong with putting up a
little trim? There's not a lot of liability like he'd fall off the
roof, right? This situation should help clarify the error of such
thinking.

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails. More likely the wire was either
set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.

R

Shaffer wrote:
Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. Must have
hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere. Flipped
the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.

Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.

Is it?


better dig it out and inspect. I'm a wonderin' why in the world a wire
would be so close to the surface as to get hit by a trim nail.

s

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

Say WHAT?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. If you have a question,
ask it.

R

Your statement that the owner would bear the responsibility for this act
befuddles me. The fact is that no matter what the location of the wire,
the
wire was in good shape before the contractor did whatever he did. At the
least, he should have offered to open up a small area just to be safe. He
did not even do that, and gave the person, a layman, advice from an expert
professional that nothing was wrong, and it was safe, which may or may not
be the case. In my opinion, that was not a professional thing to do, and a
reasonable person would have cause to be concerned.

You are confusing two different issues.
1). The contractor saying, "Don't worry." is a cavalier attitude and
is scary. You'll get no argument from me that the guy behaved badly
after shorting the wire, it certainly is not professional behavior,
and a reasonable person should definitely be concerned in such an
event.
2). The wire being in an unusual location is a "latent and concealed
condition". The Owner did not know about it, the contractor did not
know about it. It is the Owner's house.

Look at it another way. This is how it _should_ have worked.
The contractor is legit, and the homeowner has a signed contract. The
contract has the standard latent and concealed condition clause. The
contractor hits the wire and it shorts out. The contractor stops work
and informs the Owner. The Owner calls in an electrician to open the
wall and fix the wire. You can't have a concealed electrical junction
box, and the wire won't magically grow a foot so you can cut it and
have the required wire length inside the box anyway, so rewiring is in
order (unless everybody is cutting corners). The contractor would
charge the Owner for the delay, unless he's in a good mood or has
other things to work on, and for patching the wall/ceiling the
electrician opened up. Then it's back to installing trim.

That is contracting and that is the textbook way it should work.
Obviously it doesn't always work that way on smaller jobs, with
unlicensed/hack contractors and without contracts. It does not change
the fact that the Owner is on the hook for something the contractor
would not reasonably expect to encounter. Since code requires wiring
to be a certain distance back from the face of the framing, any
typical nail used in attaching trim shouldn't have been long enough to
reach the wire if it were in the correct location.

To the OP: Call your local Contractor's Board and the Fire Department and
see what they say. Find out if this man is in fact a licensed contractor.
I believe in your original question, you stated he was. If he is, they
will
mediate, and bring on a fair solution. If someone else has to fix this and
open it up for inspection, it goes on him or his surety bond. They may be
interested in the hijinks of this fellow, who may or may not be licensed.
I, like you, would be concerned until I had a final impartial 100% sure
answer. What you got was not the actions and behavior of a "professional
contractor." And now you are living under stress from a potentially deadly
situation.

Steve, a retired contractor

I don't know if you should be fanning the flames of paranoia with an
already admitted spooked homeowner. They should be concerned, and
they should get it corrected sooner rather than later, but there's
little benefit in talking about deadly situations.

The OP mentioned getting a guy in to help with the trim. I am using
the word contractor, though he may not be anything more than an
unlicensed handyman, or a "skilled" neighbor. There are few
homeowners who are totally oblivious to licensing issues. The
decision to hire a guy without checking on their qualifications,
licensing and insurance is usually made based on the guy's price being
good, he's available, and, hell, what could go wrong with putting up a
little trim? There's not a lot of liability like he'd fall off the
roof, right? This situation should help clarify the error of such
thinking.

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails.

"More likely the wire was either set into notches, or just draped or stapled
up in the soffit."


*I worked on a kitchen remodel back in march. It was a total gut job.
While adding one additional recessed light to existing ones that were
installed by a previous homeowner I found a romex cable running up from a
switch that was wedged between the drywall and the top plate with no notch
and no protection. I drilled a hole and ran it through the plate.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 08:11:22 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 13, 6:38Â*pm, "SteveB" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
aren't wires too close to the surface.

If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
basically the owner's.

Say WHAT?

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Â*If you have a question,
ask it.

R

Your statement that the owner would bear the responsibility for this act
befuddles me. Â*The fact is that no matter what the location of the wire, the
wire was in good shape before the contractor did whatever he did. Â*At the
least, he should have offered to open up a small area just to be safe. Â*He
did not even do that, and gave the person, a layman, advice from an expert
professional that nothing was wrong, and it was safe, which may or may not
be the case. Â*In my opinion, that was not a professional thing to do, and a
reasonable person would have cause to be concerned.

You are confusing two different issues.
1). The contractor saying, "Don't worry." is a cavalier attitude and
is scary. You'll get no argument from me that the guy behaved badly
after shorting the wire, it certainly is not professional behavior,
and a reasonable person should definitely be concerned in such an
event.
2). The wire being in an unusual location is a "latent and concealed
condition". The Owner did not know about it, the contractor did not
know about it. It is the Owner's house.

Look at it another way. This is how it _should_ have worked.
The contractor is legit, and the homeowner has a signed contract. The
contract has the standard latent and concealed condition clause. The
contractor hits the wire and it shorts out. The contractor stops work
and informs the Owner. The Owner calls in an electrician to open the
wall and fix the wire. You can't have a concealed electrical junction
box, and the wire won't magically grow a foot so you can cut it and
have the required wire length inside the box anyway, so rewiring is in
order (unless everybody is cutting corners). The contractor would
charge the Owner for the delay, unless he's in a good mood or has
other things to work on, and for patching the wall/ceiling the
electrician opened up. Then it's back to installing trim.

That is contracting and that is the textbook way it should work.
Obviously it doesn't always work that way on smaller jobs, with
unlicensed/hack contractors and without contracts. It does not change
the fact that the Owner is on the hook for something the contractor
would not reasonably expect to encounter. Since code requires wiring
to be a certain distance back from the face of the framing, any
typical nail used in attaching trim shouldn't have been long enough to
reach the wire if it were in the correct location.

To the OP: Â*Call your local Contractor's Board and the Fire Department and
see what they say. Â*Find out if this man is in fact a licensed contractor.
I believe in your original question, you stated he was. Â*If he is, they will
mediate, and bring on a fair solution. Â*If someone else has to fix this and
open it up for inspection, it goes on him or his surety bond. Â*They may be
interested in the hijinks of this fellow, who may or may not be licensed.
I, like you, would be concerned until I had a final impartial 100% sure
answer. Â*What you got was not the actions and behavior of a "professional
contractor." Â*And now you are living under stress from a potentially deadly
situation.

Steve, a retired contractor

I don't know if you should be fanning the flames of paranoia with an
already admitted spooked homeowner. They should be concerned, and
they should get it corrected sooner rather than later, but there's
little benefit in talking about deadly situations.

The OP mentioned getting a guy in to help with the trim. I am using
the word contractor, though he may not be anything more than an
unlicensed handyman, or a "skilled" neighbor. There are few
homeowners who are totally oblivious to licensing issues. The
decision to hire a guy without checking on their qualifications,
licensing and insurance is usually made based on the guy's price being
good, he's available, and, hell, what could go wrong with putting up a
little trim? There's not a lot of liability like he'd fall off the
roof, right? This situation should help clarify the error of such
thinking.

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails. More likely the wire was either
set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.

R
And the "contractor" would still have known there was a possibility of
hitting wire if he had used his scanner first. The wire may not have
been running along the plate at all - it may (and most likely was)
have been coming THROUGH the plate to go down to a switch or
receptacle in the wall - and the nail ANYWHERE but where he put ir
would have been a total non issue.

Knowing there was a live wire in the immediate area, the nail would
have been moved 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and no problem..

When working in older homes in particular, you ASSUME there is a wire
there untill you prove to your satisfaction there is none. With
today's low-cost technology readily available there is NO EXCUSE for
a contractor or a handyman to EVER put a nail , a drill, or a saw into
a live wire.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:20:21 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.

There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.

I disagree with this.

The contractor was putting up molding on the ceiling. Any wires should be
in the middle of the plate approximately 2 1/4" from the face of the plaster
or wall board. If the trim was 3/8", then you would have to be using a
pretty long nail to hit any wires that one might reasonably expect.


And we still don't know how long the nail was, do we???

Lots of guys use 2 1/2 in ardox finish nails to install cove molding.
And we don't KNOW the wire was inside a 2X4. It may have been running
down the side of the stud, strapped on properly. With a power nailer,
if he missed the stud it could quite concievably puncture the wire.
Without a stud finder he has no idea if he's nailing into a stud or
not.

On Oct 14, 6:01*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 "Roger Shoaf" wrote:
wrote in message

Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.

There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.

I disagree with this.

The contractor was putting up molding on the ceiling. *Any wires should be
in the middle of the plate approximately 2 1/4" from the face of the plaster
or wall board. *If the trim was 3/8", then you would have to be using a
pretty long nail to hit any wires that one might reasonably expect.

And we still don't know how long the nail was, do we???

That was one of the first questions asked, and there was no answer.

Lots of guys use 2 1/2 in ardox finish nails to install cove molding.
And we don't KNOW the wire was inside a 2X4. It may have been running
down the side of the stud, strapped on properly. With a power nailer,
if he missed the stud it could quite concievably puncture the wire.
Without a stud finder he has no idea if he's nailing into a stud or
not.

Right. Carpenters for hundreds of years had no idea how to locate a
stud. Sheesh.

R

On Oct 14, 5:56*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 RicodJour wrote:

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. *As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. *Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails. *More likely the wire was either
set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.


And the "contractor" would still have known there was a possibility of
hitting wire if he had used his scanner first. The wire may not have
been running along the plate at all - it may (and most likely was)
have been coming THROUGH the plate to go down to a switch or
receptacle in the wall - and the nail ANYWHERE but where he put ir
would have been a total non issue.

You're putting another layer of drywall or paneling over an existing
wall. Do you scan the entire room to locate the wires? Do you scan
every stud and joist along its entire length? How long does that
take? What about if there were a pipe in the wall? A wire that
wasn't live until a switch was flicked on?

Contract law is full of cases that were determined based on
"reasonable expectations". Code is full of requirements that dictate
where and how wires should be run. In the vast majority of cases its
not an issue as nothing ever happens - even if the wires are run
incorrectly. You're backtracking and cherry-picking this one example
and using it to make a blanket statement that would suck down a lot of
time with very little benefit. If 100 carpenters didn't scan the
walls, probably one or two would hit a live wire, none if it were run
correctly. So to prevent the one occurrence you want all 100
carpenters to scan all the walls all of the time. Please. Why not
just recommend using construction adhesive to attach the trim? That's
even safer!

Knowing there was a live wire in the immediate area, the nail would
have been moved 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and no problem..

Hey, any hints on who won last week's big game?

The fact of the matter is that someone ran a wire where it shouldn't
have been, or the guy installing the trim used too long of a nail.

When working in older homes in particular, you ASSUME there is a wire
there untill you prove to your satisfaction there is none. With
today's low-cost technology *readily available there is NO EXCUSE for
a contractor or a handyman to EVER put a nail , a drill, or a saw into
a live wire.

I've been swatting nails for 35 years. I've never hit a live wire. I
also have never used a scanner to scan all the surfaces. If I did,
guess who'd be paying for my time? Every job I did I'd have to charge
for that 'extra' service, and it would only pay off in extremely rare
cases. I'd still get paid.

This all goes to risk management. Do you want to pay up front to me,
whether or not there is a problem, or, _if_ there is a problem pay to
fix it? A case could also be made that hitting the wire is doing the
owner a favor by locating a shoddy wiring job.

R

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 14, 5:56Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 RicodJour wrote:

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. Â*As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. Â*Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails. Â*More likely the wire was either
set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.


And the "contractor" would still have known there was a possibility of
hitting wire if he had used his scanner first. The wire may not have
been running along the plate at all - it may (and most likely was)
have been coming THROUGH the plate to go down to a switch or
receptacle in the wall - and the nail ANYWHERE but where he put ir
would have been a total non issue.

You're putting another layer of drywall or paneling over an existing
wall. Do you scan the entire room to locate the wires? Do you scan
every stud and joist along its entire length? How long does that
take? What about if there were a pipe in the wall? A wire that
wasn't live until a switch was flicked on?

Contract law is full of cases that were determined based on
"reasonable expectations". Code is full of requirements that dictate
where and how wires should be run. In the vast majority of cases its
not an issue as nothing ever happens - even if the wires are run
incorrectly. You're backtracking and cherry-picking this one example
and using it to make a blanket statement that would suck down a lot of
time with very little benefit. If 100 carpenters didn't scan the
walls, probably one or two would hit a live wire, none if it were run
correctly. So to prevent the one occurrence you want all 100
carpenters to scan all the walls all of the time. Please. Why not
just recommend using construction adhesive to attach the trim? That's
even safer!

Knowing there was a live wire in the immediate area, the nail would
have been moved 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and no problem..

Hey, any hints on who won last week's big game?

The fact of the matter is that someone ran a wire where it shouldn't
have been, or the guy installing the trim used too long of a nail.

When working in older homes in particular, you ASSUME there is a wire
there untill you prove to your satisfaction there is none. With
today's low-cost technology Â*readily available there is NO EXCUSE for
a contractor or a handyman to EVER put a nail , a drill, or a saw into
a live wire.

I've been swatting nails for 35 years. I've never hit a live wire. I
also have never used a scanner to scan all the surfaces. If I did,
guess who'd be paying for my time? Every job I did I'd have to charge
for that 'extra' service, and it would only pay off in extremely rare
cases. I'd still get paid.

This all goes to risk management. Do you want to pay up front to me,
whether or not there is a problem, or, _if_ there is a problem pay to
fix it? A case could also be made that hitting the wire is doing the
owner a favor by locating a shoddy wiring job.

R
I look at the room and the layout of the electrics and say "where did
they connect that?" and I know whether the wire went up or down (or
both) from a switch or receptacle, and if wires run across between
receptacles through the sruds, and at what height. I also mark where
the studs are - putting in drywall screws where there is no stud does
no good at all. When hanging items I also try to locate hanger nails
in studs whenever possible - and with the studfinder I also know if
there is a metal pipe (or other metal article) in the wall, as well as
the wiriing and the location of the studs.

I then stay away from the location of wires and pipes when driving
screws or nails, and use extreme caution when opening a hole in a wall
where either exists.

Not very productive to cut a hole in a wall to install a box for a
light switch, only to find a forced air duct taking up all the space
either.

Helps to know where the "fire stops" are too, when trying to pull new
wiring into a wall. - and if other wires share the space before
attempting to drill through the "fire stop" to pull in a new wire. The
stud finder lets me know where they are and if they exist. Gives me an
idea how long the job might end up taking.

By "fire stop" I mean the 2X4 nailed in across between 2 studs,
usually between where you can access to feed a wire (whether attic or
basement) and the location of the switch/outlet/box you are trying to
connect to.

So it takes half an hour longer to do the job (or even to quote it if
you are a contractor) - you KNOW what you are up against before it
happens - and believe me - THAT is good.

My Dad was a professional electrician - I worked with him many times
on both new construction and renos - and KNOW that wires are not
always in the center of the stud, and when they aren't they are not
always protected by a "scab plate". If you did the original wiring,
you have control over that. If you didn't, you don't..

I also know that not all electricians are as neat or logical in their
layout as others. My dad was a pro - many are not. If I need to work
in my house or a friend's house I don't just assume everything is as
it should be, or that I'm going to be "lucky"

Now, when you have to break out concrete to do drain work in a
basement, and you don't KNOW where the existing pipes run, That can be
a challenge. Last project I had my plumber look at it and give me his
"best guess" - then we laid out what we figured was a "safe" cut - cut
it with a diamond saw, and carefully broke it out with the Kango,
making sure not to let the chisel get in too deep. Good thing, because
the ABS pipe was NOT where we thought it was. and we could easily have
broken the pipe.

On Oct 14, 10:29*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour



wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:56*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 *RicodJour wrote:

About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. *As Roger
mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. *Nobody except a
blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
them to drill through the (toe)nails. *More likely the wire was either
set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.

And the "contractor" would still have known there was a possibility of
hitting wire if he had used his scanner first. The wire may not have
been running along the plate at all - it may (and most likely was)
have been coming THROUGH the plate to go down to a switch or
receptacle in the wall - and the nail ANYWHERE but where he put ir
would have been a total non issue.

You're putting another layer of drywall or paneling over an existing
wall. *Do you scan the entire room to locate the wires? *Do you scan
every stud and joist along its entire length? *How long does that
take? *What about if there were a pipe in the wall? *A wire that
wasn't live until a switch was flicked on?

Contract law is full of cases that were determined based on
"reasonable expectations". *Code is full of requirements that dictate
where and how wires should be run. *In the vast majority of cases its
not an issue as nothing ever happens - even if the wires are run
incorrectly. *You're backtracking and cherry-picking this one example
and using it to make a blanket statement that would suck down a lot of
time with very little benefit. *If 100 carpenters didn't scan the
walls, probably one or two would hit a live wire, none if it were run
correctly. *So to prevent the one occurrence you want all 100
carpenters to scan all the walls all of the time. *Please. *Why not
just recommend using construction adhesive to attach the trim? *That's
even safer!

Knowing there was a live wire in the immediate area, the nail would
have been moved 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and no problem..

Hey, any hints on who won last week's big game?

The fact of the matter is that someone ran a wire where it shouldn't
have been, or the guy installing the trim used too long of a nail.

When working in older homes in particular, you ASSUME there is a wire
there untill you prove to your satisfaction there is none. With
today's low-cost technology *readily available there is NO EXCUSE for
a contractor or a handyman to EVER put a nail , a drill, or a saw into
a live wire.

I've been swatting nails for 35 years. *I've never hit a live wire. *I
also have never used a scanner to scan all the surfaces. *If I did,
guess who'd be paying for my time? *Every job I did I'd have to charge
for that 'extra' service, and it would only pay off in extremely rare
cases. *I'd still get paid.

This all goes to risk management. *Do you want to pay up front to me,
whether or not there is a problem, or, _if_ there is a problem pay to
fix it? *A case could also be made that hitting the wire is doing the
owner a favor by locating a shoddy wiring job.

R

I look at the room and the layout of the electrics and say "where did
they connect that?" and I know whether the wire went up or down (or
both) from a switch or receptacle, and if wires run across between
receptacles through the sruds, and at what height. I also mark where
the studs are - putting in drywall screws where there is no stud does
no good at all. When hanging items I also try to locate hanger nails
in studs whenever possible - and with the studfinder I also know if
there is a metal pipe (or other metal article) in the wall, as well as
the wiriing and the location of the studs.

I then stay away from the location of wires and pipes when driving
screws or nails, and use extreme caution when opening a hole in a wall
where either exists.

Not very productive to cut a hole in a wall to install a box for a
light switch, only to find a forced air duct taking up all the space
either.

Helps to know where the "fire stops" are too, when trying to pull new
wiring into a wall. - and if other wires share the space before
attempting to drill through the "fire stop" to pull in a new wire. The
stud finder lets me know where they are and if they exist. Gives me an
idea how long the job might end up taking.

By "fire stop" I mean the 2X4 nailed in across between 2 studs,
usually between where you can access to feed a wire (whether attic or
basement) and the location of the switch/outlet/box you are trying to
connect to.

So it takes half an hour longer to do the job *(or even to quote it if
you are a contractor) - you KNOW what you are up against before it
happens - and believe me - THAT is good.

My Dad was a professional electrician - I worked with him many times
on both new construction and renos - and KNOW that wires are not
always in the center of the stud, and when they aren't they are not
always protected by a "scab plate". If you did the original wiring,
you have control over that. If you didn't, you don't..

I also know that not all electricians are as neat or logical in their
layout as others. My dad was a pro - many are not. If I need to work
in my house or a friend's house I don't just assume everything is as
it should be, or that I'm going to be "lucky"

Now, when you have to break out concrete to do drain work in a
basement, and you don't KNOW where the existing pipes run, That can be
a challenge. Last project I had my plumber look at it and give me his
"best guess" - then we laid out what we figured was a "safe" cut - cut
it with a diamond saw, and carefully broke it out with the Kango,
making sure not to let the chisel get in too deep. Good thing, because
the ABS pipe was NOT where we thought it was. and we could easily have
broken the pipe.

That's really my point. Just as someone else was saying in another
thread how a newbie DIYer tries to not poke any holes and makes small
access holes - how that's counterproductive and an actual waste of
time most of the time - I'm constantly evaluating the work I'm doing
for efficiency and risk/reward. I hardly ever use a stud scanner as I
use my other senses to locate the stud - sound and touch. I can hear
and feel how a hammer tapped on a wall changes as it crosses over a
stud. After that the studs are going to be on 16's. I could break
out the scanner and locate every stud, but that won't improve my final
product or increase my speed.

We appear to have some different ways of approaching a project - no
surprise there. I accept that you can't have it all spelled out,
there will always be surprises, and the really odd ones are totally
unavoidable no matter how carefully you think it through. If the
idiot who did the wacky installation did something stupid, it probably
won't be something you can deduce. At a certain point you just have
to jump in, and of course, trust your instincts.

R